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	<title>Comments on: Gulf War Illness</title>
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	<link>http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=295</link>
	<description>Exploring issues and controversies in the relationship between science and medicine</description>
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		<title>By: MedsVsTherapy</title>
		<link>http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=295&#038;cpage=1#comment-10908</link>
		<dc:creator>MedsVsTherapy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Dec 2008 18:40:40 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Qetzal- thanks. i will check it out when i have time to look this over more closely.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Qetzal- thanks. i will check it out when i have time to look this over more closely.</p>
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		<title>By: bonedoc</title>
		<link>http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=295&#038;cpage=1#comment-10878</link>
		<dc:creator>bonedoc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Nov 2008 19:13:53 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>There is an important difference between the political and sociological decisions that must be made with respect to healthcare and those made with respect to the science of medicine. Patients are often compelled to show that their symptoms or illness was caused by another in order to be eligible for diagnosis and treatment.

From a political and sociological point of view I believe it is the right thing to do to give veterans the benefit of the doubt and to accept the idea that the symptoms and illnesses that they label as Gulf War syndrome are worthy of evaluation and treatment. At minimum on that basis, I believe it is correct to provide medical care with respect to those complaints. In fact, I would go further. I have recommended that veterans deserve full medical coverage from their government without requiring the patient to prove a service connection first. (I am an orthopaedic surgeon employed by the Veterans Administration). Anyone who serves in the armed services has the potential to be put in harms way when the government determines that it is in the country&#039;s best interest. Some pay a very high price for their service. I construe this willingness to be put in harms way as part of a social contract with the government who then has the obligation to care for those who have served.

In contrast, it is important that labels and diagnoses in medicine be based on science and strict criteria. Proper treatment and proper understanding depend upon the ethical application of science.

I believe we should be able to reassure veterans that their symptoms, illnesses, and mental health needs will be appropriately addressed and treated. In that way they will not need to feel threatened if the scientific evidence does not allow us to uniformly agree that &quot;Gulf War Syndrome&quot; is the appropriate diagnostic label to explain those symptoms, and they need not worry that the lack of that label would then deprive them of compassionate and adequate treatment. This would allow us to continue to treat veterans as patients and continue to study the scientific issues.

A true diagnosis cannot be achieved by consensus without science but treatment should not be withheld or compromised because of the political controversies surrounding scientific uncertainty.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is an important difference between the political and sociological decisions that must be made with respect to healthcare and those made with respect to the science of medicine. Patients are often compelled to show that their symptoms or illness was caused by another in order to be eligible for diagnosis and treatment.</p>
<p>From a political and sociological point of view I believe it is the right thing to do to give veterans the benefit of the doubt and to accept the idea that the symptoms and illnesses that they label as Gulf War syndrome are worthy of evaluation and treatment. At minimum on that basis, I believe it is correct to provide medical care with respect to those complaints. In fact, I would go further. I have recommended that veterans deserve full medical coverage from their government without requiring the patient to prove a service connection first. (I am an orthopaedic surgeon employed by the Veterans Administration). Anyone who serves in the armed services has the potential to be put in harms way when the government determines that it is in the country&#8217;s best interest. Some pay a very high price for their service. I construe this willingness to be put in harms way as part of a social contract with the government who then has the obligation to care for those who have served.</p>
<p>In contrast, it is important that labels and diagnoses in medicine be based on science and strict criteria. Proper treatment and proper understanding depend upon the ethical application of science.</p>
<p>I believe we should be able to reassure veterans that their symptoms, illnesses, and mental health needs will be appropriately addressed and treated. In that way they will not need to feel threatened if the scientific evidence does not allow us to uniformly agree that &#8220;Gulf War Syndrome&#8221; is the appropriate diagnostic label to explain those symptoms, and they need not worry that the lack of that label would then deprive them of compassionate and adequate treatment. This would allow us to continue to treat veterans as patients and continue to study the scientific issues.</p>
<p>A true diagnosis cannot be achieved by consensus without science but treatment should not be withheld or compromised because of the political controversies surrounding scientific uncertainty.</p>
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		<title>By: News From Around The Blogosphere 11.26.08 &#171; Skepacabra</title>
		<link>http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=295&#038;cpage=1#comment-10840</link>
		<dc:creator>News From Around The Blogosphere 11.26.08 &#171; Skepacabra</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Nov 2008 08:55:20 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>[...] Does Gulf War Illness really exist? [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Does Gulf War Illness really exist? [...]</p>
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		<title>By: qetzal</title>
		<link>http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=295&#038;cpage=1#comment-10776</link>
		<dc:creator>qetzal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Nov 2008 18:53:32 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>@MedsVsTherapy:

Not sure why acrobat search failed you, but I found 5 cited refs co-authored by Vasterling: #127, 1520, 1708, 1709, &amp; 1710 of the reference list.

FWIW, none of them is the 2006 JAMA paper you cited.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@MedsVsTherapy:</p>
<p>Not sure why acrobat search failed you, but I found 5 cited refs co-authored by Vasterling: #127, 1520, 1708, 1709, &amp; 1710 of the reference list.</p>
<p>FWIW, none of them is the 2006 JAMA paper you cited.</p>
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		<title>By: David Gorski</title>
		<link>http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=295&#038;cpage=1#comment-10773</link>
		<dc:creator>David Gorski</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Nov 2008 17:59:57 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Maybe it had something to do with this post having accidentally being published on Sunday long enough for someone to have commented, then my depublishing it when I realized that it shouldn&#039;t be up yet (its original date was December 2), and then Harriet setting the date to today and republishing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maybe it had something to do with this post having accidentally being published on Sunday long enough for someone to have commented, then my depublishing it when I realized that it shouldn&#8217;t be up yet (its original date was December 2), and then Harriet setting the date to today and republishing.</p>
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		<title>By: Harriet Hall</title>
		<link>http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=295&#038;cpage=1#comment-10771</link>
		<dc:creator>Harriet Hall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Nov 2008 17:26:25 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>A comment on this post was accidentally deleted. I&#039;ll try to give the gist of what it said. The commenter responded to my statement that we all want to support the troops by saying &quot;No, not all of us do.&quot; Then he criticized me for not discussing compensation for civilian victims of Agent Orange in Viet Nam. I thought the comment was inappropriate, but its deletion was not an attempt at censorship, it was purely accidental.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A comment on this post was accidentally deleted. I&#8217;ll try to give the gist of what it said. The commenter responded to my statement that we all want to support the troops by saying &#8220;No, not all of us do.&#8221; Then he criticized me for not discussing compensation for civilian victims of Agent Orange in Viet Nam. I thought the comment was inappropriate, but its deletion was not an attempt at censorship, it was purely accidental.</p>
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		<title>By: Karl Withakay</title>
		<link>http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=295&#038;cpage=1#comment-10769</link>
		<dc:creator>Karl Withakay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Nov 2008 16:31:01 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Thanks for the excellent post Harriet.  This is exactly the kind of analysis I was looking for when I suggested a post on Gulf War Illness and the new report.  I knew you would do top notch job on the subject.

How can anyone who has looked at the subject objectively and critically be 100% sure they know whether GWI is real or not?

The study seems pretty sure that GWI exists, even though they don&#039;t know what it is, and, presumably, can&#039;t even be sure it is a single condition.

I suspect that:

If GWI is real, it is smaller than is popularly reported.
If GWI is real, it is possibly not a single distinct syndrome, but is several distinct conditions with different causes that are getting lumped together under the GWI label.

I wonder if, in the end, how much more it would cost  to not expend any more time and money and resources on further study and instead provide blanket disability claim coverage for Gulf War vets similar to what was done with Vietnam vets for Agent Orange exposure.  It may be easier to officially say &quot;We don&#039;t know, so we&#039;ll cover it just in case.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the excellent post Harriet.  This is exactly the kind of analysis I was looking for when I suggested a post on Gulf War Illness and the new report.  I knew you would do top notch job on the subject.</p>
<p>How can anyone who has looked at the subject objectively and critically be 100% sure they know whether GWI is real or not?</p>
<p>The study seems pretty sure that GWI exists, even though they don&#8217;t know what it is, and, presumably, can&#8217;t even be sure it is a single condition.</p>
<p>I suspect that:</p>
<p>If GWI is real, it is smaller than is popularly reported.<br />
If GWI is real, it is possibly not a single distinct syndrome, but is several distinct conditions with different causes that are getting lumped together under the GWI label.</p>
<p>I wonder if, in the end, how much more it would cost  to not expend any more time and money and resources on further study and instead provide blanket disability claim coverage for Gulf War vets similar to what was done with Vietnam vets for Agent Orange exposure.  It may be easier to officially say &#8220;We don&#8217;t know, so we&#8217;ll cover it just in case.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: MedsVsTherapy</title>
		<link>http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=295&#038;cpage=1#comment-10768</link>
		<dc:creator>MedsVsTherapy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Nov 2008 16:28:54 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>i have the same opinion: gosh, tough to put all of the data in perspective and confidently come to some conclusion.

i had acrobat do a search for &quot;vasterling,&quot; and nothing came up. so, all of the neuropsych research done by jennifer vasterling and colleagues with gulf war-experienced tropps is apparently not incorporated. maybe acrobat search did not work right.

one major study from vasterling and colleagues notes neuropsych diffs between two army cohorts: similarly composed -all from Stryker Brigade, I believe - but some with Gulf war exposure and some not; extensive neuropsych battery conducted BEFORE and after on all. what more could you ask for? DK why this 2006 study not included:

Ref, and brief results:
Vasterling JJ, Proctor SP, Amoroso P, Kane R, Heeren T, White RF. Neuropsychological outcomes of army personnel following deployment to the Iraq war. JAMA. 2006 Aug 2;296(5):519-29.
&quot;Iraq deployment, compared with nondeployment, was associated with neuropsychological compromise on tasks of sustained attention (beta = 0.11; P&lt;.001), verbal learning (beta = -1.51; P = .003), and visual-spatial memory (beta = -3.82; P&lt;.001). Iraq deployment was also associated with increased negative state affect on measures of confusion (beta = 1.40; P&lt;.001) and tension (beta = 1.24; P&lt;.001). In contrast, deployment was associated with improved simple reaction time (beta = 4.30; P = .003). Deployment effects remained statistically significant after taking into account deployment-related head injury and stress and depression symptoms. CONCLUSIONS: Deployment to Iraq is associated with increased risk of neuropsychological compromise.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i have the same opinion: gosh, tough to put all of the data in perspective and confidently come to some conclusion.</p>
<p>i had acrobat do a search for &#8220;vasterling,&#8221; and nothing came up. so, all of the neuropsych research done by jennifer vasterling and colleagues with gulf war-experienced tropps is apparently not incorporated. maybe acrobat search did not work right.</p>
<p>one major study from vasterling and colleagues notes neuropsych diffs between two army cohorts: similarly composed -all from Stryker Brigade, I believe &#8211; but some with Gulf war exposure and some not; extensive neuropsych battery conducted BEFORE and after on all. what more could you ask for? DK why this 2006 study not included:</p>
<p>Ref, and brief results:<br />
Vasterling JJ, Proctor SP, Amoroso P, Kane R, Heeren T, White RF. Neuropsychological outcomes of army personnel following deployment to the Iraq war. JAMA. 2006 Aug 2;296(5):519-29.<br />
&#8220;Iraq deployment, compared with nondeployment, was associated with neuropsychological compromise on tasks of sustained attention (beta = 0.11; P&lt;.001), verbal learning (beta = -1.51; P = .003), and visual-spatial memory (beta = -3.82; P&lt;.001). Iraq deployment was also associated with increased negative state affect on measures of confusion (beta = 1.40; P&lt;.001) and tension (beta = 1.24; P&lt;.001). In contrast, deployment was associated with improved simple reaction time (beta = 4.30; P = .003). Deployment effects remained statistically significant after taking into account deployment-related head injury and stress and depression symptoms. CONCLUSIONS: Deployment to Iraq is associated with increased risk of neuropsychological compromise.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: w_nightshade</title>
		<link>http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=295&#038;cpage=1#comment-10766</link>
		<dc:creator>w_nightshade</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Nov 2008 14:22:08 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Once again I am deeply impressed with the quality of the posts here as SBM.  It questions the underlying assumptions of GWI without being dismissive or disrespectful, and it is not afraid to conclude with &quot;I don&#039;t know&quot; (I am coming to the point where I find that the most trustworthy response to any question).   I learned some new information along the way.

Thanks for this article, Dr. Hall.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Once again I am deeply impressed with the quality of the posts here as SBM.  It questions the underlying assumptions of GWI without being dismissive or disrespectful, and it is not afraid to conclude with &#8220;I don&#8217;t know&#8221; (I am coming to the point where I find that the most trustworthy response to any question).   I learned some new information along the way.</p>
<p>Thanks for this article, Dr. Hall.</p>
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