<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Battlefield acupuncture revisited: That&#8217;s it? That&#8217;s all Col. Niemtzow&#8217;s got?</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?feed=rss2&#038;p=314" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=314</link>
	<description>Exploring issues and controversies in the relationship between science and medicine</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Fri, 10 Sep 2010 02:13:51 -0700</lastBuildDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.4</generator>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
		<item>
		<title>By: Skeptics ( Unwitting ) dupes? - Page 14 - Parapsychology and alternative medicine forums of mind-energy.net</title>
		<link>http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=314&#038;cpage=1#comment-13220</link>
		<dc:creator>Skeptics ( Unwitting ) dupes? - Page 14 - Parapsychology and alternative medicine forums of mind-energy.net</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Feb 2009 14:59:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=314#comment-13220</guid>
		<description>[...] not make it &#039;real&#039;.  These articles go into more detail though I&#039;ll be suprised if you read them:  Science-Based Medicine </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] not make it &#8216;real&#8217;.  These articles go into more detail though I&#8217;ll be suprised if you read them:  Science-Based Medicine</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Science-Based Medicine &#187; Dismantling NCCAM: A How-To Primer</title>
		<link>http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=314&#038;cpage=1#comment-12434</link>
		<dc:creator>Science-Based Medicine &#187; Dismantling NCCAM: A How-To Primer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Jan 2009 14:46:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=314#comment-12434</guid>
		<description>[...] Two of the earliest posts I wrote for Science-Based Medicine were entitled The infiltration of complementary and alternative medicine (CAM) and “integrative medicine” into academia and The National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine (NCCAM): Your tax dollars hard at work. Both were intended as a lament over how not only is pseudoscientific quackery, much of it based on a prescientific understanding of how the human body works and disease occurs, finding its way into some of the most prestigious academic medical centers in the U.S. (for example, Georgetown and Beth Israel) but it&#8217;s even finding its way into the heart of the U.S. military. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Two of the earliest posts I wrote for Science-Based Medicine were entitled The infiltration of complementary and alternative medicine (CAM) and “integrative medicine” into academia and The National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine (NCCAM): Your tax dollars hard at work. Both were intended as a lament over how not only is pseudoscientific quackery, much of it based on a prescientific understanding of how the human body works and disease occurs, finding its way into some of the most prestigious academic medical centers in the U.S. (for example, Georgetown and Beth Israel) but it&#8217;s even finding its way into the heart of the U.S. military. [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: SDR</title>
		<link>http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=314&#038;cpage=1#comment-11436</link>
		<dc:creator>SDR</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Dec 2008 22:52:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=314#comment-11436</guid>
		<description>I have an open question to any physicians here.  How can this man still be considered a physician if his primary practice is non-medical?  Is a M.D. really all that is needed?

I know I wouldn&#039;t consider a person who sticks to studying ID a scientist, no matter what his or her degree.

----------------
Secular Discrimination Report
http://bunda.org</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have an open question to any physicians here.  How can this man still be considered a physician if his primary practice is non-medical?  Is a M.D. really all that is needed?</p>
<p>I know I wouldn&#8217;t consider a person who sticks to studying ID a scientist, no matter what his or her degree.</p>
<p>&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;-<br />
Secular Discrimination Report<br />
<a href="http://bunda.org" rel="nofollow">http://bunda.org</a></p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Kimball Atwood</title>
		<link>http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=314&#038;cpage=1#comment-11428</link>
		<dc:creator>Kimball Atwood</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Dec 2008 15:08:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=314#comment-11428</guid>
		<description>&quot;One of the reasons people often get away with cons so easily is that other people don’t believe anyone would do something they wouldn’t&quot;

Yes! This is a key point in all considerations of quackery&#039;s incursions into modern medicine or, for that matter, in all con games (think: Bernard Madoff). There&#039;s a large topic here, having to do with the tools of skepticism being useful (essential, probably) for recognizing &quot;CAM&quot; for what it is: quackery. 

Skeptical tools---Fifi&#039;s assertion being an example---need not be science per se, as all fans of skeptical literature know (Novella and Sampson being the most advanced among us bloggers, IMO). Those who cut their teeth on Martin Gardner, Ray Hyman, James Randi, Joe Nickell and others writing in Skeptical Inquirer and elsewhere have been amused by how easily real scientists have been fooled by Uri Geller, or by how easily wannabe scientists like David Eisenberg and Herb Benson have been fooled by &quot;external Qi Gong&quot; practitioners. 

A useful reference:

Kurtz P (ed.). A Skeptic&#039;s Handbook of Parapsychology. Buffalo; Prometheus Books (1985). 

It&#039;s an old and tired story: in the 19th century several eminent scientists (but not all), including Alfred Russel Wallace, Robert Hare, and William Crookes, who &quot;investigated&quot; spiritual mediums, became convinced that the phenomena they had observed were legitimate. Perhaps they can be excused for having wandered into previously uncharted territory. Their modern counterparts have no such excuse.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;One of the reasons people often get away with cons so easily is that other people don’t believe anyone would do something they wouldn’t&#8221;</p>
<p>Yes! This is a key point in all considerations of quackery&#8217;s incursions into modern medicine or, for that matter, in all con games (think: Bernard Madoff). There&#8217;s a large topic here, having to do with the tools of skepticism being useful (essential, probably) for recognizing &#8220;CAM&#8221; for what it is: quackery. </p>
<p>Skeptical tools&#8212;Fifi&#8217;s assertion being an example&#8212;need not be science per se, as all fans of skeptical literature know (Novella and Sampson being the most advanced among us bloggers, IMO). Those who cut their teeth on Martin Gardner, Ray Hyman, James Randi, Joe Nickell and others writing in Skeptical Inquirer and elsewhere have been amused by how easily real scientists have been fooled by Uri Geller, or by how easily wannabe scientists like David Eisenberg and Herb Benson have been fooled by &#8220;external Qi Gong&#8221; practitioners. </p>
<p>A useful reference:</p>
<p>Kurtz P (ed.). A Skeptic&#8217;s Handbook of Parapsychology. Buffalo; Prometheus Books (1985). </p>
<p>It&#8217;s an old and tired story: in the 19th century several eminent scientists (but not all), including Alfred Russel Wallace, Robert Hare, and William Crookes, who &#8220;investigated&#8221; spiritual mediums, became convinced that the phenomena they had observed were legitimate. Perhaps they can be excused for having wandered into previously uncharted territory. Their modern counterparts have no such excuse.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Fifi</title>
		<link>http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=314&#038;cpage=1#comment-11407</link>
		<dc:creator>Fifi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Dec 2008 16:25:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=314#comment-11407</guid>
		<description>I&#039;d add that people who are dogmatic and ideological about science are no different in their desire to feel like they understand the world which gives them/us more insight and control - more agency in the world, if you will. Really, that&#039;s what a lot of people are looking for when they get attached to particular explanations of why things work to the exclusion of considering the possibility that their personal world view may not be as accurate as they were convinced - I am, of course, as prone to this as all other humans so I&#039;m not trying to put someone else down or elevate myself here.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;d add that people who are dogmatic and ideological about science are no different in their desire to feel like they understand the world which gives them/us more insight and control &#8211; more agency in the world, if you will. Really, that&#8217;s what a lot of people are looking for when they get attached to particular explanations of why things work to the exclusion of considering the possibility that their personal world view may not be as accurate as they were convinced &#8211; I am, of course, as prone to this as all other humans so I&#8217;m not trying to put someone else down or elevate myself here.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Fifi</title>
		<link>http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=314&#038;cpage=1#comment-11406</link>
		<dc:creator>Fifi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Dec 2008 16:21:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=314#comment-11406</guid>
		<description>wertys - Have you read the book - it&#039;s really quite entertaining and interesting (as are many books about what people who want to spy on others and secretly manipulate events do and think since people who are into that kind of secret control tend to be kinda wacky anyway - after all, what are woo and wacky beliefs about other than having some sense of control or understanding of a chaotic event or the complexity of life?). 

I really don&#039;t see why you find it so hard to believe that the military would invest in and promote woo when the topic of the blog is that they&#039;re investing in these kinds of things! (Such as using acupuncture in the battlefield - though I attribute this more to the field of chronic pain, which is a special relationship vis a vis woo due to there being no objective measure for it, as discussed here before.) If you&#039;re interested in fighting and disabling woo in medicine, it&#039;s relevant to understand why and how it&#039;s gained legitimacy. General Stubblebine is also the person behind the whole www.healthfreedomusa.com 

http://www.healthfreedomusa.org/index.php?page_id=198

One of the reasons people often get away with cons so easily is that other people don&#039;t believe anyone would do something they wouldn&#039;t (or that the world works a certain way that doesn&#039;t involed scheming and plotting to take advantage of others with no sense of empathy or compassion). Along with the appeal to vanity or manipulation of neediness, of course. This is just as true of governmental propaganda as it is of individual cons. 

I don&#039;t see it as any grand conspiracy - though obviously people in government and business conspire with and against each other - it&#039;s just the way people have run governments and maintained power throughout history. It&#039;s a bit silly to think that&#039;s no longer true!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>wertys &#8211; Have you read the book &#8211; it&#8217;s really quite entertaining and interesting (as are many books about what people who want to spy on others and secretly manipulate events do and think since people who are into that kind of secret control tend to be kinda wacky anyway &#8211; after all, what are woo and wacky beliefs about other than having some sense of control or understanding of a chaotic event or the complexity of life?). </p>
<p>I really don&#8217;t see why you find it so hard to believe that the military would invest in and promote woo when the topic of the blog is that they&#8217;re investing in these kinds of things! (Such as using acupuncture in the battlefield &#8211; though I attribute this more to the field of chronic pain, which is a special relationship vis a vis woo due to there being no objective measure for it, as discussed here before.) If you&#8217;re interested in fighting and disabling woo in medicine, it&#8217;s relevant to understand why and how it&#8217;s gained legitimacy. General Stubblebine is also the person behind the whole <a href="http://www.healthfreedomusa.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.healthfreedomusa.com</a> </p>
<p><a href="http://www.healthfreedomusa.org/index.php?page_id=198" rel="nofollow">http://www.healthfreedomusa.org/index.php?page_id=198</a></p>
<p>One of the reasons people often get away with cons so easily is that other people don&#8217;t believe anyone would do something they wouldn&#8217;t (or that the world works a certain way that doesn&#8217;t involed scheming and plotting to take advantage of others with no sense of empathy or compassion). Along with the appeal to vanity or manipulation of neediness, of course. This is just as true of governmental propaganda as it is of individual cons. </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t see it as any grand conspiracy &#8211; though obviously people in government and business conspire with and against each other &#8211; it&#8217;s just the way people have run governments and maintained power throughout history. It&#8217;s a bit silly to think that&#8217;s no longer true!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: wertys</title>
		<link>http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=314&#038;cpage=1#comment-11391</link>
		<dc:creator>wertys</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Dec 2008 22:42:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=314#comment-11391</guid>
		<description>Walks like a duck, poops like a duck...must be a quack..

Seriously though, he&#039;ll be trying to make a lightning shaped scar for himself next.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Walks like a duck, poops like a duck&#8230;must be a quack..</p>
<p>Seriously though, he&#8217;ll be trying to make a lightning shaped scar for himself next.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: maus</title>
		<link>http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=314&#038;cpage=1#comment-11386</link>
		<dc:creator>maus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Dec 2008 20:41:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=314#comment-11386</guid>
		<description>I&#039;d like to suggest anyone who&#039;s interested in the state of science in modern military operations read The Men Who Stare at Goats: www.amazon.com/Men-Who-Stare-Goats/dp/0743241924 .

It&#039;s short and very entertaining, if depressing in the amount of power these people are able to attain over life and death.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;d like to suggest anyone who&#8217;s interested in the state of science in modern military operations read The Men Who Stare at Goats: <a href="http://www.amazon.com/Men-Who-Stare-Goats/dp/0743241924" rel="nofollow">http://www.amazon.com/Men-Who-Stare-Goats/dp/0743241924</a> .</p>
<p>It&#8217;s short and very entertaining, if depressing in the amount of power these people are able to attain over life and death.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Zetetic</title>
		<link>http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=314&#038;cpage=1#comment-11383</link>
		<dc:creator>Zetetic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Dec 2008 18:13:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=314#comment-11383</guid>
		<description>According to the colonel&#039;s n5ev.com web site:

&quot;I am a physician practicing acupuncture full-time at the Malcolm Grow Medical Center, Andrews Air Force Base, Maryland.&quot;

He does this nonsense full-time ???  Seems this might qualify for a federal &quot;waste, fraud &amp; abuse&quot; investigation!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>According to the colonel&#8217;s n5ev.com web site:</p>
<p>&#8220;I am a physician practicing acupuncture full-time at the Malcolm Grow Medical Center, Andrews Air Force Base, Maryland.&#8221;</p>
<p>He does this nonsense full-time ???  Seems this might qualify for a federal &#8220;waste, fraud &amp; abuse&#8221; investigation!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Your Tax Dollars at Work &#171; Buttle&#8217;s World</title>
		<link>http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=314&#038;cpage=1#comment-11382</link>
		<dc:creator>Your Tax Dollars at Work &#171; Buttle&#8217;s World</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Dec 2008 17:13:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=314#comment-11382</guid>
		<description>[...] has already gotten worse, at least in the Air Force. Possibly related posts: (automatically generated)Free the FilmSpeaking [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] has already gotten worse, at least in the Air Force. Possibly related posts: (automatically generated)Free the FilmSpeaking [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Karl Withakay</title>
		<link>http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=314&#038;cpage=1#comment-11381</link>
		<dc:creator>Karl Withakay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Dec 2008 16:47:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=314#comment-11381</guid>
		<description>Isn&#039;t a conflict of interest to publish in a &quot;journal&quot; for which you are the editor in chief?  Can we really expect an article written by the editor in chief of a journal to be subjected to any serious, objective review?  (Aside from the fact that we don&#039;t really expect any serious, scientific review of anything in this particular journal.)

Any time someone uses the term &quot;Newtonian physics&quot; in the context of discussing medicine, my woo meter hits DEFCON 1: Woo is either imminent or ongoing.  

The phrase &quot;some of us recognize this&quot; should at least elevate your woo alert to DEFCON3 at a minimum.  This phraseology is typical of purveyors of woo-  Establish an unsupported position (in this case that acupuncture is a definite science) and imply that anyone who doesn&#039;t accept this position simply isn&#039;t enlightened enough to &quot;recognize&quot; it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Isn&#8217;t a conflict of interest to publish in a &#8220;journal&#8221; for which you are the editor in chief?  Can we really expect an article written by the editor in chief of a journal to be subjected to any serious, objective review?  (Aside from the fact that we don&#8217;t really expect any serious, scientific review of anything in this particular journal.)</p>
<p>Any time someone uses the term &#8220;Newtonian physics&#8221; in the context of discussing medicine, my woo meter hits DEFCON 1: Woo is either imminent or ongoing.  </p>
<p>The phrase &#8220;some of us recognize this&#8221; should at least elevate your woo alert to DEFCON3 at a minimum.  This phraseology is typical of purveyors of woo-  Establish an unsupported position (in this case that acupuncture is a definite science) and imply that anyone who doesn&#8217;t accept this position simply isn&#8217;t enlightened enough to &#8220;recognize&#8221; it.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: nitpicking</title>
		<link>http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=314&#038;cpage=1#comment-11380</link>
		<dc:creator>nitpicking</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Dec 2008 13:35:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=314#comment-11380</guid>
		<description>Just to confirm: this study was of so little value that the only place Niemtzow could get it published was &lt;b&gt;in his own magazine&lt;/b&gt;?

Would it be appropriate for me to write my Congressman and Senators?  (I&#039;m in NY, so I will have to wait until my second Senator is appointed, of course.)  Or Secretary Gates, who will seemingly be staying on?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just to confirm: this study was of so little value that the only place Niemtzow could get it published was <b>in his own magazine</b>?</p>
<p>Would it be appropriate for me to write my Congressman and Senators?  (I&#8217;m in NY, so I will have to wait until my second Senator is appointed, of course.)  Or Secretary Gates, who will seemingly be staying on?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: DLC</title>
		<link>http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=314&#038;cpage=1#comment-11377</link>
		<dc:creator>DLC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Dec 2008 11:17:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=314#comment-11377</guid>
		<description>Um... does Niemtzow realize he&#039;s forgotten his anatomy classes ?
I mean, he is a doctor of medicine, right ? He didn&#039;t get his MD from sending in 50,000 box tops or as a prize in a box of crackerjacks ?  I&#039;m wondering how he feels about those little magnets some scam artist was selling as an aid to stop smoking ?
Didn&#039;t that quack also claim it was &quot;Auricular therapy&quot; ?

Hey, Dr Niemtzow, can soldiers get some adhesive tape to draw the poisons out of their feet, too ? 
Might as well. . . the tape at least might clean their feet.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Um&#8230; does Niemtzow realize he&#8217;s forgotten his anatomy classes ?<br />
I mean, he is a doctor of medicine, right ? He didn&#8217;t get his MD from sending in 50,000 box tops or as a prize in a box of crackerjacks ?  I&#8217;m wondering how he feels about those little magnets some scam artist was selling as an aid to stop smoking ?<br />
Didn&#8217;t that quack also claim it was &#8220;Auricular therapy&#8221; ?</p>
<p>Hey, Dr Niemtzow, can soldiers get some adhesive tape to draw the poisons out of their feet, too ?<br />
Might as well. . . the tape at least might clean their feet.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
