Comments on: Acupuncture – Disconnected from Reality

By: “Acupuncture? Really Mother?” « Mal-Content

“Acupuncture? Really Mother?” « Mal-Content — Mon, 04 May 2009 01:58:28 +0000

[...] tried to tell her there were no conclusive studies published that acupuncture has any real effect beyond placebo and that her personal experience was [...]

By: Kimball Atwood

Kimball Atwood — Sun, 03 May 2009 16:20:27 +0000

I’ve been delaying a post on ‘acupuncture anesthesia’ for some time, because other things keep coming up. No more delay: look for the Definitive Story a week from this Friday.
KA

By: Newcoaster

Newcoaster — Sun, 03 May 2009 06:07:41 +0000

Versus

It would be more accurate to say that Dr. Nuland observed major surgery being done with WHAT HE WAS LED TO BELIEVE was no anesthesia.

He offered no proof, only unsupported anecdotes.

By: Newcoaster

Newcoaster — Sun, 03 May 2009 06:07:17 +0000

Versus

It would be more accurate to say that Dr. Nuland observed major surgery being done with WHAT HE WAS LED TO BELIEVE was no anesthesia.

By: Peter Bowditch

Peter Bowditch — Fri, 27 Mar 2009 02:57:37 +0000

Dave: “I keep getting the claim that acupuncture could be used as anesthesia for cardiac surgery, and I don’t have a good rebuttal handy”.

It could be that the origin of this myth lies in the adventures of James Reston of the New York Times in 1971. He was treated for appendicitis in Beijing using real-medicine anesthesia and procedures but later moxibusted for pain. The story grew from there, but it wasn’t Reston’s fault.

This story is in Bob Park’s excellent book, Superstition.

By: Better Health » Acupuncture Doesn’t Work, Believers Ignore Evidence

Better Health » Acupuncture Doesn’t Work, Believers Ignore Evidence — Mon, 23 Mar 2009 12:05:49 +0000

[...] **This post was originally published at Science Based Medicine.** [...]

By: Versus

Versus — Fri, 20 Mar 2009 20:15:31 +0000

Surgery with acupuncture. Thought that sounded familiar, and now I know why – saw it on the NCCAM site [them again!]:
On March 10, Sherwin B. Nuland, M.D., surgery professor at Yale and author, gave the Stephen E. Straus Distinguished Lecture in the Science of Complementary and Alternative Medicine, entitled “Chinese Medicine, Western Science, and Acupuncture,” presented by “NCCAM and supported by the Foundation for the National Institutes of Health with generous funding from The Bernard Osher Foundation.” According to NCCAM’s announcement, “[d]uring visits to China, Dr. Nuland observed major surgery being done with no anesthesia, aided by acupuncture. In this lecture, he will describe these operations and tell of this experience.” Here’s the link to the announcement, which itself has a link to a live broadcast of the lecture.
http://nccam.nih.gov/news/events/lectures/straus2009mar.htm

By: Karl Withakay

Karl Withakay — Wed, 18 Mar 2009 19:17:26 +0000

Jorgen, low quality, unblinded studies such as that might be remotely useful as early, preliminary studies to demonstrate the need for rigorous double blinded followup studies, but that the acupuncture world keeps doing more and low quality studies, over and over again, presumably because those are the only studies capable of showing an effect for acupuncture distinct from placebo.

Every decent quality, double blinded study shows no significant difference between acupuncture and placebo.

The supporters of acupuncture typically respond to those studies by claiming that the placebo acupuncture was having a real effect- that either the sham points used were still having an effect, or is sham needles were used, that the sham needles have a real effect even though they do not pierce the skin. Somehow it doesn’t matter to them that they are invalidating their underlying theories as to the basis on acupuncture regarding meridians and chi points and such.

Another defense used by Alt Meders is that their modality of choice is an individualized treatment, custom tailored to the patient, (even though that’s not they way it’s practiced) and therefore it can’t be done in a double-blinded RCT context.

I always like to know the rules of the game before I start playing; I have a hard time trusting the guy explaining the rules while we play when he’s winning the whole time.

Acupuncture (and other quack medicine) is the medical equivalent of Baseketball. (If I believed in mysticism, I’d see some cosmic significance in the fact that Jenny McCarthy was in that movie)

By: weing

weing — Wed, 18 Mar 2009 19:00:03 +0000

Thanks Harriet, I thought you had posted about that.

By: hatch_xanadu

hatch_xanadu — Wed, 18 Mar 2009 18:54:07 +0000

Thanks, all. Harriet, I’ve no idea why I didn’t recall that post.

overshoot: Not a bad idea. Might help to weed out the folks who claim to have “healed themselves” without bothering to mention the previous medical treatments they’ve had.

By: Acupuncture - Disconnected from Reality « Skepfeeds-The Best Skeptical blogs of the day

Wed, 18 Mar 2009 18:38:38 +0000

[...] READ THE REST OF THIS ENTRY AT “SCIENCE BASED MEDICINE” Posted in Science Based Medicine. Tags: acupuncture, alternative medicine, holistic medicine, Integrative Medicine, scientific, scientific method. [...]

By: overshoot

overshoot — Wed, 18 Mar 2009 18:31:53 +0000

I’m all in favor of “alternative medicine insurance.” Just make it an either/or at open enrollment (ours is coming up soon.) Employees can choose one or the other, but not both.

If you choose the “alternative” option, your plan covers acupuncture, but not opiates; it covers homeopathy, but not antibiotics, it covers chiropractic, but not orthopedic; etc.

Let’s have a real, level playing field, test of how popular So-Called Alternative Medicine really is.

By: Steven Novella

Steven Novella — Wed, 18 Mar 2009 18:09:03 +0000

Jorgen – that is an unblinded study. Sorry, but unblinded in this context – worthless.

By: Harriet Hall

Harriet Hall — Wed, 18 Mar 2009 18:06:35 +0000

There is no evidence that acupuncture has been practiced for 4000 years. I wrote about this in my post “Puncturing the Acupuncture Myth” http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=252

By: weing

weing — Wed, 18 Mar 2009 17:50:00 +0000

Has acupuncture really been practiced for 4000 years or is it a more recent invention of about 200 years or so? I’ve never seen documentation of its antiquity.

By: khan

khan — Wed, 18 Mar 2009 16:43:16 +0000

“4000 years” is “toddlerhood”?

By: MBoaz

MBoaz — Wed, 18 Mar 2009 16:38:58 +0000

[blockquote]It is unlikely that a journal or practitioner dedicated to acupuncture will ever reach the conclusion that acupuncture is a dead end and science-based medicine should move on.[/blockquote]

I strongly agree, but for the record:
I’m a licensed acupuncturist. Acupuncture is a dead end. Science-based medicine should move on.

By: Zetetic

Zetetic — Wed, 18 Mar 2009 16:34:28 +0000

hatch_xanaduon:

Years ago there was a demonstration of acupuncture used as anesthesia during surgery in China and it was revealed to be hoax:

http://www.gpposner.com/Rosenfeld_sram.html

By: David Gorski

David Gorski — Wed, 18 Mar 2009 15:39:16 +0000

Kim,

Please do. I keep getting the claim that acupuncture could be used as anesthesia for cardiac surgery, and I don’t have a good rebuttal handy.

By: DancingSamurai.ca | Steve Novella on Acupuncture

DancingSamurai.ca | Steve Novella on Acupuncture — Wed, 18 Mar 2009 15:14:31 +0000

[...] – and they show it does not work. This recent article by Steve Novella is a must-read on Acupuncture and the common fallacies/rationalisations that still persist about its use: There is still no compelling evidence that there is any real [...]