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526 thoughts on “I refute it thus

  1. Jay Gordon, MD, FAAP says:

    I quote Dr.Gorski: “But personalizing medical care is tricky. You have to ask yourself some questions and be very clear on the answers before you see the patient and not be changing them after you see the patient.”

    No. Often therapy will change after discussing the patient’s family history and response to previous therapy. And how they deal with risks and benefits of certain therapies. Inadvertently, you’ve given a perfect example of how a good doctor must integrate information from the patient to individualize care. Sometimes even deviating from the standard in the best interests of that one patient.

    1. David Gorski says:

      No. Often therapy will change after discussing the patient’s family history and response to previous therapy. And how they deal with risks and benefits of certain therapies. Inadvertently, you’ve given a perfect example of how a good doctor must integrate information from the patient to individualize care. Sometimes even deviating from the standard in the best interests of that one patient.

      You completely misunderstand. What I am referring to is that you must have science- and evidence-based criteria to tell you beforehand how a patient’s clinical history, family history, physical findings, and response to previous therapy should impact treatment decisions. For instance, if a patient tells you X, you should know that Y then becomes indicated and have evidence to support the reason why. Otherwise, you end up “making it up as you go along” because you have no clearly defined science-based rationale and algorithm to guide your decisions personalizing patient care. Your rationale, I’m afraid, comes across as doing what your anecdote and confirmation bias tell you to do. Certainly, no matter how much I and others have prodded you to explain your science- and evidence-based criteria for deciding which child gets which vaccine and when (i.e., how you personalize the vaccination schedule according to the needs of the patient), you have not articulated any such criteria, except in a maddeningly vague way that gives you the latitude to do whatever you want and, yes, “make it up as you go along.”

      I’ll give you an example in surgery. When I was covering trauma, we were monitoring a patient’s hematocrit, which was falling. We were concerned that he might be bleeding. I told my attending that I’d check a ‘crit in four hours. He then asked me what I would do with the information. When I gave a vague answer (if it fell I would consider transfusing and doing a CT scan), he demanded that I tell him what hematocrit would trigger transfusion and investigation. How low? Why? It was an uncomfortable conversation, but it taught me that the “personalization” of care to that patient required that I know what I would do with the result of a given test before I order it and that I have an evidence-based reason for ordering the test in the first place. Similarly, when taking a history you should have science- and evidence-based reasons to know beforehand what you would do if a patient’s parent tells you something about her child’s family history. I know you don’t have that, because you have said that you would skip or delay vaccines for autistic children or children with an autistic sibling out of a fear that is not scientifically supported of increased risk of a reaction that might even lead to autism. You base your “personalization” of care on anecdotes, personal bias, confirmation bias, and non-evidence-based fears.

      Upset? Want to prove me wrong? Then tell me the evidence- and science-based reasons for the way you vaccinate, the criteria for giving or withholding vaccines, including citations to back up your method. Otherwise, I can’t help but conclude that, with respect to vaccines, you are indeed making it up as you go along.

      1. Jay Gordon says:

        David!
        Please fix the threading.
        And, yes, much of what I do I make up (and change) as I go along.

        1. Todd W. says:

          There’s nothing wrong with the threading, Jay. If you click “Reply”, your reply will be just under the comment you’re replying to. If you make a comment in the box at the very bottom, your comment will appear at the bottom.

          As for just making things up as you go along, thank you for admitting it. Now, aren’t you terrified for your patients? You are doing such a disservice to them. How would you feel if you brought your car in to the mechanic for a problem and he just made it up as he went along, without any previously established concrete, validated criteria upon which to base what he will do to fix your car?

          1. windriven says:

            Todd, there actually does seem to be a threading problem; it does not seem to work consistently. It seems especially flaky when the reply is also the last comment in the stack.

          2. Todd W. says:

            Okay. My apologies. Not that I am a fan of the way I thought it was working, anyway. Much prefer commenting tools that put comments in order, regardless of which one they’re replying to. Much easier to use and fine new comments than this style that indents replies just below the referenced one.

    2. Harriet Hall says:

      I think you know that is not what Dr. Gorski meant. Before any doctor recommends therapy to a patient, he should take a thorough history. But before you recommend individualized changes in the vaccine schedule and before you discuss “the patient’s family history and response to previous therapy,” you need to know what elements of the history and what response to previous therapy are indications for what changes. That’s the step you seem to be missing. Without clear guidelines based on evidence, you are just making it up for each patient. The standard was developed as a “best practice” for the general population of patients, and if you deviate from it, you need to be very sure you are changing to a “better practice” for that individual.

  2. Rob Cordes, DO, FAAP says:

    Liz,

    A thought provoking article.
    The final paragraph:

    “Even with optimal communication strategies, some parents will remain hesitant to vaccinate their children. A health care provider may understandably suggest or encourage a family to find another provider who might better fit with the family’s needs when a substantial level of distrust develops in the relationship, significant differences in philosophy of care emerge, or the quality of communication is poor. However, when the only source of contention is vaccination, maintaining the patient–provider relationship conveys respect, builds trust, and affords additional opportunities to discuss immunization.6 Asking parents who refuse to vaccinate their children to seek medical care elsewhere is counterproductive: it rarely gets a child vaccinated, undermines trust, may increase the risk to others in the community, and eliminates opportunities for continued dialog about vaccination.”

    I am very willing to answer patients questions about immunizations and often take the proactive step on making sure I give extra time on my schedule for their children’s well visits. It often becomes evident after a two or three visits if parents will immunize their children or not.
    In cases where they will not immunize not only are they putting some of my other patients at risk we have then reached a “substantial level of distrust” when they trust the opinions of Andrew Wakefield or Bob Sears or Jay Gordon over mine on what is the most important thing I do for my patients. I can no longer be their child’s pediatrician. Besides not trusting me they are asking me to practice substandard care.

  3. lilady says:

    Hello Dr. Jay. You haven’t replied to any of my comments and the links that I have provided up thread….why not?

    Could it be…that I, a registered nurse, who worked as a public health nurse clinician-epidemiologist, who investigated individual cases, clusters and outbreaks of vaccine-preventable diseases, called you out on your “opinions” about vaccines?

    Could it be….that I, called you out on your “Links” section of your website, where you used whale.to and mercola.com in lieu of the CDC and AAP websites for reliable information for each individual vaccine-preventable childhood disease?

    Could it be….that I caught you in blatant lies on Orac’s Respectful Insolence blog…and you put me “on probation” on the RI blog? Where’s that “public statement”, Dr. Jay?

    http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2013/08/16/yet-another-antivaccine-meme-rises-from-the-grave-again-no-diane-harper-doesnt-hate-gardasil/

    “Jay Gordon (no initials!)
    August 16, 2013

    “Just another Jay Gordon, who will sometimes admit “he was mistaken” on RI, but cannot issue a public statement; totally dishonest.”

    You put me in the same category with Diane Harper? One of the most intelligent and courageous vaccine researchers in the world??!!

    I will take you off probation soon, lilady. And then we’ll meet for lunch and discuss this civilly away from the crowd.

    By the way, I am preparing a public statement, “milady.”

    Jay”

    Could it be, that the last time you posted on a SBM blog, I called you out on your not-based-on-evidence-opinions about vaccines…where you managed to alienate Dr. Peter Moran…and you took me off probation and “banned me”?

    http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/antivaccine-use-the-law-when-science-fails-you/

    How does it feel to be a pariah in the science blogging community, Dr. Jay?

  4. Jay Gordon, MD, FAAP says:

    Dr. Gorski says: “When I gave a vague answer (if it fell I would consider transfusing and doing a CT scan), he demanded that I tell him what hematocrit would trigger transfusion and investigation. How low? Why?”

    That kind of bullying–which you persist in using to this day–has no place in medical training or discourse among civil people.

    What you could have answered–had you not been dealing with a bully who held all the power–was that the decision would not be made based just on the number, the ‘crit, but on many other parameters, vitals, physical exam and would includ your personal experience with patients in this situation. You were in training and the “experience” part was not as useful then. But now, with decades of experience, that could be your answer. And mine. Actually, that would be the only correct answer.

    1. lilady says:

      How about replying to some of my comments, Dr. Jay?

      Just why do you think your ill-informed, not-backed-by-science “opinions” about vaccines, which you base your practice on, and which violate the Standards of Care of the American Academy of Pediatrics, are valid?

      Why haven’t you revised your website after you removed the links to whale.to and mercola.com about vaccines…and replaced those links with reliable ones from the CDC, the AAP and the California Department of Public Health?

      Have you forgotten who your patients are, Dr. Jay? (hint) Your patients are not the parents who seek you out because you are listed as a “Vaccine Friendly Doctor” on Dr. Bob Sears website.

  5. Jay Gordon, MD, FAAP says:

    Todd says: “Except for the ones who come in with rotavirus, pertussis, pneumococcal disease…”

    How long do you think I’d get to stay in business if this really happened, Todd? A few years? Five, Ten?

  6. I’m not sure why Cochrane said there was only 1 study up to 2008. They appear to be mistaken. Also, there is another study published in 2012.

    Contribution to the knowledge of the influence of vitamins B-12 and C on the production of tetanus antitoxin (1962)
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/13958363

    CURRENT THERAPEUTIC CRITERIA IN THE TREATMENT OF TETANUS (1964)
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14188550

    Efficacy of vitamin C in counteracting tetanus toxin toxicity (1966)
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/5986216

    Effect of ascorbic acid in the treatment of tetanus (1984)
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6466264

    Vitamin C and the treatment of tetanus (2010)
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20587937
    TODO:get info ***
    Ann Afr Med. 2010 Apr-Jun;9(2):108-9. doi: 10.4103/1596-3519.64742.
    Vitamin C and the treatment of tetanus (2010)
    Hemila H.

    The Effect of Vitamin C on Tetanus Toxin and Strychnine Toxicity: a Systematic Review of Animal Studies (2012)
    by Harri Hemilä
    http://www.mv.helsinki.fi/home/hemila/CT/tetanus.htm
    Discussion
    Only one of the identified experimental series failed to record an unambiguous benefit of vitamin C, namely the study by Ghosh (1938). Three series suggested dose-response by the variation of the dose of vitamin C (Dey 1967) or strychnine (Eichbaum 1977) or both vitamin C and tetanus toxin (Frezza 1957) so that a higher ratio of vitamin C to toxin led to a greater benefit in each of the three cases. Furthermore, Dey (1967) found that a delay in the administration of strychnine after a high dose vitamin C led to a parallel reduction in plasma vitamin C level and protection against strychnine (Table 3).
    Although many of the studies in Tables 1 to 4 are old, it seems unlikely that administering a fixed dose of vitamin C and evaluating mortality were meaningfully different in the older days compared with modern methods. It is noteworthy that dramatic effects by vitamin C against the toxicity of tetanus toxin and strychnine have been observed in diverse animal species ranging from fish and chicken to rat and mouse. Even though caution is needed in the extrapolation of animal study results to human subjects, the consistency in the effects in such diverse species gives support to the report by Jahan et al. (1984) who found that 1 g/day vitamin C protected against tetanus in human patients.
    The doses of vitamin C used in the animal studies range up to 1-2 grams per kg body weight (Tables 1 to 4). For a 70 kg person this would correspond to 70-140 grams. Only some 10 mg/day is needed to prevent scurvy, and the current recommendation of vitamin C intake in the USA is 90 mg/day. In this respect the doses in the animal studies are very high.

    Vitamin C is protective against strychnine and tetanus toxins in large amounts in animals.
    Of course, additional human research is needed.

    1. Chris says:

      Very old studies, and one just a comment. Since there are only titles, what compels us to skip vaccinating for tetanus and just treating with Vitamin C. Provide a review that compares the effectiveness of treating versus preventing tetanus.

      Again, why do you hate the thought of actually preventing a disease? Provide the PubMed indexed study showing the DTaP vaccine is worse than getting tetanus.

    2. Chris says:

      Don’t you think those folks would have been better off getting a tetanus booster? Obviously preventing tetanus is much better than trying to treat it.

      So why are you trying to tell us that it is bad to prevent tetanus?

  7. “What declination of sanitation caused <a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1177963/"<measles to return to Japan with over eighty deaths?"
    There probably wasn't a decline in sanitation during this time. Sanitation is not the only thing that affects general health and the immune system. It is just one factor that was prominent during the great depression and war in general.

    Malnutrition as an underlying cause of childhood deaths associated with infectious diseases in developing countries

    Conclusions: It is clear that despite the limitations of each study,malnutrition plays an important contributing role insome of the most common causes of mortality in children. The findings also suggest that the risk ofmortality associated with malnutrition may not be
    equivalent for all conditions or across all age groups.Clarifying these relations has implications for plan-ning and evaluating programmes. If the relationbetween malnutrition and cause-specific mortalitydiffers between diseases then the potential impact onchild survival of programmes that successfully reducethe prevalence of malnutrition may differ in areaswith different primary causes of death.This review also shows that despite threedecades of work considerable research still needs tobe done. Comparatively few studies have beenconducted using designs that can adequately capturethe associations between pre-existing nutritionalstatus and the subsequent risk of mortality fromdifferent diseases. Population-based, longitudinalstudies that carefully monitor nutritional status andcause-specific mortality are needed to quantify betterthe risk of death associated with malnutrition.Moreover, the relation between the different com-ponents of malnutrition — wasting, stunting, andmicronutrient deficiencies — need further study so that
    their contribution to child mortality is betterunderstood. Such information could help in design-ing intervention programmes that promote thesurvival of children.
    http://www.who.int/bulletin/archives/78(10)1207.pdf

    As the authors of this artice state, this area needs a lot more study. However:
    "It is clear that malnutrition plays an important contributing role."

    - – -
    "And I am still waiting for the data prior to 1990 that the introduction of the MMR vaccine in 1971 caused autism to rise in the USA."
    -I don't believe that autism is caused by vaccines. Is this someone else's quote?

    1. Chris says:

      “Malnutrition as an underlying cause of childhood deaths associated with infectious diseases in developing countries”

      Is Japan a developing country? So did it experience a surge of malnutrician? The paper I cited, Measles vaccine coverage and factors related to uncompleted vaccination among 18-month-old and 36-month-old children in Kyoto, Japan, says:

      According to an infectious disease surveillance (2000), total measles cases were estimated to be from 180,000 to 210,000, and total deaths were estimated to be 88 [11,12]. Measles cases are most frequently observed among non-immunized children, particularly between 12 to 24 months.

      Also, is Wales a developing country? How about the USA in the 1950s? Was Olivia Dahl malnourished, even though they lived in the country with plenty of home grown food? Her father, <a href="http://thegallopinggardener.blogspot.com/2013/05/roald-dahls-garden-openings-this-summer.html"Roald Dahl loved his garden, and even planted a special flower garden in her memory.

      I’m sorry, I ask about the MMR before 1990, because it seems that most dislike it due to Wakefield’s “study.” Even Dr. Gordon. Many don’t seem to realize that it was being used outside of the UK for almost two decades.

      Though, this makes me wonder why you are making a big deal out of nutrition and sanitation for diseases. You do seem to have something against preventing diseases. To the point of getting American history in the 1950s mucked up, pointing to TB bacteria killed in petri dishes, sanitation (doesn’t do a bit of good to prevent measles, mumps, etc), thinking tetanus can be treated with vitamins (sorry, that paper is terrible), and claiming that there is not reporting (when the VAERS data did catch problems with the RotaShield vaccine).

      Also, the diseases causes other bad things aside from death. There is also permanent disabilities like deafness, blindness, paralysis.

      What is your point? And why do you get so many facts wrong? Do you sell supplements?

  8. MadisonMD says:

    Dr. Jay:

    Vaccines are a very, very likely trigger to genetic predisposition to certain diseases. This is acknowledged by real scientists and you know it. I will not do your homewortk for you. The studies are easy to find.

    I don’t know it. The CDC doesn’t know it. Please enlighten us, but please not with single preliminary studies. In fact, I think we have an medicine-science disconnect here. You see, most scientists realize that the vast majority of hypotheses are just plain wrong. That’s why they need to be tested. Even when the hypotheses are supported by one or a small number of studies, they are usually wrong.

    As a fun exercise, let me find you some papers in support just about any old crazy idea. Lets see…
    (1) One of your patients hates chocolate. What should you advise? Eat it anyway– A LOT. With chocolate you get a higher likelihood of Nobel prize and by inference higher IQ. NEJM–didn’t you know?
    (2) Perhaps you care for a disturbed teen whose parents like to listen to Johnny Cash. Bad idea, obviously [Sorry DG-- that one is from Wayne State]
    (3) Maybe you always wondered why your neighbor’s gout occurs periodically Ask no more Please advise him to avoid rich foods during waxing gibbous.

    That was fun. The point is, if you take each and every hypothesis or each preliminary study as fact, the odds are extremely high that you are wrong. Sure, more investigations could follow to verify or not, but most will not. For a finding to be solid enough to change medical practice the evidence needs to be substantial. Perhaps you have not yet read Bradford-Hills paper on establishing a cause-effect relationship? Highly recommended. If you change standard practice based on preliminary evidence, poor evidence, or unsubstantiated evidence, or a warped sense of cause-and-effect your practice will not be optimal.

    What we have today–the standard– is the best we know. True, it would be nice to have the luxury of a 1000 years of research to improve and optimize. But people are getting sick now and we need to do the best we can– even while engaging in science to improve the art of medicine.

    I have no set vaccine schedule but vaccinate according to the specifics of a patient’s medical needs. That’s how all medical care should be delivered.

    How about this, then. You have a healthy neonate whose 5-year old brother has PDD-NOS and no other health issues. You will be following the neonate for the next five years. The child will be entering daycare in 3 months. The parents trust you and agree to follow your recommendations. What vaccines does the child get and when? What are this patient’s medical needs? [Please feel free to openly assume any other clinical facts that bear on your decision]

    You know nothing about what I really do.

    I was trying to find out. But your responses on this point have been very opaque.

  9. Measles and Failed Herd Immunity

    Can someone explain to me why the measles vaccine doesn’t always work, despite a high vaccination of 90% in the US?

    “Although the United States has a high vaccination rate of 90 percent, “measles is extremely infectious and very good at finding those few people who aren’t vaccinated,” Schuchat warned.”
    -Dr. Anne Schuchat, director of the National Center for Immunization and Respiratory Disease at the CDC.
    http://consumer.healthday.com/infectious-disease-information-21/misc-infections-news-411/measles-outbreaks-in-2011-were-worst-in-15-years-cdc-663954.html

    This sounds like an excuse and not sound scientific reasoning.
    Aren’t many airborne childhood illnesses extremely infectious?
    Is there another reason as to what is going on?
    -does the measles vaccine have to be made from new strain every year the same as the flu shot?
    -are there several strains to choose from, and is it possible the one they chose wasn’t the most prevalent that year?

    1. Chris says:

      “Can someone explain to me why the measles vaccine doesn’t always work, despite a high vaccination of 90% in the US?”

      Because nothing is perfect. You are falling for the Nirvana Fallacy.

      Ah, I see why you get so much of it wrong. You seem to have some kind of difficulty understanding what you are reading. That article clearly says that measles is very infectious, and that most who got sick were not vaccinated.

      “Aren’t many airborne childhood illnesses extremely infectious?”

      No. Many are more difficult to get than others. Some require repeated exposures, and sometimes the pathogen does not last outside of a body for long. Measles is notorious for hanging around and being infectious a couple hours after someone has left.

      This is why we like preventing measles with getting as many who can a couple of MMR vaccine doses. Why do you think that is a bad idea? Do you have any evidence that the MMR causes more injury than measles? Oh, and stick to the developed world. No more articles from Bangladesh please.

    2. Chris says:

      By the way, the measles outbreaks (like in the Texas church) happen when groups that avoid vaccine gather together. See Implications of a 2005 Measles Outbreak in Indiana for Sustained Elimination of Measles in the United States:

      Of the patients with confirmed measles, 94 percent were unvaccinated, 88 percent were less than 20 years of age, and 9 percent were hospitalized. Of the 28 patients who were 5 to 19 years of age, 71 percent were home-schooled. Vaccine failure occurred in two persons.

      Note that 90% chance of getting protecting from measles with a vaccine is much better than 0% chance of protection with one does not get vaccinated.

  10. MadisonMD says:

    Can someone explain to me why the measles vaccine doesn’t always work, despite a high vaccination of 90% in the US?

    This is hard to answer because of the non-sequitor. Lets try anyway. The MMR vaccine has <a href="http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd-vac/measles/faqs-dis-vac-risks.htm&quot; 95% efficacy for all three viruses in a single dose (therefore better than 95% for measles alone, but lets ignore). With the standard two doses, therefore, 99.75% are expected to be immune. As you say it doesn’t always work –0.25% don’t develop immunity after two doses.

    In a 100% vaccinated population, up to 0.25% of individuals could be infected.
    In a 90% vaccinated population ~89.75% could be infected. Lets just say 90%.

    Now imagine a child gets measles in the 90% vaccinated population. Lets also assume random distribution– there are no pockets of non-immunized children (naughty-naughty, Dr. Jay). That ill child comes into contact with 20 children prior to measles being diagnosed. If only 90% are immune, 2 additional children will catch it. Similarly, each will come into contact with 2 more, leading to 4 new cases and so-forth. Exponential growth and an outbreak of measles. Public health authorities sweep in and attempt to isolate all newly exposed individuals. The unvaccinated children are belatedly immunized. We hope nobody dies.

    Now imagine a child gets measles in the 100% vaccinated population. Only 1 in 400 children could catch it. In order to get exponential outbreak, the sick child would need to expose 800 other children prior to diagnosis– an improbably high number.

    Hopefully that’s clear.

    This sounds like an excuse and not sound scientific reasoning.

    Are you sure you would recognize sound scientific reasoning?

    Aren’t many airborne childhood illnesses extremely infectious?

    Yes.

    Is there another reason as to what is going on?

    What is going on? You mean measles outbreaks? If that’s what you mean, then no, there is no other reason.

    -does the measles vaccine have to be made from new strain every year the same as the flu shot?

    No. Influenza is different.

    -are there several strains to choose from, and is it possible the one they chose wasn’t the most prevalent that year?

    No.

  11. I might be misunderstanding you. Are you saying a 90% vaccination rate of MMR doesn’t provide herd immunity? ie. Doesn’t prevent outbreaks, and that only a 100% vaccination rate would?

    1. Chris says:

      For something as infectious as measles, the vaccination rate needs to be 95%.

    2. Chris says:

      Again, your knowledge of the diseases, vaccines and basic history is quite shallow.

      Please explain why you are not keen on preventing measles with the MMR vaccine. Tell us why it is bad to prevent a disease, but okay dokay to pump a person full of stuff to treat it.

    3. Chris says:

      By the way, I have posted the direct link to measles in Japan for you at least three times. I can tell you did not read it with that question. Here is a direct quote from it (and no, I will not link to it again, I have pointed it out to you enough, it is up to you to actually read it):

      “Vaccine coverage in excess of 95% interrupts endemic transmission of measles in many countries, but achievement of such coverage almost always requires great collaborative efforts. [2]“

    4. MadisonMD says:

      Are you saying a 90% vaccination rate of MMR doesn’t provide herd immunity?

      I hope you can see from my example above that this depends on the average number of exposures that occur during the infectious phase. Children in daycare and school will easily expose more than 20 others. So 90% isn’t enough.

      only a 100% vaccination rate would?

      You probably could get there with less than 100% vaccination rate. As Chris says, public health officials estimate 95%. But again, this depends on the number of children each child comes into contact with.

  12. Jay Gordon says:

    This is why I come here, MadisonMD. Thank you for the measles stats exposition.

    Dr. Hickie–I have seen very little malignancy in private practice. Two kids with ALL, two with retinoblastomas, three with brain tumors, one incredibly rare pulmonary malignancy, one Wilms and one boy with osteogenic sarcoma.

    That feels like blessedly few kids with cancer in 34 years of a busy practice. I love pediatrics. I’m curious, what’s your experience with incidence of malignancy in private practice?

    Liz, thank you for bringing in Diekema.

    David, this site’s threading is really fouled up.

    Harriet and David and others–I do what I do and I acknowledge my mistakes when I make them. I’ll try to catch up on comments this weekend. The days are as busy as I’ve ever seen them. Not to brag too much, but I made a nice pick up on a retrocecal appy Monday morning. But … that’s my job.

  13. Jay Gordon says:

    MadisonMD says–”Perhaps you have not yet read Bradford-Hills paper on establishing a cause-effect relationship? Highly recommended.”

    Thank you. I had not read that in many years and the refresher course was well worth it.

    Imagine if other doctors had listened to those whacky docs whose experience showed them that smoking was connected to cardiovascular disease and pulmonary disease. Instead of waiting decades for proof. (That analogy is so awful that I’m embarrassed to present it. But I sort of like it: Brave maverick doctor … or perhaps dumb maverick doctor. Oh, well.)

    MadisonMD, perhaps you don’t care, but I appreciate your posts. Are you a Badger?

  14. MadisonMD says:

    Ah, smoking. Yes. This is also a good example of ignoring evidence because of a lobby influencing the scientific discourse, coupled with smokers who are strongly disinclined to believe the evidence. But, I think the strongest connection was with lung cancer.

    Well, thanks for the kind words. I am a badger. Good luck and I hope you also think about the children who are not your patients as you ‘make things up.’

  15. cphickie says:

    Ok, let’s just summarize medicine (science-based) versus medicine (Gordon-based)

    1. Science-based medicine: physician takes a complete history, performs exam and recommends treatment based on current science-based treatment guidelines, including discussion of risks/benefits. If patient disagrees with plan, physician spends time explaining risks vs benefits of deviating from science-based recommendations. If patient’s requested course of treatment severely deviates from standard of care, physician may ethically terminate doctor-patient relationship

    2. Gordon-based medicine: physician takes a complete history (perhaps, but maybe not since it really isn’t critical to treatment recommendations), performs exam (hopefully) and recommends treatment based on either (1) physician’s gut feeling (rather than on science-based treatment guidelines) and/or (2) what the patient (or parent of patient if patient is a minor) wants. Risks versus benefits of deviating from current science-based treatment guidelines are ignored or even disparaged, with (if physician is named Jay Gordon, MD, FAAP, based on multiple postings) no science-based justification for deviation from standard of care.

  16. WilliamLawrenceUtridge says:

    I’m astonished Dr. Jay needed an explanation of that nature to grasp why herd immunity is important. Perhaps that was a flaw in the training of pediatricians more than 30 years ago? Herd immunity and its corrolary of pockets of susceptibility are rather obvious and intuitive concepts, and was strongly validated in the extinction of smallpox.

    Dr. Jay, do you realize your practice is one such pocket of susceptibility? That by publicly encouraging reduced or slowed vaccination you are actually systematically increasing the risk that your practice will become a locus of vaccine-preventable diseases? That whenever they talk about averages, and herd immunity in broad terms, none of that applies to your waiting room? I hope you take extra precautions, like segregated intake areas, and rapid movement of patients and parents into separate rooms that are ideally sterilized between visits.

  17. jay gordon says:

    Good morning!

    Any good doctor has to individualize treatment for each and every patient. This involves weighing patients and computing doses, deciding which lab work is relevant and taking an excellent medical history and family history. I do all that but “make it up as you go along” is not the best phrasing. I just copied and pasted David’s notion. Individualizing care is a far better way to say it.

    I am ceaselessly amazed that a “thank you” merits unpleasant responses from some of you. What are you thinking?

    Look at what you have here! It’s fantastic and so valuable.

    Why do you let some people trash it? Dr. Gorski runs this site and were he to tell me that he felt my posts and opinions were disruptive to the point of diminishing the site’s value to others and that he wanted me to leave, I would respect that. I feel that there are some here who do just that: They change the tenor of the conversation and add so little.

    1. WilliamLawrenceUtridge says:

      “Individualizing treatment” in a science-based way means “taking the best science and adapting it”. It doesn’t mean “taking the unfounded worries of your wealthy, over/under educated patients and using them as a starting point to selectively review the literature to justify the undermining of the most successful public health tool ever to be created”. How do you know what dose to give? What labs are you possibly basing your dosing on? Do you conduct follow-up tests in which you check each child’s antibodies and keep giving an escalating dose until you get a reasonable titre? I mean, you are individualizing your care towards the parent’s fears, not the best health needs of the patient or society. Your starting point and your process are both irrational, how do you expect to arrive at a good result?

      It’s because we don’t think your “thank you” is sincere, we think you’re arrogant, and we think you’re using it as a cover for the fact that you haven’t changed your mind, you’re just trying to distract us from the fact that you’re avoiding some rather decent questions.

      Dr. Gorski is, as he puts it, a nigh-absolutist on free speech. He shuts people down over disruptive language, and activities, not poorly-thought-out post hoc rationalizations for pandering to a patient you should be educating.

  18. Chris Hickie says:

    Do you have any patients like this in your practice, Dr. Gordon:

    http://www.healio.com/pediatrics/journals/pedann/%7Bb09dbfc1-b28f-4701-b42c-527bb369f62b%7D/a-3-year-old-girl-with-eye-pain

    Would you even be willing to call CPS on a family like this?

  19. MadisonMD says:

    From his responses here, I infer that Dr. Jay practices good medicine when the risks/benefits are tangible. It is easier to flout guidelines when they are intangible. He apparently does not wish to provide details of his recommendations for specific cases–which is his right. (Would this embarrass him to non-vaccinating parents or put him at risk with regulatory authorities? Probably not, but he must have his reasons).

    I expect that this discussion has made him perhaps just a bit more inclined to vaccinate. He apparently cannot be converted to an ardent advocate for eradication (which, Dr. Jay would ultimately save the most lives from disease, rare deaths, and also eliminate rare complications of vaccinations–you are in the best position to make a difference among us on this point.). The most I can hope for is he will provide a few more vaccinations and this discussion would ultimately prevent the death of some child (not necessarily one of his patients and not even necessarily now).

    Otherwise, I have wasted my time. Back to work.

  20. Jay Gordon, MD, FAAP says:

    Dr. Hickie–I have no patients like this in my practice but I have, unfortunately had to call CPS to report problems mildly similar. I have families whose absolutist attitudes about antibiotic use and other medical intervention are at odds with mine. If I see that this is endangering their child’s health and they will not change, I must call the authorities. I have done so in the past. You’re not going to believe this one but . . . I’ve actually been consulted by the California Medical Board regarding vaccines, testified against a physician diluting vaccines and consulted with CPS on difficult cases.

    DrMadison–You are not wasting your time. I recommend that families with one ASD child either give no vaccines to the second or wait until that second child is at least two years old and clearly developing neurotypically and normally. The risks of that plan and the lack of proof that it’s better for the child or the family are extensively discussed and revisited at every single visit. You couldn’t be more correct in talking about herd immunity and the obligation of every practitioner to consider this in vaccine discussions. I do. And I still have reached the conclusion that in families with ASD vaccines carry more risks than benefits.

    1. Lawrence says:

      @Dr. Jay – how do your reconcile your duty to public health with you maintaining a reservoir of disease vectors (i.e. your patients) in your own community?

      If there was an outbreak of measles in your area, would you ask your patients to return to your office to catch up on all of their vaccinations?

      If not, why?

    2. WilliamLawrenceUtridge says:

      You have officially passed the Penn & Teller Bullshit Rubicon.

      I recommend that families with one ASD child either give no vaccines to the second or wait until that second child is at least two years old and clearly developing neurotypically and normally.

      Honestly, why would you bother? I mean, you’ve said some stupid things in your posts, some truly irrational, offensive to reason things, and if you weren’t so arrogant and self-satisfied with your own illusory brilliance you might see it. But why would you worry about vaccines and autism when this specific hypothesis has been tested for years and come up empty? Is it some sort of elaborate cover for social darwinism to try to eliminate autistic genes from the gene pool? I can’t think of any other reason for you to selectively increase the risk of death or sterility for children on the basis of autism.

      I can see why you got called a fuckhead over at Respectful Insolence, after seeing you drape yourself in the mantle of science and patient protection, to see you say, without irony, something as incredibly unfounded as this is baffling. I mean, I’ve heard that they didn’t used to emphasize vaccines during pediatrics in decades past, but did they not teach you anything? Did you attend a correspondence school or something? Did you cheat your way through the exams, or were you related to the dean? Did your parents donate a wing to the school?

      You couldn’t be more correct in talking about herd immunity and the obligation of every practitioner to consider this in vaccine discussions. I do.

      No you don’t, because you’re an arrogant and deluded, willfully ignorant practitioner. Your basis on deciding when to vaccinate and how to vaccinate is based on absolutely nothing rational and you’re apparently too deluded to realize it. Is it the autism groupies? Have you had a stroke or head injury since your internship? Was your supervisor Andrew Weil or something? Are you trolling? Is Poe’s law in effect?

  21. Chris Hickie says:

    So….it’s not ok to dilute vaccines, according to the California Medical Board, but they are ok with you not giving vaccines and proclaiming it for all to see?

  22. Jay Gordon, MD, FAAP says:

    Dr. Hickie–Yes. State law allows parents to make these choices and appears to give doctors wide latitude also. In January 2014 the CA law changes and requires signed informed consent from HCP and parents.

  23. Jay Gordon, MD, FAAP says:

    MadisonMD–I stumbled upon these words of a Badger in this morning’s AAP “SmartBrief” email. (Dr. Hickie, I will forward that email to you if you’d like . . . By the way, I’m going to stop annoying you with that non-FAAP detail because I believe you really did resign from the AAP for good reason even if we disagree.)

    “The ultimate test of man’s conscience may be his willingness to sacrifice something today for future generations whose words of thanks will not be heard.”
    – Gaylord Nelson,
    American politician

  24. Jay Gordon, MD, FAAP says:

    Lawrence asks (quite reasonably): “@Dr. Jay – how do your reconcile your duty to public health with you maintaining a reservoir of disease vectors (i.e. your patients) in your own community?

    If there was an outbreak of measles in your area, would you ask your patients to return to your office to catch up on all of their vaccinations?

    If not, why?”

    I reconcile that public duty with my responsibility to each individual child with great difficulty. And not always comfortably. I do not regard my kids as “disease vectors.” To be so, they’d have to carry a particular disease, not just be potential carriers. (I looked that up, by the way, to make certain I defined it correctly.)

    If there were an outbreak of measles in my area, I would notify all of my families and tell them that I recommend a measles vaccine. If they choose not to receive that shot they will be excluded from school for the duration of the outbreak and will also undoubtedly earn the ire of other parents.

  25. Chris Hickie says:

    That’s rich–ou reviewing a doctor accused of diluting vaccines. So, that doctor made his money by not vaccinating, tricking parents and fraudulently billing, whereas you make your money by not vaccinating, tricking parents and pseudoscience shilling. Almost the SSDD.

  26. “why are you trying to tell us that it is bad to prevent tetanus?”
    -Chris

    I’m not trying to tell you that it is bad to prevent tetanus. I believe everyone should have their shots. It’s just that not everyone has access to free vaccinations, such as those living in Bangladesh, South Sudan and other third world countries.

    Cheap vitamin c could be an option for those people.

    1. Chris says:

      Um, really? Actually, wouldn’t it be better to provide vaccines to those folks?

      Would you tell the Gates Foundation to provide vaccines or intravenous vitamin C treatment to those areas? Which would be cheaper and more effective? Provide verifiable documentation that “Cheap vitamin c could be an option for those people” instead of tetanus boosters.

    2. WilliamLawrenceUtridge says:

      Not everyone has access to vaccines, and your response is to prioritize keeping large stocks of vitamin C in all the places where they don’t have access to vaccines?

      Do you not see the problem there?

  27. lilady says:

    I am absolutely convinced, if Dr. Jay’s history of posting on Respectful Insolence for the past 6-7 years is any indication, that Dr. Jay will not in any way change his practices of “listening to mommy intuition” and his not-based-in-science “opinions” about vaccines.

    Last year he posted on his website that Prevnar (to prevent invasive and deadly S.pnuemoniae infections) was “too new for me to recommend”. Prevnar was licensed in 2001 and 12 years after licensing, Dr. Jay hadn’t done any research on the vaccine:

    http://www.immunize.org/vis/vis-pcv.pdf

  28. lizditz says:

    I had forgotten about Lawrence Palevsky, another vaccine- and science-rejecting pediatrician.

    He has his own fan page on Whale.to–never a good sign.

    http://www.whale.to/v/lawrence_palevsky.html

  29. Krebiozen says:

    It seems clear to me that Dr. Jay is putting his patients at a considerably increased risk of morbidity and mortality by fiddling with a vaccine schedule that has been very carefully put together by people who know what they are doing. Given the relative rarity of VPDs in the US at present, and the additional relative rarity of serious sequelae to these diseases, I imagine he thinks his tinkering is a moderately safe bet. Is it worth it to bring in the wealthy, vaccine-fearing, naturalistic-fallacy-swallowing parents Dr. Jay panders to? You bet it is.

    Or is it?

    I thought calculating a ball-park figure for that increased risk might be interesting. Taking measles alone, let’s assume he encourages, or supports the poor decisions of, 1,000 parents each year to avoid vaccinating their children with MMR. I don’t know if this is an underestimate or an oversestimate, but I doubt it’s more than an order of magnitude off.

    There were 200 cases of measles in the US in 2011, about 100 of them in children 10 years of age or under (I can’t find the precise figures). There are approximately 4 million births each year, so there must be about 40 million children aged 10 or under. So the risk of a child of this age contracting measles is (very) approximately 1 in 400,000. All things being equal, the risk of one of Dr. Jay’s hypothetical 1,000 unvaccinated patients being one of these children in any given year is about 1 in 400, making Dr. Jay’s gamble a fairly safe one, though not as safe as he assumes, I suspect.

    However, all things are not equal since 65% of those who contracted measles were unvaccinated (another 31% had unknown vaccination status, but I’ll ignore this for now). In the USA as a whole, MMR uptake is 92% with only 8% not vaccinated at all. I calculate the risk of an unvaccinated person contracting measles was therefore 31 times greater than an unvaccinated child contracting measles*.

    This increases Dr. Jay’s odds of one of his patients getting measles in any given year to more like 1 in 13, with the chances of one of his patients being hospitalized with measles at about 1 in 200, getting pneumonia due to measles 1 in 580, death from measles up to 1 in 12,000, encephalitis 1 in 35,000. Can you imagine the media frenzy and subsequent effects on Dr. Jay’s career should this unfortunate scenario come to pass? It makes one shudder to think of it, it does.

    Let’s put this in perspective by comparing it with another, “it will never happen to me”, scenario that society both frowns upon and for which it imposes severe penalties: DUI.
    A driver with an alcohol concentration of 0.15 or greater (that’s impaired reflexes, reaction time, and gross motor control, staggering and slurred speech drunk) is about 25 times more likely to be involved in a fatal car accident than a sober driver. Since the average fatal accident rate in the US is 1.27 fatalities per 100 million miles traveled, a drunk driver will have about 1 fatal accident every 3 million miles. He has a 1 in 13 chance of a fatal accident if he drives 39,000 miles.

    If my assumptions and calculations are correct (I have gone over them several times today to check, but I am by no means infallible), I calculate the risk of one of Dr. Jay’s (hypothetical?) unvaccinated patients contracting measles is about the same as that of a very drunk driver being involved in a fatal accident if he drives 39,000 miles. The risk of one of Dr. Jay’s patients contracting measles and dying is about the same as a very drunk driver being involved in a fatal accident if he drives 120 miles, less than the average drive home from a bar, I would estimate.

    * Take 100,000 patients, with 920,000 (92%) vaccinated. If 1,000 of them get measles, with 650 (65%) of these unvaccinated and 350 (35%) of them vaccinated , this makes the proportion of vaccinated patients getting measles 1 in 368, and the proportion of unvaccinated getting measles 1 in 12, making the unvaccinated 31 times more likely to get measles. There must be a better way of calculating this, but this seems accurate enough for my present purposes.

  30. Krebiozen says:

    Dammit, a typo escaped my mutiple proofreads – it should read, ” I calculate the risk of an unvaccinated person contracting measles was therefore 31 times greater than an vaccinated child contracting measles”.

    1. Krebiozen says:

      In the cold light of day I noticed another typo. My last sentence should read “The risk of one of Dr. Jay’s patients contracting measles and dying is about the same as a very drunk driver being involved in a fatal accident if he drives 120 miles, more than the average drive home from a bar, I would estimate.”

  31. Boston Hygiene and Sanitation in 1657

    “so are you arguing that sanitation was better in 1657 Boston than it was in 1930s/1950s Boston? I would very much like to see some evidence for that claim.”

    “Also, I’d like you to expand on your comment that the 1657 outbreak was not as deadly as the 1930s/1950s. How did you come by that conclusion?”
    Measles Appears in Boston
    In Boston, John Hull wrote in his diary that “the disease of measles went through the town,” but fortunately there were very few deaths.
    http://www.historyofvaccines.org/content/timelines/measles
    There was an epidemic, and there were very few deaths. Therefore, not very deadly.

    The article “Health in England (16th-18th c.)” actually proves my point exactly. Overcrowding, lack of sanitation and malnutrition caused many deadly epidemics.
    http://chnm.gmu.edu/cyh/teaching-modules/166

    “In 1563, 1603, 1625 and 1665, about one fifth of the population of London died in plague outbreaks. In 1665, one of the deadliest years, 80,000 people died in the capital city.”
    Between 1563 and 1665, London was overcrowded, and had very poor sanitation.
    Boston in comparison had a much smaller population, a more wealthy population on average, ate better, and had better sanitation.

    Boston in 1650 had a population of 2000. http://www.iboston.org/mcp.php?pid=popFig
    At the same time, London had a population of 350,000. http://www.londononline.co.uk/factfile/historical/

    In the early 1600s, large numbers of natives were decimated by virgin soil epidemics such as smallpox, measles, influenza, and perhaps leptospirosis,[5] against which they had no immunity.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Massachusetts

    The settlers already had acquired natural immunity to measles, so were not affected much by it.

    Wars occurred in:
    -the mid-1630s (Pequot War)
    -the 1670s (King Philip’s War)
    War can obviously leave an area with less farmers and less fresh food.
    The 1650′s were war free.
    There is no mention of dysentery. Being a “river community”, it would have had a continuous fresh water supply for a long time.

    The area was characterized as having:
    -Suitable harbor facilities for trade and the growth of a prosperous merchant class.

    Smallpox in Boston

    Boston had epidemics of smallpox in the past, but it wasn’t until 1721, after the introduction of the sugar trade to their ports, did the first real deadly outbreak occur. Before this, it had only decimated the native populations, killing 90% of them, who of course had no immunity.

    In 1617-1619, smallpox reportedly killed 90% of the Massachusetts Bay Native Americans.[6] The epidemics’ high mortality resulted in extensive restructuring of native politics.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Massachusetts

    1633 Colonial Epidemic
    A smallpox epidemic hit Massachusetts, affecting settlers and Native Americans; among the casualties were 20 settlers from the Mayflower, including their only physician.
    http://www.historyofvaccines.org/content/timelines/smallpox
    The population at this time was around 1,200, and only 20 (1.7%) people died during this smallpox epidemic.

    Boston 1720 – pop. 12,000 (www.iboston.org/mcp.php?pid=popFig)
    5,889 (49%) Bostonians had smallpox, and 844 (14%) died of it.
    7% of entire population died.
    http://ocp.hul.harvard.edu/contagion/smallpox.html

    It is of interest that the sugar trade came to Boston in the 17th century. As sugar slowly but surely became an increasing part of their diet, so did poor nutrition. Processed sugar is highly toxic to the body and has been implemented in numerous diseases including cancer, and it is well known that it weakens the immune system.

    The Triangular Trade came to Boston in 17th century. When operations of the local merchants grew, they discovered that New England colonies could replace England in the exchange of goods. Ships from Boston carried rum made in New England to Africa to trade for slaves that were then brought to Caribbean plantations, where molasses (liquid sugar) was purchased and brought back to New England to make rum. The New England route was shorter and therefore faster to complete than the traditional European one.
    http://www.boston-tea-party.org/triangular-trade.html

    The article “Health in England (16th-18th c.)” mentions a time during the industrial revolution. A time of overcrowding, lack of sanitation and malnutrition in large cities. As always, as population grow, sanitation becomes a problem.
    Many people worked in underground coal mines where they became vitamin D deficient.

    Vitamin D is crucial for the functioning of the immune system.
    “a therapeutic dose of vitamin D showed that vitamin D administration resulted in a statistically significant (42%) decrease in the incidence of influenza infection[15].”
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3166406/

    Tuberculosis
    “vitamin D has also been employed as a treatment for tuberculosis as well as for general increased protection from infections[7].”
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3166406/

    Measles back then, to the settlers at least, was what it is today – a mild childhood infection.
    Of course there will always be immunocompromised and malnourished children, even in the west. After all, America currently has 15% of its population living below the poverty line.

    Undernutrition as an underlying cause of child deaths associated with diarrhea, pneumonia, malaria, and measles (2004)
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15213048
    Am J Clin Nutr. 2004 Jul
    “The RR of mortality because of low weight-for-age was elevated for each cause of death and for all-cause mortality. Overall, 52.5% of all deaths in young children were attributable to undernutrition, varying from 44.8% for deaths because of measles…and efforts to reduce malnutrition should be a policy priority.”

    I am not against vaccines. I just think it’s interesting to look at disease from the perspective of nutrition.

    1. WilliamLawrenceUtridge says:

      …except there’s no indication that North Americans are nutritionally deficient. The factor that places individuals at greatest risk of vaccine-preventable disease is failure to vaccinate.

  32. Chris says:

    Then be clear about the time and place. It is quite clear your cherry picking your information to fit your preconceived conclusion. Seventeenth century Boston has absolutely nothing to do with the above article. In fact the statistics were done so poorly then that if you must rely on archeology and historical records, you have no way to make a conclusion on something like disease and nutrition. Especially if you decided to include the native population, that had already been mostly wiped out from disease (read 1493 by Charles Mann.

    Also, you have a tendency to really screw up history, so it would be better if you actually learned more about it. Here are some suggestions in context with disease (from the Excel file where I keep track of the books I have checked out of the library, so the formatting might be wonky, and why the Dewey Decimal number is included):

    303.4 DIAMOND 1999 Guns, germs, and steel : the fates of human societies / by Diamond, Jared M. Book
    614.4 C3332P 2010 Inside the outbreaks : the elite medical detectives of
    614.43 M8338B 2007 The blue death : disease, disaster and the water we dri
    614.49 M233P Plagues and peoples / by McNeill, William Hardy, 1917- Book
    614.49 WILLS 1996 Yellow fever, black goddess : the coevolution of people and plagues / by Wills, Christopher. Book
    614.541 C8837A 2006 The American Plague: The Untold Story of Yellow Fever, the Epidemic That Shaped Our History
    614.514 J6375G The ghost map : the story of London’s most terrifying e
    614.51809 B2797G 2004 The great influenza : the epic story of the deadliest plague in history / John M. Barry.
    614.51809 KOLATA 1999 Flu : the story of the great influenza pandemic of 1918 and the search for the virus that caused it / Gina Kolata.
    614.521 F684H 2011 House on fire : the fight to eradicate smallpox /
    614.52109 W6851P 201 Pox : an American history /
    614.532 H246M Mosquitoes, malaria, and man : a history of the hostili
    614.54909 Of29C 2005 The Cutter incident : how America’s first polio vaccine led to the growing vaccine crisis / Paul A. Offit.
    614.54909 Os45P 2005 Polio : an American story / David M. Oshinsky.
    614.57 OL19V 2010 Viruses, plagues, and history : past, present, and future

    Also, this book notes some interesting things with the effects of vitamins (one of the first chemotherapy drugs was kind of an “anti-vitamin”):
    616.994 M8968E 2010 The emperor of all maladies : a biography of cancer /

    Now get yourself to a library and start reading!

  33. Chris says:

    Now let me go through your rather confused post:

    “In Boston, John Hull wrote in his diary that “the disease of measles went through the town,” but fortunately there were very few deaths.
    ….
    There was an epidemic, and there were very few deaths. Therefore, not very deadly.

    Compared to what? It is all about time and place, and the “data” is a diary reference. Not exactly valid.

    Then you post a bunch of random stuff about the poverty of England during between 1500s and 1700s, and then try to compare to Boston. Different places, different times, and the statistics were not exactly accurate. Ah, I forgot a very interesting and important reference that I have not yet added to my library spreadsheet: At Home by Bill Bryson. It includes history, and some very interesting insights in both the UK and USA (he has resided in both).

    Of course, you also totally ignored the difference between the Native American population and the Europeans. This is why you should definitely read the books by Jared Diamond and Charles Mann (1491 is also a good read, along with 1493, I hope you know the significance of those titles).

    You posted the same article, Vitamin D and the Immune System twice. I can assume you had another cite in mind for tuberculosis. But, you really have not established that modern American, Japanese and European children suffer from vitamin deficiencies. And those are the ones mostly discussed getting measles in the above article.

    “Measles back then, to the settlers at least, was what it is today – a mild childhood infection.”

    That is very very wrong. Child mortality was very high then, and you are mostly revealing your total lack of understanding of history. It is just as bad as saying that the American economy in the 1950s was as bleak as the 1930s.

    Of course there will always be immunocompromised and malnourished children, even in the west. After all, America currently has 15% of its population living below the poverty line.

    All the more reason that if your congresscritter was one of the ones who today decided to defund healthcare refrom, then write them. Tell them that it is very important to provide vaccines to all children to prevent very expensive hospitalizations, and to make sure all children get enough to eat.

    And get to the library to do some reading!

    (apologies if this is the second time, my post disappeared!)

  34. How do you explain the examples of low death rates from measles and smallpox in Boston before vaccination, and before the start of the sugar trade?

    1. weing says:

      Incomplete information. The American Indians must have been gorging on sugar then.

    2. Todd W. says:

      @science011001

      How do you explain the examples of low death rates from measles and smallpox in Boston before vaccination, and before the start of the sugar trade?

      You haven’t provided any actual death rates (these are usually in the format X deaths per 1,000 cases or something similar). In that 1657 measles outbreak, exactly how many cases were there, and how many deaths? You have not provided those numbers, so it is impossible to judge whether measles was “less deadly” in that outbreak compared to any post-vaccination outbreaks. Once you have those numbers, then we can discuss some more.

    3. Chris says:

      Your lack history knowledge. The fact you don’t realize there was limited literacy, plus very little government and absolutely no computers. History is written by the victors and the literate.

      Have you visited your local library?

  35. The settlers had natural immunity, which meant low death rates in an environment of good nutrition and sanitation (These are 3 fundamental requirements for good health, which of course are no guarantee). The American Indians lacked immunity.

    1. Honestly, science011001, are you really that ignorant?

      The settlers were the *survivors* of the common Old World diseases such as smallpox, measles, mumps, diphtheria, etc., and thus had immunity as survivors–thus, “natural immunity”.

      The New World indigenous people were entirely naive, immunologically speaking, to these diseases which spread in front of the settlers like a shock wave, stripping the New World of the vibrant and thriving cultures long before the settlers moved in.

    2. Chris says:

      We don’t know anything except that there was a measles epidemic in Boston in 1657 with some random diary entry saying there were not many deaths.

      Now, if you are going to continue to push this one epidemic then you will need to provide the following data for Boston in the years:

      total population
      number of cases of measles
      deaths from measles

      Until you provide that data, your comments on it mean exactly nothing. And while you are looking that up, also search for the cause of the 1847 Whitman Massacre.

  36. John Hull was a well educated and wealthy silversmith who helped start First Church in Boston. He was also well acquainted with childhood death, as 3 of his children died within 2 weeks of being born (see below). When he records that not many children died from the measles epidemic, why would this information not be accurate?

    This is the only source of the history of measles in Boston that I have found. If you have a more accurate account of the measles epidemic, or an indication that John Hull’s private diary is not a reliable source of this information, please provide the details. If you cannot do this, the account stands.

    “The children of John and Judith Hull were as follows: On January 23, 1653 twins, Elizabeth and Mary, were born but they lived barely a week. Mary died on January 30th and Elizabeth died on February 1st. On November 3, 1654 the Hull’s had a son named John who died less than two weeks later on November 14th. On February 14, 1658 their daughter Hannah was born, she was the only child to survive to adulthood. On August 6, 1661 a son Samuel was born but he died within two weeks on August 20th. (Hull, Private Diary, pp.143-144).”
    http://www.coins.nd.edu/ColCoin/ColCoinIntros/MAMintDocs.studies.html

    1. Chris says:

      That is the problem, you created a hypothesis based on very limited data. Next time, try to make sure that you actually know the history. Have you even cracked a book about the colonial era?

      Plus you are also cherry picking. There is a table of epidemics. Here is a cut and paste of part of it, you seemed to ignore some other decades, look at all of the mortality you missed:

      1617-1619 North America northern east coast Smallpox – Killed 90% of the Massachusetts Bay Indians

      1633-1634 England Smallpox

      1657 Boston, MA Measles

      1674 Cherokee Tribe “European Epidemic” Death count unknown. Population in 1674 about 50,000. After 1729, 1738, & 1753 smallpox epidemics their population was only 25,000 when they were forced to Oklahoma on the Trail Of Tears

      1677-1678 Boston, MA Smallpox 1/5 of the town died

      1687 Boston, MA Measles

      1690 New York Yellow Fever

      1692 Boston, MA Smallpox

      1699 Philadelphia, PA, Charleston, SC Yellow Fever

      1702-1703 St. Lawrence Valley, NY Smallpox

      1713 Boston, MA Measles

      1721 Boston, MA Smallpox

  37. Yes, the low death rate from measles is without stats, however I have provided the stats for smallpox from around the same time, including infection rate, death rate, and population. The same low death rate from smallpox is observed.

    Whitman massacre – “Dr. Whitman, who was attempting to treat them during a measles epidemic for which they lacked immunity”.

    1. Todd W. says:

      @science011001

      the low death rate from measles is without stats

      This statement of yours contradicts itself. If you do not have stats, then you cannot say anything about a “rate”. The only way you can say that there was a low death rate is a) if you have all of the numbers needed (#cases, #deaths) and b) stats from a different outbreak against which to compare it (is it really low? or, as you’re trying to imply, lower than post-vaccination outbreaks). As I said before, a “rate” requires numbers and usually is in the format of X deaths per 1,000 cases. Until you provide that, you cannot make your claim that measles was milder before vaccination. (Well, I suppose you can make the claim, but it will not be a valid claim, nor particularly intelligent to do so.)

      The diary entry you provided has no numbers, nor any context against which to place it. How is “few” defined? Those were very different times, so “few” to him may have meant “only” 5 deaths in an outbreak of 1,000. What can be discerned from his entry, though, is that death was something that was expected and something to fear from measles.

    2. Chris says:

      And you are also making a claim about nutrition, and you have no data for that either.

      So what exactly are you trying to prove? Perhaps that the Native Americans were somehow inferior because 90% of them were wiped out in Massachusetts before the Puritans arrived. And the Puritans then had to be taught by a lone survivor (who had been kidnapped a while before, only to find all of his family gone) how to farm on the fields left by the now dead native population?

  38. I am not cherry picking data.
    I was looking for measles/smallpox epidemics with low death rates – yes.
    However I was also looking for a place with the following characteristics that supported the low death rates:
    -population with prior exposure and natural immunity to common childhood illnesses (from London).
    -low population
    -adequate sanitation
    -good nutrition (diet with little or no processed food)
    -a time when there was no current war (1657)
    -a shipping port to provide a wide range of food items
    Boston fitted these criteria. That is why I chose it.

    Major Worldwide Epidemics
    http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:QUZg0R6T0lQJ:www.flutrackers.com/forum/attachment.php%3Fattachmentid%3D113%26d%3D1144447331+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a

    1657 Boston, MA Measles – no data
    1677-1678 Boston, MA Smallpox 1/5 of the town died.
    This was during King Philips War
    June 1675–April 1678
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Philip%27s_War
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Massachusetts
    1687 Boston, MA Measles – no data
    1692 Boston, MA Smallpox – no data

    The sugar trade started in the 17th Century.
    I couldn’t find an exact date. Nutrition will decline after this as more processed sugar is introduced.

    And no, I haven’t read any history books on the subject. I’m relying on historical based websites, with references provided. Again, if you find a factual problem, feel free to point it out.

    1. Chris says:

      The websites are only snapshots, not the context. The error is that you are not connecting them together to a cohesive narrative. Get yourself to the library.

  39. Sugar and Polio

    I also recommend some reading on the effects of sugar on the immune system:

    Diet Prevents Polio
    by Benjamin P. Sandler, M.D., and published in 1951 by The Lee Foundation for Nutritional Research, Milwaukee, WI
    Benjamin Pincus Sandler
    http://www.amazon.com/DIET-PREVENTS-POLIO-Benjamin-Sandler/dp/B001OMOO6Y/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1379900329&sr=8-1&keywords=Diet+Prevents+Polio

    In 1938, the only laboratory animal that could contract polio by experimental inoculation was the monkey. Rabbits were immune to it.

    Physiologists have stated that the normal blood sugar level of 80 mg. holds true for all mammals.

    Rabbits made to catch polio for the first time:
    Researchers lowered the blood sugar of the rabbit to subnormal values with insulin injections, and then
    inoculated the rabbit with polio virus. This was done and it was found that the rabbits became infected
    and developed the disease.

    The details of these experiments were published in the American Journal of Pathology, January, 1941.

    Eating processed sugar causes a blood sugar spike, followed by low blood sugar. This is the time that an individual is susceptible to polio if exposed to polio virus.

    Researchers have always known that polio strikes with its greatest intensity during the hot summer months. Dr. Sandler observed that children consume greater amounts of ice cream, soft drinks, and artificially sweetened products in hot weather. In 1949, before the polio season began, he warned the residents of North Carolina, through the newspapers and radio, to decrease their consumption of these products. That summer, North Carolinians reduced their intake of sugar by 90 percent– and polio decreased by the same
    amount. The North Carolina State Health Department reported 2,498 cases of polio in 1948, and 229 cases in 1949 (data taken from North Carolina State Health Department figures).

    1. Todd W. says:

      That summer, North Carolinians reduced their intake of sugar by 90 percent

      What is the source for this claim, other than a book? I searched PubMed for studies by Sandler looking at polio and sugar and was unable to find any. You’d think such information would be perfect for publication in a decent journal if there were actually merit to it. Sorry, but for matters of science, a book is not a particularly good source. Actually, I looked for studies on polio and sugar by any author and did not find a single one linking high sugar intake with greater risk of polio infection.

      By the way, you know what else happens in the summer? Lots of susceptible children gathering in close proximity to each other at swimming pools, providing ample opportunity for the virus to spread. It’s interesting to note that warmer climates don’t see these sorts of summer spikes, but rather have a relatively constant level of disease.

    2. Chris says:

      “Diet Prevents Polio
      by Benjamin P. Sandler, M.D., and published in 1951 ”

      Is from http://www.mercola.com/article/sugar/polio_sugar.htm

      It seems that Science011001 is a Mercola fan.

  40. There was such a low death rate that apparently no-one bothered to keep any records of it. The 20 deaths from smallpox, (out of a population of 1200) were recorded.

    He used the word fortunately:
    “fortunately there were very few deaths”

    fortunately:
    used for emphasizing that something good has happened, especially because of good luck

    As in “it was good that only a few babies died from measles.”
    He is possibly thinking of the horrible epidemics of London where they were not so lucky..

  41. WilliamLawrenceUtridge says:

    Science011001, why on earth would we look into a time when people were dying from far higher rates of infections rather than in the present when vaccination has made measles a vanishingly rare cause of death? Rather than attempting to put together a long, possibly cherry-picked, almost certainly inaccurate line of reasoning based on a time when they didn’t distinguish diseases on the base of objective test and lacked the understanding of the germ theory of disease – doesn’t it make more sense to look at the incredibly low death rate due to measles post-vaccination, and say “hey – people should vaccinate”?

    I mean honestly, when your newest citation is from 1951, why pretend you’re saying anything rational, and why choose “science” as a name except as a distraction from how profoundly unscientific your claims are?

  42. “It’s interesting to note that warmer climates don’t see
    these sorts of summer spikes, but rather have a relatively constant
    level of disease.” This is because with the hotter months, there is
    an increase in the consumption of ice cream and soft drinks. This
    would not be the case in tropical areas. The Doctor himself didn’t
    do any research because it had already been done. Besides, he was
    too busy getting the word out, trying to save as many lives as
    possible. Here is the rabbit study: The production of neuronal
    injury and necrosis with the virus of poliomyelitis in rabbits
    during insulin hypoglycemia m J Pathol. 1941 January; 17(1):
    69–80.5. PMCID: PMC1965163
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1965163/
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19970545 Also: Body composition
    assessment in Taiwanese individuals with poliomyelitis (2011)
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21704790 -examined adults from
    42-57y. -high sugar diet is associated with obesity and
    hypoglycemia, leading to increased risk of polio. By the way, an
    effective treatment for polio was discovered in 1911 by an
    Australian nurse, 40 years before the vaccine was introduced.
    http://www.archives.qld.gov.au/researchers/exhibitions/qldfirsts/26-50/pages/30.aspx
    I just watched the movie called Sister Kenny, based on the true
    story. Amazing how quickly we forget.
    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0038948/ The Doctors didn’t evaluate
    her techniques to see if they worked, because that would undermine
    their authority. The government site says that her treatments are
    still being used in some countries of the world today.

    1. Chris says:

      Oh, good grief. You are being completely clueless. Believe it or not but better sanitation brought on polio. It delayed contact with the virus after the the immunity acquired from the mother wore off. Here is a website that would help you understand it better (since reading Polio: An American Story by David M. Oshinsky is way past your attention span):
      http://bioteach.ubc.ca/quarterly/polio.pdf

  43. History has a lot to teach us about health.

    Did you know, an effective treatment for polio was discovered in 1911 by an Australian nurse, 40 years before the vaccine was introduced?
    http://www.archives.qld.gov.au/researchers/exhibitions/qldfirsts/26-50/pages/30.aspx
    I just watched the movie called Sister Kenny, based on the true story. Amazing how quickly we forget.
    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0038948/

    The Doctors didn’t evaluate her techniques to see if they worked, because that would undermine their authority. The government site says that her treatments are still being used in some countries of the world today.

    1. Chris says:

      Big deal. It is called “physical therapy.” It is very expensive and should be avoided by getting vaccinated.

      And sometimes the thinking that physical therapy can cure much goes much too far. Ms. Kenny was skimming on that border.

  44. Severe measles in Vietnam (1976)
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1272113
    The effects of measles epidemic are described.
    “children began to die in quick succession. With the supply of extra high-protein food this trend was soon reversed.”

    Yes, the mortality figures are questioned, however, it was clearly noted that diet reversed the trend of children dying during a measles epidemic. Can we learn nothing here?

  45. A recent example of the mildness of the measles virus:

    Measles in the UK, 1998 – 2013

    “In England, one million schoolchildren who missed MMR jabs are to be targeted by a vaccination plan aimed at curbing the growing threat of measles.”
    1 million kids didn’t get vaccinated, and the death rate remains unaffected after the Wakefield MMR scandal. (No, I don’t believe vaccines cause Autism.)
    http://www.hpa.org.uk/web/HPAweb&HPAwebStandard/HPAweb_C/1195733835814

    Swansea measles: Epidemic tops 1,000 cases (30 April 2013 )
    “a post-mortem examination into the death of a man who died while suffering from measles proved inconclusive.”
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-22350001
    The only death they could find from measles was inconclusive.

    If someone catches measles, the Mayo Clinic recommends giving the person vitamin A.

    Vitamin A. People with low levels of vitamin A are more likely to have a more severe case of measles. Giving vitamin A may lessen the severity of the measles. It’s generally given as a large dose of 200,000 international units (IU) for two days.
    http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/measles/DS00331/DSECTION=treatments-and-drugs

    I also remember reading that girls who catch measles as a child have less chance of getting ovarian cancer. The vaccine provides no such protection.
    -I haven’t verified this claim yet.

    1. Chris says:

      Please tell us how Vietnam and the UK are economically relevant.

      Also, explain why it is better to treat a disease instead of preventing it.

      And do you have a point?

      Other to always be completely and totally wrong by cherry picking your data? For example you said:

      Swansea measles: Epidemic tops 1,000 cases (30 April 2013 )
      “a post-mortem examination into the death of a man who died while suffering from measles proved inconclusive.”

      Now, from an article two months after that one, July 1, 2013:
      http://www.itv.com/news/wales/update/2013-07-01/pneumonia-caused-by-measles-killed-swansea-dad/

      Which says: “Pathologist Dr Maurizio Brotto said Gareth was “very underweight” at just 7st 7lbs and that he died from giant cell pneumonia caused by measles.”

      Now about Vitamin A, please show your data that North American and European children suffer from nutritional deficits, especially Vitamin A.

  46. Kenny had an 80% recovery rate without the use of medical devices, as reported in Time magazine. This was compared to people spending months on boards, having legs in braces, bones fused, and using the iron lung, which left the majority of patients with a disability to one extent or another.

    Sister Elizabeth Kenny was violently opposed by Orthopedic surgeons for decades, before her methods were even evaluated. Early trials were done halfheartedly without Sister Kenny’s instruction, and quickly written off as being ineffectual.

    Sister Kenny in Minnesota
    http://www.oandp.com/articles/2008-11_09.asp
    The O&P EDGE, office administrator, Margaret Opdahl Ernest, recalls that when she first accepted the position, “I didn’t know her that well at that time. I didn’t know whether she was a quack or not, but I found out in a hurry that she knew what she was doing.”
    “Patients idolized her.”

    “three prominent physicians in Minneapolis-St. Paul, Minnesota—Miland Knapp, John Pohl, and Wallace Cole—were impressed and took a chance on her, despite being shunned by some of their colleagues for this decision.”

    “A 1942 TIME magazine article noted that Kenny’s amazing 80-percent recovery rate through her methods “forced [the doctors] to recognize her unorthodox work.”

    According to a 1943 article in the Journal of Bone and Joint Surgery, “The Kenny Treatment for Infantile Paralysis: A Comparison of Results with Those of Older Methods of Treatment,” by Robert Bingham, MD, “Patients receiving the Kenny treatment are more comfortable, have better general health and nutrition, are more receptive to muscle training, have a superior morale, require a shorter period of bed rest and hospital care, and seem to have less residual paralysis and deformity than patients treated by older conventional methods. The Kenny treatment is the method of choice for the acute stage of infantile paralysis.”

    The Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA) endorsed her methods in 1941. She became a celebrity and in a 1952 Gallup poll even edged out former First Lady Eleanor Roosevelt as the most admired woman in America.

    1. Chris says:

      It is still neurodevelopmental therapy, which is the catch term for physical, speech and occupational therapy. The last time I had to pay it with case when it was not covered by insurance because the kid was past a certain age it was $80 per hour. More recently it was covered by insurance because he was taken to a hospital with the symptoms of a stroke (turned out to be something else), the cost was over $150 per hour.

      Yeah, it is real but pricey. Plus I got to see lots of people in the waiting room who needed physical therapy for lots of reasons, including stroke.

      Your high light of one “maverick” nurse is still pathetic. Prevention of polio is much better than the promotion of physical therapy to treat it. Plus it has nothing to do with nutrition.

      Do you have a point?

  47. “Please tell us how Vietnam and the UK are economically relevant.” I never said they were.

    “explain why it is better to treat a disease instead of preventing it.” I never said treatment was better than prevention. I’m in favor of vaccines.

    “do you have a point?” Yes, nutrition is a factor with childhood illness as stated by the WHO.

    “pneumonia-caused-by-measles-killed-swansea-dad” 1 death from measles. More would be expected from a vaccinated population as it is only 97.5% effective after 2 doses.

    “Now about Vitamin A, please show your data that North American and European children suffer from nutritional deficits, especially Vitamin A.”
    Vitamin A deficiency doesn’t cause polio, it is successfully used to treat it. Hypoglycemia can lead to polio if someone is exposed to the virus, as demonstrated in the rabbit studies.

    1. Chris says:

      I see absolutely no PubMed indexed evidence in that reply.

      For some reason you persist on posting random links that have no relationship to actual scientific data. Why is that? What is your point? Where is the evidence that malnutrition is causing rampant cases of measles and polio in North America, Japan, and Europe?

  48. Comic – The History of Polio
    http://www.scq.ubc.ca/polio.pdf
    -pg 8.
    “when you’re not living in filth, you can get a lot further in life without contracting me. That meant fewer people were immune.”
    -less immunity caused by less exposure to the virus.
    -when an epidemic occurred, it was therefore much more virulent.

    As stated before, it is only a problem if the individual has been consuming processed sugar, causing hypoglycemia, as demonstrated in the rabbit research. Prevention can be achieved through vaccination, or alternatively through diet. As the average American consumes roughly 47 pounds of cane sugar and 35 pounds of high-fructose corn syrup per year, the vaccine would be a better option.

    1. Chris says:

      Citation needed. Seriously. What part of the late 1800s polio outbreaks noted in that comic were caused by too much sugar?

      Are you really that dense you can’t understand a cartoon version of history?

    2. Chris says:

      Plus since polio now occurs only in Pakistan and Africa, are those places with hug sugar consumption. Shouldn’t the Taliban be executing candy vendors instead of those who provide vaccines?

      Do tell us, with actual evidence.

  49. Sister Kenny never charged for her services. She dedicated her life to helping people, and saving lives. The clinics were supported by the community who obviously saw the great value in the work they were doing.

    “In 1943, the clinic became the Sister Kenny Institute and was managed and funded by the newly formed Sister Kenny Foundation.”

    Dr. Frank H. Krusen became the new director of the Sister Kenny Foundation. He restored community support, and his medical guidance kept the institute on the forefront of rehabilitation medicine even after the 1955 polio vaccine dramatically reduced the number of polio cases in the U.S.

    In 1975, the Sister Kenny Institute merged with the Abbott-Northwestern Hospital Corporation, because it was becoming hard for small, freestanding hospitals to stay afloat. As of 2012, the Kenny Institute remains a prominent center for rehabilitation treatment and research in Minnesota.

    http://www.mnopedia.org/thing/sister-kenny-institute

    1. Chris says:

      In 1975, the Sister Kenny Institute merged with the Abbott-Northwestern Hospital Corporation, because it was becoming hard for small, freestanding hospitals to stay afloat. As of 2012, the Kenny Institute remains a prominent center for rehabilitation treatment and research in Minnesota.

      We don’t live in Minnesota, so our insurance was billed more than a hundred dollars per hour for neurothevelopental therapy.

      Seriously, how does paying for intensive physical therapy better than prevention? Do you have a point other than blithely believing in movie fantasies?

    2. Chris says:

      You do realize that 1975 was a very long time ago. We have these called “vaccines” now to prevent polio.

  50. WilliamLawrenceUtridge says:

    Kenny had an 80% recovery rate without the use of medical devices, as reported in Time magazine. This was compared to people spending months on boards, having legs in braces, bones fused, and using the iron lung, which left the majority of patients with a disability to one extent or another.

    Do you know what has a near-100% rate of making people never need Kenny’s services? Vaccination.

    Seriously, we’re talking about the benefits of vaccination as a way of preventing a debilitating disease, and you’re trying to promote the benefits of treatments for people already paralyzed? You know who was really idolized? Salk. Because he stopped people from needing iron lungs and months of physiotherapy.

    Also, what does the recovery rate of protein-deficient Vietnamese children have to do with vaccination within non-starving North American and European children? I mean, yeah, starvation and vitamin deficiency is a bad thing. But what are you really proving when you say “starving and vitamin-deficient people get sick more than people who aren’t”? That’s kinda basic information that’s already known, just as it is recognized that being well-nourished is not a substitute for vaccination or a guarantee of immunity. “Nutrition can prevent polio”? Really? Was the 39-year-old FDR, vacationing in Canada and of wealthy stock, somehow nutrient deprived?

  51. Chris,

    you seem to lacking a very basic knowledge of nutrition and the immune system. I suggest you go down to your local library and get out a few books on the subject.

    High sugar consumption is just one factor in being susceptible to polio. Without good nutrition, you will be lacking many of the essential vitamins and minerals necessary for a healthy functional immune system. Other environmental factors can also weaken the immune system, such as parasites for example, where sanitation is poor.

    Here’s a few studies to get you started:

    Review: Vitamin B6: Deficiency diseases and methods of analysis (2013)
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24035968
    “Vitamin B6 (pyridoxine) is closely associated with the functions of the nervous, immune and endocrine systems.”

    Vitamin C Is an Essential Factor on the Anti-viral Immune Responses through the Production of Interferon-α/β at the Initial Stage of Influenza A Virus (H3N2) Infection (2013)
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23700397
    “L-ascorbic acid (vitamin C) is one of the well-known anti-viral agents”

    Effects of Dietary Zinc Manipulation on Growth Performance, Zinc Status and Immune Response during Giardia lamblia Infection: A Study in CD-1 Mice (2013)
    “Zinc supplementation avoided this weight loss during G. lamblia infection and up-regulated the host’s humoral immune response by improving the production of specific antibodies. These findings probably reflect biological effect of zinc that could be of public health importance in endemic areas of infection.”

    1. Chris says:

      Actually, I do understand it. Much more than you, especially when all you do is cherry pick obscure citations and miss read history. Seriously a Pakistani and Korean journals with very very low impact factors?

      So where is that citation that North American, Japanese and European kids are all undernourished? Surely there was this huge drop in Japanese nutrition to cause this, from Measles vaccine coverage and factors related to uncompleted vaccination among 18-month-old and 36-month-old children in Kyoto, Japan:

      According to an infectious disease surveillance (2000), total measles cases were estimated to be from 180,000 to 210,000, and total deaths were estimated to be 88 [11,12]. Measles cases are most frequently observed among non-immunized children, particularly between 12 to 24 months.

      Do show that there was some kind of food crisis to cause all that measles and those deaths with real citations. Make sure the journal at least has an impact factor greater than one.

      Also here are a couple more books to add to your library list:
      615.5 B3286S 2007 Snake oil science
      500 Se36L 2009 Lies, damned lies, and science

  52. Malnutrition means “Lack of proper nutrition”.

    The correct levels of protein, carbohydrates, fats, vitamins and minerals are required to give the body the best chance of good health. If you eat a diet like this, this is known as good nutrition. Processed sugar is not nourishing to the body. It is very harmful. If you eat processed and refined foods for long enough, malnutrition will occur. The more empty calories you eat, the less room there is for nutritious food – nutrition will be offset.

    So without good nutrition, you will suffer from mal-nutrition, by definition.

    Yes, FDR was malnourished. He experienced hypoglycemia from eating processed sugar, which lowered his nutrition and immune status temporarily, while at the same time being exposed to the polio virus.

    Tumors Disable Immune Cells by Using Up Sugar
    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/06/130606140452.htm
    This article describes how tumor cells use up sugar, leaving the immune system T cells without sufficient sugar (hypoglycemic) to operate.
    “when they kept sugar away from critical immune cells called T cells, the cells no longer produced interferon gamma, an inflammatory compound important for fighting tumors and some kinds of infection.”

    Body composition assessment in Taiwanese individuals with poliomyelitis (2011)
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21704790
    -examined adults from 42-57y.
    -high sugar diet is associated with obesity and hypoglycemia, leading to increased risk of polio.

    1. Chris says:

      “Yes, FDR was malnourished. He experienced hypoglycemia from eating processed sugar, which lowered his nutrition and immune status temporarily, while at the same time being exposed to the polio virus.”

      Citation needed. Do tell provided documentation on his diet and that diagnosis.

      Was Olivia Dahl also malnourished, even though she lived on a lovely estate with a kitchen garden? Her father, Roald Dahl, was an avid gardener.

  53. “Do you know what has a near-100% rate of making people never need Kenny’s services? Vaccination.”

    William,

    This is what the Gates Foundation has inflicted on India with its oral polio vaccine: “47,500 new cases of NPAFP. Clinically indistinguishable from polio paralysis but twice as deadly”.
    The oral polio vaccine was banned in the U.S. over a decade ago.

    Can you please explain to everyone why this has not been investigated?

    “Furthermore, while India has been polio-free for a year, there has been a huge increase in non-polio acute flaccid paralysis (NPAFP). In 2011, there were an extra 47,500 new cases of NPAFP. Clinically indistinguishable from polio paralysis but twice as deadly, the incidence of NPAFP was directly proportional to doses of oral polio received. Though this data was collected within the polio surveillance system, it was not investigated. The principle of primum-non-nocere was violated. The authors suggest that the huge bill of US$ 8 billion spent on the programme, is a small sum to pay if the world learns to be wary of such vertical programmes in the future.”
    http://www.issuesinmedicalethics.org/pdfs/202co114.html.pdf

    1. Chris says:

      And here we have the standard anti-vax argument. Science01101 has revealed her/his true form, and that he/she is getting her/him talking points from the standard anti-vax websites (like Natural News). By the way the NPAFP stands for “Non-Polio Acute Flaccid Paralysis.” In a country like India with lots of other problems with health and poverty, there are other reasons for paralysis, which in that case was over dosing the OPV.

      From your link: “The relationship of the non-polio AFP rate is curvilinear with a more steep increase beyond six doses of OPV in one year.”

      That standard is just three. Oh, and it is discussed here:
      http://scienceandskepticism.wordpress.com/2012/07/27/newsflash-not-following-world-health-organization-guidelines-on-polio-vaccinations-is-a-bad-thing/

      And yes, the IPV vaccine has been proposed to globally replace OPV, when there is enough funding. And fools don’t go around repeating doses just because they can’t keep the paperwork straight.

      And North America, Japan and Europe are not exactly like India. When my brother lived there in a nice neighborhood in New Dehli they had to put their water through a distiller.

    2. WilliamLawrenceUtridge says:

      Can you please explain to everyone why this has not been investigated?

      Because it’s a recognized compromise that has to be made because treating polio is complicated? The oral polio vaccine is an effective live attenuated vaccine; as a live vaccine it produces strong, long-lasting immunity, and it is also much easier to transport, handle and deliver – particularly in a country like India with a large population that lives in rural areas and lack reliable electricity. You can leave the oral vaccine at room temperature, don’t need needles or other special tools to deliver it (a couple drops on a sugar cube is the preferred method), and it is generally safe. However, it does face the risk of reverting to the deadly form of polio, because as a live virus it mutates as it divides. So yes, iatrogenic polio is a risk of the live attenuated OPV. It’s not a secret and I’m not sure why you are treating it like one.

      The killed polio vaccine is much safer, but much less effective and much harder to deliver. It requires needles and multiple injections (which in India, would require 5 billion needles or means to sterilize them, which is problematic given the lack of universal and reliable access to electricity to run an autoclave or boil water). The vaccine is relatively delicate, and requires a continuously-refrigerated supply chain – which requires a lot of ice, or a reliable electricity supply to run a fridge.

      So why is the OPV used? It’s much easier to administer, much easier to transport, and much more effective even if you get fewer than the recommended number of doses.

      And while India no longer has the endemic virus, Pakistan and Afghanistan both have endemic polio. Given the fact that the Afghanistan-Pakistan border is pretty porous, and Pakistan is right next to India, it’s really, really important to make sure that India’s polio vaccination program is strong because they are one of the countries at risk for it becoming endemic again if the vaccine program weakens.

      But hey, how could you possibly know all of this? I mean, clearly I’m some sort of magical person rather than a dude with a library card. Or perhaps you merely don’t think it matters whether Indian kids are paralyzed or die? Please, keep up your support for nutrition, it’s an important part of staying alive. But perhaps you might consider that vaccination might also be important to people who would rather keep breathing, or be able to walk.

  54. William asked “Do you know what has a near-100% rate of making people never need Kenny’s services? Vaccination.”

    Clearly wrong. The 47,500 people suffering from paralysis, (clinically indistinguishable from polio paralysis) will need Kenny’s services. This is a better alternative to casts, splints, and iron lungs.

  55. You don’t just waste vaccines, especially when they are expensive, and funding is limited.
    The most likely reason for the increased usage is due to “poor antibody response to OPV”.

    Poliomyelitis in Oman. I. The last outbreak? (2001)
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11600090
    “This study demonstrates that immunization with three to six doses of OPV did not prevent infection with wild poliovirus. In those children with sub-optimal response to OPV, infection resulted in paralytic poliomyelitis.”

    1. Chris says:

      Twelve year old citation where the abstract conclusion’s last sentence was: “The outbreak remained localized in one village, indicating that the outbreak control measures were effective.”

      You seem to be big on cherry picking.

    2. Chris says:

      More reading for you, suggested to me after my brother spent a couple of years living in India:
      305.891411 VAR Being Indian : inside the real India

    3. Chris says:

      Also look up Hanlon’s Razor.

    4. Chris says:

      Oh, sorry, the correct bit is to look up Grey’s Law. It is a variant of Hanlon’s Razor. Sorry for the mistake.

      At least I acknowledge when I am wrong.

    5. WilliamLawrenceUtridge says:

      1) That’s old, an polio is no longer endemic to Oman thanks to vaccination

      2) You are committing the logical fallacy of “perfect solution” – if a solution isn’t perfect, it must be worthless. This is false. Vaccination, even if it causes iatrogenic polio, is still orders of magnitude safer at population levels than letting wild polio remain endemic.

      3) “Suboptimal response to OPV” can be caused by many things, including simply not responding to the OPV due to the random nature of immugenicity; this is why we try for herd immunity, because there will always have a small number of people who do not become immune, and we can rarely be sure who these people are in advance (and confirmation through titres would add to the cost far more than merely ensuring an adequate vaccination campaign).

      4) Do you have any indication that the suboptimal response in this village was due to your “when all you have is a hammer” option of nutritional deficiency?

      5) Did you notice the final line of the abstract, “The outbreak remained localized in one village, indicating that the outbreak control measures were effective”? Do you know what “outbreak control measures” consist of? Ring vaccinations – vaccinate and revaccinate the people around those with the illness. Not nutritional support.

  56. “It seems that Science011001 is a Mercola fan.”
    “You seem to be big on cherry picking.”

    argumentum ad hominem

    1. Chris says:

      Actually, you even have that wrong. I am not saying you are wrong because of what you are, but because of where you get your ideas and your “data.” Like a 1951 book that Mercola cited and some very obscure low impact journals.

      So where is the evidence to support malnutrition of FDR, and the kids in North America, Japan and Europe?

    2. WilliamLawrenceUtridge says:

      Pointing out that you cite or believe Joe Mercola is not ad hominem. It’s a recognition of the quality of your sources, and the credulity of your beliefs.

      “I think your study is wrong because you are stupid” is ad hominem.

      “You cited Joe Mercola, therefore you aren’t worth talking to” is recognition that you aren’t worth talking to because you don’t understand enough about science, medicine or biology to recognize how wrong and hypocritical Joe Mercola is.

  57. “So where is the evidence to support malnutrition of FDR, and the kids in North America, Japan and Europe?”

    I’ve already responded to that. Search my comments for malnutrition.

    ‘…because of where you get your ideas and your “data.”’
    -90% reduction in polio after a 90% drop in sugar consumption before the introduction of the vaccine, supporting the evidence of susceptibility in hypoglycemic (malnourished) individuals. There’s nothing wrong with the data.
    The North Carolina State Health Department reported 2,498 cases of polio in 1948, and 229 cases in 1949 (data taken from North Carolina State Health Department figures).

    You’re just not satisfied that there is no formal research that has been performed on humans.

    Ok, lets design the study. Lets perform a randomized, double-blind placebo controlled trial.
    We’ll take 6000 people. 2000 will act as unvaccinated controls with no diet intervention, 2000 will be vaccinated with no diet intervention, and 2000 will be unvaccinated with strict dietary guidelines to avoid processed food and sugar.

    Now lets expose all 6000 to the polio virus and see what happens.

    1. Chris says:

      You did not provide a real citation for North Carolina, and still that was in the 1940s.

      You made a claim about FDA by just saying:

      Yes, FDR was malnourished. He experienced hypoglycemia from eating processed sugar, which lowered his nutrition and immune status temporarily, while at the same time being exposed to the polio virus.

      That is just a blanket assertion. Where is the verifiable documentation that this was true?

      Now come up with a real peer reviewed PubMed indexed study showing that kids in North America, Japan and Europe are consistently malnourished dated in this century.

      We’ll take 6000 people. 2000 will act as unvaccinated controls with no diet intervention, 2000 will be vaccinated with no diet intervention, and 2000 will be unvaccinated with strict dietary guidelines to avoid processed food and sugar.

      How does that conform to the Belmont Report?

  58. “Also look up Hanlon’s Razor.”
    “Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.”

    I provided a plausible explanation as to why 6 shots of the vaccine were given, which was “poor antibody response to OPV”.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11600090

    Before calling someone stupid, I hope you can adequately explain the real reason why 6 shots were given. Please provide your evidence.

    1. Chris says:

      Incompetence. India is the not the same as Oman (look at a map!). Especially the terribly poor province of Uttar Pradesh, where the polio eradication was hampered by several other gastrointestinal diseases that cause diarrhea. Think about, if my brother had to distill his tap water in a nice middle class neighborhood in New Dehli, what do you think the sanitation situation is in one of the poorest sections of that country?

      Some reading:
      http://www.ghspjournal.org/content/1/1/68.full

      Which says:

      Faced with long-standing and serious health problems, such as diarrheal diseases, malaria, tuberculosis, malnutrition, and lack of sanitation, communities in UP began questioning why the government regularly provided OPV but seemingly remained inattentive to other urgent challenges. These questions and unmet needs contributed to community suspicion and resistance to polio vaccination.

      This is one reason that you cannot use what happens in India, Pakistan, parts of Africa and similarly developing countries in comparison with North America and Europe, or Japan.

    2. Chris says:

      By the way, I switched it to Gray’s Law: “”Any sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice”

      Though some of the stuff my brother saw from the windows in his New Dehli house were malice. Like people adding extra stories to their houses above what it was supposedly “zoned” for.

      It also does not help that the literacy rate is only 63%, with half of women illiterate. Again, this is why you cannot equate vaccines programs in India with those of North America, Japan and Europe.

  59. “You are committing the logical fallacy of “perfect solution” – if a solution isn’t perfect, it must be worthless. This is false. Vaccination, even if it causes iatrogenic polio, is still orders of magnitude safer at population levels than letting wild polio remain endemic.”

    I’m not looking for a perfect solution. The OPV was estimated to cause polio in 1 in 1000,000. This risk is not ethically justified in the US, so why is it ok for third world countries? The real problem is that the figure is much higher than 1 in 1000,000.

    “One of the reasons they stopped inoculating children with OPV in 2005 was because it caused an outbreak of polio, with dozens contracting the disease each year,” said Gurman.
    http://www.timesofisrael.com/60000-more-children-vaccinated-as-polio-spreads/

    1. Chris says:

      So now you think Israel is the same as India? Is it because they both start with an “I”? You also might try reading the story a bit more closely, and take note it is a news article written by the kids who usually took as little science as possible before becoming journalists.

      It has to do with economics. The OPV is a good solution when there is lots of polio and money is tight. But when the incidence of polio is reduced, and not actually circulating, then it make sense to switch to the IPV. Which is being discussed, it just needs more money. (Also, read about John Salamone’s part of getting the USA to switch from OPV to IPV in Dr. Offit’s book Deadly Choices, it is contended that Barbara Loe Fisher’s actions caused a delay because she caused distrust in parents)

      So how much are you donating to the Rotary to buy IPV instead of OPV?

      And please tell us what nutritional crisis occurred in Japan in around 2000 to cause over eighty measles deaths that are discussed in Measles vaccine coverage and factors related to uncompleted vaccination among 18-month-old and 36-month-old children in Kyoto, Japan. Also provide the evidence that FDR was malnourished, along with what nutrition problems Olivia Dahl had… with verifiable documentation.

  60. “4) Do you have any indication that the suboptimal response in this village was due to your “when all you have is a hammer” option of nutritional deficiency?”

    Village in Sultanate of Oman:
    “Sugar consumption has also increased in developing countries (Ismail et al., 1997); this is also applied to carbonated soft drinks consumption in the Sultanate as recently reported (WHO, 2005).”

    “Although dental caries is declining in developed countries, the situation is not the same in developing countries (Moynihan and Petersen, 2004). Sultanate of Oman is a developing country, and the three national surveys of the prevalence of dental caries in schoolchildren in Oman are in consistent with this concept (Alismaily et al. 1996; Alisamaily e.t.al, 1997, Alismaily et al, 2004). And the prevalence is expected to increase in this country (MOH, 2010).”

    “…in Oman – although they recognised the issue of carbonated soft drinks but there are no guidelines to minimise the effects of these drinks other than recommending reducing the consumption of sugary drinks.”

    “There were three national surveys conducted in Oman to determine the prevalence of dental caries in three group school children. The prevalence was 84.5% in 6 years old children (Alisamaily e.t.al, 1997), and it was 58% in 12 years children (Alismaily e.t.al, 1996). When the same cohort was examined three years later the prevalence increased to 69% (Alismaily et al, 2004). The Mean DMFT has risen from 1.5 to 3.2, and those who were caries free fallen from 42% to 27% (Alismaily et al, 2004).”:

    “the prevalence of dental caries is high in the third of the population. These surveys also expect the prevalence is on the rise (MOH, 2010).”

    http://www.ukessays.com/essays/health-and-social-care/soft-drink-consumption-dental-caries-health-and-social-care-essay.php

    1. Chris says:

      Get a map. Then tell us where in North America, Japan or Europe we will find Oman. You still need to answer this: “Now come up with a real peer reviewed PubMed indexed study showing that kids in North America, Japan and Europe are consistently malnourished dated in this century.”

      And…

      Please tell us what nutritional crisis occurred in Japan in around 2000 to cause over eighty measles deaths that are discussed in Measles vaccine coverage and factors related to uncompleted vaccination among 18-month-old and 36-month-old children in Kyoto, Japan. Also provide the evidence that FDR was malnourished, along with what nutrition problems Olivia Dahl had… with verifiable documentation.

  61. “Nutrition can prevent polio”? Really? Was the 39-year-old FDR, vacationing in Canada and of wealthy stock, somehow nutrient deprived?

    Malnutrition means “Lack of proper nutrition”.

    The correct levels of protein, carbohydrates, fats, vitamins and minerals are required to give the body the best chance of good health. If you eat a diet like this, this is known as good nutrition. Processed sugar is not nourishing to the body. It is very harmful. If you eat processed and refined foods for long enough, malnutrition will occur. The more empty calories you eat, the less room there is for nutritious food – nutrition will be offset.

    So without good nutrition, you will suffer from mal-nutrition, by definition.

    Yes, FDR suffered from the effects of malnutrition – at least temporarily. He experienced hypoglycemia from eating processed sugar, which lowered his nutrition and immune status. Unfortunately for him, he was exposed to the polio virus whilst in this state.

    Tumors Disable Immune Cells by Using Up Sugar
    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/06/130606140452.htm
    This article describes how tumor cells use up sugar, leaving the immune system T cells without sufficient sugar to operate, causing hypoglycemia.
    “when they kept sugar away from critical immune cells called T cells, the cells no longer produced interferon gamma, an inflammatory compound important for fighting tumors
    and some kinds of infection.”

    1. Chris says:

      “Yes, FDR suffered from the effects of malnutrition – at least temporarily. He experienced hypoglycemia from eating processed sugar, which lowered his nutrition and immune status. Unfortunately for him, he was exposed to the polio virus whilst in this state.”

      Go find someone who knows how to read and ask them to explain the phrases “verifiable documentation” and “blatant assertion” mean. How are they different? Which one do we want versus what you are doing.

      Have them explain the difference between “evidence” and “making stuff up out of thin air.”

    2. Yawn.

      Your definition of “proper nutrition” is so broad that anyone can suffer from it. Hence any disease can be blamed on it. The fact that you can’t see how that is problematic to learning anything is probably the most interesting thing about you.

  62. WilliamLawrenceUtridge says:

    I’m not looking for a perfect solution. The OPV was estimated to cause polio in 1 in 1000,000. This risk is not ethically justified in the US, so why is it ok for third world countries? The real problem is that the figure is much higher than 1 in 1000,000.

    Well surely your confidence is based on a reliable source from the peer-reviewed literature?

    As for why it is “ethically” justified in third-world countries, it’s not. It is logistically justified, as I discussed in an earlier comment. The choice is between the far more reliable, easily transported and administered live oral vaccine, with a risk of reversion to dangerous wildtype, versus a safer, but much, much more difficult to transport, administer and achieve herd immunity killed injected vaccine. While one could make an ethical argument of this, realistically it is more accurately a case of having to decide between two suboptimal options – the specific math of which will depend on the unique characteristics of each country. The killed vaccine makes sense in countries with a reliable cold supply chain, the live vaccine makes sense in countries lacking this. Read a book.

    I’ve already responded to that. Search my comments for malnutrition.

    But your take on “malnutrition” is grossly at odds to what actual nutritionists say. For nutritionists, malnutrition is about getting adequate micro and macronutrients, without being so high as to cause obesity. It’s mostly about quantities, with quality being expressed in terms of nutrient density. In this view, processed sugar is not “bad”, it’s merely a low nutrient density calorie source that tends to displace higher nutrient density sources from the diet. A rational approach is to restrict such foods to occasional indulgences (diabetes being an obvious confounding factor).

    Your idiosyncratic approach seems to view processed sugar as an inherent evil, an actual source of harm irrespective the rest of the diet.

    You’re just not satisfied that there is no formal research that has been performed on humans.

    Duh, yeah. We’re not satisfied that you’re making claims without explicit research to support your point – merely correlations that you have personally selected as justifying your point. It’s a common approach taken by quacks and SCAMsters, extrapolating from bench and observational studies (and only those that support their point). Your assertions are unconvincing, and certainly not evidence.

    Now lets expose all 6000 to the polio virus and see what happens.

    You would get sent to prison for an act of terrorism and/or the use of a weapon of mass destruction. Your approach is also inherently unethical since it is known that the vaccine prevents polio infection.

    Before calling someone stupid, I hope you can adequately explain the real reason why 6 shots were given. Please provide your evidence.

    In general vaccines are given over multiple injections because vaccine response is not 100%, but also because vaccination can wane over time, and because booster shots increase the speed and strength of the immune response. As for the specifics, I defer to the experts because I don’t have time to read the hundreds of publications on the topic. Because, unsurprisingly, vaccination is a complicated topic.

    Your claims that sugar consumption increased in Oman are rather meaningless. Population probably increased as well, as did internet use, cell phone use, electricity, clean drinking water, shoe wearing and reduced camel riding. Merely because two things happen around the same time doesn’t prove that one caused the other. Another logical fallacy, post hoc ergo propter hoc. Do any of those sources say “and this caused polio”? Because if they don’t, they are all meaningless. For that matter, what’s your best source that increased sugar consumption leads to polio? I’m not talking “I did some research one afternoon”, I’m talking an article that explicitly links polio and sugar consumption.

    Tumors Disable Immune Cells by Using Up Sugar

    Yeah, polio isn’t cancer.

    Yes, FDR suffered from the effects of malnutrition – at least temporarily. He experienced hypoglycemia from eating processed sugar, which lowered his nutrition and immune status. Unfortunately for him, he was exposed to the polio virus whilst in this state.

    Yet another [citation needed] in a long string of them. What is your evidence that FDR experienced hypoglycemia shortly before being infected with polio, and more importantly – what’s your evidence that polio is in any way associated with increased sugar consumption? Again, real studies, not correlations you’ve selectively put together to justify your belief? And if you’re right, why are you wasting time on this blog? Go publish your convincing evidence in the peer reviewed literature, giving people yet another reason not to consume large amounts of refined sugar!

    Also, correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t polio exist before refined sugar?

  63. devinthayer says:

    I’m not saying that immunological adjuvants don’t work, but I do not see them as a necessity for someone with a healthy immune system. Is there any way I can get vaccines without the adjuvants? If the answer is no, then I must tell you the system is rigged…. probably not for evil ulterior motives, but for resistance to change. Business is business. It’s a cheap way to boost the effects of the vaccine. I think we as a society are missing out on a huge potential market: those who would rather not take adjuvants. Imagine the premiums!

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20029611

    Double dose = immunological adjuvant + vaccine

    I realize this is a specific adjuvant, without aluminum. Sign me up for a double dose of the same medicine if it means I don’t have to be injected with aluminum salts.

    But wait… what if it actually had a reverse effect on H1N1 vaccines?

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22365398

    Hmm…

    It’s a potential cost saver I’d rather not be a part of. Why? Eh… aluminum is toxic, builds up in the brain (if the barrier is bad)… worse when fluoride gets involved. My poor pineal gland. I only get one of those you know? And if there is an equivalent out there with no aluminum… I think we got a winner.

    Problem is… there’s not. Not that I can see, anyway. I don’t see anyone advertising in Google for these double dose non-adjuvant vaccines or even aluminum-free vaccines.

    Is it a conspiracy? I hope so. It would give me something to talk about at the office.

    I think we should all switch to MF-59 like the Europe. I’d be okay with that.

    http://www.whale.to/vaccines/mf59_h.html

    It won’t happen though, we are too in love with Alzheimer’s.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3056430/

    I hope I served to confuse and annoy most of you. Alzheimer’s starts early for you today.

    1. devinthayer says:

      I would also like to say that I will probably still get my vaccinations on my trip to India because I really don’t have a choice. It’s a proven science, and I’ll risk the chances of developing an autoimmune diseases over risking an increase in probability of more immediate death. I might like to stir your imagination into moving society forward with new advances in immunization through newly discovered adjuvants, but I can’t face the I-told-you-so’s when I’m dying from malaria or encephalitis.

      http://www.researchgate.net/post/What_is_the_best_immunologic_adjuvant_for_mice_and_rabbits

      http://www.nature.com/icb/journal/v82/n5/full/icb200475a.html

      http://www.futuremedicine.com/doi/abs/10.2217/ebo.11.8

      Food for thought. I’m ready for the future now. If you really feel strongly against aluminum salts as an adjuvant as I do, push the advances in science further. Make it happen, because I’m sick of waiting, and so should you. Whether this means doubling up on dead viruses in our vaccines or introducing a more efficient and cost-effective alternative with no apparent long term side effects, make the effort and support your cause.

      1. WilliamLawrenceUtridge says:

        Ugh. Your first link is to a question and answer cite, not a peer reviewed article. Your second is from 2004. Your third is about human vaccines, written by a veterinary surgeon. You may feel strongly about aluminum salts, but that doesn’t mean your concerns are justified. The question you might want to ask yourself is – why don’t genuine experts worry about aluminum salts?

        And it turns out there are a lot of vaccines without adjuvants.

        1. Devin Thayer says:

          The third one I just used because it contained the list of ingredients of MF-59. After I posted it, I realized it was just a bunch of hot air. I laughed to myself a little bit, actually because many of the statements have been disproved.

          You missed my point, sir William.

          It was not about how evil adjuvants are but how in need of updating they are. Sure their safety on the masses is relatively high, but its not perfect. They never will be if we are content with them.

          1. WilliamLawrenceUtridge says:

            Nothing is perfect, but the better question is – what real evidence do you have of harm? Because so far, you’ve listed speculations (and errors – though Alzheimer’s disease has been linked to aluminum, don’t believe this is considered credible these days). I can chain together a line of reasoning as well, but merely because I think there’s is risk, doesn’t mean there actually is risk and that we must take action. This is the precautionary principle taken too far, and is responsible for the unnecessary rejection of genetic modification.

    2. Chris says:

      First look up Scopie’s Law.

      Second search this website for information on vaccines.

      1. Devin Thayer says:

        From RationalWiki: [Scopie's Law states: “In any discussion involving science or medicine, citing Whale.to as a credible source loses you the argument immediately ...and gets you laughed out of the room." It was first formulated by Rich Scopie on the Bad Science forum. ]

        Haha. Very funny. I knew it was a junk resource, but I had no idea you were with the Church of Satan. Sarcasm, of course.

        I will probably search more on vaccines. It has peaked my interest since I found out encephalitis is on the list of diseases I could contract while overseas.

        1. David Gorski says:

          From RationalWiki: [Scopie's Law states: “In any discussion involving science or medicine, citing Whale.to as a credible source loses you the argument immediately ...and gets you laughed out of the room." It was first formulated by Rich Scopie on the Bad Science forum. ]

          I don’t know if I was the first to do so (I think I was), but I extended Scopie’s Law to include NaturalNews.com in addition to Whale.to. Call it Gorski’s Corollary to Scopie’s Law. :-)

        2. WilliamLawrenceUtridge says:

          Some reading suggestions:

          - Vaccinethe Controversial Story of Medicine’s Greatest Lifesaver, by Arthur Allen
          - Vaccinated: One Man’s Quest to Defeat the World’s Deadliest Diseases by Paul Offit
          - The Emperor of all Maladies by Siddhartha Mukherjee (not about vaccines, but is good to get a sense of the great help that modern medicine is, specifically regarding cancer)
          - The Great Influenza by John Barry (about influenza, and a great history of medicine as well)
          - Scourge by Jonathan Tucker (about smallpox)
          - Mistakes were made (but not by me), by Carol Tavris and Elliot Aronson (about changing your mind)

          1. Chris says:

            I would also add as good reads on how to evaluate science and scientific studies:
            Snake Oil Science: The Truth About Complementary and Alternative Medicine by R. Barker Bausell Ph.D. (reviewed by Dr. Hall here)
            and
            Lies, Damned Lies, and Science: How to Sort Through the Noise Around Global Warming, the Latest Health Claims, and Other Scientific Controversies by Sherry Seethaler

    3. WilliamLawrenceUtridge says:

      Never cite whale.to, it’s not just a low-quality source, it’s actively, outright deceptive.

      You can get at least some vaccines without adjuvants, but you’d have to look up the specifics, probably on the CDC.

      Adjuvants are used to permit the vaccine to evoke a reliable immune response with fewer viral or bacterial antigens. They are thickeners and localized irritants that prevent the viral particles from being distributed systemically too quickly, and attracting the kinds of immune cells that will digest the antigens in order to stimulate the production of antibodies. Your body is exposed to fewer antigens as a result, vaccines are cheaper, can be produced faster, and in the cases of say, influenza, which is onerous to make, you can get more doses out of each batch. Removing adjuvants would probably lower profits, because it’s likely much cheaper than the antigen to acquire and include. Thiomersal for instance, forced companies to switch from multi-dose vials to single-dose vials, which certainly wasn’t much help for anyone – it costs the companies more to produce (so profits were probably unaffected), it costs health agencies more to buy, and it costs distributors more to acquire and store. And there is no reliable convergence of evidence that adjuvants have adverse health impacts (otherwise they wouldn’t be used).

      Further, adjuvants are heavily studied, and often ubiquitous. Aluminum, for instance, is common throughout the soil, water and food supply, and always has been. Formaldehyde is found in, actually produced by, the body (though it’s used not as an adjuvant, but to kill the bacteria in killed vaccines). Squalene, a thickener, and is produced in the body as well. Adjuvants are not added out of randomness or experimentation, they are heavily studied and included rationally, and adjuvants associated with health risks are unlikely to be included. Whale.to is lying to you (and crazy by the way).

      The first study you cite is in mice. People aren’t mice. The second is specific to aluminum hydroxide, and possibly the H1N1 vaccine – science is specific, and requires multiple converging evidence to support decisions. Further, researchers would review these and other studies to reach their conclusions. The third citation you link to is whale.to and is worse than no citation at all. The fourth is explicitly about a hypothesis – and is thus not proof. The amount of aluminum found in vaccine doses is minute, trivial even, particularly when you consider it is found in food, water and soil in large amounts.

      1. Devin Thayer says:

        I think you really hate whale.to …

        I think it’s funny. Sure its facts aren’t real, but it makes you think… I am so much less paranoid than this author. I feel so much better about myself.

        Please see my comment to sir William regarding the re-statements of my points.

        Beautiful descriptions of the mechanism of adjuvants. Are there safer alternatives than aluminum readily available on the market? I do realize they do not all contain adjuvants, but I’m due for some shots listed on the CDC containing adjuvants.

        The whole vaccine games is an oligopoly. There will be no innovation on current vaccines unless the are pushed like they were with thermasol.

        1. Chris says:

          Just stick to scientific citations indexed at PubMed.

        2. WilliamLawrenceUtridge says:

          Yes, whale.to is deceptive. It’s actually worse than that, it’s so far from science and reason, I feel quite comfortable calling it crazy. They don’t believe in global warming, but do believe planes do not have condensation trails, but chemtrails designed to reduce human population. They oppose fluoridation, vaccination, genetically modified foods, favourably quote Russell Blaylock and Andrew Wakefield, and are so scientifically illiterate as to believe homeopathy works beyond placebo. There’s a reason I hold people in contempt when they continue to cite whale.to. “Making you think” is valid only if you’re presenting true facts and both sides. That’s why science is good, and whale.to is lunatic harm and fearmongering. I don’t think 9/11 truthers and homeopaths are worth listening to, or even pretending they contribute anything of merit to any conversation.

          The question isn’t “are there safer adjuvants than aluminum” (if there were, we would use them by the way). The question is “can we identify any evidence that suggests they are harmful”.

          Your claim of innovation is only valid if we regard the removal of thiomersal as an innovation. It wasn’t. It’s an unnecessary expense. There was no evidence of harm due to thiomersal (which included ethyl mercury, a form excreted by the body far more quickly than methyl mercury, which is the type of mercury proven to cause harm and accumulate to dangerous levels in tissues), no nudge in the incidence of autism after its removal, despite many studies and millions of dollars. It’s pure burden on pretty much everyone but the manufacturers of single-dose vials of vaccines. Innovation comes from science, not antiscientific fearmongering.

          If you really are concerned about vaccines, if you really want to make an informed decision, you will have to, like the experts who sit on the CDC panel, dedicate several decades of your life to reading the primary and secondary scientific literature. And you really must stop reading whale.to, it is corrosive to civil discourse, reason and critical thinking.

  64. “what’s your evidence that polio is in any way associated with increased sugar consumption?”

    William, have you read my comments on the studies performed on rabbits, showing a direct correlation between polio susceptibility and hypoglycemia? Rabbits are immune to polio, unless they have their blood sugar lowered by giving them insulin injections, making them hypoglycemic.

    “Now lets expose all 6000 to the polio virus and see what happens.”
    This was sarcasm. I was highlighting the fact that the human research doesn’t exist because it’s unethical. The study I posted showed that there is a direct correlation between obesity and polio, which supports the idea of a high sugar diet, which is associated with type II diabetes, and hypoglycemia.

    “Before calling someone stupid, I hope you can adequately explain the real reason why 6 shots were given. Please provide your evidence.”
    This was directed at Chris, who has left this challenge unanswered. The reference I posted gave a plausible reason why 6 shots of OPV were given in India against WHO recommendations. I agreed with your explanation. Chris called this idea “stupid”, without providing any evidence against it.

    “correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t polio exist before refined sugar?”
    Poliomyelitis was first recognized as a distinct condition by Jakob Heine in 1840.
    Polio had existed for thousands of years quietly as an endemic pathogen until the 1880s, when major epidemics began to occur in Europe; soon after, widespread epidemics appeared in the United States.[6]
    The first recorded epidemic of polio in the US was in 1894.
    The sugar trade began in the 17th century. Refined sugar makes people much more susceptible to polio. The epidemics did not occur until after this.
    Of course other factors could be associated with this.
    http://www.historyofvaccines.org/content/timelines/polio
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poliomyelitis

    1. Chris says:

      “This was directed at Chris, who has left this challenge unanswered. ”

      You don’t get to decide who responds. And I did answer you.

    2. WilliamLawrenceUtridge says:

      People aren’t rabbits. Rabbits are coprophagic herbivores with no access to refined sugar so perhaps their digestive tract, the primary entry point for the polio virus, works a little different than ours? There’s a reason why animal studies are a starting point for research in humans. Thalidomide is perfectly safe in pregnant rats and a powerfully effective antiemetic in humans, would you recommend it as a form of treatment for morning sickness? Maybe think about that the next time you justify your beliefs based on animal studies.

      The first recorded epidemic of polio in the US was in 1894.
      The sugar trade began in the 17th century.

      And correlation is not causation. Perhaps cross-oceanic sea travel led to increasingly virulent strains? Perhaps random mutations reached a new fitness peak that included increased damage to human nerves.

      Refined sugar makes people much more susceptible to polio. The epidemics did not occur until after this.

      Your first sentence is assertion, not evidence. Your second sentence is as well, but I’ll also point out that you have no damned way of knowing whether it is true. Polio could have multitudes of plagues in the past, people didn’t understand the germ theory of disease. You wouldn’t see many long-term sufferers, they would die. The increasing size of cities permitted, in fact forced, humans to evolve to be resistant to some pathogens, and pathogens in turn to adapt to be more infective (which is why smallpox, among other diseases, was so lethal when introduced to the Americas). You can’t project the current blindly into the past.

      You may find your correlations convincing. I don’t think anyone else here does.

  65. “Go find someone who knows how to read and ask them to explain the phrases “verifiable documentation” and “blatant assertion” mean.”

    I have provided verifiable documentation that the only way to make rabbits contract polio is by giving them insulin injections to make them hypoglycemic.

    Polio epidemics did not start until after the sugar trade began in the 17th century.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poliomyelitis
    http://www.historyofvaccines.org/content/timelines/polio

    1. Chris says:

      Are you now trying to tell us that FDR was one of those rabbits? First FDR did not live in the 17th century. Plus he was not a rabbit. You made a claim about his diet and his health, now provide us the verifiable evidence for that claim.

    2. WilliamLawrenceUtridge says:

      Again, humans aren’t rabbits, and humans are vulnerable to polio even in the absence of hypoglycemia. For that matter, your logic would suggest fattening kids up over the course of the polio season by giving them a cube of sugar every 20 minutes to maintain hyperglycemia.

      And again, correlation isn’t causation – how do you know the polio epidemics weren’t due to increased travel between countries and continents? It was the age of exploration, perhaps an unusually virulent strain evolved in a pocket community of unusually resistant humans, and they exported it during the slave trade?

      Your hypothesis is not convincing.

  66. 88 Measles deaths in Japan in 2000

    “And please tell us what nutritional crisis occurred in Japan in around 2000 to cause over eighty measles deaths that are discussed in Measles vaccine coverage and factors related to uncompleted vaccination among 18-month-old and 36-month-old children in Kyoto, Japan.
    -Chris

    Give me a week to work on this one to see what I can find.

    1. Chris says:

      Oh goody.

      Perhaps you’ll decide that the Japanese kids turned into mice, just like you explaining a study on rabbits is evidence of FDR having some condition.

  67. Chris,

    If you were living in North Carolina in 1948 and had kids, and knew that 2,498 people had caught polio that year, would you follow Dr Sandler’s advice to cut processed sugar from your children’s diet knowing that no vaccine was available?

    1. Chris says:

      You have absolutely no evidence of that. You still have not proved anything, and repeating your nonsense is not evidence. That is about the third or fourth time you made the claim, but provided nothing to show it was other than one person’s opinion (which you never properly cited). You made the claim that FDR had hypoglycemia (which can be a medical emergency), but only provided a study on rabbits. That is not evidence that Roosevelt was ever diagnosed with hypoglycemia.

      Just go away. Because the only thing you are providing us are full out laughter. and that is not an ad hominem but a factual reaction to you cluelessness.

      At least go to the library and pick up some of those books that were suggested.

  68. madisonmd says:

    Dear Mr. science011001,
    You have exhausted your science credits by continuing to spout unscientific nonsense, and essentially learning nothing. This is in spite of many kind attempts by me and others to answer your questions. Depleted of credits, you are now temporarily dubbed Science-Zero. You can refill your credits by reading the books recommended by Chris. Then feel free to come back and ask some more. Good luck.

    MadisonMD

  69. science011001 says:

    ” You have absolutely no evidence of that. You still have not proved anything, and repeating your nonsense is not evidence. ”

    Now your true colors are shining through Chris. You berate people for not following the advice of Doctors, yet you yourself would not follow the advice given the best available evidence at the time. Simply put, you sir are a hypocrite.

    1. WilliamLawrenceUtridge says:

      If “eat less sugar” were the best advice of the time, it would be supported by good quality research that would have been replicated and extended since that time, and would have significant contemporary implications for, if nobody else, type I diabetics.

      You are mistaking “the best advice of the time” with “advice of the time that happens to align with my own beliefs”. I’m pretty sure the advice of public health officials at the time was “avoid contact with swimming pools”. Oh look, it was.

    2. Chris says:

      You’re hilarious.

      I never berated people for not following the advice of doctors. That is something else that you just made up just because I reminded you, yet again, that you made a claim without supporting evidence. You wrote about some dude making a recommendation in 1948 without even providing a link, just an old book. If Big Sugar was the cause of polio, then it would be rampant after the introduction of drinks like the “Big Gulp”, and not even be seen in very very poor countries like Pakistan.

      It is clear you have no idea how science works, and what makes up scientific evidence. Simple logic is something you have not grasped. You make obscure connections on very little data, but refuse the very real connections from real historical facts (the measles deaths in Japan was due to reduced measles vaccination, not malnutrition, and preventing a disease is better than treating it).

      If I am berating anyone, it is you for not answering with real citations and absolutely refusing to understand that what you posted is not real evidence.

      I tried to help by providing you a reading list, but it seems your mind is closed to any kind of education.

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