Oct 08 2012
The antivaccine lie that just won’t die: The claim that shaken baby syndrome is really due to “vaccine injury”
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112 Responses to “The antivaccine lie that just won’t die: The claim that shaken baby syndrome is really due to “vaccine injury””
Vaccines = broken skull.
this is BULLS****.
I think I’m going to be sick.
Thank you for not only pointing out the idiocy of the suggestion that vaccines could cause the kind of cranial trauma seen in his case, but also acknowledging that abuse cases aren’t always clear-cut. As almost all parents can attest, children manage to injure themselves in a stunning variety of ways and for every “thank you dear God” case where the mother rushes over to their fallen child and is felled by the relief of a miraculous lack of injury. And even in cases where the injury is shown to result from violence, it’s not always the primary caretakers who are at fault. Friends, relatives, pets, and strangers can all be the cause of the injuries, so the tendency in the media to fan the fires of a witch hunt in cases of suspected abuse can cause issues.
And, as was the case in the “satanic day care center” trials of the 70s and, more recently in the case of Dr. Charles Randal Smith, doctors looking for abuse can often find it by the sheer force of wanting to see it. As has been upheld on this blog, the medical and the legal community should always strive to make their decisions upon proven evidence, not supposition and beliefs.
Child safety, eh? This level of wrongness makes my stomach turn.
David, you stated:
“Perhaps it wasn’t investigated because the contention that the Hepatitis B vaccine caused multiple skull fractures, much less the injury pattern consistent with traumatic injuries of the sort caused by shaking and trauma seen in abusive head trauma is ridiculous on its very face.”
Quick fact check: Did I miss where the article actually suggested that skull fractures were the result of vaccine injury? I think only the most contorted reading of the article could come to that conclusion. Most of your points are valid, so why stoop to that level? There is no reason.
This story is so disturbing that had I encountered it in a less credible space I would dismiss it as impossible.
Dr. Gorski, at the risk of exposing myself (yet again) as loathsome language martinet you might wish to revisit this sentence:
“I first learned of the vile concept that somehow SBS when I learned of the case of Alan Yurko”
Cut ‘n’ paste error. No time to fix now. At work.
One wonders why you don’t launch grammar flames comments after one of Mark Crislip’s posts.
ELloyd:
That requires reading two separate parts. First a description of the baby’s injuries from a link to an article by Christina England:
Then the speculation by Dr. Lloyd that is quoted:
The injuries included multiple skull fractures, and now it is speculating that the HepB vaccine (which is just a protein grown in baker’s yeast) caused those injuries. Dr. Gorski is merely pointing out that some are speculating the SBS is a vaccine injury, though they may not realize that those injuries included skull fractures.
Chris:
Are you being serious? I enjoy this blog, but come on. This is a stretch and we all know it. I call BS. Admit it and have a laugh. One more of Gorski’s toadies…?
I’m sorry? I don’t understand what is bothering you, perhaps you could try using full sentences. It seems that Dr. Lloyd came to the defense using the vaccine canard did not realize the injuries included multiple skull fractures. Dr. Gorski is trying to give him the benefit of doubt.
@ Dr. Gorski
“One wonders why you don’t launch grammar flames comments after one of Mark Crislip’s posts.
”
Two reasons:
I’m usually too busy laughing,
I’d be exhausted from the effort.
@ELloyd,
“Did I miss where the article actually suggested that skull fractures were the result of vaccine injury? I think only the most contorted reading of the article could come to that conclusion.”
Apparently you did miss that. No contorting is required to understand the direct quotation “… the injuries found just weeks later may have been caused by the Hepatitis B vaccine…”
Dr. Gorski did not misrepresent anything, and none of us are his “toadies.” Perhaps you would like to apologize.
@ critics of Dr. Gorski’s grammar:
Have you ever not been able to read past the typos to understand what he meant?
Lookout, fellow bandits! The great Day Levens has come to knock us off of our high horses!
@Harriet:
Apologize? You’re arguing a position that’s clearly disprovable if you simply RTFA, not simply what Gorski sated. You’re making an inference that is unjustified, and then claiming that the author said vaccines create skull fractures. If anything, Gorski should acknowledge his overreaching statements.
@Chris:
Aww… Sorry, Chris. I will try to use complete sentences just for you, buddy. :-*
At what point did Dr. Lloyd say anything about vaccines? You just said you quoted him, but that quote doesn’t seem to belong to him. Perhaps you should read the article.
Like I said, I enjoy this blog, but I’m calling BS on this issue. You seem to be taking Dr. Gorski’s word without reading the article. Read the article. Read it. Read it with your eyes and brain. Both eyes, and both hemispheres, if you have them. At no point does Dr. Lloyd even mention vaccines or Hepatitis. Yes, a lot of the article sounds like BS, but adding BS to BS just ends up with more BS. Ha!
Sorry, bud. You’re down 2 points now.
Okay let us try again, this paragraph is written by Dr. Gorski:
Then Dr. Gorski posts a blockquote which is also from Christina England:
The mother is blaming the vaccine. Dr. Lloyd is now writing papers to exonerate those who shake babies to death. He does not seem to understand what he is getting into. The theory that vaccines cause the injuries to babies was invented to both keep child abusers out of jail, and to demonize vaccines.
Personally I think Dr. Gorski is being too generous to Dr. Lloyd. I looked at his CV and I see nothing that would make him magically go from ergonomic training of injured war veterans to an expert on infant head trauma. I liken him to an ambulance chaser type of expert witness, much like (former) Dr. Mark Geier and his son (never a doctor) David Geier.
@Chris
I just had a good long laugh at your expense. You’re playing bait and switch now, bud. I just caught you in a big fat mistake (lie?), and now you’re claiming that you never said that. Buddy, your prior post is still visible! They stay there! Surprise!!!
Your depiction of Dr. Lloyd’s work is further showing your prejudice. You have no idea what his motivations are. You’ve got one big-ass axe to grind, don’t you?
My flabbers are still aghast that you’re bothering to argue this. Gorski overreached. Don’t sweat it. He won’t admit it, but I’m calling BS, and for some reason, you’re grasping at straws in an effort to support him. What’s what all about? “Personally, I think Dr. Gorski is being too generous to Dr. Lloyd.” If the toady fits…
I think you’re down 3 now, but who’s keeping score, eh?
David:
Your story has more problems. I don’t think Dr. John Lloyd is doing anything for the Sadowskys’ defense. I think he is simply cited in this article. I can quote Einstein and Hitler in the same article, but that doesn’t mean they were collaborating. If I’m wrong, please provide something more concrete.
Perhaps we should cut to the chase, buddy. England’s final line is this:
And let’s make no mistake: Al-Bayati has asserted that skull fractures can be caused by vaccines.
Chris:
My previous post pretty much pulled the ladder out from under you. It certainly appears that the author simply interviewed Amanda’s Mommy, then later interviewed Dr. John Lloyd. Let’s just admit a little mistake, and move on. Okay there bud?
You can do it. You’re a big man.
@ELoyd,
I think you have read something into Dr. Gorski’s post that he didn’t write. The statement Dr. Gorski quoted appears to have originated here: http://nojusticeinthejudicialsystem.blogspot.com/2012/10/man-serving-life-for-killing-his-baby.html. Dr. Gorski did not attribute it to Dr. Lloyd. It follows a quotation from Buttram’s report, and when I first read it I misinterpreted it as coming from Buttram. Instead it is a statement by Christina England published on August 20. Dr. Gorski said Dr. Buttram’s report led to the speculation, and that is correct. The speculation may have been entirely Christina England’s; it’s not clear.
While the Amanda Truth Project website and Buttram’s and Innis’s reports do not directly blame fractures on vaccines, they do suggest that vaccines caused at least part of the features of the shaken baby syndrome, and Dr. Innis’ report links to http://www.shirleys-wellness-cafe.com/vaccine_sids.htm featuring Viera Schreibner, alleging that vaccines have been proven to cause SIDS, and suggesting that they are also responsible for shaken baby syndrome.
Yes, I did make an error in the quoting. And I never try to prove my masculinity. You on the other hand might want to pull back the argument through blatant insults.
As a mother of a child who had seizures from a now disease preventable disease, very severe convulsions. There were no broken bones, so I have very bad opinion of those who claim vaccines cause broken bones.
I also am not fond of the shenanigans of “expert witnesses”, and that includes Dr. Lloyd.
Nadar:
Was that intended for me, buddy? Have we met? I never said anything other than most of that piece was a lot of BS. But I don’t see Dr. Bayati quoted anywhere in the article, so what are you trying to pull there? Why this hostility toward me? Are any of the mistakes that I just pointed out non-existent?
Jeepers. I point out what I thought was a minor mistake, and suddenly everyone goes to bat for Gorski. No wonder he has a God complex. Granted, he’s funny as hell, but let’s not take his rantings quite so seriously. You’re scaring me, like one of those crazy Rush Limbaugh supporters or something.
Also, Dr. Hall the defense of Alan Yurko seemed to think the broken ribs were from the DTP.
Chris:
I thought you were male. Oops. I’m not male either, if that helps. Perhaps I should give you a point for that.
You are acting like an asshole, buddy, so there’s that.
I was not aware it was a competition. I have been following the issues before the time when Buttram and Yazbak found Yurko. It about the time I was taking my son to speech therapy and deep in the depths of special education IEPs. I don’t care much for those who abuse children and try to blame something that could not have caused the injuries.
Next time try explaining that the wording on the quotation was unclear. That could be done using full sentences and without insults. The real wonky player in the above article is Ms. Christina England who is connecting invisible dots.
Chris:
Maybe they aren’t child abusers, honey. Would you help those who support the innocent? Dr. Gorski left that option open. Right or wrong, perhaps that’s what Dr. Lloyd believes too.
This is a game to you, too, honey. Maybe you don’t accept it. It is definitely a game to Gorski. So don’t go getting all bent out of shake, dear. I was not being far less insulting than Gorski.
I had pretty much ignored this story in the past, because I just assumed it was some dumb anti-vaxxer crap that wasn’t worthy of much effort on my part. But I kept seeing references to it in Facebook memes and comments in anti-vaxxer posts. Overcoming my laziness, I read this article. Now I’m ill. Setting aside the the huge defects in our criminal justice system, that even the vaccine denialists can’t see how horrible Alan Yurko is makes me ill. I guess making a hero out of murderer is not beneath them.
Please David Gorski, write an article about the Triple Crown, just so I can cleanse my brain. PLEASE. Just a short one.
Ha! I meant that “I was being far less insulting than Gorski.”
ELloyd – for someone with no investment in the. issue at hand you seem awfully defensive.
You are aware, no doubt, that several of the disgusting creatures defending child murderers like Yurko and Sadowsky, are claiming that childhood vaccinations caused vitamin C and D deficiencies which, they allege, account for the skull and rib fractures?
The “expert witness” Lloyd is as credible as he is medically trained in paediatric trauma. So, not at all.
There are cases where non-accidental trauma and accidental trauma have been mistaken for one another. Getting a precise aetiology for injuries when the patient cannot talk is always a Sisyphean task. However, sometimes, as anyone who has worked in triage will tell you, there is no doubt whatsoever that the injuries you’re seeing are the result of abuse.
Hijacking the memory of murdered infants, cruelly abused by those supposed to care for them, in order to advance some deranged new theory about the evils of vaccination, could only be the work of someone completely amoral and self-serving.
That’s what Dr Gorski is trying to point out here. That there are individuals so blinded by their own delusions of grandeur, that they will stoop to any level to promote their sick agenda.
So, instead of nit-picking and sniping, why don’t you nail your colours to the mast?
Oh, now you’ve moved from passive-aggressive “buddy”s to sickly-sweet, patronising “Honey”s and “Dear”s.
Pathetic. So your colours are now evident. You are pissing on the graves of babies who were beaten to death, because you’re so invested in your “Vaccines are ebil!” delusion.
Sick.
If they’re playing the vaccine card, there’s little other conclusion, bitsy.
@ELloyd,
You contradict yourself. Which is it? Did you think Dr. Gorski’s post was over-reaching BS, or did you think there just a minor mistake?
elburto:
Lord Almighty! There is a lot of pent-up hostility here. I talk like I talk, buddy. If you are female, I would probably call you “honey”. I pointed out a tiny mistake, dear, and I thought David would get a kick out of it. Then I found a bigger problem. Not sure what he might think of that. I think I’m the only one here that isn’t being defensive. Ha!
I haven’t even read much on this case, but apparently the rest of you are experts, just because you read about someone else’s case? These comments are overrun with sycophants who wish nothing less than to exalt and worship at the alter of Gorski. Please point out one single point that I made that was not true? Or does “truth” not matter to you people? Are you blinded with hate? David left the door open that Sandowsky may be innocent, but the rest of you apparently know something that he doesn’t.
Did I ever say that I believed the BS about the vaccinations? I just hopped-in to have a little fun with David, and suddenly everyone started taking it very personally. You’re seriously starting to scare me, buddy.
I’m “pissing on the graves of babies”? What the hell? I’m pissing on David, but he is used to that, and doesn’t take it personally. In fact, I think he enjoys it. Some of you really need to cool off.
Apology accepted in advance.
Harriet:
The first mistake was minor, but later I realized that he made a larger mistake by closely associating Dr. John Lloyd with the anti-vaccine crowd. Keep up, honey!
I’m still trying to figure out what trials Dr. Lloyd has provided an expert witness. David implied that he’s making a lot of money doing it, but all I can find is a link to some case in Arizona, and I think it was pro bono, since it was associated with the Innocence Project. http://wrongfulconvictionsblog.org/2012/06/05/arizona-justice-project-achieves-shaken-baby-exoneration/
But I’m still looking…
Nadar:
WOW! You’re insightful! :-*
E Lloyd and Dr. David Lloyd, PhD, BS, etc. share a namesake. I wonder if there’s a connection and if maybe that is why she is responding the way she is?
ELO + Pink Floyd = ELloyd.
Sure… likely story
I love ELO and Floyd, but I, like most others, disagree with your analysis of this post
Can that be taken as an admission that you think “no, all these existing traumatic injuries that ended in death are definitely the fault of vaccines even though first I said I tripped and then, no, I think I had a seizure” is a promising defense, ELyldo?
@ELloyd,
LLoyd is listed as an expert witness and it says he has testified against shaken baby syndrome. I can’t find evidence that he testified in either of the cases described here. Your guess that his testimony in another shaken baby case was pro bono is no more credible than Dr. Gorski’s implication that he profits from testifying, as expert witnesses almost always do. And it is really irrelevant whether he gets paid or not. The point is, he has allowed his name to become associated with disparagement of the shaken baby diagnosis.
By the way, I really object to being called honey. I am hereby politely requesting you not do it again. Thank you in advance.
Nadar:
What’s your question? You’re not quoting me, there, bud.
If you’re asking me (again) if I believe the vaccine nonsense, I have already answered that. No, I don’t. Please… You old fellas really need to keep up.
If you’re referencing part of the Sadowsky case, I’ll have to read up on it more. I don’t know more than what Gorski and England have provided. Changing stories is not a good sign for any defense, although I suppose if he had some mild seizure disorder, he could have had a seizure and tripped at the same time. Ha! Did they mention epilepsy or something? I can’t think of why else someone would talk about seizures. Sounds a bit odd, doesn’t it?
Harriet:
Okay. Sorry. That’s just my upbringing.
I said pro bono because his legal team was pro bono, and I know that other experts mentioned are generally known to testify free of charge in wrongful conviction cases. I actually met Dr. Waney Squier once, very briefly. I think it was about 10-11 years ago. I do know that she is very involved in these types of cases now, but she was not at all back then. She was very pleasant. I wonder why she is doing this now, after such a distinguished career.
Ha! Okay, I guess I missed it before. I had to do a little bit of reading about Moyamoya disease. The real question is whether or not this man had surgery for the disease. If so, he should not have been experiencing blackouts. Also, who diagnosed it? Buttram? Was it a “diagnosed” after his baby died? Was the daughter ever tested?
I’m not arguing right now, I’m curious if there is any credibility to that argument.
I need to take back some of what I just said. Some people continue to have blackouts and/or seizures after surgery. Sorry! I should have done more reading before I posted. My guess is that that most of you are way ahead of me on this issue.
He attempted to testify in the Tiffani Calise case, in the form of bringing a bathtub into the courtroom. Apparently, his only prior experience as an expert witness in this field was in Georgia, but I can’t nail that one down, and given that the entire excursion is entirely tangential to the point, I’m little inclined to.
@Dr. Hall
“Have you ever not been able to read past the typos to understand what he meant?”
Precise thinking deserves precise expression. I simply pointed out a sentence that was obviously not what Dr. Gorski had intended so that he might consider editing it to express his actual thought. I did not suggest this to be an intellectual failing, just an unfortunate pebble in an otherwise smooth and silky road. Had this sentence appeared in a private e-mail exchange it would have passed without comment. But these posts are archived, one presumes in the expectation that they will be read and referred to many times and for many years.
@ELloyd
“Was that intended for me, buddy? Have we met?”
That is rich coming from someone who feels free to address Dr. Hall as ‘honey’ and both she and Dr. Gorski by their given names.
@windriven,
“Precise thinking deserves precise expression.”
I agree and I personally try very hard to write error-free posts. I even have two people proof-read every article I write. But I happen to have the time, the interest, and the helpers to do that. I find it easy to forgive the typos of others that are due to haste or dyslexia. David Gorski is to be commended for the volume of his writing in the course of an incredibly busy and productive life. His thinking is always clear.
@windriven
I fixed the sentence already. Geez!
Indeed, and in the case of Amanda Sadwosky he’s done it while publicly stating that he has “no opinion to offer regarding vaccinations,” because he’s not an expert in that field. I’m sorry, but if you’re going to insert yourself into this field on the side of those who deny that SBS exists as a clinical entity it’s about as irresponsible as you can get to brush off concerns about antivaccinationists claiming that SBS is vaccine injury or that vaccine injury predisposes to more severe injury from head trauma.
Nadar, good job on the find. I just read about that Tiffany Calisie case. Wow. Poor girl. I can definitely see why these SBS cases are tough to prosecute. So, she shook the girl to death and blamed it on a fall in the tub? Or the child fell in the tub and they blamed it on shaking? She must have done it in front of her own daughter, right after the two of them got done playing. Then watching that video after she was sentenced to life in prison. She is in tears, claiming her innocence.
My husband is a detective, and he just watched that video with me. He has done a lot of interrogations, but in his opinion, this woman is not lying. “That’s not a performance.” He’s actually pretty shaken up right now, which is really unusual for him. Like I said, he does a lot of these. The glove don’t fit. Ha!
Nothing about vaccinations, there folks.
Nadar, good job on the find. I just read about that Tiffany Calisie case. Wow. Poor girl. I can definitely see why these SBS cases are tough to prosecute. So, she shook the girl to death and blamed it on a fall in the tub? Or the child fell in the tub and they blamed it on shaking? She must have done it in front of her own daughter, right after the two of them got done playing. Then watching that video after she was sentenced to life in prison. She is in tears, claiming her innocence.
My husband is a detective, and he just watched that video with me. He has done a lot of interrogations, but in his opinion, this woman is not lying. “That’s not a performance.” He’s actually pretty shaken up right now, which is really unusual for him. Like I said, he does a lot of these. The glove don’t fit. Ha!
Nothing about vaccinations, there folks.
Ms. Lloyd, will you be a big girl and admit that you keep typing Narad incorrectly?
David, most of those active in SBS exonerations and defense do not adhere to the concept that these are vaccination injuries, and other than this one single article written by Christina England, I have not seen you produce anything showing Dr. Lloyd to have any close association with anti-vaccination, or even the Sadowsky case. Actually, you are already back-tracking, aren’t you? Maybe you caught my posts, but I don’t register on your radar, so you’re casually ignoring me, but changing your position nevertheless. That’s so sweet. :-*
I can’t find a lot on the Amanda Truth Project that even discusses vaccines, let alone uses it as a legal defense. I think Christina England’s article painted a picture that perhaps even the Sandowksky’s would not agree with.
But I’m sure you’ll still have plenty of toadies here to kiss your feet, and other parts, and tell you what good your doing. Perhaps if you were placed on equal footing with those you attempt to destroy, not so many would be here to kiss your dirty feet.
Chris and “Narad”:
I thought it was a play on the word “Radar” and I kept reading it incorrectly.
“His thinking is always clear.”
I agree. My comment was not a flame, not a jab, not a sneer. It was nothing more than a note suggesting that Dr. Gorski might revisit the sentence in the interest of clarity for future readers. For what it is worth, I think he took it in the spirit in which it was intended as evidenced by the good-natured repartee that followed.
Ms. Lloyd:
http://www.theamandatruthproject.com/apps/forums/show/4217734-seizures
And Ms. Sadowsky made a comment here (I miss the that you cannot link to the comment!):
By the way, I did say the most wonky person of this bit is Ms. England. She is big on speculation.
Buttram is an interesting character, as high priest of the Church of the Illumination. Which is what Arthur Allen mentioned when he profiled him in his book Vaccine. Buttram is often an “expert witness” for shaken baby syndrome, always blaming vaccines. His online papers are a testament to how not to cite a reference.
And I am still leery how someone who works with rehabilitating wounded veterans can become an expert on infant brain trauma. As an Army brat I saw lots of young people in uniform, and they were all much bigger than any infant.
ELloyd – you’re either a troll, or huffing paint. Which one is it?
It’s just that you keep spewing nonsense about the innocence of these people. You’re even going so far as to invoke your “husband” who is a “detective to show how totally innocent they are. And then, you toss out little sticky caecotropes like:
Read the title of the post. Read the body of the post:
Righto then. The entire point of this post is to illustrate how low the selfish, immoral, anti-vax scumbags will sink, in order to push their demented agenda. They will side with men who punched. and shook their babies to death, breaking their bones, causing internal bleeding, and catastrophic brain damage. They scream from the rooftops “He’s innocent! Vaccines did it!”. They pay “experts” who have no experience in infant healthcare or trauma, who falsely claim that no parent could shake a baby hard enough to damage them, that dislocated vertebrae and shearing of the brain tissue could not result from being thrust rapidly back and forth. That the broken ribs that correspond with a man viciously squeezing his baby as he kills her, are actually due to rapid-onset scurvy and osteoporosis caused by vaccination.
So maybe you can see why, in a post that has the title it does, and has content about blaming violent infant murders on vaccination, that your little “Hyuck hyuck, I don’t see nuthin’ ’bout no vaccines here, no sir!” act, and your immediate disparagement of. Doctors Gorski and Hall, and your condescension to every other commenter, can only mean two things. Either you’re an anti-vax troll, or you’re suffering from anoxia and impaired cognition due to huffing paint, glue, or lighter fuel.
Why else would you pop up. here, out of the blue, and act the. way you are? Why would you barge in, slinging insults and patronising jabs at both the doctors and the established posters, without any prior provocation? Why pick a name used by the “expert witness” as your screenname here? Why repeatedly defend convicted babykillers. and deny deny.deny any mention of vaccinations?
Why would you do that, sweetcheeks honeypie shmooglygong, unless you have an agenda? A morphing troll, or a hopeless headcase McCarthyite, or someone personally involved. They’re the only people, apart from someone high on solvents, who’d pop up out of nowhere and be immediately antagonistic to anyone and everyone in sight.
And no, I won’t be apologising to you (but bless your little wizened heart for thinking I might!), but I think you owe our hosts an apology for your disrespectful behaviour.
@Chris
In re: ELloyd – Think Th1Th2. Is there an emoticon for rolling eyes? If so, how do I do it?
I have no idea whether or not s/he drew blood because the tenor of the comments were so abrasive that I couldn’t be bothered to check. If I gave 1/4 of a sh!t at this point I’d have the transcript tracked down. But I’ve measured carefully and find that I give less than 1/48th of a sh!t about anything ELloyd has said. Perhaps s/he could take a deep breath or three and reformulate the argument without all the drama and snark. Then we’d have a useful starting point.
@elburto
I’ll put a crisp clean twenty on huffing paint. (Thanks, you made me laugh out loud)
Windriven – it’s more like Lurker/Marsha/grandma than Thingy.
Thingy would never miss a chance to talk about vaccines, and “toxins injected into the bloodstream”.
Windriven – Meth and crack are just so “Meh”. It’s time something old skool made a comeback. Something quaint and retro!
Correct, because I never claimed that he was. I criticized Lloyd for giving aid and comfort to people who do make that claim and seemingly not caring.
Do you even know who Harold Buttram and Michael D. Innis are? Seriously? Do you know? Buttram is one of the people who invented the whole notion that vaccine injury either causes or predisposes to the constellation of findings characteristic of SBS. He’s been writing about it for well over a decade. Innis is also well-known for promoting the same sorts of pseudoscience. And guess what? Tonya Sadowski got both of them to do what they do best and wrote up a report blaming a veritable Gish gallop’s worth of causes other than trauma, prominently featuring vaccines, for Amanda’s death. You don’t get these guys to write reports for you if you don’t plan on using as part of your claim that vaccines were part of what killed Amanda. You just don’t. It’s what they’re primarily known for. And both reports, particularly that of Michael Innis, do try to argue that vaccines contributed to Amanda’s death.
But seriously. You clearly are ignorant of the long background and history of the claim that vaccines cause or contribute to the findings of SBS.
Gorski:
Are you aware of Dr. Jennian Geddes’ study? You mention axonal shearing, that’s why I ask. That hypothesis has not been widely accepted for several years now. It’s widely accepted that the axonal damage is the result of global hypoxia. But that study is only about 11 years old. No rush. You have blogs to write and people to to disparage!
http://brain.oxfordjournals.org/content/124/7/1299.full
There’s a strong odor of OQF in there.
In my “not an expert” opinion the Geddes paper reiterates there is a difference between adults and infants. Which adds to my question why someone who works with wounded warriors is now an “expert witness” on infant brain trauma.
I looked at Dr. Lloyd’s CV, and he became a specialist in brain injury a couple of years ago. But I don’t see any real relevant education that explains how that happened. Can you clarify?
@ElRod
Really? This is your big gun? A pissing match over relative minutiae? Does a shaken infant die as a direct result of DAI or is it epidural cervical hemorrhage and focal (rather than diffuse) axonal damage? Does the infant care? Does it impact the thrust of Dr. Gorski’s broader argument? Or having mis-shot your wad are you down to picking nits?
@ELloyd
Your comments seemed very familiar to me, but I couldn’t quite figure it out. I was sure I’ve seen you before elsewhere—and recently. It didn’t take much for me to confirm that my deduction was correct.
In fact, now that I’ve made the connection, I’ve found you showing up all over the place whenever this particular issue comes up, always making the same sort of dubious arguments. It’s almost as though you have a Google Alert set up for cases of shaken baby syndrome and head on over whenever it alerts you. Of course, this makes it all the more likely that your apparent ignorance of the claims of antivaccinationists linking vaccines to SBS is feigned and that you’re trolling. Certainly, you’ve mastered the Gish gallop.
We’ve seen ELloyd before (although not in any other guise on SBM as far as I can tell—if ELloyd were generating sockpuppets, I’d shut it down in a flash; we don’t mind pseudonyms here, but sockpuppeting is a bannable offense), but it’s not Thingy. Think old British SF show.
Gentlemen, have you read the entire site? Did you realize that even this woman’s pastor supports her AND her husband? I guess that he likes killing babies too, if I am to believe some of the comments here. That must make it satanic ritual abuse, right?
David, you demonstrate a paucity of knowledge regarding the current science of SBS. It is an immense gaping hole in your entire argument. Instead of attacking me and others, take some time to educate yourself. Apparently that’s not something that you have done in awhile. Clearly, any model based on the concept of axonal shearing is going to be prone to failure before it even begins.
Is Dr. Lloyd’s model prone to failure? Certainly, and it is noted within the article. The torn bridging vein theory has all but disappeared, and that is where we have the minimum force threshold (contusions requiring even stronger forces). The bleeds in these infants begin in the dura, not torn bridging veins. How much force does that require? We have no idea. Could it bleed due to shaking? Maybe. Could it bleed due to choking? Maybe. Could it be due to David Gorski’s immense intellect? Maybe. With our current understanding, all biomechanical models are ultimately worthless. Further, there may be several orders of magnitude difference depending on the child. The research is not there. It has been proposed that these small bleeds may trigger a trigeminal response ultimately leading to encephalopathy, retinal hemorrhaging and death.
elburto, please… Dispense with the conspiracy theories. I have no idea who you are, either, and I’m sure you prefer it that way. I have treated no one here any worse than they would treat anyone else who dares to disagree.
“Of course, this makes it all the more likely that your apparent ignorance of the claims of antivaccinationists linking vaccines to SBS is feigned and that you’re trolling.”
I do not support anti-vaccinationists. I am well aware of them. I agree with you on many points. We are not that distant. However, I strongly disapprove of your methods.
David, you are a troll. You are proud to be a troll, but that does not make you less of a troll. You and I both know that you have trolled elsewhere as well. And yes, we have frequented the same forums in the past, although not on this topic.
Ms. Lloyd, how does the managing editor of a blog become a “troll” on his own article?
Now please explain clearly how someone who works with injured adults become an expert on infants with no discernible training on their CV? The link you gave explicitly said the two were completely different, so how did Dr. Lloyd become an expert in infant brain trauma? Give us the documented details, because they are missing from his online CV.
@ELloyd,
“Did you realize that even this woman’s pastor supports her AND her husband?”
And we know they are infallible. Not.
“Could it be due to David Gorski’s immense intellect? Maybe.”
Bullshit.
And how does your bullshit theory explain skull fractures? Just curious how a warped mind thinks.
When someone who appears to be perseverating decides that “I know you are, but what am I?” is a valid response to criticism, I suppose.
You’ll forgive me if I find your protestation about being aware of antivaccinationists…unconvincing. You’ll also forgive me if I don’t care whether you personally approve or disapprove of me.
In any case, I think it’s still obvious that you didn’t know who Harold Buttram or Michael Innis were and that the core of what they do is to try to blame vaccines for SBS. (Harold Buttram, in particular, is notorious for claiming that the hemorrhages seen in SBS are due to vitamin C deficiency caused by vaccines. See his report, where he speculates that “intractable reflux problems along with routine vaccines administered on June 19th, known to cause oxidative stresses on the body,(17) might well have brought about terminal clinical scurvy as a contributory source of the bruising noted on the autopsy report.” Innis speculates on vitamin C and K deficiencies, and cites “classic” articles used by SBS equals vaccine injury cranks for years now.
Of course, another possibility is that your ignorance was feigned, and you just didn’t care how ridiculous the vaccine/SBS pseudoscience was, just as long as doubt—or the illusion of doubt—could be placed on SBS by any means.
I’m sorry for this…. But “Innis & Buttram” wow what a horrible pair of names!
Chris:
I am not “Ms. Lloyd.” You may address me as “Ms. ELloyd” if you would like, but I will simply assume that was a typo and move on. The name came when I decided to combine ELO and Pink Floyd. For pronunciation purposes, I would pronounce it like E- L – Loid. May we now put such speculation to rest?
Weing and Gorski:
David is a troll. He is a well-known troll. Ask him to deny it. I, on the other hand, seldom troll. But when visiting with a group of trolls, well, “when in Rome…” Further, the notion that Dr. Gorski’s intellect would cause an infant’s brain to bleed was an attempt at humor. Good catch. While the 1980′s horror flick “Scanners” comes to mind, I nevertheless assure you that it was meant in jest.
David:
I am well aware of Drs. Innis, Buttram, Al-Bayati, Ayoub, Scheiber and others. In Dr. Ayoub’s case, it may be unfortunate, since the man appears to be quite a gifted radiologist, in my opinion, and it only weakens his credibility. But his beliefs, from what I gather, appear to be sincere, as are yours.
I have spoken with parents, friends, and families involved in SBS cases. I frequently hear of a sick child, and I’m told that the child’s condition dramatically declined post-vaccination (often DTaP or DTP). These parents were obviously not anti-vaccinationists, but were simply alarmed that the pediatrician would give the shots to a child who was already ill. I would not encourage them is not to pursue that defense; it is unlikely to be beneficial. I have no other opinion on the issue. If someone asked me if their child should be vaccinated, I would probably tell them “only if they are well” and to watch for an adverse reaction.
May we put that speculation to rest now? I have no ties to any of those doctors.
I can’t speak for the evidence regarding vitamin C deficiency, but vitamin K deficiency is well-known to mimic SBS, at least to the untrained eye. Dr. Lucy Rorke-Adams, a strong SBS proponent, was pivotal in overriding the diagnosis in such an instance. Her conclusion was that the infant was deficient in vitamin K, likely due to a liver dysfunction, when the baby died. She based this on the observation of the pattern of bleeding, and a blood test would confirm her suspicion. Other conditions are frequently misdiagnosed as SBS, sometimes ending in the preventable death of a child. As the proof begins to surface, may we term them “baby killers” as well, sir?
Does Dr. John Lloyd know the consequences of his decision to enter into the realm of SBS? I imagine he is quite aware. It is a risk that he is willing to take, because he strongly believes in preventing miscarriages of justice. It is a noble endeavor. Noted bio-mechanical engineer Chris Van Ee has also been somewhat active. While their experiments may ultimately be proven obsolete, they do counter the out-dated theories extolled by the prosecution’s doctors in the courts.
You don’t care about my opinion of you, but I’m going to share it nonetheless. My “beef” with you, doctor, begins with the Hippocratic oath. Words cause harm. While your words in particular are often chosen carefully, likely to avoid lawsuits, the words of your sycophants are not. Indeed, you appear to enjoy inciting others and viewing the damage they inflict behind their cowardly pseudonyms. Now you have a perfect outlet and you enjoy the full protection of the second amendment by your employers. Perhaps your own God-complex blinds you from the truth of how hurtful and destructive this can be. You hurt people. It does not matter if 1,000 other doctors have hurt 1,000,000 other people. Your behavior is nevertheless inexcusable.
Pleased to meet you. Hope you guess my name.
How exactly did Dr. Lloyd become an “expert” in infant brain trauma when he has no work experience, nor any specific education in that field? He works in a veteran’s hospital where the patients are adults.
@ELloyd,
The fractures?
And you may address me as “Colonel Narad.” For pronunciation purposes, I would emulate Robert Clary.
“I’m sorry for this…. But “Innis & Buttram” wow what a horrible pair of names!”
Aren’t they featured in a cartoon somewhere?
I see that Dr Lloyd is actually a “Professor of Medicine”.
Who would have thought that?
http://evidencebasedmedicineandsocialinvestigation.org/the-speakers/
ELloyd: “I, on the other hand, seldom troll.”
Let me meme that for you:
“I don’t always troll but when I do, I troll SBS stories.”
Dingo199:
Found this on the same site:
“Each registered attendee will receive a copy of Shaken Baby Syndrome or Vaccine Enduced Encephalitis – Are Parents Being Falsely Accused? Written by Dr. Harold Buttram, M.D. and Christina England, Research Journalist.”
Lovely!
Dingo199:
And engineering. The problem is that I could not find his name when I searched the University of South Florida online directory. Perhaps he is one of those folks that comes in to teach a workshop every so often and is using that to fluff up his CV.
I see all of you have done an admirable job of demolishing ELloyd’s posts one-by-one.
About ELloyd’s possible sockpuppetry…my guess, based on the familiarity “David” and “Harriet”, the deliberate misspelling of Narad’s name and the general use of condescending terms, is that we may be dealing with a sock puppet of Sarah 007.
BTW Dr. Gorski, Thingy has appeared on the Shot of Prevention blog, posting from a different IP address and/or a different e-mail account.
Nice guess, but no. As far as I can tell, ELloyd has not posted on SBM under any other ‘nym. I think, however, that ELloyd has been quite active recently on the same subject at my “friend’s” blog under what appears to be his real name. Certainly, the similarities in style, arguments, and behavior between ELloyd and this other commenter are striking.
@ Dr. Gorski: I think you are referring to Jeremy Praay, who posted on Orac’s blog, here:
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2012/10/05/using-the-lie-that-sbs-is-a-misdiagnosis-for-vaccine-injury/
Mr. Praay is a software developer, who *claimed* to not have an interest in the Amanda Sadowsky case, until I and other posters on the RI blog “outed him”.
Has Mr. Praay morphed into ELloyd?
@ ELloyd: “Pleased to meet you. Hope you guess my name.” Pleased to meet you, as well. You’ve been “outed troll” on the RI blog and on this blog…bye-bye.
It appears Dr. Gorski has identified ELloyd as a man or at least a person who uses a man’s name elsewhere. I’m wondering why he would choose to pretend to be a woman here.
He or she announced on another thread that he or she will not be posting here any more. Good riddance.
Actually, Jeremy Praay is a real person. ELloyd, I’m not so sure about.
At least, Praay appears to be real. He has a Facebook page and his comments pop up a lot if you search his name plus “shaken baby syndrome.” In fact, so active is he commenting on this particular topic that methinks he has a Google Alert set up.
Jeremy Praay is a real person…he’s a software developer with a B.S.-Computer Science…according to his LinkedIn page:
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/jeremy-praay/53/515/8a
My daughter has her MSc-Computer Science. She knows diddly-squat about medical science and nothing about Shaken Baby Syndrome.
Oh, boo freaking hoo. Your wordies give me ouchy-ouch-ouch! Speech codes now! Tell you what, move to the UK. You’ll only have two problems.
What on earth are you babbling about?
HH:
“I’m wondering why he would choose to pretend to be a woman here.”
My guess is it was to avoid being called out as a misogynist/chauvinist when he started addressing women as “honey”.
When he was addressing a person he believed to be a man as buddy, I was reminded of this scene from South Park: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zuQK6t2Esng&feature=youtube_gdata_player
@Karl Withakay,
“My guess is it was to avoid being called out as a misogynist/chauvinist when he started addressing women as “honey”.”
I think it is unlikely that he did it as a plan with that in mind, since he didn’t start using those words until late in the game. I’m wondering if maybe he thought others would treat a woman less harshly. Of course that’s not true: I get just as much abuse as the men.
I’ve been investigating child abuse and neglect cases for twenty five years including many SBS cases along the way. These cases can often involve parents who do not have many of the risk factors one would associate with child maltreatment such as drug use, mental health problems or a even a history of violent behavior. So it’s no wonder the parents friends and some associated medical folk are willing to believe in the parents despite the overwhelming evidence that SBS injuries are nearly always inflicted and not accidental. The problem is belief, emotions and relationships shape the perspectives of even medical professionals not just lay-folk. A dispassionate review of the facts usually sorts out these cases pretty quickly and the only questions that arise usually have to do with identifying alleged perpetrators, sorting out time frames and looking who had the opportunity to inflict the injury. The notion that these types of injuries could be caused by vaccines is so outrageous, and potentially dangerous, that any MD offering up such an opinion should have his license suspended in my opinion.
One more point… .
Many exceedingly important and pivotal decisions regarding the safety of children are made by state social worker’s and the courts based on the opinions and conclusions of medical doctors in cases of child abuse. Shaken Baby Syndrome cases more often than not do not result in fatal or even grievous injuries. Social worker’s like myself and the courts frequently make decisions about whether an injured child should be allowed to return home from the hospital or if other children should be removed from a family home if it is determined that a serious injury to a young child has been inflicted or was accidental. If a MD has an opinion that is not informed by the facts and the best available research concerning a type of or pattern of injuries many other children, including the injured one, can be put in harm’s way. This type of discussion is not just academic or philosophical; lives are at stake and those playing fast and loose with the facts for their own agendas’ need to understand the potential consequences’ of their foolishness.
I’m shocked, shocked I tell you, that our troll’s “husband”, the experienced “detective” who could discern innocence via a short video clip, was a figment of “her” imagination.
Dr Gorski – both you, and your friend at the other blog, are incredibly tolerant and accommodating of our friends from under the bridge.
I raise my glass to you both. I could not muster up such forbearance in the face of those selfish, disgraceful beings who would defend child murderers rather than confront the idiocy of their delusions.
Don’t forget, men can have husbands too. At least in some states.
Jacob -
Thank you. These denialists, peddlers of disgraceful lies, seem to treat the lives of children as if they were simply acceptable collateral damage. It’s as if the suffering of babies and their families is not as important as proving some ridiculous point.
Harriet – As a woman with a wife I’m aware of that*, but it was obvious from the sheer level of patronising sneering, not to mention the palpable condescension and odd over-familiarity, that the troll’s entire persona was a tissue of lies.
The fact that “she” switched into “crappest tv caricature of female behaviour” as soon as their condesplaining was called out, made it obvious that this was no woman.
The adoption of a detective husband who just so happened to have vast experience with such abusive cases was simply the hilarity flavoured icing on the fail-cake!
*Not American, thank the stars! Our sexuality is no more interesting than what kind of car we own, here in rural Britain.
@ elburto:
“*Not American, thank the stars! Our sexuality is no more interesting than what kind of car we own, here in rural Britain.”
Please don’t confuse any of the SBM “regulars” with that small group of Americans who are interested in other people’s sexuality. BTW, what kind of car do you and your wife own?
Please can someone explain to an ignorant monkey who has tried to follow the antiSBS/antivax argument how they pretend to explain the fractures. All the detailed argument from the antiSBS side seems to try to create an impression of rather diffuse medical abnormality in the infant but say nothing about the specific causation of the fractures. Is their claim that somehow the bones of these infants are rendered so like tissue paper that normal life events lead to fracture? To me their arguments look like a disconnected set of what-ifs that do not in any way present a whole explanation but are intended only to try to create “(un)reasonable doubt” in jurors minds. I further assume this is because, in law, the defence is not required to solve the case with a new coherent narrative but simply to appear to undermine elements of the prosecution case. This is how the law works, but it’s not how science works. We see this all the time from the animedicine brigade- they nitpick, often incompetently, at separate foci but are incapable of generating a coherent alternative explanation of medical reality.
Sorry, if I’m being obtuse.
By the way, the implosion of ELoyd has been most amusing. One wonders at his/her motives.
BSM:
The claim is that a short fall can cause multiple skull fractures in infants. Go figure.
It is the premise of a certain “expert witness” who became “certified” in brain trauma in 2010, who works in a Veteran’s Administration hospital re-training wounded soldiers, who mysteriously is now an “expert” in infant brain trauma. But without anything in his CV about training to tell the difference between grown adults who were injured in battle, and infants.
All of the attitude aside (am I really to be the least-cranky person on this page? I expect that to be corrected tomorrow at the latest.), I think ELloyd’s original complaint is valid. Gorski said nobody investigated the slew of inventive theories because of the absurdity of “the contention that the Hepatitis B vaccine caused multiple skull fractures”.
Well, I read the article which mentions Dr. Lloyd and I don’t see that in there explicitly. In a few places, that article DOES state that the baby was dropped and there are various claims that very minor drops can cause extreme bone fractures. All of the medical acrobatics is in claiming that a vaccine caused other things. It seems clear to me that they are trying to play down the cause of the fractures as a mere accident, and play up the cause of the other injuries as the Real Killers, even though the latter requires fabricated mechanisms.
Maybe to a doctor those other things seem just as insane as the broken bones claim, and it is mere hair-splitting to argue about exactly how their crazy theories were worded. But to the layest of men, Gorski’s summarized description sounds like the most extreme thing, and happens to be something not actually stated.
BadlyShavedMonkey – one of the theories about the multiple fractures, frequently bandied about by the “SBS is teh vaccines!!!!1″ crowd, is that at some point, by some unexplained mechanism of action, teh ebil vaccines cause instascurvy and instarickets.
The baby then breaks bones if she’s handled, has a seizure, or is dropped
on a regular basis, punched, squeezed and shaken like a cat shakes it’s prey.Lilady – it’s a … it’s a Suzuki! There, I said it! What a weight off my mind.
A Suzuki?! That’s horrible! You monsters!
BSM and Conspicuous Carl: You can follow the posts on Orac’s blog here:
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2012/10/05/using-the-lie-that-sbs-is-a-misdiagnosis-for-vaccine-injury/
See how we located Tonya Sadowsky’s blog, how her husband’s legal appeal failed and how she offers up many excuses including teh ebil vaccine(s) that baby Amanda received. (See the one and only comment she posted where she claimed that the hepatitis B birth dose caused jaundice and how I provided her with the Engerix vaccine Prescribing Physician’s Information Sheet from the vaccine manufacturer).
Also visit Tonya’s web page that Dr. Gorski linked to…to see the ever changing hypotheses that “could have”, “might have” caused Amanda’s death.
The reports from Innis and Buttram are replete with additional false hypotheses.
Jeremy Praay, when he posted on Orac’s blog, was met with derision…and that is why he left that blog in a huff…only to return to this blog with a new persona…trying to play “gotcha” with Dr. Gorski’s wording of a paragraph.
@ elburto: Now, don’t you feel better by fessing up!
We have TWO cars; a 10-year-old compact and a 6-year-old Honda CRV…so there!
Aha…
Well, there it is: vaccines turned her baby’s skull into nitroglycerin.
Freshest Incense…
Science-Based Medicine » The antivaccine lie that just wont die: The claim that shaken baby syndrome is really due to vaccine injury…
Anyone who would like to peruse Mr. Hussey’s other spamvertised wares can visit the hilariously titled dickinmalabar-dot-com (although the registrant data in this case actually lists Missouri).