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234 thoughts on “Nine Questions, Nine Answers.

  1. overshoot says:

    Th1Th2:

    Of course not and more so with vaccination. Both of them [vaccination and the natural disease] will not confer immunity; they provoke the disease.

    It appears that our Th1Th2 doesn’t distinguish between receiving a Hepatitis B vaccination and being infected with the hepatitis B virus. Not, apparently, between receiving a diphtheria(or tetanus) shot and having a case of diphtheria (or tetanus.)

    This explains a very great deal.

    Oh, and as regards “known neurotoxins:” I’ve just had a nice lunch containing quite a bit of a known neurotoxin and have been feeding it to my children since they started solid food.

  2. Th1Th2 says:

    Prometheus,

    “Th1Th2 – as is his habit – chose the lowest estimate for the ratio of paralytic to inapparent polio infections (1:1000), while the source suggests that 1:200 is more typical. At any rate, the true ratio is hard to know.”

    Again, anybody with a brain stem would not choose any of the polio varieties a la carte whether it is inapparent, nonparalytic or paralytic. More so, intelligent people would not allow their body to be contaminated with any traces of poliovirus by acquiring it naturally or thru inoculation otherwise that is complete insanity.

    “Vaccination is the only protection against the return of epidemic polio.”

    So the polio vaccine will protect a person from the poliovirus by giving him the poliovirus per se and to those who have not had the virus? Wow that really make sense a lot just like the fantasy world of so-called herd immunity. @#$% It’s like submitting a child to receive a mild sexual harassment so that when an actual rape happens in the future, it would be easier. Medical barbarism at its best!

    “And please, Th1Th2, don’t try the old “sanitation” canard – it was sanitation that got us into the problem of paralytic polio (polio virus is excreted in the feces). Polio infections in infancy cause a modest diarrheal illness; it is only in later childhood (and adulthood), that there is a significant risk of paralytic polio.”

    The poliovirus in the feces is the same poliovirus that they put into the mouths of defenseless children only that they disguise them as sugar cubes or liquid. And how is polio transmitted, you are right—fecal-oral! Sugar cubes are more acceptable than eating crap both containing poliovirus.

    “Well, I suppose that’s because the virus is natural. ”

    The poliovirus in the vaccine is real; what the vaccinators do is cruelty.

  3. Th1Th2 says:

    Alisson Cummins,

    “Ok, so if “[p]rotective immunity has been established even before a baby is born,” how could a pox party breach it?”

    Are you trying to be facetious? Unless parents are really that insane, I know they would not allow their child to catch other diseases other than chicken pox, hence it’s called pox party.
    Smallpox party, anyone?

    You know how chickenpox is transmitted, don’t you? It will save us a lot of time and energy from unnecessary typing you know.

  4. Archangl508 says:

    Th1Th2,

    “Certainly, that is NOT the primary and ultimate function of the immune system. Adaptive immune response plays secondary role when a breach of the innate immune system occurs.”

    I’m sorry, I guess I wasn’t clear enough. I wanted your response to include references to the studies showing what the primary and ultimate function of the immune system was (according to you at least). That was what I meant when I said to supply “evidence” of your claims and not just ramblings.

    The innate immune system is not very good at responding to varied threats. If you think it is, then why don’t you talk to an AIDS patient, SCID patient, or any other patient deficient in adaptive immunity and see how well they are faring with just their innate immune system. If your innate immune system is so great, then why do SCID patients die?

    The part you always seem to miss is that all these pieces work together, innate and adaptive, and that there is a great deal of crosstalk and crossover between the two systems and that only together to they really provide protection from and removal of threats.

    “intelligent people would not allow their body to be contaminated with any traces of poliovirus by acquiring it naturally or thru inoculation otherwise that is complete insanity.”

    And how does an intelligent person prevent themselves from being infected with polio virus if the vast majority of cases are asymptomatic as you suggest above? Do you have some sort of filter to prevent you from coming in contact with the virus that you wear?

  5. Harriet Hall says:

    Th1Th2 says “Vaccines do NOT confer any protective immunity whatsoever.” How can he expect anyone to take him seriously when he says something so easily refuted? It would take Mark Crislip’s 12 year old son less than 22 seconds on the Internet.

  6. Th1Th2 says:

    overshoot,

    “It appears that our Th1Th2 doesn’t distinguish between receiving a Hepatitis B vaccination and being infected with the hepatitis B virus. Not, apparently, between receiving a diphtheria(or tetanus) shot and having a case of diphtheria (or tetanus.)”

    In fact I do. Both are all crap and junks no matter how you look at it. Pathogen or pathogen parts are all hideous disease antigens. If you retain the most stinky part (immunogenic) of the pathogen in the vaccine, the immune system definitely would recognize that fetid smell. Literally, it will leave garbage inside the cells and nobody wants that to happen.

  7. Todd W. says:

    @Th1Th2

    More so, intelligent people would not allow their body to be contaminated with any traces of poliovirus by acquiring it naturally

    Ummm, this might be a silly question, but how do you disallow your body to be contaminated with poliovirus by natural infection? Do you say, “I’m sorry, Mr. Poliovirus, but I will not allow you to infect me”?

  8. weing says:

    Harriet,

    I think he must have read a typo somewhere and imprinted it on his brain. I wonder if he ever read the King James edition that had the typo that had, “Thou shall commit adultery” as one of the commandments.

  9. Zetetic says:

    Is Th1Th2 a naturopath? I know it’s stereotyping but he/she sure sounds like one.

  10. Th1Th2 says:

    Todd W.,

    “Ummm, this might be a silly question, but how do you disallow your body to be contaminated with poliovirus by natural infection? Do you say, “I’m sorry, Mr. Poliovirus, but I will not allow you to infect me”?”

    You’re right. It is silly. But you have at least 3 options, if you really wanted to be contaminated.

    1. Eating fecal matter for as long as Mr Poliovirus is present.
    2. Isolate Mr Poliovirus from the crap and place him on a sugar cube and eat it. You know children love sweets too.
    3. Or let someone inject Mr Poliovirus into your body.

    Your choice?

  11. Archangl508 says:

    Th1Th2,

    “You’re right. It is silly. But you have at least 3 options, if you really wanted to be contaminated.”

    Are you aware polio is not just transmitted by fecal-oral route?

    http://polio.emedtv.com/polio/polio-transmission.html

    “Less frequently, polio transmission can occur through contact with infected respiratory secretions or saliva (oral-oral transmission).”

    Are you also aware that one doesn’t actually need to ingest fecal matter in order for fecal-oral transmission?

    “Polio transmission most often occurs through contact with stool from an infected person. This spread of poliovirus can happen in one of several ways, which include:

    Eating food or drinking liquids that are contaminated with poliovirus. Poliovirus is commonly found in sewage water.

    Touching surfaces or objects contaminated with poliovirus (for example, when changing diapers), and then placing the contaminated hand in the mouth.

    Sharing foods or eating utensils with someone infected with poliovirus.”

    For example, Bob has polio infection. Bob goes to bathroom (#2). Bob washes hands, but does not remove all polio virus. Bob shakes Th1Th2′s hand. Th1Th2 bites fingernails. Th1Th2 now exposed to poliovirus.

    Again, both mine and Todd’s question is valid. How do you not allow your body to get an infection? Any infection. Do you live in a bubble perhaps?

  12. overshoot says:

    You’re right. It is silly. But you have at least 3 options, if you really wanted to be contaminated.

    1. Eating fecal matter for as long as Mr Poliovirus is present.
    2. Isolate Mr Poliovirus from the crap and place him on a sugar cube and eat it. You know children love sweets too.
    3. Or let someone inject Mr Poliovirus into your body.

    The three are perhaps comparable at the level of “spritual contamination” but since this is a medical discussion, we’ll leave the theology to you.

    As far as physical effects, however, there are just a few differences between pathogenic strains of viruses, genetically altered (non-pathogenic) viruses, killed viruses, and surface antigens produced entirely without the viruses. Not least among those differences are the consequent count of corpses and cripples.

  13. Th1Th2 says:

    Archangl508,

    “Are you aware polio is not just transmitted by fecal-oral route?”

    I know that in fact I discussed that before. But are you also aware that poliovirus is transmitted via the sugar cube? Kool-Aid? Come on, does it really matter? If the vial says, it contains poliovirus type 1, type 2 and type 3, is there any doubt that it is actually poliovirus that you are getting from the vaccine?

    “For example, Bob has polio infection. Bob goes to bathroom (#2). Bob washes hands, but does not remove all polio virus. Bob shakes Th1Th2’s hand. Th1Th2 bites fingernails. Th1Th2 now exposed to poliovirus.”

    How do you know Bob has polio? Does he have obvious asymmetric and flaccid paralysis? I know where this is getting to….of course 95% of the time polio is asymptomatic. I hope you are not profiling people with asymmetric limbs or resorting to circular reasoning between the risk of getting polio from vaccines and from the wild-type virus.

    “Again, both mine and Todd’s question is valid. How do you not allow your body to get an infection? Any infection. Do you live in a bubble perhaps?”

    By staying healthy and it’s a no-brainer.

  14. pmoran says:

    Th1Th2–

    “Protective immunity has been established even before a baby is born. And the immune system (innate and adaptive) will work as it is without vaccines. Therefore, vaccines, just like exposure to natural infections, will create nothing but trouble and havoc.”

    How. in the face of your “protective immunity”? What does “protective immunity” even mean, if it cannot prevent the illness?

  15. Prometheus says:

    I know that I’ll ending up regretting this…..

    Th1Th2 opines:

    The poliovirus in the feces is the same poliovirus that they put into the mouths of defenseless children only that they disguise them as sugar cubes or liquid.

    No.

    The polio virus in the vaccine is attenuated. That means that it has mutated to become less virulent and can’t cause symptomatic polio. It can, however, stimulate your adaptive immune system to make you immune to the wild-type polio virus.

    On very rare occasions, the attenuated polio virus can mutate back into a wild-type-like virus that can cause paralytic polio. Since we gave the oral polio vaccine to young children, they were not at risk for paralytic polio, but any non-immune adults or older children in the household were.

    This happened on only a few occasions, but the risk of domestic polio in the US eventually got so low that it was decided to switch back to the inactivated (dead) polio vaccine.

    Of course, it goes without saying that Th1Th2 didn’t know this because he doesn’t know much about vaccines, immunity or biology.

    Just waiting for the next one….

    Prometheus

  16. overshoot says:

    How do you not allow your body to get an infection? Any infection. Do you live in a bubble perhaps?

    By staying healthy and it’s a no-brainer.

    Ah! So if you’re “healthy” the poliovirus isn’t a threat either way. Presumably neither is clostridium tetani or corynebacterium diphtheriae. A demonstration involving e.g. c. tetani would be more persuasive than unsupported assertion.

  17. Th1Th2 says:

    Archangl508,

    “I’m sorry, I guess I wasn’t clear enough. I wanted your response to include references to the studies showing what the primary and ultimate function of the immune system was (according to you at least). That was what I meant when I said to supply “evidence” of your claims and not just ramblings.”

    Presenting evidence to you is worthless if you cannot distinguish innate immunity from the adaptive one. Such as you are unable to distinguish the advantage of having an intact skin to someone who has an open wound or burned skin.

    ” If your innate immune system is so great, then why do SCID patients die?”

    I’m sorry but the healthy unvaccinated are NOT comparable to SCID, or AIDS patients.

    “The part you always seem to miss is that all these pieces work together, innate and adaptive, and that there is a great deal of crosstalk and crossover between the two systems and that only together to they really provide protection from and removal of threats.”

    No, the innate system is the first line of defense. It is dominant and functions immediately in case of a threat. It is capable of eliminating microorganisms and does not have to rely on adaptive mechanism if it is not needed.

  18. weing says:

    “No, the innate system is the first line of defense. It is dominant and functions immediately in case of a threat. It is capable of eliminating microorganisms and does not have to rely on adaptive mechanism if it is not needed.”

    Right. So if you get bit by a rabid dog or bat, you will rely on your innate system to protect you?

  19. Th1Th2 says:

    pmoran,

    “How. in the face of your “protective immunity”? What does “protective immunity” even mean, if it cannot prevent the illness?”

    That is what I am trying to ponder how vaccine apologists arrived to the inane conclusion that an ‘antigenic preparation’ would protect the inoculee from the same extraneous antigen. What is there to protect the inoculee from when they already have the disease antigens? And those who have not acquired these hideous antigens (the unvaccinated) are being labeled as susceptible thus a risk. That is just friggin’ ridiculous.

  20. overshoot says:

    That is what I am trying to ponder how vaccine apologists arrived to the inane conclusion that an ‘antigenic preparation’ would protect the inoculee from the same extraneous antigen. What is there to protect the inoculee from when they already have the disease antigens?

    Be patient with me, I’m repressing my inner Orac and its impulse to point and laugh.

    Th1Th2 would appear to consider pathogens to be passive “antigens” and all infectious diseases to be allergic reactions to those “antigens.” Thus there is no medical difference between actively reproducing hepatitis B viruses and hepatitis B surface antigen.

    I remain curious as to whether Th1Th2 believes that the surface antigen is contagious, or perhaps that the virus is not.

  21. WilliamLawrenceUtridge says:

    Hey Th1Th2,

    you mention chicken pox parties, which I think we all agree are good things.

    Know what they never had before it was eliminated via vaccination?

    Smallpox parties. Polio parties. Spanish flu parties. Rubella parties. And also no adult chicken pox parties. I wonder why not…

    I’ll tell you why – the same reason people get vaccinated. Risk, established by scientific research. That you selectively try to use scientific research you like (ill advised basic immunology) to counter more meaningful clinical epidemiological studies points to nothing more than cargo cult scientism; fetishism, conjouring science rather than actual science. You aren’t arguing with anyone here, it is a combination of trolling and masturbation.

  22. weing says:

    “That is just friggin’ ridiculous.”
    Yep. Your understanding of basic biology is exactly that.

  23. Th1Th2 says:

    Prometheus,

    “The polio virus in the vaccine is attenuated. That means that it has mutated to become less virulent and can’t cause symptomatic polio. It can, however, stimulate your adaptive immune system to make you immune to the wild-type polio virus.”

    It is attenuated so that it will not cause paralytic polio. Vaccines are transmuted in order to mitigate the symptoms of the disease, hence, asymptomatic, abortive and nonparalytic polio are actually vaccine-induced polio.

    “On very rare occasions, the attenuated polio virus can mutate back into a wild-type-like virus that can cause paralytic polio. ”

    It is not surprising.

    “Since we gave the oral polio vaccine to young children, they were not at risk for paralytic polio, but any non-immune adults or older children in the household were. ”

    Again, children inoculated with poliovirus can have polio even if they are asymptomatic. If you think the unvaccinated are non-immuned they you are grossly mistaken.

  24. Archangl508 says:

    Th1Th2,

    “Presenting evidence to you is worthless if you cannot distinguish innate immunity from the adaptive one.”

    Translation = I have no evidence to present in support of my ramblings so I will just ramble on.

    “How do you know Bob has polio? Does he have obvious asymmetric and flaccid paralysis? I know where this is getting to….of course 95% of the time polio is asymptomatic. I hope you are not profiling people with asymmetric limbs or resorting to circular reasoning between the risk of getting polio from vaccines and from the wild-type virus.”

    Huh?

    The point is that you say that most polio infections are asymptomatic, as is Bob in the example, but how do you know you wouldn’t be in the 0.2-2% that come down with paralysis when Bob infects you? In the example, Bob does have polio…the question is not how would I tell, the question is how would you tell. You are the one claiming the ability to avoid infection, not I.

    “I’m sorry but the healthy unvaccinated are NOT comparable to SCID, or AIDS patients. ”

    You are claiming that the innate immune system is perfectly capable of protecting individuals. SCID patients can have completely intact innate immunity and be missing only T and B cells. AIDS patients only lose the subset of helper T cells. So why do their innate immune systems (all that is required to protect from infection according to you) not keep them completely healthy for years?

    “It is dominant and functions immediately in case of a threat.”

    Dominant how? Just because it functions immediately doesn’t mean it is the best form of protection we have against infection.

    Again…how about some evidence that it is the best protection we have against infection?

    WLU,

    “You aren’t arguing with anyone here, it is a combination of trolling and masturbation.”

    Ewwww….

  25. Th1Th2 says:

    weing,

    “Right. So if you get bit by a rabid dog or bat, you will rely on your innate system to protect you?”

    Here’s what you need to do to verify if your immune system ‘adapts’ accordingly. Get a shot and stick your tongue out to the rabid dogs. Do it frequently just like your activities of daily living without fail.

  26. overshoot says:

    “The polio virus in the vaccine is attenuated. That means that it has mutated to become less virulent and can’t cause symptomatic polio. It can, however, stimulate your adaptive immune system to make you immune to the wild-type polio virus.”

    It is attenuated so that it will not cause paralytic polio. Vaccines are transmuted in order to mitigate the symptoms of the disease, hence, asymptomatic, abortive and nonparalytic polio are actually vaccine-induced polio.

    So before the vaccine, there was no asymptomatic, abortive, or nonparalytic polio? That’s an interesting version of history that I suspect would have astonished early polio researchers.

    Besides, you’re contradicting yourself. Above you tell us that polio has a low rate of paralytic outcomes.

  27. Th1Th2 says:

    overshoot,

    “As far as physical effects, however, there are just a few differences between pathogenic strains of viruses, genetically altered (non-pathogenic) viruses, killed viruses, and surface antigens produced entirely without the viruses. Not least among those differences are the consequent count of corpses and cripples.”

    It does not matter, vaccine antigens are all derived from awful diseases. In fact the CDC, even states this:

    “The more similar a vaccine is to the disease-causing microorganism, the better the immune response.”

    What could be better than actually having the actual pathogen (natural infection)?

    But again, neither options are physiologic need of a healthy newborn.

  28. Th1Th2 says:

    overshoot,

    “Besides, you’re contradicting yourself. Above you tell us that polio has a low rate of paralytic outcomes.”

    No, I am not. It’s just that the first paragraph you quoted wasn’t mine. Read again.

  29. Chris says:

    Th1Th2:

    What could be better than actually having the actual pathogen (natural infection)?

    Getting the vaccines. They are attenuated or killed or just a part of the microbe. They are not like the actual pathogen. It has been explained to you that the vaccines are safer than the actual infections multiple times.

    If you have actual evidence to the contrary, please present it. It has to be supported with real scientific documentation, not just your opinion.

  30. overshoot says:

    “The more similar a vaccine is to the disease-causing microorganism, the better the immune response.”

    What could be better than actually having the actual pathogen (natural infection)?

    A vaccine which doesn’t cause the disease. Case in point: HPV. The virus has immunosuppressive defenses which either prevent or shorten immune response, whereas the vaccine stimulates an immune response without immunosuppression. Or cancer.

    But again, neither options are physiologic need of a healthy newborn.

    I’m sure that thought is of great comfort to the parents of children with neonatally acquired chronic hepatitis B.

    Keep telling yourself that “healthy” people have nothing to fear from infectious diseases. By the way, would you like to check out some prairie dog colonies on the Colorado Plateau?

  31. WilliamLawrenceUtridge says:

    Th1Th2:

    Fap fap fap. You don’t get taken seriously if you claim principles that violate conventional research without providing citations. Like most vaccine denialists, claiming to know more than the scientists who study the immune response to vaccination just makes you look arrogant, foolish, smug and selfish. This is only strengthened by an inability to reply to actual citations with anything but hand-waving.

  32. Th1Th2 says:

    overshoot,

    “I remain curious as to whether Th1Th2 believes that the surface antigen is contagious, or perhaps that the virus is not.”

    There is no way HbsAg could possibly enter the body unless the virus is present or the HbsAg is transmitted intrusively. The antigen load of Hep B vaccine reflects the antigen load of the virus if they were replicating. How can it be contagious, when everyone else is getting HbsAg directly? There is no need. Of course, such vaccines are so designed to minimize symptoms of hepatitis. If OPV is effective, as so they say, but then causes VAPP, what could be the effect of a live version of Hep B virus causing hepatitis?

  33. Th1Th2 says:

    overshoot,

    “A vaccine which doesn’t cause the disease. Case in point: HPV. The virus has immunosuppressive defenses which either prevent or shorten immune response, whereas the vaccine stimulates an immune response without immunosuppression. Or cancer.”

    Since HPV causes warts, the HPV vaccine, not surprisingly, can also cause warts. Of course, due to some vaccine modifications, some symptoms are inhibited, or are they? Thanks for the package inserts.

    Believing that HPV causes cancer is like believing that an earthquake is a result of having a bad day.

  34. overshoot says:

    There is no way HbsAg could possibly enter the body unless the virus is present or the HbsAg is transmitted intrusively.

    I presume that this means something to initiates of your cult, but to anyone else it’s either trivial or gibberish.

    The antigen load of Hep B vaccine reflects the antigen load of the virus if they were replicating.

    Did you receive this quantitative revelation on stone tablets or from a burning bush?

    How can it be contagious, when everyone else is getting HbsAg directly?

    Definitely gibberish — unless you’re dodging around the fact that unlike the vaccine, the wild virus can infect other people.

    There is no need. Of course, such vaccines are so designed to minimize symptoms of hepatitis.

    You mean by, oh, not being a virus in the first place? By not coopting cellular processes? By not causing cell death and spewing more viruses? By not interfering with cellular defenses which prevent cancer? Stuff like that?

    I really do feel like invoking the Spirit of Orac.

  35. overshoot says:

    Believing that HPV causes cancer is like believing that an earthquake is a result of having a bad day.

    I take it back. The Spirit of Orac is too kind and mild-mannered. You need a good going over by the Spirit of ERV.

  36. weing says:

    Th1,

    You are so deluded that you are not even wrong.

  37. Chris says:

    Okay, I know I will regret this… but I have to do it:

    Th1Th2, during the last year several infants have died from pertussis. The story of Dana McCaffrey was very prominent in Australia, and recently in the USA there was the heart wrenching story of Callie Van Tornhout (her parents tried for five years to have her).

    The CDC statistics show that pertussis is increasing, with an increasing number of infants actually dying from pertussis.

    Please tell us exactly how to prevent pertussis killing infants with vaccinating everyone around them. Show us how parents can protect infants from pertussis. Give us the real actual factual scientific evidence to back up your methods, not just your unsupported opinion.

    Come on! Show us up with your great wisdom! Show us the data that the vaccines are worse than the diseases! Show us your great formula to prevent infant pertussis deaths!

  38. Chris says:

    Sorry, my comment is being moderated.

    I noticed he did not even try to provide me real evidence for how the vaccines are worse than the diseases.

    Infant deaths from pertussis are now increasing. What is Th1Th2′s solution for that?

  39. Dawn says:

    @Th1Th2: You haven’t told me why my mom’s friend died, why my good friend is deaf. They were healthy before their diseases. What happened?
    And why do all my old books have such fear of “common childhood diseases”? Please tell me.

  40. BillyJoe says:

    “Since HPV causes warts, the HPV vaccine, not surprisingly, can also cause warts.”

    “Believing that HPV causes cancer is like believing that an earthquake is a result of having a bad day.”

    Bang, bang, Maxwell’s silver hammer came down upon his head.
    Bang, bang, Maxwell’s silver hammer made sure that he was dead.

  41. overshoot says:

    I noticed he did not even try to provide me real evidence for how the vaccines are worse than the diseases.

    No, it would appear that Th1Th2′s thesis is that since the vaccines provoke immunity to the diseases it follows that the vaccines are identical to the diseases.

    Thus my attention to recombinant hepatitis B surface antigen and the toxoids from diphtheria and tetanus vaccines. Please note that our good Th1Th2 studiously avoids addressing the latter two since they don’t play well with hir delusions.

  42. Zoe237 was discussing the possibility of case-by-case alternate vaccine schedules for children who would not otherwise be vaccinated at all, and speculating on rationales for the American schedule.

    I realized that I use an alternate vaccine schedule for my dogs. The vet sends me a yearly reminder, but I read on the internet somewhere that vaccines are mostly good for two years and that the yearly recommendation is for simplicity and to encourage well-dog visits. I go every two years on the grounds that I don’t want to pay for something I don’t need, and that I take my dogs to the vet for any question that the poor dumb beasts can’t answer directly – which happens fairly often – so additional well-dog visits are superfluous.

    Basically Zoe237’s reasoning, except that I know a lot less about the dog vaccines than Zoe237 knows about HepB. (And of course that I am motivated by saving $80 and Zoe237’s friend is motivated by fear of toxic vaccines.)

  43. Todd W. says:

    @Th1Th2

    Todd W.,

    “Ummm, this might be a silly question, but how do you disallow your body to be contaminated with poliovirus by natural infection? Do you say, “I’m sorry, Mr. Poliovirus, but I will not allow you to infect me”?”

    You’re right. It is silly. But you have at least 3 options, if you really wanted to be contaminated.

    1. Eating fecal matter for as long as Mr Poliovirus is present.
    2. Isolate Mr Poliovirus from the crap and place him on a sugar cube and eat it. You know children love sweets too.
    3. Or let someone inject Mr Poliovirus into your body.

    Your choice?

    Wow. Reading comprehension fail on Th1Th2′s part. I asked how you disallow your body being contaminated with poliovirus and got three options to get infected or inoculated.

    By staying healthy and it’s a no-brainer.

    Ah, so if you stay healthy, then viruses and bacteria just stop at the door and say, “Oh, I don’t want to go in there,” then go about their merry way to some poor “unhealthy” schmuck? Or are there bouncers at the door that keep the virus/bacterium from entering? And don’t say your immune system keeps them out, because they actually need to get in (i.e., contaminate your body) before the immune system can do anything.

    But then, that raises the question of how do you define “healthy”?

    I assume that you practice what you preach, that you “stay healthy”. So, if someone were to expose you to some viruses or bacteria, then, if you are correct in your claims, you would not get sick. On the other hand, if you get sick, then either you weren’t “healthy” to begin with, or you’re full of bollocks. My money’s on the latter.

  44. I think what Th1 Th2 has said before is that an infected person is not healthy and an uninfected person is healthy. Therefore to not get infected with polio (stay healthy) it is only necessary not to become infected (that is, to stay healthy).

    There’s no actual mechanism proposed. It’s a philosophical tautology. Like those centenarians who when asked their secret to living a long life answer, “Keep breathing.”

  45. Todd W. says:

    @Alison Cummins

    Yeah, I realize that. I seem to recall something similar. I also seem to recall suggesting a simple experiment to Th1Th2 as described in my comment: if Th1Th2 is correct, then we should be able to expose him/her to viruses or bacteria and he/she should have nothing to worry about.

  46. If Th1Th2 is correct, then we should be able to expose him/her to viruses or bacteria and he/she should have nothing to worry about.

    No no no no. Because then Th1Th2 would no longer be naive. As soon as that happens, all bets are off. Being exposed *is* the problem. Being exposed is just bad. Vaccines expose, therefore vaccines are bad. There is no difference at all between the badness of being exposed to horrible antigens through vaccination and the badness of being exposed to horrible antigens through any other means. Horrible antigens are just horrible, bad bad bad bad. Exposure is horrible, bad bad bad bad. Naiveté is good good good good! As soon as you are exposed to an antigen, you are no longer naive. Bad bad bad bad.

    Illness has absolutely nothing to do with it. It’s ritual purity, like an obsession with P-in-V virginity. Did you know that the Anglican church declared that Mary had a very tough hymen, permitting her to remain a virgin even after giving birth to her famous son? This legalistic, beside-the-point definition (virginity = intact hymen) is exactly the kind of thing that Th1 Th2 is engaging in. It has nothing to do with being healthy at all.

  47. Th1Th2 says:

    Chris,

    “Please tell us exactly how to prevent pertussis killing infants with vaccinating everyone around them. Show us how parents can protect infants from pertussis. Give us the real actual factual scientific evidence to back up your methods, not just your unsupported opinion.”

    Natural acquired passive immunity protects infants from infectious diseases. Maternal antibodies and self-derived immunoglobulins both have toxin-neutralizing capabilities. Again this is a no-brainer and you cannot refute this fact by substituting this inherent process with the inoculation of nasty disease antigens.

    Pertussis is a failed medical diagnosis and is a result of a failed medical intervention being disguised as an ‘act of saving one’s life’ but in reality an embarassing iatrogenic event. But what happened in between the course of treating the helpless baby is that these medical witchcrafts are again ‘shooting in the dark’ for no apparent reasons. Corynebacteria is a normal resident of every human being. They are restricted by nature not to cause harm but when Modern Medicine started breaching the baby’s innate line of defense thru PICC lines, ETT, antibiotics, etc, , uncontrolled iatrogenic events occured. Even a healthy adult could have suffered the same fate if left in the hands of medical allopathy. The treatment is overdone and unnecessary but as always, Modern Medicine never fails to blame something else to save its ass.

    “Come on! Show us up with your great wisdom! Show us the data that the vaccines are worse than the diseases! Show us your great formula to prevent infant pertussis deaths!”

    Show me some intelligence here come on. You are making me choose between sexual harassment and rape. Like I said neither are physiologic needs LITERALLY!

  48. Todd W. says:

    @Alison Cummins

    Ah, but I also seem to recall Th1Th2 saying in the past that the viruses/bacteria are not, in and of themselves, bad; that in a healthy person, they do not cause problems. I may be remembering wrong, but I seem to recall some germ-theory denial-style comments.

  49. Th1Th2 says:

    Todd W.,

    “Wow. Reading comprehension fail on Th1Th2’s part. I asked how you disallow your body being contaminated with poliovirus and got three options to get infected or inoculated.”

    Those 3 options are not for me, it’s for you. All you have to do is either take it or reject it. As expected, a sound answer to a silly question will remain silly in the mind of a silly person.

    “Ah, so if you stay healthy, then viruses and bacteria just stop at the door and say, “Oh, I don’t want to go in there,” then go about their merry way to some poor “unhealthy” schmuck? Or are there bouncers at the door that keep the virus/bacterium from entering? And don’t say your immune system keeps them out, because they actually need to get in (i.e., contaminate your body) before the immune system can do anything.”

    This makes sense why pro-vaccinators are pro-disease.

    “I assume that you practice what you preach, that you “stay healthy”. So, if someone were to expose you to some viruses or bacteria, then, if you are correct in your claims, you would not get sick. On the other hand, if you get sick, then either you weren’t “healthy” to begin with, or you’re full of bollocks. My money’s on the latter.”

    No, you are just a happy sadist.

  50. weing says:

    He just demonstrated that he needs intelligence and to actually learn something in order to be even wrong.

  51. Todd W. says:

    @Th1Th2

    Those 3 options are not for me, it’s for you. All you have to do is either take it or reject it. As expected, a sound answer to a silly question will remain silly in the mind of a silly person.

    Humor me, O Ye of Infinite Knowledge! Lend me a glimpse of thy phenomenal wisdom, O Great and Powerful Being of Genius! Though I am but a low and silly person, help me to draw nearer to your magnificence, O Benevolent Teacher of All That Is!

    No

    No, as in you do not practice what you preach? No, as in you’re not healthy? Or no, as in you are not full of bollocks? Odd that you answer “no” when no question was asked. Such is the Unknowable Mind of Greatness that graces us with Its presence. We lowly peons, in our ineptitude, can only but despair of ever understanding the complexity of the thought processes you present us, O Bountiful Essence of Perspicacity!

  52. Th1Th2 says:

    Alison Cummins,

    “There’s no actual mechanism proposed. It’s a philosophical tautology. Like those centenarians who when asked their secret to living a long life answer, “Keep breathing.””

    Yes there is an actual mechanism of staying healthy. And it is called ‘physiologic need’. Getting poliovirus is NOT a physiologic need; it is a physiologic threat. I do not care if it is killed, live, parts or whatever.

    “Keep breathing”. True and that’s no secret. Agreed?

  53. Chris says:

    Th1Th2, again… explain how the now dead infants could have obtained the following:

    Natural acquired passive immunity protects infants from infectious diseases. Maternal antibodies and self-derived immunoglobulins both have toxin-neutralizing capabilities. ….

    Show us the mechanism, and the actual documentation. Why do you keep insisting on argument from assertion?

    The fact that these were infants less than two months old with lingering maternal antibodies, and were breastfed, and are now dead pretty much shows you are wrong.

    Do try again. And use actual documentation (I provided links in their names on my first post, which is why it was temporarily moderated, clicking on those links would have provided you their background). Also something more intelligent than:

    Pertussis is a failed medical diagnosis and is a result of a failed medical intervention being disguised as an ‘act of saving one’s life’ but in reality an embarassing iatrogenic event.

    You obviously have no idea why bacterial infections like pertussis, tetanus and diphtheria are difficult to treat with antibiotics. It is because they produce very real, very dangerous toxins.

    When you say : “Corynebacteria is a normal resident of every human being.” Does this mean you expect us to be resistant to all Corynebacteria? How does that work for corynebacterium diphtheriae? Explain more clearly, with references.

  54. Chris says:

    Th1Th2:

    Getting poliovirus is NOT a physiologic need; it is a physiologic threat. I do not care if it is killed, live, parts or whatever.

    So you check every glass of water you drink for poliomyelitis?

    Do you ever drink well water? Or do you rely solely on treated municipal water?

    Do you ever swim in lakes or rivers? Or do you only swim in chlorinated pools?

    Do you ever touch door handles in public places? Or do you carry around alcohol wipes to clean every surface, plus wear gloves?

    Do you ever breathe air in public? Or do you walk around with a face mask?

  55. Harriet Hall says:

    A new study just came out showing that breastfeeding (with all those protective maternal antibodies) does not result in fewer infections than formula feeding. http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/721515?src=rss

  56. Calli Arcale says:

    manixter says:

    Don’t forget about polio! Eradicated in the US, to the extent that we now use the less effective Salk vaccine, since the risk of being exposed to wild-type polio is no longer worth the risk of Sabin-related polio.
    How about diptheria? Tetanus? Measles? Mumps? Rubella? Rabies? (mostly animals and vets). Chickenpox?

    Just as a nitpick, tetanus is the oddball in that list, because it has not been extirpated as have polio, diptheria, etc. Tetanus actually cannot be extirpated, because its natural resevoir is basically Planet Earth. It is largely coincidence that it’s so lethal to humans; the organism does not depend on us to live, and spends the vast majority of its time in the soil, quietly breeding.

    Thus, while we may eliminate polio from this world and thus the need for vaccines against it, we will not eliminate tetanus. We will always have to vaccinate against it. And there is no safety in herd immunity, because you don’t catch it from other people.

    micheleinmichigan says:

    This may be a nonsequitor, but regarding a vaccine shot vs inhaled/nasal, I wanted to point out that in the h1n1 vaccine the shot was recommended over the nasal spray for asthma suffers. I believe this was due to concerns that the nasal spray method for this particular vacinne might trigger asthma symptoms.

    As an asthmatic, I can confirm that. Also, there is a higher chance of adverse effects in general. It’s a live virus, so you have a real chance of getting an actual upper respiratory tract infection from it. Healthy people generally don’t have to worry; their immune systems are up to the job. But if you are in a category more likely to suffer complications of an upper respiratory tract infection, it’s not worth the risk. This is not just asthmatics; it also includes people with other respiratory tract issues, and people who are either over or under a certain age. (First 2009 H1N1 fatality in Minnesota was a hospital director, IIRC. He was too old to be eligible for the nasal vaccine, but too young to have lingering protection from the older strains of H1N1.) The injected version is free of that particular complication.

    It’s ironic, because the inhaled vaccine is usually available more quickly, but the people who most need vaccination can’t receive it. Such is life.

    Harriet Hall:

    A new study just came out showing that breastfeeding (with all those protective maternal antibodies) does not result in fewer infections than formula feeding. http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/721515?src=rss

    Honestly, I’m just a software engineer, but I’ve always wondered how antibodies were supposed to survive the digestive tract in the first place, let alone do something useful inside the child. (I did breastfeed both of my children for over a year, though, so I’m no formula shill. I do think breast is best, but I also think formula is an acceptable substitute, and have known many babies successfully reared on formula.)

  57. Todd W. says:

    @Calli Arcale

    As I understand it, and someone who knows more, please correct me, antibodies from breastfeeding are only really any good for protecting against diseases which have a GI-route of infection. I could be totally off, here, but the range of diseases protected against is rather limited.

  58. Chris says:

    I remember when there was a crazy chiropractor posting on Usenet about a decade ago that vaccines were not necessary if mothers breastfed.

    The fact that my six-month old daughter who was still being breastfed got chicken pox seems to indicate that breastfeeding does not confer immunity.

  59. overshoot says:

    I’ve always wondered how antibodies were supposed to survive the digestive tract in the first place, let alone do something useful inside the child.

    I hope someone who actually knows better corrects me, but …

    The early-infancy digestive system is pretty “leaky:” proteins get through without being completely digested. This is good in that maternal antibodies (and, I suppose, other stuff) gets through and bad in that … other stuff gets through.

  60. BillyJoe says:

    Alison,

    “well-dog visits”

    What does a vet do in a “well dog visit”?
    We have three cats and three dogs and our vet has never suggested a “well dog visit” (or a “well cat visit”).
    Sounds like a money spinner to me.

  61. BillyJoe says:

    “Pertussis is a failed medical diagnosis and is a result of a failed medical intervention being disguised as an ‘act of saving one’s life’ but in reality an embarassing iatrogenic event.”

    Bang, bang, Maxwell’s silver hammer came down upon his head.
    Bang, bang, Maxwell’s silver hammer made sure that he was dead.

  62. BillyJoe says:

    Todd,

    “Humor me, O Ye of Infinite Knowledge! Lend me a glimpse of thy phenomenal wisdom, O Great and Powerful Being of Genius! Though I am but a low and silly person, help me to draw nearer to your magnificence, O Benevolent Teacher of All That Is!”

    Yeah…
    The arrogance of ignorance!

  63. JMB says:

    Would anybody want to be treated by a naturopath whose advice is:
    (1) Avoid pathogens
    (2) Breath

    That takes a lot of scholarship and scientific reasoning to arrive at that profound strategy.

    Take two breaths and call me in the morning.

  64. Calli Arcale says:

    BillyJoe:

    What does a vet do in a “well dog visit”?

    What does a doctor do in a well-child visit, or an adult physical?

    My dogs get annual checkups. The most important test they get is one that you really really really should get if you care about your pooch: a heartworm test, which is a prerequisite for getting another season’s supply of Heartguard. Heartguard is a parasite preventative. It’ll actually also prevent other worms, but the main catch is that it’s only useful against them when they’re hatching. So if there’s an established infestation, the Heartguard will do nothing against it, and that infestation will most likely eventually kill the animal.

    You can probably find an online supplier of Heartguard who will take your word for it that the dog/cat is free of heartworms, but you’re taking a risk by doing so, and heartworm is best treated as early as possible.

    Other things a vet will do in a well-pet visit include:

    * vaccinations (some states still require annual rabies, while others have moved to a 2-year or 3-year schedule, and if your dog stays at a kennel very often, the kennel may require bordatella vaccination, which is an annual thing)

    * check basic health, weight, vitals; useful for detecting problems before they become serious

    * elderly dogs may get bloodwork to check for declining health (liver & kidney function especially)

    * check for other parasites (which requires a stool sample)

    It’s worth doing, IMHO, and not really a scam.

  65. Th1Th2 says:

    Chris,

    “Th1Th2, again… explain how the now dead infants could have obtained the following:

    Natural acquired passive immunity protects infants from infectious diseases. Maternal antibodies and self-derived immunoglobulins both have toxin-neutralizing capabilities. ….

    Show us the mechanism, and the actual documentation. Why do you keep insisting on argument from assertion? ”

    How? Naturally acquired passive immunity takes place in utero transplacentally and through breastfeeding. They are all free. Why do you always have to question these natural events that protected you inside your mother’s womb and nourished you to survive? Is life so unfair to you?

    “The fact that these were infants less than two months old with lingering maternal antibodies, and were breastfed, and are now dead pretty much shows you are wrong.”

    Death by Modern Medicine, that’s what really happened. Overzealous and aggressive treatment with drugs and immunosuppressants that resulted in increased toxicity of the body. Concomitantly, intrusive procedures like IV line insertions, frequent blood draws and parenteral drug administrations have lowered their resistance let alone destroyed their innate defenses thus increasing their susceptibility to other opportunistic microorganisms. It is not the condition but rather the action that aggravated their already toxic body.

  66. On well doggy-kitty visits.

    I’m with Calli on the well doggie visits. The most important thing is the heartworm test and preventative medication. They also do a general check for lumps, weight, listen to the heart, look at the teeth, annual glands, etc. They don’t do all the shots every year. They alternate as needed. I think the only thing my hound gets annually is the bordetella for boarding and the heartworms test/prevention.

    I believe the kitties are on a bi-annual schedule once they are adults, because they don’t have the heartworm test. But, honestly, I’m not sure I just follow the postcards.

  67. Th1Th2 says:

    Chris,

    “You obviously have no idea why bacterial infections like pertussis, tetanus and diphtheria are difficult to treat with antibiotics. It is because they produce very real, very dangerous toxins. ”

    Bacterial toxins are NOT very, very, very dangerous toxins. Unless you are a germ-free creature, we all are hosts to at least 200 species of bacteria for as long as we live here on Earth. But you have to put your assertion into perspective. These microorganisms are restricted to the surface tissues like the skin and mucous membranes because of our innate defenses. But in a setting where syringes and needles predominate, these microorganisms can become unrestricted and invasive in nature. So, that is the reason why such infections are difficult to treat.

    “When you say : “Corynebacteria is a normal resident of every human being.” Does this mean you expect us to be resistant to all Corynebacteria? How does that work for corynebacterium diphtheriae? Explain more clearly, with references.”

    Corynebacteria are normally present in the skin, conjunctiva, nose, pharynx, mouth. lower GI and for females, in the anterior urethra and vagina. But you have to wonder why you don’t usually get sick everyday. May be you can answer your own question because I can answer for myself.

    I find most of your queries somewhat elementary such as all the expected answers to your questions are in the textbooks.

  68. Prometheus says:

    I’m going to have to put this one in a ‘blog post some day:

    Bacterial toxins are NOT very, very, very dangerous toxins. Unless you are a germ-free creature, we all are hosts to at least 200 species of bacteria for as long as we live here on Earth.

    Tetanospasmin
    Botulinum toxin
    Cholera toxin
    Diphtheria toxin
    C. difficile toxin

    I could go on, but what’s the point….

    Not all the products that bacteria make are toxic to humans, not even all the toxins (e.g. Bt toxin is deadly to certain larvae but not to humans). However, the majority of bacterial products that are known as “toxins” (hint: they’re called “toxins” for a reason) are harmful to humans.

    As if we needed any further proof that “Th1Th2″ knows less about biology than a dead gerbil….

    Prometheus

  69. kill3rTcell says:

    Th1Th2,

    “Bacterial toxins are NOT very, very, very dangerous toxins. Unless you are a germ-free creature, we all are hosts to at least 200 species of bacteria for as long as we live here on Earth. But you have to put your assertion into perspective. These microorganisms are restricted to the surface tissues like the skin and mucous membranes because of our innate defenses. But in a setting where syringes and needles predominate, these microorganisms can become unrestricted and invasive in nature. So, that is the reason why such infections are difficult to treat.”

    You are conflating normal flora with the toxins produced by pathogenic species and strains. This is fallacious. The toxins produced by pertussis, tetanus and diphtheria are very dangerous and are responsible for the worst of the disease which results from infection. This is why we administer vaccines that primarily aim to produce antibodies to neutralise their toxins, and why antitoxin will be administered in suspected tetanus infection.

    Your conflation of pathogenic C. diptheriae and the lysogenic, toxogenic strains demonstrates an ignorance for the basics of the toxogenesis of the organism. I expect even the wikipedia page covers this.

    The gene for the diphtheria toxin is carried on a bacteriophage. When that phage inserts itself into the bacterium’s genome the bacterium can now produce the toxin. We call things like this ‘virulence determinants’. Take Hib. It is a common resident of the upper respiratory tract of many people. If it acquires the genes for capsule production it is now far more resistant to phagocytosis and so far more capable of causing disease (though it will vary from person to person, a depressed immune system or predisposing factors, such as smoking, may allow atypical infections from normal flora).

    I hope this answers your question about why we aren’t constantly killed by our own normal flora. Just because two bacteria are of the same species does not mean they carry identical genomes and plasmids. One strain may be commensal while another may be pathogenic.

  70. Th1Th2 says:

    Chris,

    “So you check every glass of water you drink for poliomyelitis? ”

    No, I don’t. Should I be concerned at all?

    “Do you ever drink well water? Or do you rely solely on treated municipal water?”

    I think I did drink water from the well before when I was still a small kid. It did not bother me I tell you that. Treated water, yes.

    Do you ever swim in lakes or rivers? Or do you only swim in chlorinated pools?

    I did cross a small creek. Swimming pools why not.

    “Do you ever touch door handles in public places?”

    Yes I do. I have to or else I’ll be locked up.

    “Or do you carry around alcohol wipes to clean every surface, plus wear gloves?”

    No I don’t.

    “Do you ever breathe air in public? ”

    Yes I do. Why is there a law prohibiting you not to?

    “Or do you walk around with a face mask?”

    No I don’t.

  71. lillym says:

    Arguing with Th1Th2 is like arguing with lizkat (or pet or whoever that was) I raelize they aren’t the same person but Th1Th2 is going to always argue that modern medicine is evil and kills people.

    There could be another 10000 posts and no one is ever going to change Th1Th2′s mind.

  72. Chris says:

    Then how do you avoid pathogenic microbes?

    And would you be willing to subject yourself to corynebacterium diphtheriae?

    By the way, you still have not provided any references. Do you even know what they are? Did all of your school research reports end with one reference that said “Because I said so”?

  73. Th1Th2 says:

    killerTcell,

    “You are conflating normal flora with the toxins produced by pathogenic species and strains. This is fallacious. The toxins produced by pertussis, tetanus and diphtheria are very dangerous and are responsible for the worst of the disease which results from infection.”

    A normal flora could become pathogenic ONLY in certain instances where they REACH a site where they cannot be restricted or tolerated by the host defense such as a bypass of the innate system or a compromised health. In short, they are NOT supposed to be in the blood, brain, muscle, CSF etc. But until then, these normal flora do not cause harm to the host for as long as balance is present. Ironically, normal flora could also offer physiologic benefits to the hosts such as maturation of the adaptive immune response due to existing antigenic stimulation.

    “This is why we administer vaccines that primarily aim to produce antibodies to neutralise their toxins, and why antitoxin will be administered in suspected tetanus infection.”

    And what makes you think the unvaccinated do not possess such toxin-neutralizing antibodies? Where in hell did you come up with the idea that vaccines are the source of neutralizing antibodies?

    “Your conflation of pathogenic C. diptheriae and the lysogenic, toxogenic strains demonstrates an ignorance for the basics of the toxogenesis of the organism. I expect even the wikipedia page covers this. The gene for the diphtheria toxin is carried on a bacteriophage. When that phage inserts itself into the bacterium’s genome the bacterium can now produce the toxin. We call things like this ‘virulence determinants’. ”

    Again, the virulence of C. diphtheriae does not rely on toxigenicity alone. Invasion to susceptible tissues has to occur prior to toxigenesis. But until then they are harmless.

    “Take Hib. It is a common resident of the upper respiratory tract of many people. If it acquires the genes for capsule production it is now far more resistant to phagocytosis and so far more capable of causing disease (though it will vary from person to person, a depressed immune system or predisposing factors, such as smoking, may allow atypical infections from normal flora).”

    That’s it, be healthy and do not smoke.

    “I hope this answers your question about why we aren’t constantly killed by our own normal flora. Just because two bacteria are of the same species does not mean they carry identical genomes and plasmids. One strain may be commensal while another may be pathogenic.”

    Normal flora are not designed by nature to kill the host, hence, the term “normal”. But ever since Modern Medicine have corrupted human health through the use of irrational invasive procedures, toxic and immunosuppressive drugs, antibiotics, and VACCINES, a plethora of imbalances have been created.

  74. Chris says:

    Did you graduate from Patriot University with Kent Hovind? Did your dissertation also start out with “Hello, my name is TT.”?

    Where are your reverences? That means actual data and science in real documents (not random webpages or news articles) to back your assertions. Provide them, or you shall be known in the future as just a loon pecking away at a computer keyboard in your mother’s basement.

    Though, you are giving us lots of good comedy material. Almost as good at the guy who claimed that he does not allow germs to take hold of his body because he controls the pH of his body (how he makes his body alkaline with HCl in his stomach is a mystery).

    I love this quote from you:

    Normal flora are not designed by nature to kill the host, hence, the term “normal”.

    Newsflash, loon: Nature actually wants you dead. It is designed for each organism to do what it needs to survive, and if that means killing the host. It will.

    (for fun, look up what taxoplamosis does to rodents)

    What color is the sky on your planet?

  75. Th1Th2 says:

    Prometheus,

    “Not all the products that bacteria make are toxic to humans, not even all the toxins (e.g. Bt toxin is deadly to certain larvae but not to humans). However, the majority of bacterial products that are known as “toxins” (hint: they’re called “toxins” for a reason) are harmful to humans.”

    Bacterial toxins, in situ, are innocuous, you just don’t know it. In fact, your humoral immunity benefits a lot from it, you just don’t feel it.

  76. Th1Th2 says:

    Dawn,

    “@Th1Th2: You haven’t told me why my mom’s friend died, why my good friend is deaf. They were healthy before their diseases. What happened?
    And why do all my old books have such fear of “common childhood diseases”? Please tell me.”

    I do not know. I can only guess at the moment just like what doctors do a lot in practice.

  77. Chris says:

    Does you mom bring your food down to the basement? Or do you have to go up and get it yourself?

    Do you even see the sky on your planet?

  78. kill3rTcell says:

    Wow.

    Two words: opportunistic pathogens.

  79. BillyJoe says:

    Calli Arcale,

    Fair enough regarding the healthy dog check.

    I was thinking of the healthy god check as a separate visit from the annual vaccination visit. Our dogs get vaccinations every year and a quick routine checkup (heart, lungs, abdomen, weight) is done along with giving the vaccines.
    Apparently, heart worm is not much of an issue here and is thought not to be worth checking for or vaccinating against.

    (This was from my wife who actually takes them to the vet)

  80. BillyJoe says:

    ….just to add:

    My wife apparently is more concerned for our dogs than for her husband becasue she’s never taken me for a healthy person check!

    Should I be concerned? :(

  81. BillyJoe says:

    micheleinmichigan,

    “…look at the teeth, annual glands, etc.”

    Oh yes the teeth get checked but the food is good and the teeth are actually perfect.
    And the dogs’ as well.

    As for the annual glands…oh, please not that! Can we perhaps save that for another day?

    “I believe the kitties are on a bi-annual schedule”

    As far as I’m concerned those friggin’ free loadin’ kitties can get #$@^%$!
    Well, if not for the toxoplasmosis and worms they can pass on.

  82. BillyJoe says:

    “Corynebacteria are normally present in … for females, the anterior urethra and vagina. But you have to wonder why you don’t usually get sick everyday. May be you can answer your own question because I can answer for myself.”

    Let me guess…
    You don’t get anywhere near those areas in your interpersonal relationships.

  83. Calli Arcale says:

    BillyJoe:

    I was thinking of the healthy god check as a separate visit from the annual vaccination visit. Our dogs get vaccinations every year and a quick routine checkup (heart, lungs, abdomen, weight) is done along with giving the vaccines.
    Apparently, heart worm is not much of an issue here and is thought not to be worth checking for or vaccinating against.

    Fair enough; basically, you *are* taking yours in for an annual well-pet visit. (Or at least, your wife is.) ;-) A well- visit is just one where the animal/person/whatever isn’t actually there for illness or injury but just regular maintenance care.

    Heartworm populations vary. If you live in a dry climate, it’s probably not as much as a problem. There’s actually no vaccine for heartworm; instead, there is a monthly antiparasitic that can be taken. Also prevents roundworms, which is why I now keep my dogs on Heartguard year-round instead of just in the summer.

    My wife apparently is more concerned for our dogs than for her husband becasue she’s never taken me for a healthy person check!

    Should I be concerned? :(

    Maybe she thinks that’s your business, and leaves it up to you? I think people should get an annual physical, and so should their pets. But funds are an issue for some people, and it’s inconvenient to go to the doctor, plus you have to wear one of those stupid gowns and get prodded in personal places, so a lot of people don’t get physicals. But they can help catch problems before they become *really* expensive. So I think if it’s financially viable, you should do it. And if you’re wife’s not getting her physicals either, the same goes for her.

    I’m a big proponent of preventative care; does it show? ;-)

  84. Todd W. says:

    @Th1Th2

    Still waiting for a response.

    Bacterial toxins, in situ, are innocuous, you just don’t know it. In fact, your humoral immunity benefits a lot from it, you just don’t feel it.

    [Citation needed.]

  85. Chris says:

    For the reading challenged (and because it is so much fun to listen to), this entry is now a quackcast.

    Because the world need more Mark Crislip.

  86. Th1Th2 says:

    Mark Crislip,

    “What vaccinations offer is small, controlled, harmless amounts of antigens and neutered pathogens, rather than the prodigious free-for-all of morbidity and mortality from natural disease.” http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=289

    Thanks but no thanks.

    Your offer is thereby rejected.

  87. Th1Th2 says:

    Chris,

    “Then how do you avoid pathogenic microbes?
    And would you be willing to subject yourself to corynebacterium diphtheriae? ”

    How do you plan to infect me with C. diphththeriae anyway?

    “By the way, you still have not provided any references. Do you even know what they are? Did all of your school research reports end with one reference that said “Because I said so”?”

    They are all in most medical/immunology/bacteriology books. Do I have to say they are found in Chapter 1?

  88. pmoran says:

    “By the way, you still have not provided any references.”

    Th1Th2: “They are all in most medical/immunology/bacteriology books. Do I have to say they are found in Chapter 1?”

    Intriguing. Find me one of your chosen reference sources which does not support the principles and practice of vaccination.

    While you are at it, find one that shares your apparent conviction that innate, inborn barriers are an equivalent defense against the infections concerned. Find me any evidence, anywhere for that.

  89. Chris says:

    Diphtheria is kept in laboratories, and is used in scientific research. It is readily available. I am sure that if you really wanted to prove you were invulnerable, some unscrupulous person would love to infect you.

    If the “facts” you are spouting are in most medical/immunology/bacteriology books, how come everything you write is so wrong? Especially the bit about toxins from pertussis, tetanus and diphtheria not being dangerous. Really, give us the title and page that of the book where you read that!

    You are getting even more loony.

  90. Th1Th2 says:

    pmoran,

    “Intriguing. Find me one of your chosen reference sources which does not support the principles and practice of vaccination.”

    Well, you will understand the principle and practice of vaccination if you are going to BREACH Chapter 1- the Innate Immune System. That is why, Hepatitis B and Hep B vaccine are both discussed in later chapters. Understood?

    “While you are at it, find one that shares your apparent conviction that innate, inborn barriers are an equivalent defense against the infections concerned. Find me any evidence, anywhere for that.”

    Just take a look at your skin and tell me its purpose, if there is any?

  91. overshoot says:

    Diphtheria is kept in laboratories, and is used in scientific research. It is readily available. I am sure that if you really wanted to prove you were invulnerable, some unscrupulous person would love to infect you.

    Oh, don’t do that to some poor soul who might feel guilty about the ethics involved.

    However, Th1Th2 could come out to the Colorado Plateau for this spring and help Fish and Wildlife to do deer mouse surveys and help clean up fire towers for the Forest Service. Most people are concerned about cleaning up deer mouse nests (droppings etc.) but our Th1Th2 apparently has nothing to worry about.

  92. Chris says:

    I did say “unscrupulous.”

  93. kitto says:

    So, errr…. how about those 9 questions eh?

    Any response from the N.D. (Not a Doctor)?

  94. DREads says:

    Why is it SBM posts on vaccines always end up in a 100+ comment flame war?

  95. Chris says:

    The words contentious, fearmongering, emotional parenting and science illiteracy come to mind. Oh, and so does fraud that feeds off of the fear people have for needles, plus the vulnerability of parents with disabled children. Add to that the greed of ambulance chasing lawyers (like the one who hired Wakefield, and the ones used to stop the use of a Lyme Disease vaccine).

    For more insight read Arthur Allen’s book Vaccine, and Dr. Paul Offit’s book The Cutter Incident.

    Oh, have you read the nonsense posted by the Th1Th2 loon?

  96. Prometheus says:

    PMoran asks Th1Th2 as simple question:

    “Intriguing. Find me one of your chosen reference sources which does not support the principles and practice of vaccination.”

    Th1Th2 responds, in typical non-answer format:

    “Well, you will understand the principle and practice of vaccination if you are going to BREACH Chapter 1- the Innate Immune System. That is why, Hepatitis B and Hep B vaccine are both discussed in later chapters. Understood?”

    Th1Th2, has repeatedly claimed that his “knowledge” about the immune system can be found in basic texts. To quote:

    “They are all in most medical/immunology/bacteriology books. Do I have to say they are found in Chapter 1?

    Well, I went through the basic immunology text in my bookshelf (Kuby Immunology, 6th edition, 2006) and the authors of that text appear to have a different take on immunology, vaccines, etc. than Th1Th2.

    Imagine my surprise.

    So, if it wouldn’t be too much trouble, Th1Th2, could you give us the title of just one of the texts you have used in formulating your….. eccentric understanding of immunology? If there is a text that agrees with you, I’d like to read it.

    Of course, I’m not going to be holding my breath….

    Prometheus

  97. David Gorski says:

    Any response from the N.D. (Not a Doctor)?

    None, other than crickets chirping.

  98. overshoot says:
    Any response from the N.D. (Not a Doctor)?

    None, other than crickets chirping.

    It was ever thus. The quickest way to shut up the wooists is to just follow up on the implications of their own Bravo Sierra and keep asking them to explain it.

    Logic is not them.

  99. BillyJoe
    “I was thinking of the healthy god check as a separate visit from the annual vaccination visit.”

    Since you believe that the laws of physics preclude the existence of god, you definitely don’t have to spring for a healthy god check. :) And really, what kind of diagnostic procedure could you use for a god anyway? Turn your preferred solar system and cough?

    Regarding your wife, don’t take it too hard. I don’t take my husband in for well visits either. I figure, unlike the dog, cats and kids, he can use the phone and drive.

    “As far as I’m concerned those friggin’ free loadin’ kitties can get #$@^%$!”

    I see you’ve met my cats.

  100. BillyJoe says:

    I had to check that. I did say “healthy god check”. Goddamn!

    “And really, what kind of diagnostic procedure could you use for a god anyway? Turn your preferred solar system and cough?”

    Turn your preferred solar system and cough?
    Hey now, this is getting really weird.

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