Articles

236 thoughts on “Pockets of Vaccine Noncompliance in California

  1. Th1Th2 says:

    Comparing microbial/viral antigens to boiled or fresh corns is absolutely illogical and deceiving. First of all, the presence of antigens (corns) in the host (soil), which is BAD, is something that should be checked, destroyed and eliminated in order not to induce infection. On the contrary, spreading freshly picked corns in the soil in order for them to grow is beneficial to the host as a food source, which is GOOD. And planting boiled corns in the soil is insane. Now, did you see the fallacy of your analogy? I wouldn’t use that again as an example if I were you.

    Again, the significance of viral/microbial replication (natural infection or live vaccines) in the body is to produce more antigens to cause the disease and immunogenicity. Likewise, killed vaccines, which obviously are incapable of replication in the body, compensates by increasing antigen quantification in the vaccine and the addition of adjuvants that will promote both pathogenicity and immunogenicity. Vaccines cannot fool the body.

    Vaccine-induced infection, like natural infection, is necessary to induce immunogenicity.

    “VACCINE-INDUCED or natural upper respiratory tract INFECTION in humans may not engender an optimally protective memory Tc-cell population because of insufficient number or composition. However, a large number of memory T cells may also result in immunopathologic manifestations (14,18), which tend to be associated with excessive inflammatory responses in acute infections. Thus, a universal vaccine based on the induction of a strong memory-Tc response might necessitate a difficult balancing act between protection and immunopathologic changes. Unless one can identify a particularly protective memory Tc-cell population that is poorly induced by natural or VACCINE-INDUCED INFECTION, the nondiscriminatory enhancement of memory T-cell populations may not be a promising approach for a universal influenza vaccine.”
    http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/EID/vol12no04/05-1020.htm

    “Hepatitis B vaccine can induce transient hepatitis B surface antigen positivity not only in adult hemodialysis patients but also in normal adults and children. The frequency of its occurrence is largely unknown but its duration does not exceed 28 days.”
    http://www.hepatitisbannual.org/article.asp?issn=0972-9747;year=2007;volume=4;issue=1;spage=55;epage=60;aulast=Singh

    “Live mumps virus vaccine** is prepared in chick-embryo cell culture. From its introduction in December 1967, through 1981, more than 55 million doses have been distributed in the United States. The vaccine produces a subclinical, non-communicable infection with very few side effects.”
    http://aepo-xdv-www.epo.cdc.gov/wonder/PrevGuid/p0000210/p0000210.asp

    2) Bogger-Goren S. “Antibody Response to Varicella-Zoster Virus after Natural or Vaccine-Induced Infection,” The Journal of Infectious Diseases Vol. 146 8/82 p. 260.

  2. weing says:

    It is just as insane to define disease by the transient HBsAg presence in the blood despite the source. It is not a live vaccine. Your reasoning about what constitutes a a disease is wrong and just as insane. Go back to school.

  3. Dr Benway says:

    Th1Th2, how does the HBsAg differ from the Hepatitis B virus?

  4. Th1Th2 says:

    Dr. Benway,

    HbsAg is the virulence factor of HBV. Similarly, the virulence factor for Hib is the polysaccharide capsule. It is like the venom of a rattlesnake. The venom is the HbsAg whereas the snake is the HBV. Producing more rattlesnake will increase the venom supply (replication). If you don’t want the rattlesnake to stay in your body, you can just increase the collection of the venom (antigen quantification), preserve it (adjuvants) and kill the snake (killed vaccine). Either way, they both exhibit a lethal effect to the host.

    This is the reason vaccines are poison to the body. Vaccine is NOT a placebo not to cause disease.

  5. wales says:

    The LA Times has set up a blog on the topic of vaccine exemption. http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2009/03/rising-vaccine.html

    Here’s a gem:

    “There is a difference between the mercury found in fish and the mercury once found in routine childhood vaccines. The version found in fish is known as methylmercury, which can accumulate in fish and humans. The kind that was used in vaccines is known as ethylmercury, which does not accumulate in the body and is actively excreted via the gut, according to the World Health Organization.

    The distinction is not trivial, wrote Dr. Paul Offit, chief of infectious diseases at Children’s Hospital of Philadelphia, who wrote about the issue in his book, “Autism’s False Prophets,” published in 2008.
    “An analogy can can be made between ethylalcohol, contained in wine and beer, and methylalcohol, contained in wood alcohol,” Offit wrote. “Wine and beer can cause headaches and hangovers; wood alcohol causes blindness.”

    The various alcohols mentioned would be ingested orally. How can parenterally administered ethylmercury be excreted via the gut? Vaccines are administered parenterally precisely to avoid the gut, right?

  6. Th1Th2 says:

    The medical community will call it transient HbsAg positivity just to comfort the patient, but in reality, the patient just got infected with acute Hepatitis B (vaccine-induced hepatitis). Without this knowledge of the patient, the resultant antibody production will prod the doctor to declare that the patient has gained immunity to Hepatitis B. What the patient didn’t know is that vaccine-induced immunity will protect (although not guaranteed) him/her from FUTURE exposure to Hepatitis B because the INITIAL exposure has already taken place with the vaccination itself. This is how they play the game.

  7. weing says:

    You can’t even read the refs you give correctly. You do exactly what the authors warn about. You mistake the presence of the Ag to be an indicator of an infection.

  8. hatch_xanadu says:

    Th1Th2, I think it might be to your advantage if you steer clear of the analogies yourself. And parentheses (rattlesnakes).

  9. Th1Th2 says:

    It is not a mistake. The medical community is just playing games with innocent patients by distorting the facts deliberately. What the author didn’t realize is that the presence of HbsAg in the blood is a significant indicator of acute hepatitis B infection regardless whether the patient is symptomatic or not. The author did not include pregnant mothers, intentionally, to avoid contradiction and criticism.

    “Vaccination with RECOMBIVAX HB is recommended for:
    1) Infants including those born to HBsAg positive mothers (high-risk infants).”

    http://www.merck.com/product/usa/pi_circulars/r/recombivax_hb/recombivax_pi.pdf

    If vaccine-induced HbsAg in the blood doesn’t sound risky to you or to the infant, then what is?

  10. weing says:

    That’s because you don’t know anything about medicine. Don’t feel bad. Not everyone is capable of learning.

  11. Th1Th2 says:

    Let me quote this one more time:

    “Currently available vaccines have largely been developed
    empirically, with little or no understanding on how they
    activate the immune system.”

    http://www.who.int/immunization/documents/Elsevier_Vaccine_immunology.pdf

    Don’t worry. There is actually no science behind vaccination so there is nothing to argue about its wonders (black magic). Vaccines are only worth discussing its pathogenic nature and toxic side-effects to humans.

  12. Th1Th2 says:

    hatch,

    In order to induce immunogenicity, there should be a significant amount of antigen load in the blood. There are several factors to make it happen:

    1. Viral/microbial replication in vivo. (live vaccines like MMR)
    2. Increasing antigen quantification in vitro. (killed vaccines)
    3. Use of adjuvants.

  13. Calli Arcale says:

    The various alcohols mentioned would be ingested orally. How can parenterally administered ethylmercury be excreted via the gut? Vaccines are administered parenterally precisely to avoid the gut, right?

    Sort of; they’re administered intramuscularly in order to provoke the desire immune response with a minimum of side effects.

    The analogy, though, has nothing to do with excretion but rather is an illustration of the fact that different but similar compounds can behave quite differently. I think he picked those two because ethanol and methanol are indeed extremely similar chemically, but have quite different effects on the body. He could also have discussed sodium chloride, a compound formed from two very poisonous elements which is nevertheless so safe (in moderation) that it is the most popular seasoning in history.

    Mercury can probably be excreted through the gut, though. I’m not an expert on mercury itself, but I know the body does excrete a lot of stuff in bile. Anything the liver cleans out ends up in the bile, and that indeed leaves the body via the gut.

  14. wales says:

    Chris, we seem to each be emphasizing different facets of the referenced paper. Again, I realize the paper recommends vaccination and maintaining herd immunity.

    The facet I was referring to was the evidence contained in the paper for increased susceptibility of infants to measles due to mass vaccine induced immunity. Prior to mass measles vaccination, infants of mothers with natural immunity to measles were protected by maternal antibodies for a much longer period of time than infants of mothers with vaccine induced immunity to measles. Thus, mass vaccination policies have resulted in increased infant susceptibility.

    Increased Susceptibility to Measles in Infants in the United States
    Mark Papania, MD, MPH et al PEDIATRICS Vol. 104 No. 5 November 1999, p. e59

    I really don’t think we need belabor the point any longer. I see both facets of the article, you see only one.

  15. Dr Benway says:

    Th1Th2,

    The Hepatitis B surface antigen is merely a lipoprotein on the surface of the Hepatitis B virus. The virus itself is made up of a lot more stuff.

    The surface antigen doesn’t cause disease. The virus causes disease by invading and damaging cells.

    Analogy: A child goes missing. Parents give an item of clothing to the police, who let the bloodhounds sniff it to learn the child’s scent.

    The child’s scent is analogous to the surface antigen.
    The bloodhounds are analogous to the immune system.
    And the child is analogous to the virus.

    We teach the immune system about one of the antigens on the surface of the Hepatitis B virus so that it can recognize and respond to the actual virus more quickly and effectively.

    Yes, vaccines were developed years ago without much understanding of immunity. We’ve learned a lot since then.

    wales,

    What you’re saying is, women should have their titres checked before getting pregnant and should be re-vaccinated if the titers are too low. That way, the mother’s immunity can protect the child via breast feeding.

  16. Th1Th2 says:

    Dr. Benway,

    Nothing has changed regarding the principles of vaccination thus far. Its putative practice still lies in a spot outside of science.

    Antigens are pathogenic, the same way allergens are allergenic. Both can stimulate an immune response which are manifested and externalized into symptoms. The degree of the immunogenicity and symptomatology depend on the amount of the antigen and allergen being introduced in the body. The mere presence of HbsAg alone in the blood would promote symptoms of Hepatitis B likewise a trace amount of peanut powder would elicit allergic reactions/atopy. Vaccination and sensitization are one and the same.Vaccines are so designed to attenuate (sounds familiar?) the SYMPTOMS of the disease by deliberate genetic transmutation of an infectious disease to become non-infectious. It does not rule out the disease because the disease itself is necessary to establish immunity. This is equivalent to the desensitization therapy in peanut allergy.

    Just look at the diagnostic similarities of Hepatitis B vaccine reactions against an acute Hepatitis B infection. Their common denominator is the presence of HbsAg in the blood.

    Hepatitis B vaccine http://www.merck.com/product/usa/pi_circulars/r/recombivax_hb/recombivax_pi.pdf

    ADVERSE REACTIONS

    BODY AS A WHOLE
    The most frequent systemic complaints include fatigue/weakness; headache; fever (≥100°F); and malaise.
    DIGESTIVE SYSTEM
    Nausea; and diarrhea
    DIGESTIVE SYSTEM
    Vomiting; abdominal pains/cramps; dyspepsia; and diminished appetite
    INTEGUMENTARY SYSTEM
    Pruritus; rash (non-specified); angioedema; and urticaria
    DIGESTIVE SYSTEM
    Elevation of liver enzymes; constipation

    From the CDC website: http://www.cdc.gov/hepatitis/HBV/HBVfaq.htm#treatment

    What are the signs and symptoms of HBV infection?

    The presence of signs and symptoms varies by age. Most children under age 5 years and newly infected immunosuppressed adults are asymptomatic, whereas 30%–50% of persons aged ≥5 years have initial signs and symptoms. When present, signs and symptoms can include

    * Fever
    * Fatigue
    * Loss of appetite
    * Nausea
    * Vomiting
    * Abdominal pain
    * Dark urine
    * Clay-colored bowel movements
    * Joint pain
    * Jaundice

    The HBV can be destroyed and eliminated by TH1 cells and the complement even without the presence of antibodies (cell-mediated immunity). This is the true immunity.

  17. wales says:

    Dr. Benway, I don’t make health care recommendations. Your recommendations are necessitated by the loss of natural immunity due to vaccine induced immunity. I understand that as a physician, you are focused on a solution to the dilemma of infant susceptibles. I am looking back to the cause of the dilemma.

    We don’t yet know if the measles models are accurate, but they are predicated upon the existence of two new groups of susceptibles (infants and adults) caused by vaccine induced immunity.

  18. Dr Benway says:

    Th1Th2,

    I received the Hep B vaccination series without any side effects. Didn’t get sick; didn’t miss work. Certainly didn’t get hepatitis.

    Our bodies are bombarded with foreign antigens every day. We make antibodies to these antigens. We don’t necessarily get sick in the process of making those antibodies.

  19. Dr Benway says:

    wales, there’s no natural immunity without suffering measles. Thanks, but no thanks.

  20. HCN says:

    Dr. Benway, just at a glance I believe wales/”just the facts” believes that the only way one should become immune to measles is by actual exposure, and to just skip the MMR. The only reason I can fathom is that he must believe only those who survive measles deserve to live. A type of eugenics.

    Just another reason to ignore him.

  21. Th1Th2 says:

    Dr. Benway,

    “I received the Hep B vaccination series without any side effects. Didn’t get sick; didn’t miss work. Certainly didn’t get hepatitis.”

    It is because 30-50% of older children, adolescents and adults have asymptomatic infections. It is also common in children <10 years of age. Your Hepatitis B series is actually your initial exposure to Hepatitis B and the antibodies you developed protected you from the vaccine-induced HbsAg and will further protect you, although not guaranteed, from future exposure.
    You certainly acquired an acute and asymptomatic case of Hepatitis B (vaccine-induced HbsAg positivity) but the good thing is, your body was able to eliminate the antigen with concomitant seroconversion. This only proves that a natural Hepatitis B infection is self-limiting even with or without antibody production.

    “Our bodies are bombarded with foreign antigens every day. We make antibodies to these antigens. We don’t necessarily get sick in the process of making those antibodies.”

    Yes, exogenous antigens are abundant and we are exposed everyday. But protection does not always require antibody production because these antigens including those etiologic agents of common childhood diseases, naturally, are mediated and eliminated at the cellular level (CMI and complement). So why vaccinate? On the other hand, vaccination skews this normal pattern instead triggers hyperactivation of the humoral arm of immunity (antibody production) which causes inhibition of cellular immunity. So what happens next is, instead of the antigenic toxins being eliminated out of the body, the host retains them inside for a prolonged period of time.

  22. wales says:

    HCN, yet another insulting label (straight out of the concern troll playbook, again). Can’t the readers decide for themselves who to ignore? Or must you dictate to them?

    Labeling proponents of vaccine choice as “child abusers” or “pro-disease” “pro-eugenics” or “anti-science” is just a juvenile schoolyard tactic. In fact when I see these labels being tossed about by scientists, I question their ability to think and communicate rationally.

    If I may quote sbm blogger Harriet Hall here on the subject of insulting comments “I treasure comments like those as evidence that my critics are so bankrupt of real arguments that they have to dip into the insult pouch for ammunition.” (Harriet Hall 10/21/08 blog on Acupuncture) Though we may disagree on some things and I know Harriet probably objects to the use of her quote in this context, I honestly love that quote.

  23. Calli Arcale says:

    wales:

    Dr. Benway, I don’t make health care recommendations. Your recommendations are necessitated by the loss of natural immunity due to vaccine induced immunity. I understand that as a physician, you are focused on a solution to the dilemma of infant susceptibles. I am looking back to the cause of the dilemma.

    Natural immunity wanes too, believe it or not. (I’ve had chickenpox twice, for instance. Never been vaccinated against it.) And there would be more infants catching measles if it was endemic, which is what measles would be if we didn’t routinely vaccinate against measles.

    In the course of any vaccine campaign, there will come a time when the disease is nearly extirpated. During this time, outbreaks will be rare to nonexistent, with only isolated cases usually associated with somebody traveling abroad to a country where it remains endemic. Infants without measles antibodies will be at particular risk if they encounter someone carrying measles. But that would be very rare, since most infants don’t encounter people who’ve been exposed to a disease that is virtually extirpated from their homeland.

    That’s why the “babies are more vulnerable with vaccination” argument doesn’t hold up. While it’s true that a baby whose mother didn’t catch measles or get recently vaccinated will have less protection than a baby whose mother had measles as a child, it’s also true that if we routinely vaccinate against measles, the odds of the child ever encountering the disease are very nearly zero. And since maternal antibodies, even from the real disease, are not a 100% protection, and since not everybody will contract measles in their lifetime even if its endemic, the child in the country without measles vaccination is at much higher risk of getting measles than the child in the country with 95% measles vaccine compliance.

    Or, to put it more simply, measles herd immunity is a more effective defense than maternal measles antibodies.

    BTW, wales, I appreciate your remaining calm in the face of insults. I hope that you continue to do so. A lot of folks here have become very tired of combating closed-minded anti-vaccinationists, many of whom are quite abusive, and that is what fuels such responses. You don’t seem to be a troll; you seem to be a reasonable person, and it is a breath of fresh air to hear vaccine concerns from someone who is not out to promote a pseudoscientific agenda but rather someone who appears to be truly open-minded, even to the possibility of being wrong.

    I think you will find that the people who have insulted you here are *not* bankrupt of real arguments. They’ve just become tired of repeating themselves to people with closed minds. (I’ve seen the same thing happen on space-related forums when someone brings up the Face on Mars or Apollo hoax arguments.) Hopefully they will realize that you are *not* closed minded, and that there is value in putting forth their arguments once again.

  24. Dr Benway says:

    Th1Th2, my entire medical school got the Hep B series at about the same time. As far as I know, not a single person became sick.

    Exposure to an antigen does not equal infection with a virus.

    I find your difficulty distinguishing part of a virus from the whole virus strange. It’s as though you’d mistake my hat for me.

    No false modesty here: my cock is huge compared to my hat’s cock.

  25. wales says:

    Calli, I don’t consider myself an anti-vaccinationist, which is just another convenient label, derived from subjective opinion. One could make the argument that the practice of labeling others is a prime example of a closed mind. Though I understand that scientists are often preoccupied with taxonomy, it is too often used on this site and others to dismiss legitimate arguments.

    I don’t deny, and never have, that vaccines can work, albeit at varying rates of efficacy, for varying lengths of time, with varying rates of adverse side effects. I also don’t think it’s a matter of being right or wrong, of course I am not infallible, nor is anyone else.

    I simply support vaccine exemption rights. I don’t try to convince anyone that they shouldn’t vaccinate, I support their right to choose, without public vilification. Some may think that it is irrational to admit that vaccines can be effective yet still advocate for choice. So be it, you are entitled to your opinions.

    Was Dr. Benway’s choice of comparison organ and vulgar terminology rational? Or intended to shock? I can imagine the uproarious laughter it generated from colleagues, but not all readers are impressed or amused. A new low, skeptics indulging in locker room humor.

  26. wales says:

    BTW, yes chicken pox has been known to occur more than once. However, the subject was measles.

  27. Calli Arcale says:

    wales,

    Calli, I don’t consider myself an anti-vaccinationist, which is just another convenient label, derived from subjective opinion.

    That’s why I specifically chose to describe you as someone with vaccine concerns, as opposed to the closed-minded pseudoscientific anti-vaccinationists who have sparred with various commenters here. While I normally avoid labels, there are a few for whom that term actually does fit (and who would proudly wear it), and there has been an anti-vaccination movement for as long as there have been vaccines.

    I simply support vaccine exemption rights. I don’t try to convince anyone that they shouldn’t vaccinate, I support their right to choose, without public vilification. Some may think that it is irrational to admit that vaccines can be effective yet still advocate for choice.

    I would describe that as a libertarian approach. (I don’t mean that in a pejorative way; my late grandfather was probably the biggest libertarian I know, and I had tremendous respect for him.) I can respect that.

    However, if you are arguing that people should have the right to refuse vaccinations on whim (rather than due to medical necessity or religious concerns), then I have to disagree. When it comes to diseases like measles, the vaccines work best if almost everyone (90% or better is the usual target) is vaccinated. So if we are serious about wiping out certain diseases, we have to require that everyone get vaccinated unless there is a good reason not to in their specific case.

    This is the main reason why I do not think “personal choice” exemptions should be allowed for the “public health” vaccines (those administered as part of a nationwide campaign to extirpate the pathogen). HPV? Skip it, fine. That’s totally up to the individual, because that vaccine is only administered to protect the patient, personally. (And future sexual partners, but one would assume that to be a very limited list.)

    There is another reason I object to the “just ‘cuz” exemptions. People who choose not to vaccinate without a good medical reason are generally doing so because they don’t understand the risk/benefit analysis. If there is no reason to think your child could have one of the extremely rare conditions that has problems with vaccines, then you really should vaccinate them. The risk of them having an adverse reaction is much less than the risk of them getting the diseases, unless you plan on raising them in a bubble.

    (And folks can call me a prude, but I agree with you about Dr Benway’s “cock” line. I have enormous respect for Dr Benway, but I really didn’t like that line. Maybe it’s just because I’m a woman, I don’t know.)

  28. weing says:

    Envy?

  29. wales says:

    I never advocated a “just cuz” attitude. I have stated elsewhere that parents can make a rational risk/benefit analysis and conclude to abstain from or selectively vaccinate. I don’t advocate a “just cuz” attitude about anything.

    For what it’s worth, I have never considered myself to be a libertarian. Though I have no objection to those who are proud of the label.

    I was just about to suggest that perhaps Dr. Benway’s comments reveal his own psychological predispositions, when my friend weing has chimed in with his own. No, I don’t think being exasperated by puerile humor is a gender specific trait.

    Thanks for your level-headed approach, Calli.

  30. weing says:

    I disagree. People rarely make rational decisions. They may only think they do.

  31. wales says:

    That’s often true (hey weing, we almost agree on something). That could apply to the decision to vaccinate or not, as well.

  32. Th1Th2 says:

    Dr. Benway,

    “Th1Th2, my entire medical school got the Hep B series at about the same time. As far as I know, not a single person became sick.

    Exposure to an antigen does not equal infection with a virus.”

    Unfortunately for you, it does. You had been exposed and had developed an acute and asymptomatic case of Hepatitis B infection (vaccine-induced HbsAg) that eventually resolved.

    Exposure to HbsAg is equivalent to HBV exposure. HBV exposure doe not always lead to infection, it depends on the viral and antigen load. Like I said, HbsAg is the virulent factor for HBV.

    “Available data show that vaccine-induced hepatitis B antibody levels do decline with time. Nevertheless, immune memory remains intact for at least 15 years following immunization, and both adults and children with declining antibody levels are still protected against significant hepatitis B virus (HBV) infection (e.g., clinical disease, HBsAg antigenemia, or significant elevation of liver enzymes). Exposure to HBV results in an anamnestic anti-HBs response that prevents clinically significant HBV infection. Chronic HBV infection has only rarely been documented among vaccine responders.”
    http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd-vac%5Chepb%5Cfaqs-nipinfo-hepb.htm

    HBsAg antigenemia and significant elevation of liver enzymes can occur after vaccination and still considered a significant “syndrome” of Hepatitis B infection in addition to clinical disease.

    “Hepatitis B vaccine induced HBsAg positivity”
    http://www.hepatitisbannual.org/article.asp?issn=0972-9747;year=2007;volume=4;issue=1;spage=55;epage=60;aulast=Singh

    Adverse Reactions to Hepatitis B vaccine.

    Digestive System
    Elevation of liver enzymes; constipation

    Gastrointestinal System: Abnormal liver function tests; dyspepsia.

    http://www.merck.com/product/usa/pi_circulars/r/recombivax_hb/recombivax_pi.pdf
    http://us.gsk.com/products/assets/us_engerixb.pdf

    “I find your difficulty distinguishing part of a virus from the whole virus strange. It’s as though you’d mistake my hat for me.”

    Isn’t that exactly how vaccine apologists explain the idea behind vaccination, to trick the immune system as it was the “real” disease? HbsAg is not just a lipoprotein, it is the viral marker of Hepatitis B. Just like you, being the owner of the hat.

Comments are closed.