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631 thoughts on “Quackery Then and Now

  1. WLU…I’m as honest as I can be. I’ve only gotten good things from taking vitamins and other home remedies. However, I’ve included a comment and link now on the dangers of Alternatives also…thanks to Harriet, actually suggesting the link and I went myself. (nothing at all that you’ve said :) take a hint from others..you call people “moron, dangerous, idiot..etc..you kind of shut down any good,(if you have any to say)…I will continue to warn people of conventional..however, being careful of Alternatives also.

  2. PJLandis says:

    Personally, I think they should consider banning RusticHealth at this point for spamming. Not because of any view-point, although it is awfully repetitive, but because the account is linking to it’s own websites, or a small group of other websites, over and over again.

    If anyone misses Rusty I can do a spot-on impression. “Did I tell you about the time I cured my asthma?”

  3. DevoutCatalyst says:

    Au revoir. Will somebody turn off the lights.

  4. weing says:

    I agree. It does look like rusti is just trying to promote her web site. She just keeps repeating the same nonsense over and over and giving links to her site. I suspect that has been her intent all along.

  5. mousethatroared says:

    Yup, like that guy with the buteo breathing site…but he actually seemed even more spammy.

  6. WilliamLawrenceUtridge says:

    WLU…I’m as honest as I can be. I’ve only gotten good things from taking vitamins and other home remedies. However, I’ve included a comment and link now on the dangers of Alternatives also…thanks to Harriet, actually suggesting the link and I went myself. (nothing at all that you’ve said take a hint from others..you call people “moron, dangerous, idiot..etc..you kind of shut down any good,(if you have any to say)…I will continue to warn people of conventional..however, being careful of Alternatives also.

    You may think you’re honest, the problem is you’re an arrogant idiot.

    You’ve attributed good things to taking vitamins and home remedies. That doesn’t mean you “gotten” anything good. Post hoc ergo propter hoc, as I’ve linked to before.

    You still don’t understand evidence, alternative medicine, or while alternative medicine isn’t really medicine.

    You’re still an ignorant moron who gives idiotic advice that is dangerous, both actively and passively. Shut the fuck up, take down your website, and stay off this one until you understand why you’re wrong. You obviously don’t, otherwise you wouldn’t bother linking to your personal website as if it meant something. You have nothing of merit to offer. You can’t even appropriately warn people of the real dangers of medications, because you don’t understand them. All you can do is repeat nonsense you read elsewhere on the internet. We have an imperfect but reliable understanding of the actual risks of real medicines. We have a mechanism in place to study them, to publicize results, and ensure more dangerous medications are appropriately controlled. You’ve got whatever bullshit Joe Mercola or “Suzie the Paralegal from Idaho who likes to post on ehow” happens to say that you already agree with.

    Honesty isn’t enough, the problem is you are ignorant. Exacerbated by the fact that you are unwilling or unable to alleviate your ignorance by actually learning. There’s an ocean of information available on the internet, and you’re drinking cheap moonshine bought from a huckster.

    Methanol moonshine.

    Idiot.

  7. Chris says:

    Exactly. She is not willing to engage in any kind of real dialog since she refuses to learn and continues to promote nonsense that she has been called out on, repeatedly. There is no reason to go to her site, it may be a click farm.

  8. nybgrus says:

    I think I must agree. It is amazing how many posts are one liners rather than just a single paragraph.

  9. pmoran says:

    One last try. I am a little closer to admitting I was wrong about Rustic, when I said that he/she was “(arguably)” here to test out personal beliefs. Rustic has cerainly dodged answering fair questions from Harriet, myself, WLU and others.

    However, the various conversations have drifted off into peripheral matters, as they always do, and key differences have not yet been thrashed out.

    Just in case it has escaped your notice, we are at the absolute epicenter of the sad, bitter tussle between scientific medicine and CAM users i.e. the conflict between extremely compelling personal experience versus the cold, hard, error-averse stance of EBM-style science.

    I refuse to believe that the one side cannot see how an uncommon combination of events and influences can compel near-overpowering belief, while the other cannot be brought to understand that medicine has a few reasonably sound reasons for being wary of such claims and for also being selective when choosing which of literally thousands of them to follow up.

    If Rustic’s was the only such claim, or one of several, there is no question that we would eagerly investigating it further. But equivalent claims are a dime a dozen and research resources are scarce. Moreover our ability to predict which methods will prove intrinsically active has also been proved to be quite good over the years, most recently by the experience of the NCCAM, which was created to specifically investigate CAM claims that might otherwise not attract funding. It found that the (presumably most promising) ones chosen for investigation did not measure up. So we have grounds for having some confidence in our judgment on such matters.

    Yet these discussions are hard-going for many reasons. Those who say they don’t want us to keep on “feeding the troll”, or who just want to trade insults, should, in my opinion, just shut up and stop taxing further Rustic’s (and my) already over-stressed capacity for focus on the key misunderstandings. Who can wonder that this kind of discussion rarely gets to achieve anything?

    I am also not sure that different skeptical voices are saying the same thing. Rustic seems to have the clear impression that we are rejecting testimonial claims like his out of hand. I think some skeptics (not necessarily the ones here) definitely confirm that impression. — that they can simply look at an anecdote and immediately say that it is absolutely invalid, or that all anecdote can be automatically dismissed as useless.

    But our own science does not permit us to go that far. What we are entitled to say is that after taking a lot of other evidence from many different sources including a vast experience of similar claims into account, there are rather more likely explanations for what he has observed than that vitamin C has as yet undiscovered treatment effects in rare individuals (which is the most that Rustic can reasonably claim as HIS explanation).

    If there was nothing else to go on I think we would all eagerly try out vitamin C with our patients. Since it is a safe treatment we should perhaps not complain too much if some doctors did try it out, but there would need to be be similar wariness about drawing false conclusions from that experience, too. For we would expect 50% of patients to report feeling much better for it if their expectations were suitably aroused, even if the vitamin had no intrinsic activity against asthma. That would be from a combination of spontaneous happenings, incidental influences, placebo responses and reporting biases. Whether such limited “responses” would be a bad thing or not is another tricky question.

  10. PJLandis says:

    I gotta disagree with you pmoran. Not accepting individual testimony, or anecdotes, as valid evidence is kind of a canard. I think your seeing reasoning and discussion because you want to pmoran, I really challenge you to point to a serious back-and-forth exchange with Rustic in these comments. I highly doubt your going to get anything more than we’ve already seen which is a desperate plea to stop hurting people with conventional medicine and toxins.

    Just following the link directed at me, http://gethealthybehappy.yolasite.com/what-do-we-get.php, there are multiple studies cited (e.g., on how vaccines cause allergies) and lists of candida caused symptoms that range from rectal itching to diabetes. Rustic Health is clearly picking and choosing what supports a particular point of view, anecdotes when necessary and or clinical studies if they get the right results.

    Based on the Get Health Be Happy website I don’t think there is any serious attempt on the part of Rustic Health to determine cause and effect, or to give more than lip service to the idea that people can and do deceive themselves and make connections, or see patterns, where they do not exist.

    The asthma curing Vitamin C is funny, but Rustic apparently also attributes that to Organic Food; what else has organic food and vitamins done for Rustic? Better eyes, skin (no chapping), weight loss, stronger immune system, prevention of high blood pressure, diabetes, arthritis, and of course less Candidiasis fungal infection.

    I believe Rustic wishes to convince everyone that conventional medicine and science is arrogant and has completely missed all the toxins in the food, water, and air (directly or indirectly), while side-effects of conventional medicines kill off the rest (fixing one thing, breaking ten others).

    Natural is good, conventional or non-organic is bad…and everything is seen as supporting what Rustic wants to believe or it’s ignored or dismissed as ‘conventional’.

  11. We know that there is absolutely no convincing evidence that Vitamin C helps with the cold or asthma.

    (If anyone is curious, just Google “cochrane vitamin c asthma” or “cochrane vitamin c cold”)

    -

    What we all have to understand is that there are crazy people out there. There are absolute lunatics on the internet. My wife was recently Google-ing something and came across some message board full of weirdos, and came across a thread where people were discussing their personal experiences of being abducted by UFOs. One guy wrote how he repeatedly wakes up with a metallic taste in his mouth that was obviously the chest tube the aliens put down his throat at night. He gave a detailed encounter of how his brain was removed by aliens and kept in a glass jar, and how his eyes were propped open with toothpicks and he watched the aliens mess around with his body. He then stated, matter of factly, that his brain was duplicated, the original placed back in his body, and he now exists in two places at once.

    There are message boards full of people who believe that they can travel through time and space with their mind. There are people who believe that they are “energy vampires” and can suck energy out of living objects to power themselves up, and there are people who believe they are real vampires and will consume their partners menstrual blood. There are people who believe that they can read minds and look inside your body and diagnose your medical problems this way. And there are even people who believe that they can diagnose food allergies by pressing on your arms at different distances from a fulcrum.

    … and all of these psychopaths have internet access. They all have created their own little forums to hang out in, and it’s no surprise that people like rustichealthy are out there, who maintain magical thinking and simply ignore all contrary evidence. They can’t be told otherwise. It was noble to attempt to show her the reality of the situation, but she doesn’t want to hear that. We can all make the mistake of attempting to reason with someone who is simply incapable of reasoning, but I will not make the mistake of wasting massive amounts of time doing so. Sure, give them a chance or two or three, but after that, f*** them. Why waste hundreds of hours teaching someone who is mentally incapable and unwilling to be taught? It’s understand that the majority of us who frequent this website are reasonable and want to learn and teach and be correct and corrected, but not everyone is like that.

  12. * There’s even a group of people who claim to be vegans that eat placentas :)

  13. WilliamLawrenceUtridge says:

    I personally think Rustichealthy is genuinely this ignorant and stubborn. The difference between Barky and the other CAM crowd is they ended up here (were I to guess, it would be due to a referral from Craigslist). I don’t think Barky is dodging questions – I don’t think s/he has thought about the issues in any depth, and doesn’t have any awareness to look for answers (for most of us, it’s pubmed, emedicine or the NIH sites) nor the understanding for any of the answers found there. So instead s/he takes refuge in vague the vague, mealy-mouthed platitudes we see from nearly all CAM promoters, and the false dilemma of attacking real medicine as having flaws. I don’t think Barky is about testing his/her beliefs, I think s/he’s preaching them.

    I refuse to believe that the one side cannot see how an uncommon combination of events and influences can compel near-overpowering belief, while the other cannot be brought to understand that medicine has a few reasonably sound reasons for being wary of such claims and for also being selective when choosing which of literally thousands of them to follow up.

    Peter, the thing is I would say most of the regulars here do see how near-overpowering beliefs can be created, but most have either the humbleness or education to realize how easy our precious delusions become ingrained, and how hard we must work to shatter them ourselves. But our very act of self-education and critical thinking (such as reading this site, but for many of us an explicit study of the subject in post-secondary education) puts us along that path. However, CAM is mostly about lazy intellectual short cuts like conspiracy theories, cognitive biases and trite rhetoric (because if CAM works, it’d be medicine and if CAM practitioners knew this – they wouldn’t be CAM practitioners, they’d be doctors or researchers). CAM is an expression of Dunning-Kruger, the idea that medicine is easy, and therefore doctors are dumb, eggheads, uncaring or whatever.

    So I would say it’s very asymmetrical – one side does see the other side’s point of view, but also sees how wrong the other side is. Much like creationism (and Holocaust denial, racism, climate change denial, 9/11 truthers, birthers and the like), there is no real debate among scientists, but horribly flawed popular awareness has forced a scientific non-issue to become a political reality.

    Yet these discussions are hard-going for many reasons. Those who say they don’t want us to keep on “feeding the troll”, or who just want to trade insults, should, in my opinion, just shut up and stop taxing further Rustic’s (and my) already over-stressed capacity for focus on the key misunderstandings. Who can wonder that this kind of discussion rarely gets to achieve anything?

    My goal is to get Barky blocked or driven off this board. They contribute literally nothing. It’s not like nwtk2007′s defences of chiropractic (which have some merit, even as discussions get lost in a morass of rhetoric – notice that while I may disagree with nwtk2007′s comments, I don’t use invective because there’s still substance there worth digging at) or Pete’s defence of…meh, whatever he’s defending. There’s genuine merit in some discussion there, and valid points on both sides.

    There’s no merit in any damned thing Barky has said, this has been pointed out many times, yet still they bark the same sad, tired, trite, worthless talking points with no understanding of what constitutes an argument, a valid source or why science is superior to every other method of understanding when discussing reality. There is no need to “respect their point of view”, any more than I would respect my cat’s point of view on the effects of the precession of the equinoxes on the Julian (Gregorian?) calendar. They have nothing to add, and they should leave. Immediately. Had Barky started the conversation by noting that vitamin C appears to have improved their allergies and hypothesized a mechanism, accepting both corroborating and disconfirming observations, the conversation would have been civil (and doubtless shorter, ending in the acknowledgement that it’s possible but there is no real evidence – where most skeptical conversations end). Barky didn’t, Barky insisted on barking and barking and barking about how vitamin C definitely cured their asthma, how toxins are responsible for all disease and how chemicals are pure evil (but vitamins are good).

    There is no conversation with the already-convinced, particularly on the internet, and doubly-particularly when one party doesn’t understand hierarchies of evidence, citations and journals.

    By all means, in your practice, use unlikely but harmless treatments in addition to the best science has to offer, but in abstract discussions, that experience is invalid.

  14. nybgrus says:

    @pmoran:

    I refuse to believe that the one side cannot see how an uncommon combination of events and influences can compel near-overpowering belief, while the other cannot be brought to understand that medicine has a few reasonably sound reasons for being wary of such claims and for also being selective when choosing which of literally thousands of them to follow up.

    It is interesting that you should say this. There is a book called The Republican Brain which is related to the point I would like to make.

    We on this side of the equation very fully realize how events and influences compel near-overpowering belief. I can assure you of that. I certainly do. I have studied it, on my own time, from a variety of angles – mostly religion but also CAM specifically. I know that Drs. Hall, Gorski, and Novella absolutely and most certainly are also keenly aware.

    The issue is that the nature of the other side of the equation renders it incapable of of understanding our side of things. An article on the book mentioned above discusses some of the blowback received and explains the findings (and why I believe the book is relevant to our conversation). From the article (written by the author of the book):

    Splitting the difference between the political left and the political right, and employing “on the one hand, on the other hand” treatments that presume we’re all equally biased, all equally self-interested…just in different directions.

    The trouble is, I’ve presented a substantial body of scientific evidence suggesting that this simply isn’t the case.

    In other words, there aren’t two sides equally trying to get at the same ultimate conclusion (in the book’s case scientific understanding from a liberal vs conservative point of view, in our case effective medical treatments from an SBM vs CAM perspective).

    More specifically, the science I’ve presented suggests that the political right and left are quite different animals; that they perceive the world differently and handle evidence differently; and most importantly, that the polarization and the denial of science in modern American politics are fundamentally the fault of the authoritarian right

    I am aware that he is speaking of specifically the “conservative (Republican) brain” here. However, I see this as completely analagous to the issue we are having with CAM. There is a fundamental difference in how a CAM friendly (to put it mildly) person like Rustic sees the evidence as well as the end goal. We simply do not align. The further point is that we must be wary of the fallacy of the golden mean.

    In sum, I am saying that there really is no hope of trying to get someone like Rustic to see the light – especially not on the internet. As Sam Harris said “What evidence can you show someone who doesn’t value evidence? What reason and logic can you present to someone who doesn’t value reason and logic?” It was personal experience and anecdote that allowed Rustic to get to where she is. The only thing that could liberate her is the same.

    Trying to reach that sort of person on the internet is really quite fruitless – regardless of the type of rhetoric that you utilize. That is the only point I have been trying to make. And the reason is that there is that fundamental difference in their perception of the world, their utilization of evidence (and what counts as evidence), and even their actual goals. Those that we can hope to reach are the ones who are not so fundamentally different but still utilize CAM for other reasons (they simply didn’t know better and were told by friends or were mislead by what they thought was a legitimate authority on the matter like Dr. Oz, for example). But adopting a spineless and weak stance will fail to reach those people as well.

    For we would expect 50% of patients to report feeling much better for it if their expectations were suitably aroused, even if the vitamin had no intrinsic activity against asthma. Whether such limited “responses” would be a bad thing or not is another tricky question.

    Not really. Making someone believe their asthma is less severe, whilst still having small airway inflammation is a bad thing. Asthma can kill and ignoring your symptoms (even if it is because you genuinely don’t feel them because of real placebo effects of the kind Benedetti researches) can lead to hospitalization and/or death. You should know this quite well Peter.

    And this is what I mean about the kind of rhetoric we need to employ. Your waffling language here might help Rustic to trust you more in general and perhaps eventually win her over to our side of thought. I think you are beginning to see how incredibly unlikely that is. In the meantime, those that are genuinely reachable over in the middle of the road will have people like Rustic and the woo-meisters Oz et al. over there telling them that vitamin C is good for asthma. They go out to find some further information and come to this, the bastion of hard hitting skepticism and find a respectable scientific author like Dr. Gorski say something like what you just did. And they leaving thinking, “Hmmm… seems like this may be BS but even there they are saying whether what I am doing is good or bad is a “tricky question.” Sounds like I’ll keep going with it!” That is quite dangerous – besides potentially losing someone to woo, we may lose someone’s life in the process.

    So you see, Peter, that my thesis is the people you wish to reach with a less “strident” rhetoric will never be reached and the people that could be reached and directly helped will be actively disserved with that less “strident” rhetoric you are trying to convince us to use. (Please note I am not referring to the distinctly rude and strident rhetoric of WLU towards Rustic – I am talking about the actual articles posted up here by the authors as well as my own and other comments that fit a similar description)

  15. I have a suggestion also. Why not try out Vitamin C for yourself. I understand obviously, if you don’t have a respiratory problem, and you take it everyday..you will most likely say..”I don’t see any difference”. No you won’t see a difference. But, if you suffer respiratory, (as I do), since a child, and you’ve then graduated to asthma and steroids, ..then, you may see a difference. Honestly, I don’t know since there are other variables possible…but, it does matter the dose..I can only say what I take..is 1000 mg a day..everyday. If I come down with a cold symptom..I take another..and almost always it nips it in the bud. The only deviation from this so far was the 1 Hour Cold incident I had..it came on very fast..(I heard that something like that coming on fast would be a flu..however, I’ll give it the benefit of the doubt, it was “just a cold”) and details of it are on my site., I won’t go into again. The other thing I’d like to add is, Vit. C is not the only vitamin that’s needed. It wasn’t until I added others..omega 3s, Vit. D..etc..that I had even better results, fewer incidents of cold symptoms. And, again, even better than that results since going organic. My conclusion from that is, since taking in less toxins (in non-organic food) my body is now able to fight off other things better.

    And, when I say “chap hands”..I mean..nothing helped them..they swelled, bled, and itched..every winter..the first sign of cold weather. A woman looked at my hands on a bus, (I’m female btw:) took out her hand cream to put on herself…(as if I didn’t do that). Now, I don’t even have a hand cream in the house..and no chapped hands, ever! I can’t say what exactly worked on my son…since he went organic, and started taking bee pollen granules, and other vitamins including Vit. C at the same time…and now, after years of allergies, all have stopped for him. So, I believe they all work together. The problem is looking sometimes for just “one magic pill”…or remedy. Our body needs all different vitamins and nutrients to thwart off attacks and ailments at the same time. That’s my “theory” then. I won’t go again into my thinking on antibiotics, etc. Obviously, if none of my “placebos”:) worked..I would take them. :)

  16. WLU..sorry, I don’t read your posts through…but, perhaps there are nutrients for ornery, insulting people too. I believe Vit. C reduces stress also, but, that will stress you out just hearing it :) I suppose.

  17. PJLandis says:

    See, zero communication. Follow the link in my last post and you’ll see that Rusty is mostly repeating what’s written on the website but judiciously avoiding the more extreme, I would perhaps say insane, ideas.

    ” I don’t know since there are other variables possible”

    Follow that line of thought Rustic Healthy…

  18. DavidRLogan says:

    Someone probably mentioned this…but if my memory serves I think Vitamin C (at least, supplemental) becomes a prooxidant fairly easily (maybe because it increases iron absorption). That’s a trolling statement, but worth considering I think.

    @NYBGRUS: Nice Sam Harris quote! Agree 100%

  19. WilliamLawrenceUtridge says:

    WLU..sorry, I don’t read your posts through…but, perhaps there are nutrients for ornery, insulting people too. I believe Vit. C reduces stress also, but, that will stress you out just hearing it I suppose.

    I the long sentences must be hard when you’re used to thinking solely in jingoism. I’ll try to keep it short.

    Why not try out Vitamin C for yourself.

    - opportunity cost
    - it proves nothing

    Why don’t you stop your vitamin C and see if your symptoms change?

    Your claim that viral infections go away in a couple hours proves you’re still an ignorant moron.

    Omega 3 fatty acids are not vitamins.

    Organic foods would contain more endogenous toxins.

    “Thwart off” isn’t an idiom. You’re mixing “thwart” with “ward off”. Idiot.

    Obviously, if none of my “placebos”:) worked..I would take them.

    That’s the most honest thing you’ve ever said here.

  20. I do PJ, and I state it..we’re all different, so I wouldn’t “know” what exactly works for me, works for you. What ailment you have may mean a more concentrate of another vitamin/nutrient. And, no I’m not a doctor who has one’s records either. What I do know is, absolutely…we all need natural nutrients. That’s something conventional meds seem to either be totally ignorant or in denial of. Even though I know you all know about them. Most seem to believe we all get enough in our food though. Which if that were the case, not too many illnesses would be around. And we all can use less toxins (things that are toxic to us). That’s the purpose of my site. And, they (toxins) do come in non-organic food, and giving more (toxins) in the form of more medications is only exasperating many things as well.. as in, antibiotic poisoning.. candidiasis. It’s not really important if we label it candidas or something else..I’m not sure why it would be…what’s important is to know that they’re caused by toxins that do not belong in our body to begin with. I’ve given my own experience, because, that’s all I can really go by and convey. I’m only hoping it helps some others too. Actually, it has. I’d like to to help conventional mds maybe look at things differently too. That’s my reason here. And, btw, I suggested ACV for someone’s hemorrhoids, and it worked for her. If I were an m.d. I’d be interested in all kinds of things that may help heal people in less toxic/dangerous manner.

  21. Can you imagine if someone actually diagnosed a cold after 1 hour vague symptoms? That’s so funny, but yet so sad because @rustic has no idea what a blithering idiot she is.

  22. Chris says:

    Rusti:

    I have a suggestion also.

    Seriously, why would we care about your suggestion? You have been told multiple times why it is not valid, yet you refuse to open your mind to new information. So you just keep repeating yourself with more ellipses.

    Please find a new hobby.

  23. Just for instance..you all agree..if someone has a drinking problem, it affects the liver..toxin overload..isn’t that right? So, what would be the main prescription for that, at least to begin with? Wouldn’t it be “Stop Drinking”…okay then..that’s my idea.

  24. pmoran..I answered Harriet..my posts are delayed so it goes in later, and, WLU is too obnoxious to answer.
    What did I not answer that was your question?

  25. pmoran says:

    Rustic, I concede that I was wrong about you, — if you have in fact been trying to follow this “discussion” at all. You are making no attempt to understand the weaknesses in your own assertions and the reasons why mainstream medical science seems reluctant to take your word on certain matters.

    I am not as sure as others that there no hope for you. Even religious zealots almost always admit to being plagued by doubt in their private writings. I think also many CAM users have a conditional “for these purposes only” kind of belief, or a complex mix of good sense and make-believe. The human mind can hold contrary leanings.

    Your beliefs probably look entirely internally consistent to you, but understand that they do hang upon some shaky premises. There is not only your blind faith in the meaning of your own personal experiences (they mean something, the dispute concerns what?). They also require the assumption that a whole profession, comprising a lot of the smartest people on the planet, is too stupid to see your “truths”. (I don’t pretend to be one of those but I am obsessive about the truth of things, and I have thoroughly studied many aspects of CAM).

    Anyway, best of luck. At least you seem to have enough sense to probably use mainstream diagnosis and methods if you are seriously ill.

  26. PJLandis says:

    pmoran, It seems like you’re a little too focused on directly affecting the beliefs and ideas of specific people. Perfectly sane people come to conclusions that don’t make sense and then either consciously or unconsciously ignore or rationalize away contradictory evidence. It sounds like your interested in personally converting people which I think is kind of foolish

    I think your website is good because it lays out reasoning and evidence, and let’s it speak for itself if anyone is willing to listen. I’m convinced people are least likely to change their opinions or views in response to a direct debate or challenge, even if it might sink in over time and sow seeds of doubt. But in the case of Rustic, it’s not clear that she has even read this website much less cognized the difference between her views and those of Science-Based Medicine so what is gained in having endless commentary from someone who never reacts with anything but cut and paste responses from their own website.

    Again, I don’t support banning based on viewpoint, while I think her ideas are confusing and simplistic, not to mention wrong, the real issue is there isn’t any conversation or debate occurring. People respond with questions and reasoning, while she repeats stuff almost verbatim from her website (follow the link, a stranger could cut and paste paragraphs at random and it wouldn’t be very different than Rustic’s commenting). We could delete her every comment and replace it with a link to her website and nothing would be lost.

    I think she should be banned because her comments are more akin to soapbox shouting (i.e., spamming) than any cognizable attempt to interact with others or their ideas.

    Also…”Even religious zealots almost always admit to being plagued by doubt in their private writings.” That’s a whopper; think confirmation bias, because while I’m always heartened to hear that someone like Mother Teresa had doubts, it and other select cases are just as likely to be outliers as representative of the group.

  27. nybgrus says:

    Indeed. According to a recent Pew survey about 63% of people in the US state they “completely agree” with the statement “I never doubt the existence of God.” I think your notions about what zealots in general tend to believe and with what conviction is off the mark.

  28. @nybgrus

    According to a recent Pew survey about 63% of people in the US state they “completely agree” with the statement “I never doubt the existence of God.”

    I don’t doubt that a God exists. I know one doesn’t.

    ;)

    (To anyone who feels compelled to reply about proving a negative, or whatever other stupid crap, I know all about “strong” and “weak” atheism, making the claim that a God doesn’t exist, etc. Just save your lame, freshman argument.)

    While I do not believe in a god, especially in the form of an old man in the sky that gives a crap about humans, sometimes when I let my mind wonder, I think about the vastness of our planet, and then how our planet is just 1 of 8 (or 9) that moves in a incredibly huge orbit around the sun, and just the vast amount of space between us and the sun, and then between us and our former planet Pluto, and then the mind-boggling huge amount of space between us and our closet star (besides the sun), and then the incredible amount of space and mass and everything that there is in our galaxy, and then the local and super clusters, and just the practically infinite number of stars, and the ridiculous amount of space that is out there, and that it’s all moving away from the others, and how if you go backwards it has to all come from the same spot, and ultimately I come to the question where did everything come from for the big bang?

    And at the point I get overwhelmed with a feeling of uncomfortability because the mass had to come from somewhere. Even it it “always existed”, it still had to come from somewhere. I believe Hawking wrote in one of his books that whatever happened before the big bang is irrelevant because it has no influence on us whatsoever. But still… I guess the hardest part is to accept the fact that we are just humans, and we evolved to be decent at spotting large predators coming at us and to be reasonably good at problem solving and pattern recognition.

    Damn it’s just mind blowing.

  29. Harriet Hall says:

    “Even religious zealots almost always admit to being plagued by doubt”

    This is off-topic, but Michael Shermer pointed out that at least some religious believers come to doubt or even lose their faith at some point in their lives; so if religion is their only basis of morality, we should fear immoral behavior from them at that point. The fact that they don’t immediately start lying, killing and acting immorally underlines the fact that religion is not the reason for morality, but is used as an excuse or explanation of something that is innate.

  30. Harriet Hall says:

    @SkepticalHealth,

    Physicists don’t think the mass came from somewhere. They think it came from nowhere, because “nothing” is unstable. A crude paraphrase of my understanding of I have read: in the quantum void particles can pop in and out of existence, and not popping in is less probable than popping in.

    But the same question arises in religion and in physics: where did God come from and where did the quantum nothingness come from?

    Our human minds can only deal with situations on a human scale where things have to start somewhere. We are asking the wrong questions, or framing them in unanswerable form.

  31. Quite honestly, this is what I believe now, regarding conventional meds, from all of this. If I simply continued, (or returned) to taking asthma meds, steroids, etc.., because that’s what ‘science’ (pharmas) has determined the only way to remedy it, and continued getting sick with colds, which exasperated my asthma, year after year, and if I simply took all the new and artificial toxic filled drugs that are put out, otc or not, that ‘science’ (pharmas) has determined one should use for colds, etc, then, I’d be “healthy” and quite “normal” to conventional meds. eyes and I’d be no problem. Oh, you’d feel “bad” for me, and sympathetic, of course if you knew how sick I was.

    I don’t happen to consider one being on constant medications, of any kind as “healthy”. I’m sorry if I don’t fit in your definition. I am glad I got out. Others stay with it, for some reason perhaps they’re simply satisfied and accepting and quite honestly ‘lazy’…I thought it over and know, I could be lazy..except I hate being sick even more. I still wish I could simply go to the doctor and he’d tell me what vitamin/nutrient or something else natural I may need..instead of looking for them myself…and not have to think for myself and my own health, and trusting that the doctor, whoever that may be, knows what is best for me and all I have to do is “take my medicine”. (Chris, I’m not talking about terrible conditions as your son, though again, I can think of ways to help your son naturally though a little, consider omega 3s, and yes..an organic non-toxic diet..a few other vitamins to help him). I’m talking about most often ailments that can be remedied like asthma, diabetes, hbp, allergies, etc. Things I know first hand, can be remedied in natural non medicinal ways. What you all think I should “learn” is and stop being so head strong stubborn about..to give up my ‘evil’ natural ways, stop telling others how they can do the same, and go back to steroids, etc. I know you won’t say that..or admit that, but it would make things easier here wouldn’t it.

    I was hoping mds would atleast consider less dangerous drugs, and consider that maybe many others aren’t all lunatics because they found other natural ways to be healthy. I was hoping for some compromise. Harriet, thanks for that site, like I said, I put it on my site also, the dangers of alternatives, sad some of it. There are dangers in conventional meds too..for some reason con meds are just as stubborn, and head strong, not to admit too, and maybe one day too..it will “sink in”.

  32. Sorry, just one more thing :) Regarding cancer. Wouldn’t it behoove the medical community to find out what causes cancers to begin with and to stop them. And, wouldn’t carcinogens in pesticides, and other chemicals, be the thing to stop taking in, and to stop producing altogether, as in food production as well. One of the problems I have with both, alternatives and conventional is, both try to administer to the illness, without eliminating what is causing the illness/cancer to begin with. Just a final thought and suggestion.

  33. @Dr. Hall

    We are asking the wrong questions, or framing them in unanswerable form.

    Yeah, I like to think of it that way too. It’s a sobering concept that we may be failing to understand our existence because we are (simply) asking the wrong questions.

  34. nybgrus says:

    Indeed Dr. Hall you are correct. Lawrence Krauss has an excellent lecture and book on the topic titled, appropriately, “a universe from nothing.”

    In my reading it has to do with the inherent quantum instability of “nothing” thus the creation of virtual particles. The basic assumption is that these particles always create and annhilate in the exact same quantities. But C-P asymmetry has been shown to exist – in other words, there is something on the order of .00001 difference in particle vs anti-particle creation. That is enough to explain the matter we see in the universe. It has also been (somewhat) recently verified that the total energy of the universe is equal to… zero. Thus, in total, there really is nothing. But because of quantum instability that overall nothing becomes bumpy and lumps into pockets of matter and anti-matter.

    So the issue, I believe, is not so much that we are asking the wrong questions. Eventually we will become smart enough to ask the right ones. I think the issue is that the answers will be in a form that is simply unintelligible to us as humans in a visceral sense. In the same way we cannot truly understand how a bat “sees” with sound – we can sort of imagine it. We can model it mathematically. We can create movie representations of it… but no matter what we cannot actually experience what it is like to navigate and use sound like a bat. I believe it will be the same thing when it comes to the ultimate answers to the universe.

    The answer, of course, is 42.

    And Skeptical… yes, nice one indeed. I also have no doubt as to the existence of god. Of course, the context of the poll was in the positive. ;-)

  35. PJLandis says:

    Atheists!!!…secular ethics!!! (humanism?)…Next thing you’ll all be supporting the homosexual agenda!

  36. weing says:

    So many atheists. Am I the only ignostic here?

  37. nybgrus says:

    Did you hear Dawkins is an agnostic? Scandalous!

  38. weing says:

    I didn’t know that about Dawkins. But I am an ignostic.

  39. @nybg, re: Dawkins. Where did you read that? I emailed with him many times back in the early 2000s, and we talked about that point because I wrote an article comparing Mayr’s “Rock of Ages” to a point that Dawkins had made, and I remember something to the effect that he said he is a “strong athiest” (there is no god), but for the purpose of debate he says its more correct to say you are a “weak athiest” (I’ve examined all the evidence and it has filled to convince me of the existence of a god) which is basically an agnostic. I think that’s from one of his books too, is it not? I’m probably remembering this all wrong.

  40. PJLandis says:

    On Dawkins’ belief in god…http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spectrum_of_theistic_probability

  41. Harriet Hall says:

    Re spectrum of belief:

    There is strong evidence against the falsifiable claim that there is a personal God who answers prayers and intervenes in human affairs. There is no way to obtain evidence for or against the Deist concept of a God who created the Universe and then left it alone.

  42. pmoran says:

    I gotta disagree with you pmoran. Not accepting individual testimony, or anecdotes, as valid evidence is kind of a canard.

    I am not sure what you mean, and it is important that we get this right when talking about testimonial to susceptible individuals. They truly cannot understand how we can seem to be rejecting testimonials out of hand even in the absence of the level of evidence from controlled clinical studies that we insist upon when addressing other medical questions.

  43. David Gorski says:

    Regarding cancer. Wouldn’t it behoove the medical community to find out what causes cancers to begin with and to stop them.

    I spit out my coffee in disbelief when I read this. Find out what causes cancer to begin with? Do you have any idea how much research effort and dollars have gone into just this question over the last 100 years? Do you have any idea how much research effort and dollars go into this question every year? Finding out what causes cancer and how to prevent it is a major research focus. My very own cancer institute has a really high quality research program in population studies one whose main purposes is to identify risk factors for cancer and find ways to mitigate them.

    Seriously, if you think that the medical community isn’t trying to find this out, you have no idea what you are talking about. No idea at all.

  44. BillyJoe says:

    Harriet Hall: “There is no way to obtain evidence for or against the Deist concept of a God who created the Universe and then left it alone”.

    Maybe not, but two things:
    If physicists can demonstrate how the universe could have arisen naturally from nothing, there’s no need for a deist god.
    What motivation is there for believing in a deist god if he won’t help you in this life and he isn’t promising an afterlife.

  45. lol sorry about that David Gorsky. I don’t know exactly what the labs are looking for, but, isn’t it kind of simple, carcinogens ..from all chemicals and unnatural substances (whatever they may be) that put our body to task, and are the cause of many illnesses including cancer. Is it possible to be looking for something, and making something more complex and difficult than it has to be? We’re not made for unnatural substances and chemicals, as difficult as that seems to most in the medical profession it seems. And, when we stop taking them in, we have a less chance of getting ill, and contracting even cancer. Isn’t that the cause of colon cancer? a toxic colon..remains of what the body can’t itself process healthily, which are chemicals and unnatural substances. No, I don’t know all the medical terms, and ways. Anyway, there is a site..DoctorYourself.com , Dr. Andrew Saul..that I just came across, maybe look into what he has to say. Still, my belief is, to stop taking in the foods (laden with pesticides, carcinogens, hormones, antibiotics) to begin with, would help solve more than half of the problem of cancer and other ailments.

  46. nybgrus says:

    @skeptical:

    It was tongue in cheek regarding the actual recent “scandal” of Dawkins “admitting” to the Archbishop of Canterbury that he was an agnostic. Of course, it was in the exact sense you describe – that no reasonable person can be absolutely 100.0% certain, and that technically speaking his 99.99% certainty means he must be described as an agnostic. And he wrote the exact same thing in The God Delusion as well, which is why it was so funny that the theistic community went all ablaze with it saying things like “World’s most famous atheist admits he is agnostic! Maybe that means there is room for god!”

  47. And, yes I do have an idea how much money goes into it. Billions. That also kind of gives me an idea why no answer has come up. If they came to the simple answer, no more $ will need to be poured into it.

  48. nybgrus says:

    as BJ said – a deistic god cannot be disproven, the same as Russel’s teapot. However, there will come a point (and IMO we are very nearly there is not already) that we can demonstrate how little need there is for any god regardless of how involved it is, and then my old buddy Occam will take care of the rest.

    That, and it seems pointless to devote my life thinking and living for something that doesn’t care or think one whit about me. I may as well worship a small exo plant in the Baby Boom Galaxy (haha, I just looked for a weird name).

  49. mousethatroared says:

    Personally, I guess I must be in the 37%. physics has always been beyond me, so “proof” doesn’t really come into it.

    But sometimes I really WANT to believe in a god. Because if there was a god, there would be some chance that I could slap him up side the head and say “Lupus? Cancer? Mental Illness? A species in your image that chooses to engage in things like genocide and ignores mass starvation? Give me a break. What the fuck are you thinking?

    Then I realize it’s probably more healthy for me to believe in randomly generated events.

    Of course, there is more than a smidgen of wishful thinking there (for me not for everyone else), which I try not to over indulge in…so I’m agnostic.

  50. mousethatroared says:

    Oh, my comment is awaiting moderation. I’ve always wondered what the filter/moderation policy was for swear words. Now I know.

  51. mouse..I think you’re blaming God for what man has caused/created. Probably most caused/created by unnatural chemicals and substances that don’t belong in or around us. Just another thought.

  52. and, if man wasn’t created with a free will, then we wouldn’t be human…we’d be automated something or other.

  53. weing says:

    “No, I don’t know all the medical terms, and ways. Anyway, there is a site..DoctorYourself.com , Dr. Andrew Saul..that I just came across, maybe look into what he has to say. ”

    Wow. Thanks rusti. Your help and finding out the cause and cure for cancer is invaluable. I feel like such an idiot. How could we have missed your insights?

  54. WilliamLawrenceUtridge says:

    WLU is too obnoxious to answer

    It’s a lot easier to ignore questions you can’t answer than it is to educate yourself.

    Wouldn’t it be “Stop Drinking

    Brilliant. Genius. You should be a doctor, because most doctors recommend drinking until the liver fails, then just getting an organ transplant. You’re the Gallileo of medicine.

    which exasperated my asthma, year after year

    You mean “exacerbate”. Your stupidity exasperates the educated.

    Others stay with it, for some reason perhaps they’re simply satisfied and accepting and quite honestly ‘lazy’…I thought it over and know, I could be lazy..except I hate being sick even more.

    Say, when you hear about someone being raped, do you ask what they were wearing at the time?

    I still wish I could simply go to the doctor and he’d tell me what vitamin/nutrient or something else natural I may need..instead of looking for them myself…and not have to think for myself

    Unless you’ve got a deficiency, you don’t need any. Vitamins and nutrients are not medicines. But keep thinking for yourself, particularly if you ever get something like cancer.

    (Chris, I’m not talking about terrible conditions as your son, though again, I can think of ways to help your son naturally though a little, consider omega 3s, and yes..an organic non-toxic diet..a few other vitamins to help him).

    If I were Chris, your condescending and flat-out wrong advice would make me want to punch you in the face. Please, illuminate us on how vitamins and nutrients will help repair a congenital defect?

    You’ve gone from being an ignorant idiot to a plain-old victim-blaming asshole.

    Sorry, just one more thing Regarding cancer. Wouldn’t it behoove the medical community to find out what causes cancers to begin with and to stop them

    HOLY SHIT, WHY DIDN’T WE THINK OF THAT?!?!?!?!?!? FUCK A DUCK, THAT’S A GREAT IDEA!!!

    Here’s an idea, instead of older people developing cancer because of transcription errors during cell division, why don’t they stop getting old! BRILLIANT! I’VE CURED CANCER BECAUSE IT IS SOOOOOO EASY!!!!!

    @Dr. Gorski:

    Seriously, if you think that the medical community isn’t trying to find this out, you have no idea what you are talking about. No idea at all

    I knew that back in May. May I suggest banning the idiot troll?

  55. weing: : ) welcome

  56. Chris says:

    Rusti:

    I don’t happen to consider one being on constant medications, of any kind as “healthy”.

    So everyone with type 1 diabetes should just stop taking insulin? My kid with the genetic heart condition should just stop taking beta-blockers? My step-mother’s relatives who have the genetic form of hypertension should just stop taking the diuretic blood pressure meds? Just because you don’t think they are healthy? Is it because of the bad roll of the genetic dice it is your learned “opinion” that they die a long lingering painful death?

    Seriously, why should we care about what you think since you will not learn and keep repeating nonsense?

    lol sorry about that David Gorsky.

    And you don’t even have the courtesy to spell Dr. Gorski’s name like it is done on this page several times.

    Justify yourself. Open up your mind to reality and learning about it. Or just go find another hobby.

  57. WLU: If I were Chris, your condescending and flat-out wrong advice would make me want to punch you in the face. Please, illuminate us on how vitamins and nutrients will help repair a congenital defect?

    I wasn’t meaning it would cure his congenital heart problem, OBVIOUSLY..Idiot..I was thinking it would help strengthen him/his body, to be better to deal with it..get it? get it now? idiot?

  58. WLU: If I were Chris, your condescending and flat-out wrong advice would make me want to punch you in the face. Please, illuminate us on how vitamins and nutrients will help repair a congenital defect?

    I wasn’t meaning it would cure his congenital heart problem, OBVIOUSLY..Idiot..I was thinking it would help strengthen him/his body, to be better to deal with it..get it? get it now? idiot?

    And, when I used the analogy of telling someone who has liver problem from drinking to Stop Drinking, I meant it as an idea, that since CANCER is caused by CARCINOGENS, then we should STOP putting them in our FOODS as in Non Organic foods with Pesticides (CARCINOGENS)..and ENVIRONMENT…get it now?

  59. Chris..I was not referring to someone with congenital heart, or other birth problems, however, there are natural helps even with Diabetes 1 actually. In any case, I hope you’ll not take everything I’m saying to apply to drastic cases,, I’m sorry about your son… that’s not what I’m referring to.

  60. WLU..I’m beginning to think you’re one of the ‘s in CL who stalks me with idiot posts too.

  61. Sorry for the misspell David Gorski :)

  62. And, my rule of thumb is..if you’re sick enough to take medications (other than drastic conditions please) as in things like Diabetes 2, hbp, allergies, asthma, arthritis, and a lot of other things..you’re sick enough to need Vitamins ..you’re not getting enough. And, you’re not getting the right food.. as in organic without toxins food.

  63. Vitamins and other nutrients

  64. Could the moderator put a gag order on WLU please.

  65. weing says:

    @rusti,

    We have wasted so many years studying to become doctors. We could have just gone to your website and received the simple wisdom you offer and put it into practice. We could just look into those areas for the causes of cancer and find the cures. I am confident the health of all our patients would be improved immeasurably just by following your advice. The government might go bankrupt as it would have to dish out social security money for many more years from the huge increase in longevity.

    @pmoran
    You still have a lot to learn from rusti. When you do, you will realize that we are just that bunch of uneducated, aimlessly searching dim-wits that rusti has chosen to lead to the light.

  66. @rustic, can you please consolidate your stupidity to a single post? There’s no need to make 5+ posts. It’s just more garbage that we have to scroll through. By the way, it’s rather hilarious to see you call WLU an idiot. The intellectual gap between you and WLU is about as big as the Grand Canyon. You’re a f-ing idiot, and I mean that with every definition of the word.

  67. weing says:

    What’s Poe’s law?

  68. pmoran says:

    >i>Anyway, there is a site..DoctorYourself.com , Dr. Andrew Saul..that I just came across, maybe look into what he has to say.

    Rustic, Saul’s orthomolecular treatment of cancer has had its day. Pauling, Hoffer and its other original proponents never had any really good evidence for it, a number of conventional studies have failed to show any benefit for it, and despite it being THE main approach to cancer within CAM over at least two decades, just try and find any <b<decent body of testimonial evidence for it. In consequence it is now rare to even find CAM sites or forums putting it among the their top recommendations.

    Some of us have been examining CAM cancer claims seriously for decades and it is quite quaint to have someone who to all appearances has only just now airily stumbled into anything to do with medicine trying to educate us about it.

    Do you not also know that there is a standing arrangement for anyone who thinks they have an effective cancer cure or other good idea to bring their evidence to the NCCAM? It has the funds, and the eagerness to investigate anything that sounds promising from within CAM. It has already investigated at least one very unlikely cancer treatment and is now looking at intravenous vitamin C.

    We cannot be blamed if those that you like to quote at us do not have the courage if their convictions, or are too lazy to get a submission together. I know from very lengthy dealings with them that they suspect themselves that their methods don’t have any significant effect upon established cancer. They don’t want to take the risk of demonstrating that, as any proper invetigation is likely to do.

    You can tell them we said so, too.

  69. Chris says:

    I can’t even understand what she is ranting about. All I notice is that she is not explaining why we should care about what she says. She has in no way figured out that a conversation must include give and take, that instead of spamming this thread that she should also be reading and learning.

    I specifically said Type 1 Diabetes, yet she says “Diabetes 2.”

    I am beginning to wonder if it was some inane person like her that my son was reading online, and then decided to stop being compliant with his medications (he has some learning disabilities). The outcome of that was at least three 911 calls with the fire department responding to a cardiac emergency (tachycardia) over a nine month period (1st they left when he stabilized, 2nd time he stabilized in the emergency dept, 3rd time he spent two days in the hospital). And, of course, subsequent surgery. He is much better at taking his meds.

    This is why there is SBM, and why self-taught “health advisers” should be exposed and shut down. People like Rustichealthy are as dangerous as they are delusional.

    weing:

    We have wasted so many years studying to become doctors.

    And I thank you for that. I am just a parent with a kid who is much too interesting for my taste.

  70. Chris says:

    Ah, just noticed this (the lots of little comments does not help): “there are natural helps even with Diabetes 1 actually.”

    Again, that is silly. The only thing that helps with type 1 diabetes is a starvation diet. That was the treatment early in this century, and people either died of starvation or went into diabetic shock when they tried to eat something (like one child who was so hungry he ate a pet bird’s seed). See: Breakthrough: Elizabeth Hughes, the Discovery of Insulin, and the Making of a Medical Miracle.

    Rustichealthy refuses to learn, and is just spamming her nonsense.

  71. PJLandis says:

    “I am not sure what you mean, and it is important that we get this right when talking about testimonial to susceptible individuals. They truly cannot understand how we can seem to be rejecting testimonials out of hand even in the absence of the level of evidence from controlled clinical studies that we insist upon when addressing other medical questions.

    I don’t see any real evidence that RusticHealthy is particularly concerned about the relative value of different kinds of evidence. Her testimonial, and others, have proven something to her and I doubt she would have a problem ignoring testimonial evidence that is completely contradictory to her views. I think a more accurate view would be that she thinks clinical trials, with controls and strict rules, are too reductionist while she and her friends have seen the obvious causes of human illness in the supposed toxins and non-organic foods, plus of course the dreaded conventional medicines.

    Take Vitamin C for colds, that has been studied way more than it deserved, yet I don’t see Rustic even acknowledging that fact. Furthermore, her placebo page indicates that she thinks “willing” things to happen can truly cause them to happen.

  72. PJLandis says:

    “and, if man wasn’t created with a free will, then we wouldn’t be human…we’d be automated something or other.”

    I gotta say Rusty, you do sound like an automaton reading scripts off your website.

  73. nybgrus says:

    @chris:

    And I thank you for that. I am just a parent with a kid who is much too interesting for my taste.

    The singularly most genuine internal conflict I ever experience. You are always excited to see an “interesting” case because that is where you learn the most and see the most. But being an “interesting” case is never what you actually want to be. I sometimes tell my patients they should be glad we find them somewhat boring since they do not want to be peering out of their bed and seeing a dozen interested medical students and residents peering back.

    My best wishes for your boy (IIRC?) and his condition.

  74. WilliamLawrenceUtridge says:

    I wasn’t meaning it would cure his congenital heart problem, OBVIOUSLY..Idiot..I was thinking it would help strengthen him/his body, to be better to deal with it..get it? get it now? idiot?

    So, what, Chris should just make his kid exercise and that would help a congenital heart defects? You arrogant asshole.

    Heh, and I’m the idiot, despite knowing what the words congenital, vitamin, chemical, nutrient, exasperate, exacerbate and exegetical mean. Good one Barky.

    And, when I used the analogy of telling someone who has liver problem from drinking to Stop Drinking, I meant it as an idea, that since CANCER is caused by CARCINOGENS, then we should STOP putting them in our FOODS as in Non Organic foods with Pesticides (CARCINOGENS)..and ENVIRONMENT…get it now?

    That’s a totally inapt comparison, since cirrhosis of the liver in alcoholics is caused by a controllable act. Cancer, on the other hand, is a dysfunction of cellular division caused by, primarily, aging. Maybe you should stop lecturing about cancer since you’re too ignorant to say anything useful, and too stupid to learn. Incidentally, before the advent of modern pesticides, did cancer exist? Testing to see if your grasp of history is as shoddy as your grasp of medicine, though I don’t know how that’s possible. Is time linear in your universe?

    Chris..I was not referring to someone with congenital heart, or other birth problems, however, there are natural helps even with Diabetes 1 actually. In any case, I hope you’ll not take everything I’m saying to apply to drastic cases,, I’m sorry about your son… that’s not what I’m referring to.

    Looks like I can add “natural” to that list. And “helps”.

    Pray tell, what “natural helps” can be used to treat type I diabetes? I mean aside from the obvious (refined porcine and/or human insulin applied subcutaneously times per day – which meets my definition of natural). Will cinnamon help your pancreas grow back? Because the problem with type I diabetes is your pancreas dying. There is another “natural” treatment for type I diabetes. I know what it is. I’m sure you don’t.

    “Congenital” doesn’t mean “birth problem” by the way. Maybe you should shut the fuck up.

    WLU..I’m beginning to think you’re one of the ‘s in CL who stalks me with idiot posts too.

    Nope, I’ve been posting here for years. Your error, one of many, is due to your utterly unfounded belief in your own infallibility combined other people having a modicum of critical thinking and knowledge of basic facts – like what causes cancer, what a vitamin is and the definition of “chemical”.

    And, my rule of thumb is..if you’re sick enough to take medications (other than drastic conditions please) as in things like Diabetes 2, hbp, allergies, asthma, arthritis, and a lot of other things..you’re sick enough to need Vitamins ..you’re not getting enough. And, you’re not getting the right food.. as in organic without toxins food.

    Your rule of thumb is stupid since we know who needs vitamins – people with deficiencies. Sheesh, all those posts and you still don’t know what a vitamin is. Also, high blood pressure isn’t a drastic condition? Geez, you should tell the American Medical Association that, so they can pick another disease to call the “silent killer”. And asthma isn’t deadly, except for the 1,500 people that died in Canada between 2000 and 2004 because of it. 5,000 per year in the United States. But sure, let’s just ignore them, because they deserved it. Right? They should have known better and just had vitamins instead. Do you prefer your asthma deaths as anecdotes rather than statistics? How about Anthony Shadid? He deserved it too, right? Because he should have known to eat his oranges.

    Could the moderator put a gag order on WLU please.

    If they haven’t blocked your worthless ass, I doubt they’re going to block mine when I make valid points and you just bang your head against the keyboard and pretend it’s worth reading. I realize it must be frustrating to be so consistently proven and told your wrong, but I’m surprised you’re not more used to it. The internet is extremely anonymizing, which means I don’t have to respond to the nonverbal cues normally present that would preclude me from being this rude. Thankfully, text-based communication is quite liberating when you feel no sense of guilt about pointing out how fucking stupid someone is – like you.

    I like to think the only courtesies we owe each other on the internet are cogent arguments and factual substantiation. Since you can’t provide either, I see no reason to pretend you are worth being polite to. You had your chance to be treated like a real person, like a grown-up. Instead you acted like a child stuck in object permanence, unable to engage in symbolic representation. You criticizing other people’s arguments without understanding them is far less courteous than me pointing out quite accurately that you’re an ignorant fucking idiot.

    The intellectual gap between you and WLU is about as big as the Grand Canyon.

    Rustichealthy’s intelligence is closer to the freezing void between galaxies – vast and empty. I refuse to be part of a metaphor with him/her, as that implies that we are in any way comparable.

  75. weing says:

    @ Chris,

    There is no treatment except for insulin in type I DM.

  76. nybgrus says:

    @weing:

    nuh uh! There is natural stuff too! Jeez! Why you so closed minded man? Cuz, you know insulin is not natural…. its a toxin like the other con med stuffs. Be natural and be healthy!

  77. weing says:

    @nybgrus,
    Dang it. You’re right. All those years of brain washing have taken their toll. I keep slipping out of the light shone by rusti back into those primitive modalities. I must be on my guard at all times.

  78. Chris says:

    weing, actually in the early part of the 20th century there was a specialized hospital that kept children with diabetes alive longer with a specialized starvation diet. Check out the book I linked to. The reason the name “Elizabeth Hughes” is in the title is because she was very disciplined with that diet, and stayed alive long enough to be one of the first to benefit from insulin. It is a fascinating book.

    And when insulin came out, the brave maverick doctor, Dr. Frederick M. Allen, who promoted the starvation treatment went into bankruptcy, his hospital closed and he faded into obscurity. But in 1949 he received a Banting Medal in recognition of his research, and for keeping many diabetics alive. There are pictures in the book of some of the children who were in his Physiatric Institute before and after insulin.

    So, yes, there is another treatment. I think it is clear is not one that is preferable to insulin. Quite the opposite, which makes claims that there are “natural” treatments for type 1 diabetes even more ridiculous.

    nybgrus, I remember telling my family doctor when I was pregnant that the only time I wished for nothing interesting to happen was with the birth of the baby. There in is that old saying rife with confirmation bias: be careful what you wish for. Except I got the curse: may you live in interesting times.

    (and yes, he is getting better with cardiac rehab)

  79. weing says:

    @Chris,

    Thanks for clarifying.

  80. @WLU,

    Rustichealthy’s intelligence is closer to the freezing void between galaxies – vast and empty. I refuse to be part of a metaphor with him/her, as that implies that we are in any way comparable.

    Good point!

    I really enjoy your posts – if you ever write a book, please let us know!

    @Chris,

    I had never heard of that. Very interesting!

    @Weing,

    What’s Poe’s Law?

    Basically it’s that some peoples (typically religious fundamentalists) writing or beliefs are so ridiculous that it’s hard to differentiate them from someone making fun of them. For example, rustichealthy’s beliefs and posts are so utterly idiotic that you almost have to believe that someone is purposefully trolling us.

  81. WilliamLawrenceUtridge says:

    Actually, the historical “natural” treatment for diabetes was exercise.

    And Poe’s law.

  82. Chris says:

    Thank you, WLU. If that was mentioned in the book, I forgot about it since most of the emphasis was on the diet, and I returned it to the library. I can assume getting a three year old to climb hundreds of stairs would have been difficult.

    You are welcome, SkepticalHealth. Just one of the bits and pieces of my eclectic reading habits. I just finished a biography of Ramanujan the mathematician, and am now in the middle of Kevin Clash’s memoir.

  83. weing says:

    And I’m still on Book 2 of The Game of Thrones

  84. weing: The government might go bankrupt as it would have to dish out social security money for many more years from the huge increase in longevity. :)…

    The gov would have not spent billions and billions of $$ on needless research and subsidies on carcinogenic grown food

    WLU :So, what, Chris should just make his kid exercise and that would help a congenital heart defects? You arrogant asshole. ..no..vitamins..and nutrients..maybe omega 3s..did I ever even mention “EXERCISE”?????????????????????????????…I didn’t read the rest of your BS as usual ..moderator..please gag William..he needs mental screening.

    Diabetes I ..I said helps..not cure…there are supplements ..cinnamon is one

  85. pmoran..regarding cancer ‘cure’… I don’t know all of CAM’s ideas or Dr. Saul’s …. my idea is..to stop the carcinogens/chemicals in the pesticides and growth of non-organic food/environment to begin with..so there will at least be less cancers..and other illnesses that they probably create. I know one is diabetes …

    Persistent organic pollutants (POPs) that contaminate ground and water may accumulate in the tissues of animals and be passed up the food chain, leading to human exposure. Some POPs have recently been associated with the prevalence of diabetes in a serum concentration-dependent manner [6]. The triazine herbicide, atrazine (ATZ, 2-chloro-4-ethylamine-6-isopropylamino-S​-triazine),has been extensively used in the USA since the early 1960s, a time frame that corresponds to the beginning of the present obesity epidemic
    http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0005186

  86. and obesity..interestingly…why there is an “obesity” epidemic in America..

    “The triazine herbicide, atrazine (ATZ, 2-chloro-4-ethylamine-6-isopropylamino-S​-triazine),has been extensively used in the USA since the early 1960s, a time frame that corresponds to the beginning of the present obesity epidemic”

  87. What I’m trying to address too, is to eliminate some of the problems we have to begin with. The cause of many illness …and some serious ones..like diabetes, obesity, cancers, coming from chemicals in pesticides and other things used in food production .CAFOs…Concentrated Animal Feed Operations, where animals are given hormones and antibiotics to become obese faster. No I don’t see all toxins the same..how in the world you do is kind of weird..pesticides and vitamins are two different things…aren’t they? I didn’t expect the most ridiculous comments as I’ve gotten..and, I thought you all would be interested in that anyway, where many illness comes from today. noooo..not all. Yes.. we had illness before this. Anyway, it’s been unreal:) WLU..take a pill.

  88. WilliamLawrenceUtridge says:

    Know what else corresponds to the obesity epidemic? Cheaper food, increased corn production, increase in the number of televisions, decrease in church attendance, increased cars, decreased walking, increased knowledge base in every field, air conditioning, changes in fashion, etc. etc. etc. Correlation does not imply causation, which you would know if you’d ever taken a stats class. Say, do you think pirates are responsible for climate change?

    Moron.

    pesticides and vitamins are two different things

    MY GOD SOMEBODY TELL THE MEDIA!!!!!1!!1!1!!!! THEY KEEP TELLING ME TO DRINK WEED KILLER TO MAKE ME STRONG!!!!

    Your factual claims are either completely wrong, or incredibly obvious but presented as if it were a great truth.

    I thought you all would be interested in that anyway, where many illness comes from today

    You saying so doesn’t make it so. In fact, it make it much less likely. I find it hard to believe that your idiot, ignorant self somehow tripped over this fact, that was missed by nearly everybody in the world doing actual research on the topic. I’ll note two things:

    - diseases that exist now existed in the past
    - we know what pesticides do; even if we lack exact understanding of behaviour on a molecular level, their effects are known. People study this, it’s not like someone comes up with something that kills arthropods and they just start selling it.

    Moron.

    WLU..take a pill.

    Barky, try refuting an argument. Of course, you’d have to understand it first, and you’ve failed to do that even once so far.

    You call on the moderators to do something about my lack of courtesy. You may find it interesting to know that the only time I’ve ever seen a contributor blocked is for constant, pointless, nonsensical, unscientific comments. Like yours.

  89. WARNING! WARNING! EXTREME STUPIDITY PROXIMITY ALERT!

  90. @WLU, if we use rustic’s timeline, the popularity of the Beatles also corresponds. So, obviously “Please Please Me” was a government ploy to make people eat more and get fat so that we can pump them full of toxins and make them slaves to big pharma.

  91. WilliamLawrenceUtridge says:

    . ..no..vitamins..and nutrients..maybe omega 3s..did I ever even mention “EXERCISE”?????????????????????????????…

    How will omega fatty acids repair a congenital heart defect? And maybe you want to stop arrogantly poking at what must be an incredibly sensitive topic for Chris?

    I didn’t read the rest of your BS as usual ..moderator..please gag William..he needs mental screening. Diabetes I ..I said helps..not cure…there are supplements ..cinnamon is one

    Replace “read” with “understand” and you’ve got your first factually accurate sentence.

    Cinnamon helps with type I diabetes? How, since its mechanism seems to be stimulating insulin production.

  92. Maybe the British invasion was actually them taking over our healthcare system with their socialistic ideals.

  93. ^ If a child was admitted with DKA because their idiotic parent was trying to treat it with cinnamon, Child Protective Services would be called as soon as they were admitted.

  94. weing says:

    “WLU..take a pill.”

    Judging by what rusti thinks of medications, could this be a death threat?

  95. Jan Willem Nienhuys says:

    Maybe UFO’s or fear about sinister conspiracies also cause obesity. (Or irreligiosity, that’s on the rise too, or is that caused by obesity?) Ah, I got it. It’s the Jesuits/Freemasons (and Reading Societies aka blogs) /Illuminati/Jews/Communists/Nazis/Reptilian-Aliens that really make people fat; America as just one big Hansel and Gretel cookie house destined to fatten the human cattle for the slaughter. Really simple if you think about it.

    I can’t see why anyone at all takes this rustic chap serious. Apply rule 14.

  96. weing says:

    “The gov would have not spent billions and billions of $$ on needless research and subsidies on carcinogenic grown food”

    Wow, we could stop all cancer research as rusti found the true cause. We will have no more cancer. Dr. Gorski, you’ll be out of a job.

  97. WilliamLawrenceUtridge says:

    Crime is at an all-time low in North America, but fear of crime has been rising steadily for years. Perhaps this is the cause of all obesity? Or perhaps fear of zombies?

  98. Jan..maybe just estrogens/hormones antibiotics and other chemicals do. Are they from aliens..or from ‘science-based’ chemical labs?

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