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231 thoughts on “Ringing in 2012 with…antivaccine propaganda?

  1. lilady says:

    “useful here as an example of Dunning-Kruger (Don’t even have a clue what this means)”

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

    (“Dunning-Kruger Effect” is always denied Dunning-Kruger Effect “posters”)

  2. weing says:

    “So 40 years of study of the common cold and flu failed to find a cure, it’s all bull. No proof of the mythical pustulates of Koch’s then either?”

    What was it Edison said about knowing a thousand ways of not making a light bulb? As all liars, you expect us not to use logic and reason and believe your nonsense.

  3. weing says:

    @Chris,
    “By the way, the “common cold” is caused by at least 200 different viruses.” But it’s still true we don’t have a cure for it. Like the broken clock, she is correct.

  4. Chris says:

    I would also like to ask Sarah, that if mercury is still in vaccines in amounts that cause problems, why did Sallie Bernard have to seek them in 2001?

  5. sarah007 says:

    So boys, no comment on the cold research units total failure to prove the contagen theory of flu just some weak side distraction of I said she said you said.

    Wong I think you are getting your metaphors mixed with you insults.

    Lilady is still stuck up the Kruger, no idea what this has to do with the myths of vaccination but there you go lots of believers and deniers, can’t expect much really.

    So far there are 4 or 5 vaccine believers and that’s it.

  6. sarah007 says:

    Chris the paper on this site that attempts/fails to refute the mercury autism link says that there are no long term toxicity studies on ethyl mercury so we don’t know how toxic it is!

    Amazing really but I suppose that’s the difference between EBM and real science, if you don’t know you can’t knock it.

    I prefer to follow the idea that mercury is bloody poisonous full stop. If some vaccine companies and a load of bent researchers want to try and construct an idea that injecting it into kids is safe that’s their fantasy, however ‘qualified’ they are.

  7. weing says:

    So, pointing out that someone is lying is considered an insult and not polite. We should be polite, and accept as true, the made up facts of the prevaricator? I don’t think so.

  8. weing says:

    ” the paper on this site that attempts/fails to refute the mercury autism link says that there are no long term toxicity studies on ethyl mercury so we don’t know how toxic it is!” The paper does not say this at all. You are making it up.

  9. bgoudie says:

    Sara007
    so your evidence is a newspaper clipping shown in a very superficial mention of a book. A clip with no actual citation to the data stated. We don’t know when that particular trail occurred, or what strain of influenza was involved.

    Beyond the less than concrete nature of this information what the newspaper article says is that 3 in 32 rate of transmission was from a 2 hour exposure in close contact with infected patients.

    This is not as you’ve been saying previously that the CCU failed to infect more than 11% by injecting the virus up their noses. Nor is there anything here that would back up the claim that “this is less than placebo”

    You keep taking vaguely connected statements, adding extra interpretations to them and claiming they are proof that vaccination is a myth.

    This isn’t what people mean by evidence or scientific examinations of the facts. The only myths involved here are the ones you ‘re trying to invent. I use myths instead of lies but there is slim chance that you are well meaning if deluded instead of a just a shill for a quack.

  10. Chris says:

    Sarah, which paper? And exactly why did Sallie Bernard have trouble finding pediatric vaccines with thimerosal in 2001? Please answer the question I actually askes.

    Plus, cold research has revealed that there lots and lots of difference viruses, most of them rhinovirus. That is why some colds are in your chest, some in you head, and on an on. You will have to have several colds per year to become immune to all of them in an 80 year lifetime.

    So what qualifications do you have to tell us there is no research into colds? Are you dismissing this:

    Science. 2009 Apr 3;324(5923):55-9. Epub 2009 Feb 12.
    Sequencing and analyses of all known human rhinovirus genomes reveal structure and evolution.

    J Allergy Clin Immunol. 2010 Jun;125(6):1190-9; quiz 1200-1. Epub 2010 May 14.
    Analysis of the complete genome sequences of human rhinovirus.

    Really, why should we care about your opinions?

  11. Narad says:

    Maybe we should get a group of septiks, and a group of natural hygienists in a room, you lot have the vaccine and they don’t.

    Well, there’s an odd thing to interject a week in.

  12. lilady says:

    @ Narad:

    “Maybe we should get a group of septiks, and a group of natural hygienists in a room, you lot have the vaccine and they don’t.”

    “Well, there’s an odd thing to interject a week in.”

    Not so odd, when your only sources are notorious anti-vax websites and wacko conspiracy websites:

    http://www.whale.to/a/mcbean2.html

  13. I’m just tuning in. Are these goobers really saying that the cold and flu aren’t caused by viruses? If so, I hope the internet quickly evolves the point that it can detect when people are true idiots and automatically shuts off in their house. I can’t begin to be remotely polite to people who are insufferably stupid.

  14. Narad says:

    Are these goobers really saying that the cold and flu aren’t caused by viruses?

    Yup. Sounds like Alec Burton on a bender, actually.

  15. Chris says:

    I once read on UseNet that there should be real pain associated with John Scudamore’s stupidity. He is the fellow that runs the whale.to website, and is the subject of Scopie’s Law:

    In any discussion involving science or medicine, citing Whale.to as a credible source loses you the argument immediately …and gets you laughed out of the room.

    Except I believe Mr. Scudamore is impervious to pain. He has cloudbusters and <a href="http://www.whale.to/b/towerbuster_h.html&quot; using organite to protect himself.

  16. Chris says:

    Rats, the last link was to the “towerbusters” at http://www.whale.to/b/towerbuster_h.html

    Woot!

  17. sarah007 says:

    Chris put this paper up about mercury in vaccines: response in Pediatrics explains
    “Thimerosal and Autism?

    Concern has been expressed over the possibility that the mercury-containing compound thimerosal in vaccines may cause autism.1–4 Thimerosal is sodium ethylmercury thiosalicylate, an organic compound of ethyl mercury, included in certain vaccines to protect multiple dose ampules from bacterial and fungal contamination. Mercury in sufficient dose is neurotoxic, and probably more toxic in the immature brain. It is reasonable to ask whether thimerosal in childhood vaccine increases risk of chronic childhood neurologic disability and specifically of autism. The available data with which to address the question are very limited and largely inferential. Most of the information we have about mercury toxicity is related to exposure to methyl rather than ethyl mercury.”

    It would seem bizzare that the main data used for this study was for methyl rather than ethyl mercury.

    Bgoudie, a real scientist would find the failure to prove the contagen theory of flu and colds interesting. A septic however freaks and trys to debunk at all costs and veers off into non specific rants that make no sense.

    Are you the kind of experts working in this field or just some random time waster?

    You know a lot more people find the half dozen or so flu believers here a lot more funny than the challenge that it’s bollocks. You have been watching too many movies about scientists saving the world boys.

    I am not here to make you care boys, I am here to top up on chuckles. I know I shouldn’t laugh but to find a living flat earth society is to fascinating to pass by.

  18. lilady says:

    Sarah is still using snippets to support her fallacious arguments about thimerosol…and still deliberately omitting the conclusions of the two authors of this 2003 article that was provided by Chris.

    Had Sarah actually read the article provided by Chris, http://www.pediatricsdigest.mobi/content/111/3/674.full
    she would have seen that the article was in response to Sallie Bernard’s article published in “Medical Hypothesis” where Bernard, etal, purportedly found ~95 similarities between methyl and ethyl mercury poisoning.

    The article that Chris provided and linked to…and which I have also linked to, completely and absolutely debunked Bernard’s ~ 95 similarities with actual postmortem brain size measurements, the vastly different areas of the brains affected by methyl mercury poisoning from toxic spills and the brains of autistic children, as well as the actually neurological symptoms seen in individuals with methyl mercury toxicity versus the completely different neurological symptoms observed in autistic individuals.

    The authors of Chris’ linked article then totally and irrefutably further debunk’s Bernard’s other statements about finding and measuring mercury levels in autistic individuals by dubious blood tests and hair analysis. Furthermore, Chris’ linked article discusses the broadening of the DSM IV criteria (specifically the addition of the “Autism Spectrum Disorders” diagnosis), which makes it “appear” to the ever-credulous Sarah, that the incidence of Autism has increased.

    Why did Sarah deliberately and conveniently omit the “Conclusions” Section of Chris’ linked article?:

    CONCLUSIONS

    “Continuing vigilance is necessary regarding the safety of vaccines, as is open-minded evaluation of new evidence. However, such evidence must be of sufficient scientific rigor to provide a responsible basis for decisions that influence the safety of children. When information is incomplete, as it is at present for thimerosal-autism questions, a balancing must be made of risks posed by vaccine constituents and the benefits of disease prevention achieved by keeping immunizations widely available. On the basis of current evidence, we consider it improbable that thimerosal and autism are linked.”

    (hint to Sarah) Try actually reading the articles cited here, before you pick and chose snippets, and present them as facts.

  19. WilliamLawrenceUtridge says:

    Barry’s book definitely doesn’t conclude that modern medicine saved the world. First, Barry quite clearly documents how helpless “modern medicine” was (such as it existed at the time) to deal with the pandemic. Second, it’s pretty clear that his thesis is the influenza virus was a “perfect storm” of factors leading to massive deaths – enormous troop mobilization was responsible for spreading an unusually lethal strain of influenza throughout the United States and the world in an incredibly short period of time before it reverted to a less lethal strain several weeks later. I’m not sure how you could read the book and miss that conclusion – there was no treatment for the 1918 influenza, but a lot of factors that pushed it into being much more dangerous than normal.

    Incidentally, since you believe “natural hygiene” is so effective, I am curious – would you volunteer to help out with an Ebola infection? Or scrub down, without gloves, a surgical theatre that was just used to treat a MRSA patient? Would you be willing to spend time reading to a patient with antibiotic-resistant tuberculosis? Would you support your spouse, children and friends doing these things?

    Also, do you realize that influenza is not “the common cold”? Perhaps in the popular mind it is, but scientifically they are two different species – influenza is caused by the Orthomyxoviridae genus, while the “common cold” are caused by Rhinoviruses. Viruses aren’t “cured” by the way, the most effective intervention is vaccination but that’s pretty much useless if you’re previously infected. Bacterial infections are treated with antibiotics, viruses are generally treated symptomatically until the immune system clears it. Antivirals are used for unusually dangerous viruses to inhibit replication and slow it down.

    Chris, I don’t care about Sarah’s opinions, they’re obviously wrong. I always post on threads like this to demonstrate that the points are factually incorrect, easily refuted, and thus ensure any people who come here to learn are not convinced by her superficially believable conspiracy theories. She’s obviously not going to read anything we point out, and will claim peer review is too biased to ever give factually correct results. Why she thinks Joe Mercola is trustworthy (and where he gets his information, and how it’s somehow better than peer reviewed research) I’m not sure. I assume it’s because he gives his information away for free? I can only assume the extensive list of services on his website are also free.

    Also amusing is that he lists “Aspartame and its effects on health” as a publication in his CV…leaving out the fact that it’s a rapid response (i.e. a basically unscreened, on-line letter to the editor). I could write a rapid response and put it on my resume too.

    Yep, he’s deifnitely the most honest medical practitioner out there.

  20. WilliamLawrenceUtridge says:

    OK, this is also awesome.

    It would seem bizzare that the main data used for this study was for methyl rather than ethyl mercury.

    The reason is stated in the section you quote. There is no safety or toxicity data for ethyl mercury, and this is a common criticism of anti-thiomersal zealots – they use the data on methyl mercury and the body’s processing of ethyl mercury to be handled the same way. It’s not, the data suggests it’s eliminated much, much faster than methyl mercury.

    Bgoudie, a real scientist would find the failure to prove the contagen theory of flu and colds interesting. A septic however freaks and trys to debunk at all costs and veers off into non specific rants that make no sense.

    A real scientist would assume that the contaigen theory of infectious diseases to be uncontroversial and the basic premises to be settled years ago. They would realize that continually testing the theory when there is so much convergent data and empirical leaps based on the theory would be worthless. It’s like creationists asking for “just one missing link” or “one experiment proving evolution”, ignoring the fact that thousands have been found or conducted. Need I bring up AIDS and Holocaust deniers again? Research and empirical conclusions are based on the convergence of data, not on a single smoking gun.

    I am not here to make you care boys, I am here to top up on chuckles. I know I shouldn’t laugh but to find a living flat earth society is to fascinating to pass by.

    Sarah, can you prove the earth is round? You claim it is round, but us flat-earthers disagree. So naturally you have some sort of unarguable, perfect evidence that you can show me right now that indicates it’s round, right? If not, that means I win and the earth is flat.

  21. Chris says:

    Sarah, why is it that Sallie Bernard had to beg on the Autism/Mercury Yahoo group for vaccines with thimerosal in 2001?

    If you are still going on about mercury in vaccines, you should at least tell us why Ms. Bernard, one of the authors of the paper that was debunked, could not actually find vaccines with that evil ingredient over a decade ago.

    WLU, true. We will not change her mind, but I am curious why she thinks her opinion is better than the facts.

  22. WilliamLawrenceUtridge says:

    Chris, have you read Mistakes were Made (but not by me)? Sarah has been faced, like all people, with a decision – either keep believing what she believes, or realize that she’s made a mistake and has been wrong. Cognitive dissonance theory states that most people, to preserve a positive self-image, will attack the facts and claim the facts are wrong rather than adjust their self-image to recognize they’ve been wrong. It’s how formerly married couples go from deeply loving each other to being notoriously bitterly acrimonious – each comes to believe the other must be be wrong, and utterly without merit; the alternative is to believe they’ve made a huge mistake and wasted much of their previous lives with someone they now hate. It’s a self-justification spiral.

    In Sarah’s case, she’s obviously spent time and effort justifying her medical choices. Now faced with contrary evidence, she can either believe in a vast conspiracy of evil doctors who (for some reason) actively want to harm her children, or she can believe she’s been putting her children’s health at risk for years for no good reason. Like most who are already deep in the rabbit hole, she’s choosing to dig. It’s a form of emotion-based coping that people use to fool themselves into believing they can achieve perfect health in themselves and their families – supported by the fact that modern society is for the most part quite healthy.

    Unlike scientists, who must swallow their pride, submit their work to criticism (peer review), admit they’re wrong on a frequent basis and improve their methods in order to be respected (and thus improve science over the years) the average person has very little incentive to be correct about complicated subjects. Thus, Republicans (or Democrats) aren’t just wrong, they’re evil. Autism doesn’t just happen, it’s a conspiracy. I don’t like vaccines, thus they are stupid.

  23. bgoudie says:

    @sarah007
    “Bgoudie, a real scientist would find the failure to prove the contagen theory of flu and colds interesting. A septic however freaks and trys to debunk at all costs and veers off into non specific rants that make no sense.”

    Except the contagion theory has been proven time and time again. Do some actual research on the subject and you can find the studies and data that support it. Just as you can find the studies that show the usefulness of influenza vaccines against the specific strain they are made for. here’s a very good example of both: http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract;jsessionid=0E09E458FF0E795F760B0D5515FB17B3.journals?fromPage=online&aid=4694744

    All you have provided to support your position is a number pulled from an incomplete newspaper article. This doesn’t even require debunking because it isn’t any kind of useful data nor is it evidence of anything. You were asked to show citations for your claim. You still haven’t done so.

    “Are you the kind of experts working in this field or just some random time waster?”

    Actually I’m historian. That gives me a very solid skill set in looking for evidence, seeking out primary sources, separating people’s opinions and subjective description from the actual facts, and analyzing the whole picture.

    “You know a lot more people find the half dozen or so flu believers here a lot more funny than the challenge that it’s bollocks. You have been watching too many movies about scientists saving the world boys.”

    No we’ve been living in a world where science has saved us from a great deal of the ills and tribulations that have plagued (pun intended) humanity for most of its existence.

  24. WilliamLawrenceUtridge says:

    bgoudie, Sarah has provided citations! She just happens to be the only person on this blog whose comments never make it out of moderation. Perhaps in the future she should simply post the title, author and journal of the citation she is providing, so any weblinks don’t get stuck in moderation.

  25. Chris says:

    WLU:

    Chris, have you read Mistakes were Made (but not by me)?

    Well, wouldn’t you know! I am reading it right now. Is it a coincidence? (yes, that is the definition of coincidence).

    Of course, she is not going to change her mind. Though it may help to continually show that there are facts that contradict almost everything she says. One of my favorites is that the person who was a co-author of the paper in Medical Hypothesis, Autism: a Novel Form of Mercury Poisoning, was unable to find a certain pediatric vaccine with thimerosal over a decade ago. Notice how Sallie has ignored that little fact.

    Sallie Bernard also suffers from cognitive dissonance, because even though she helped design a study with the CDC, she did got upset when the results were not to her liking:

    Sour grapes, anyone? Ms. Bernard was a consultant on this study and helped contribute to its design! She apparently didn’t like the results that it was producing and decided to drop out and start criticizing it–even jumping the gun on the 5 PM embargo yesterday to do so! Indeed, she is listed on the study in a way that I’ve never seen before: as a “dissenting member.”

  26. Chris says:

    Oh, shucks. My comment with two links went into moderation.

    Just have to say, WLU, I am presently reading Mistakes were Made (but not by me).

  27. sarah007 says:

    Lilady said:

    “Continuing vigilance is necessary regarding the safety of vaccines, as is open-minded evaluation of new evidence. However, such evidence must be of sufficient scientific rigor to provide a responsible basis for decisions that influence the safety of children. When information is incomplete, as it is at present for thimerosal-autism questions, a balancing must be made of risks posed by vaccine constituents and the benefits of disease prevention achieved by keeping immunizations widely available. On the basis of current evidence, we consider it improbable that thimerosal and autism are linked.”

    Problem is Lilady is who does the ‘vigilance’? Why is the information regarding thimerosal/autism incomplete and who is balancing the ‘risks’, what to profit or benefit.

    Who considers the ‘improbable’ link, I thought EBM was based on facts and research, not publication biased opinion and hope.

    William has pointed out and let on that he is part of the peer review here as he gets to look at moderation:

    “bgoudie, Sarah has provided citations! She just happens to be the only person on this blog whose comments never make it out of moderation. Perhaps in the future she should simply post the title, author and journal of the citation she is providing, so any weblinks don’t get stuck in moderation.”

    No wonder a discussion is impossible here, it’s like secret police Romania!

    So can we take it then that all the other posts are unmoderated mantra chanting about the wonderful benefits of smearing pus in cuts to provide immunity to pus?

  28. sarah007 says:

    William said:

    “A real scientist would assume that the contaigen theory of infectious diseases to be uncontroversial and the basic premises to be settled years ago.”

    This is not science William. When the cold and research unit showed that contaigen theory was not true they shut it down. Polarity science forces you to protect your beliefs at all costs, again this is not science. As soon as any paper comes out showing negative for vaccines sites like this start posting ‘anyone done any debunking’.

    What happens with Septik polarity medicine is always that it reverts to the mean, consensus at all costs. Medical peer review is corrupt, so therefore is a lot of medical ‘science’.

  29. WilliamLawrenceUtridge says:

    It’s funny that Sarah keeps bringing up mercury and autism since thiomersal is no longer found in most vaccines (with no changes in autism rates). It’s even funnier that she then goes on to lecture us about bias in evidence. Then there’s the not so much funny but sad assumption that every single doctor or researcher who has ever done a study is so incredibly unethical and bound up in corporate dollars that not a single one of them is willing to break ranks and voice the conspiracy – when every single conspiracy has an incredibly hard time maintaining secrecy (in this case for several decades). Occam’s razor – there are two choices, tiny amounts of ethyl mercury, which is rapidly excreted from the body (much faster than methyl mercury, on which safety guidelines are based) doesn’t cause autism – or millions of researchers and doctors, who went into medicine out of a desire to help people, are all conspiring to keep the link secret. Science is indeed based on evidence and research – which is why it tested the thiomersal-autism link and when none was established, moved on. It’s only ignorant zealots with no understanding of science who selectively or wholeheartedly ignore results in favour of their preconcieved conclusion.

    I can’t see the moderation of links – I was implying that you never actually provide links, you just claim you do. But again, I’ve given you a solution, don’t include links! Give us the author’s name, article title, journal title and year, and we’ll do the rest.

    No wonder a discussion is impossible here, it’s like secret police Romania!

    Actually, it’s more like trying to convince an unmedicated schizophrenic that their delusions are unfounded.

    So can we take it then that all the other posts are unmoderated mantra chanting about the wonderful benefits of smearing pus in cuts to provide immunity to pus?

    What does that have to do with anything? That was the approach used before proper laboratory techniques existed to innoculate using the cowpox virus to prevent smallpox. Modern vaccination uses attenuated live pathogens or killed particles, making your charge yet another propaganda strawman. If you genuinely have evidence, and not merely a conclusion you use insults and propaganda to support (the latter puts you a lot closer to secret police Romania than anything SBM says), please present it.

    This is not science William. When the cold and research unit showed that contaigen theory was not true they shut it down. Polarity science forces you to protect your beliefs at all costs, again this is not science. As soon as any paper comes out showing negative for vaccines sites like this start posting ‘anyone done any debunking’.

    Um…even if your summary were true (which I doubt), that would suggest that research about rhinoviruses had issues – not that the germ theory of disease were overturned. Again, you’re in the same company of creationists, who insist the Piltdown man controversy disproves the entire theory of evolution – when in fact it was science who disproved it, then moved on. A single study doesn’t prove or disprove anything, it is the totality of the evidence. Once again, your description of science, and by proxy your understanding of science, is simply wrong. Either that or you do know how science works and you are simply lying.

  30. Dawn says:

    I’m really beginning to think sarah007 is a troll. How on earth could anyone have missed the sarcasm in WLU’s comment about her links?

    Sarah: there IS ongoing review of vaccines and safety. If the risk from the vaccine is greater than the risk of catching the disease, the vaccine is not given. Why do we no longer give the smallpox vaccine to the general public (I have a scar from it – my 5 years younger sister never got it – know why?) Why doesn’t the general public here get Yellow Fever vaccines, Malaria vaccines, Typhoid vaccines? Why does the Vaccine Court have a “Table List” of injuries associated with vaccines so that if you can prove your child was injured by a vaccine, with a known injury type, you can be compensated quickly and easily?

    Why does the USA generally give the IPV to children instead of the more effective OPV? Why have the MORBIDITY rates of most vaccine preventable diseases gone down (note I am asking about MORBIDITY [infection occurance]and not MORTALITY [death] rates)? Why were my parents and their generation so afraid of polio, measles, mumps, pertussis, chicken pox? What did THEY know that the younger generations don’t?

    As for the flu and the common cold – sarah has shown she has no understanding of the variety of either, the risk of infection, or the signs and symptoms of one from the other.

    I’ve almost decided that people with numbers in their ‘nyms are dangerous – think of “It-who-must-not-be-named-with-numbers” and sarah007, here. (BTW – does sarah see herself as a female James Bond – the hero who always saves the day, against all odds?) However, there are exceptions that prove my rule….

  31. Dawn says:

    I re-read my comment and STILL missed fixing this (forgot the “just” before mortality – I hope the HTML works!!!)

    Why have the MORBIDITY rates of most vaccine preventable diseases gone down (note I am asking about MORBIDITY [infection occurance]and notjust MORTALITY [death] rates)? Why were my parents and their generation so afraid of polio, measles, mumps, pertussis, chicken pox? What did THEY know that the younger generations don’t?

  32. WilliamLawrenceUtridge says:

    Dawn, many the commentor has disparaged WordPress’s terrible interface and lack of comments-editing. To embed a URL, use the following but replace square brackets with angle brackets (greater-than/less-than signs):

    [a href = "http://www.example.com"]link name[/a]

    Also, what do parents and the generations so afraid of polio, measles, mumps, pertussis and chicken pox know that the younger generation doesn’t? Fear, grief and the unnecessary deaths of children.

  33. mousethatroared says:

    WLU – “Actually, it’s more like trying to convince an unmedicated schizophrenic that their delusions are unfounded.”

    Yes it is. I would add, with the number of people visiting this site each day, it is statistically inevitable that some of them have a delusional mental disorder.

    Also there is a point that, no matter how frustrating it is, one probably should admit that arguing with someone who is paranoid or delusional is not only ineffective, it may also be counter-productive. There may even be a slight risk of acerbating volatile relationships with the commentor’s family, associates, doctors or police.

    Sorry to seem alarmist, but, I don’t know… just maybe something to think about.

    On the other hand, probably Sarah is just a CAM enthusiasts who enjoys bating SBM posters. Who can know from a bunch of comments online.

  34. Chris says:

    Sarah:

    Problem is Lilady is who does the ‘vigilance’? Why is the information regarding thimerosal/autism incomplete and who is balancing the ‘risks’, what to profit or benefit.

    Why did Sallie Bernard have to ask folks on the Autism/Mercury Yahoo to help her find DTaP vaccines with thimerosal in 2001?

    Have you even tried answering that question?

  35. lilady says:

    IMO, “something” that Sarah read on the internet fired her up. We know that her “choice” of information from the internet consists of whale.to, Joe Mercola and other crank websites.

    She also has deep-seated animosity directed at science bloggers and those that post on science blogs, as evidenced by her first over-the-top snide remarks directed at Doctors Gorski, Hall and Crislip. Her minimal (cherry-picked) snippets of partial paragraphs, her omission of citations and her spectacular lack of knowledge of basic science, are the audience that the notorious anti-vax bloggers rely on.

    She lost her arguments against science, days ago, yet continues the brave fight to try and convince us that she *knows* what she is blathering about. Just an angry, ignorant, uneducated conspiracist who has now devolved into a troll. Sad.

  36. WilliamLawrenceUtridge says:

    Arguing with Thing, or Thing’s clone Sarah, is of course futile. My target audience is always the person who might find comments like theirs’ convincing.

    To you, dear reader, I say – please feel free to ask questions in the comments section. Most of the cranks rely on the selective quotation of very old information that is very, very easy to refute (for instance, that mercury causes autism – it does not and there are many studies to demonstrate this). On occasion they rely on bare assertion that is either patently untrue (such as that no doctors ever counsel losing weight or exercise to their patients, and actually encourage them to get fat so they can prescribe drugs – I’ve never personally experienced this and I doubt you have either), or little more than their opinion (such as no studies can ever be trusted because all doctors are being bribed by Big Pharma to lie to their patients and force them to take more medications). Common sense and some basic reading quickly demonstrate how wrong the trolls and cranks are, and I’m quite willing to provide both.

  37. weing says:

    “This is not science William…..”
    How would an ignoramus like Sarah007 even know what science is. She has not demonstrated any knowledge of science or the scientific process. Actually she has demonstrated just the opposite.

  38. sarah007 says:

    Weing, wong again. The issue is about evidence not your selection bias. EBM has big issues with cooked data so this goose chase about peer review being the only truth stacks up the crap again and again.

    A new review of the influenza drug oseltamivir (Tamiflu) has raised questions about both the efficacy of the medication and the commitment of its maker to supply enough data for claims about the drug to be evaluated by independent experts.

    “What we’re seeing is largely Chapter One and Chapter Two of reports that usually have four or five chapters,” according to the BMJ article’s lead author, Peter Doshi, PhD, of Johns Hopkins University.

    Why so little comment about the Danish study of flu vaccine effectiveness in people with chronic diseases? At best the pandemic vaccine was only 49% effective in preventing lab-confirmed disease from pH1N1 after 14 days, and in the first week after vaccination it nearly quadrupled the associated risk of being hospitalized with pH1N1! Furthermore, prior receipt of seasonal flu vaccine alone nearly tripled the associated risk of hospitalization with pH1N1! This was a large study in an integrated health system that efficiently linked vaccination with outcomes and effectively overcame selection bias. It should prompt us to reconsider national flu vaccination programs, but no one is talking. Were the authors’ conclusions too understated? Have we been distracted by the laboratory bird flu flap? Has the current flu season thus far been mild enough to quiet our passions?
    Allan S. Cunningham, Retired Pediatrician, BMJ

  39. sarah007 says:

    Mousey, you need to read some critque of the medical peer review process, your mantras are getting very boring and the ad hom is at the dull end of predictable.

    Dear readers, most of the flat earth scientists here rely on ‘properly biased peer review’. This lies sic somewhere between PR and marketing on the stats table and is prone to uturnitis or withdrawl syndrome at the first sign of litigation.

    Anyone who even dares to point out ‘pants down and cock out’ gets shot. They still believe there was a flu pandemic last year and actually lined up for flu shots that had no EBM behind it and still believe in the woo of flu.

    Common sense tells us that anyone who thinks there was a pandemic is either reading from the wrong song sheet or not got much of an opinion.

    My target audience is people who insist on pretending there is only their truth with regard to healthcare, one based on fear and largely dark ages ideas. The patient is not allowed to be informed and all diseases appear as part of bad luck or something called genomobollocks. Considering only 10% of the body is genomable, the rest being bacteria, their having a laugh.

    Dawn of time said: “Why were my parents and their generation so afraid of polio, measles, mumps, pertussis, chicken pox? What did THEY know that the younger generations don’t?”

    Because they didn’t have a clue what they understood Dawn, I mean I know in America one is taught to suck the flag and believe everything and not have an opinion that isn’t state sanctioned but this fear stuff is nonsense. There is no EBM in their fear just a pile of understanding.

  40. sarah007 says:

    Dawny, I know it looks associated but it’s got crock tiddly to do with vaccination.

    Dawn said: “Why have the MORBIDITY rates of most vaccine preventable diseases gone down (note I am asking about MORBIDITY [infection occurance]and notjust MORTALITY [death] rates)?”

    So called other infectious diseases that never had a vaccine went down at the same rate, which means it’s like associating the decline of diseases with the introduction of the tv set.

    Try better housing, social conditions, clean water and better food. It’s why vaccines don’t work the closer you get to the equator Dawn, it’s GDP that matters not some fanciful idea that you can pump a load of cellular detritius and preservative into a kid and make him/her healthy.

    BBC’s broadcast, The Vaccine Detectives.

    A single dose of DTP vaccine not only doubled the mortality rate in infants, but more than quadruped the rate after the second and third DTP doses.

    You want to check out this film the BBC made in Guinea-Bissau if you really believe that mortality is falling for vaxxed kids, oh I forgot you can’t your a vaxx believer, oh well.

  41. sarah007 says:

    Lilady, what an orgasm of skeptichaff. Anyway, I find the idea that you actually believe in the swine flu pandemic puts you much futher up the pole of tinky boo really, I mean you actually believed enought in the woo of flu to get an experimental injection, one that’s put loads of kids in Finland into horrible chronic illness.

    How sane is that when it’s at home ladyboy?

    Science and septicscience are not one and the same, it is criminal that you even claim an association but I suppose a flu believer needs all the help he/she can get.

  42. sarah007 says:

    Gosh you guys need some help.

  43. Narad says:

    So can we take it then that all the other posts are unmoderated mantra chanting about the wonderful benefits of smearing pus in cuts to provide immunity to pus?

    As always, Natural Hygiene loves it some pus. Where does Vivian Vetrano’s body count stand, Sarah?

  44. weing says:

    I am good. Right as usual. What did I say? She has no inkling of what science is. She just provided more evidence.

  45. Narad says:

    You want to check out this film the BBC made in Guinea-Bissau if you really believe that mortality is falling for vaxxed kids, oh I forgot you can’t your a vaxx believer, oh well.

    My worst fears have been confirmed: someone actually has managed to grow an Emily-Blackheart hybrid in a tank. [/RI reference]

  46. Chris says:

    Sarah is more than welcome in Guinea-Bissau with only the average local income, and then tell us exactly how it equates to living in North America or Europe.

    Sarah, exactly why did Sallie Bernard have to seek help in finding DTaP vaccine with thimerosal in 2001?

  47. lilady says:

    The investigations into the increased incidence of narcolepsy onset after vaccination with the H1N1 vaccine are complete and published by Finnish health authorities:

    Within this report is a statement about the efficacy of the vaccine to prevent hospitalizations and deaths associated with the virus-versus-the very small risk of narcolepsy…within a subset of younger people who have a genetic predisposition for narcolepsy:

    “Pandemrix vaccine reduced the number of deaths from swine flu and the need for intensive care

    The Pandemrix vaccine was used in the winter of 2009–2010 to prevent the swine flu epidemic. About half of the Finnish population chose to be vaccinated. In autumn 2009 at the peak of the epidemic, the daily number of people (mainly under the age of 65) in hospital care was 400, with more than 50 patients in intensive care. There were 44 deaths from swine flu confirmed by laboratory tests. A significant number of severe cases were prevented during the 2009–2010 season, even if vaccines were given at about the same time as the epidemic reached Finland. Vaccinations of the groups most at risk from swine flu were completed by the local authorities before the first wave of the epidemic struck.

    During the influenza season 2010–2011, 52 persons were treated in intensive care, and 13 succumbed. Most of these were unvaccinated. Combining the data on morbidity and mortality with data on vaccinations in the 2009–2010 pandemic season indicate that a swine flu vaccination taken in the pandemic season had provided 75–88 per cent protection against the swine flu virus in winter 2010–2011. Based on these vaccine effectiveness figures, it has been estimated that during the first wave in 2009-2010, the swine flu vaccine prevented approximately 40 000 cases of swine flu, and during the second wave in 2010-2011, another 40 000 cases of
    swine flu.”

    Source: Finland’s National Institute for Health and Welfare “Association Between Pandemrix and Narcolepsy Confirmed among Finnish Children and Adults”-September 1, 2011

    (I wonder how many of Sarah’s “Sources” actually linked to the Final Report from the Finnish health authorities?)

  48. sarah007 says:

    “it has been estimated that during the first wave in 2009-2010, the swine flu vaccine prevented approximately 40 000 cases of swine flu”

    Science of the believer Lilady.

    “At best the pandemic vaccine was only 49% effective in preventing lab-confirmed disease from pH1N1 after 14 days, and in the first week after vaccination it nearly quadrupled the associated risk of being hospitalized with pH1N1! Furthermore, prior receipt of seasonal flu vaccine alone nearly tripled the associated risk of hospitalization with pH1N1!”Allan S. Cunningham, Retired Pediatrician, BMJ

    Put that in your stats and smoke it.

  49. Narad says:

    “At best the pandemic vaccine was only 49% effective in preventing lab-confirmed disease from pH1N1 after 14 days”

    And how do you reconcile this pregnantly repeated item with the notion that “‘flu virus’ does not cause flu”?

  50. Chris says:

    Sarah, why did Sallie Bernard of SafeMinds have trouble getting DTaP vaccine with thimerosal in 2001?

  51. lilady says:

    ““At best the pandemic vaccine was only 49% effective in preventing lab-confirmed disease from pH1N1 after 14 days, and in the first week after vaccination it nearly quadrupled the associated risk of being hospitalized with pH1N1! Furthermore, prior receipt of seasonal flu vaccine alone nearly tripled the associated risk of hospitalization with pH1N1!”Allan S. Cunningham, Retired Pediatrician, BMJ”

    Still cherry-picking, eh Sarah? Not content to merely cherry-picking from an actual study or article published in the BMJ, Sarah now resorts to cherry-picking one of three “Rapid Responses” internet comments… from Dr. Cunningham, a retired pediatrician from Cooperstown New York.

    Here is the ACTUAL ARTICLE that appeared in the BMJ:

    http://www.bmj.com/content/344/bmj.d7901

    Oh, look here…I located where Dr. Cunningham is a “guest blogger”:

    http://therefusers.com/category/refusers-newsroom/

    PUT THAT IN YOUR STATS AND SMOKE IT, SARAH! LIAR!

  52. WilliamLawrenceUtridge says:

    Weing, wong again. The issue is about evidence not your selection bias. EBM has big issues with cooked data so this goose chase about peer review being the only truth stacks up the crap again and again. A new review of the influenza drug oseltamivir (Tamiflu) has raised questions about both the efficacy of the medication and the commitment of its maker to supply enough data for claims about the drug to be evaluated by independent experts.

    Where is cooked data about drug trials published and publicized? In the peer reviewed literature or on Dr. Joseph Mercola’s website? Your comment suggests it was in BMJ. So my real question is, do you trust the peer reviewed literature, or do you only trust it when it supports an ideology you were already committed to? Your “source” is Allan S. Cunningham, a retired pediatrician, providing commentary in the form of rapid responses to the BMJ. These are non-peer-reviewed web comments (not even letters to the editor) from a nonspecialist.

    Anyone who even dares to point out ‘pants down and cock out’ gets shot. They still believe there was a flu pandemic last year and actually lined up for flu shots that had no EBM behind it and still believe in the woo of flu.

    Influenza is pandemic every year – a pandemic is widespread human-to-human transmission. Pandemic doesn’t mean “lethal” or even “dangerous”.

    Considering only 10% of the body is genomable, the rest being bacteria, their having a laugh.

    What does genomable mean? What do you mean by “10%”, and why is that significant?

    I mean I know in America one is taught to suck the flag and believe everything and not have an opinion that isn’t state sanctioned but this fear stuff is nonsense.

    You may want to look up the terms “libertarian”, “tea party” and “health freedom”.

    So called other infectious diseases that never had a vaccine went down at the same rate……It’s why vaccines don’t work the closer you get to the equator…A single dose of DTP vaccine not only doubled the mortality rate in infants, but more than quadruped the rate after the second and third DTP doses.

    Um…[citation needed] Anyone can make a claim – for instance, you’re actually a hyperintelligent frog (making you obviously smart for a frog) mutated by being put in a microwave with a radioactive burrito. You can fly, shoot lasers out of your anus and smell like fresh baked apples. Anyone can claim something, but your ability to associate your statements with anything convincing is notably absent.

  53. Narad says:

    Influenza is pandemic every year – a pandemic is widespread human-to-human transmission.

    I believe that a new subtype is also required.

  54. lilady says:

    @ WilliamLawrenceUtridge:

    “… A single dose of DTP vaccine not only doubled the mortality rate in infants, but more than quadruped the rate after the second and third DTP doses.”

    “Um…[citation needed]”

    Just for you WLU…

    http://www.whale.to/v/nonspecific.html

    At the bottom of the page see the exact quotes from an article that appeared in Mercola’s Newsletter, about Dr. Peter Aaby’s stance on vaccinations in Africa.

  55. sarah007 says:

    Radnad I didn’t say “at best the vaccine prevents” someone else did, the point was the whole nonsensical quote about flu jab efficacy was an estimate.

    The fact was: in the first week after vaccination it nearly quadrupled the associated risk of being hospitalized with pH1N1! Furthermore, prior receipt of seasonal flu vaccine alone nearly tripled the associated risk of hospitalization with pH1N1!”Allan S. Cunningham, Retired Pediatrician, BMJ

    So the efficacy data was an estimate but the facts showed it made swine flu worse!

  56. sarah007 says:

    Lilady, rapid response is useful because the medical bent review process has less chance to moderate. I notice a typical septik science puke up here, if someone was once a doctor apparently they are demoted by armchair conspiracy theorists when they dare to report their findings that show vaccination is bullshit.

    As is now well etablished medical peer review is about as useful as an old boys network for reliable, honest evidence. Yes every now and again something is let through to keep the masses confused but on the large the idea that the only way you can stay healthy is keep in touch with your doctor is marketing fancy.

  57. sarah007 says:

    Here we go the moderation crew are back in action, this Septic peer review is great!

  58. weing says:

    “The fact was: in the first week after vaccination it nearly quadrupled the associated risk of being hospitalized with pH1N1! Furthermore, prior receipt of seasonal flu vaccine alone nearly tripled the associated risk of hospitalization with pH1N1!”Allan S. Cunningham, Retired Pediatrician, BMJ
    So the efficacy data was an estimate but the facts showed it made swine flu worse!”

    The fact is the flu vaccine does not begin to protect against the flu until after 2 weeks. Any idiot who thinks they get the shot and are immediately immune to it is just that, an idiot.

  59. sarah007 says:

    Gosh Wong, that’s some good weasel words there. You should get a job working for a government with that kind of spin. Here’s a few more soundbites that come up as explainations when vaccines are shown to do harm:

    “It’s not the vaccine that’s at fault it’s the process itself”

    “It was a faulty batch”

  60. sarah007 says:

    Thanks for the link to the pubmed lilady, if none of the vaccines were tested for overall mortality and the effects were just assumed we again have believe bias being substituted for evidence. It’s amazing that it is considered unethical to test these vaccines when benefit is assumed! How’s that for medieval science in practice?

    Hum Vaccin. 2011 Jan 1;7(1):120-4. Epub 2011 Jan 1.
    Non-specific and sex-differential effects of routine vaccines: what evidence is needed to take these effects into consideration in low-income countries?
    Aaby P, Benn CS.
    Source

    Bandim Health Project, Bissau, Guinea-Bissau, Denmark. p.aaby@bandim.org
    Abstract

    None of the original vaccines used in the child immunization programmes in low-income countries, including BCG, diphtheria-tetanus-pertussis (DTP), oral polio vaccine (OPV), and measles vaccine (MV), were tested for their overall effect on child mortality before being introduced. It was assumed that the effect on overall child mortality would be equivalent to the proportion of deaths caused by the targeted disease(s) (1). However, this is no longer a tenable assumption. Many studies have shown that these routine vaccines may have more general effects on the immune system than merely protecting against the targeted disease, i.e. so-called non-specific effects (NSE) (2). The NSE may well be more important for overall child survival than the lives saved by specific disease prevention (2-4). The WHO´s Global Advisory Committee on Vaccine Safety (GACVS) has recently stated that it will keep a watch on the non-specific effects (NSE) of vaccination. GACVS indicated that “conclusive evidence for or against non-specific effects of vaccines on mortality, including a potential deleterious effect of DTP vaccination on children’s survival as has been reported in some studies, was unlikely to be obtained from observational studies” (5). By insisting on new RCTs to provide conclusive evidence, GACVS is making it very difficult if not impossible to test the NSEs of the currently recommended vaccines. It would usually be considered unethical to test currently recommended vaccines as part of a trial withholding these vaccines from some children (6).

    PMID:
    21278492
    [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

  61. sarah007 says:

    Narad believes in a new subset, how enlightening.

  62. weing says:

    sarah007,

    It’s true. You’ve again proven my point. I guess you watch too much telly. They get the shot and are immediately immune. That’s Hollywood, not real life.

  63. WilliamLawrenceUtridge says:

    Lilady, I asked for a citation, not whale.to; you and I know whale.to isn’t real information, I was hoping that Sarah had something more substantive.

    Sarah, a blog comment by a retired pediatrician is not evidence, it is one person’s opinion. One pediatrician who did their training 40 years ago is not smarter than all the international experts who recommend vaccination. Also, did you read the entire abstract for Aaby & Benn 2011, particularly the final sentence? And did you read the entire article, that includes statements like:
    * [The measles vaccine] reduced overall mortality in the affected age group by 30–50%.
    * Hence, there is conclusive evidence that standard MV has major beneficial NSE.
    * [The tuberculosis vaccine] at birth reduced neonatal mortality with 45% (11–66%)
    * early [measles vaccine] had no beneficial effect if the children had received vitamin A supplementation at birth whereas it was associated with two-fold lower mortality between 4.5 and 36 months of age for the children who had not received VAS at birth.
    * [The tuberculosis vaccine] was associated with a significant three-fold reduction in mortality but mortality was two-fold increased if the children were likely to have received DTP booster after BCG revaccination

    Far from being a slam-dunk that vaccines are dangerous, the authors are making the case that vaccines are both strongly protective and one particular combination vaccine (diphtheria-tetanus-pertussis) may present unanticipated dangers that need to be studied. In particular, the authors are arguing for two things – study vaccines for previously unanticipated adverse effects (which is a bit of a “well duh” since that’s done anyway, but they are suggesting specific studies to be conducted) and suggest altering the use of vaccines in combination with vitamin A supplements given at birth and othe vaccines. The paper is not “all vaccines are evil”, it is “the DTP vaccine may require special treatment or possible elimination – for girls”. Even for DTP, the only vaccine that is possibly dangerous, the recommendation is to examine specific schedules of vaccination, and a new vaccine, not it’s elimination.

    It’s not a unitary phenomena, one vaccine is not all vaccines – each is different and requires specific study. We already knew this, and thanks to science, we can reduce children’s deaths even more with an appropriately designed vaccination schedule. Hooray for vaccines!

  64. sarah007 says:

    William darling, you are now playing the game of the cherry picker, we know that peer review that is funded by the people who make the vaccine is largely ghost written. If you continue to quote these fantasy documents as some kind of fact it’s going to turn into a ping pong of I said she said you said.

    “Even for DTP, the only vaccine that is possibly dangerous, the recommendation is to examine specific schedules of vaccination, and a new vaccine, not it’s elimination.”

    I love the possibly dangerous, and the idea that the supplement of vitamins is the suspect. All highly speclative and considering the DPT in this report says it may be dangerous have you noticed any changes to the child vaccine schedule to reflect this or is it business as usual.

    William said previously: “Where is cooked data about drug trials published and publicized?”

    Just about everywhere Willy darling, just because someone you don’t like picks it up on sites I didn’t know about until you posted them doesn’t invalidate the research either.

  65. lilady says:

    You are quite welcome for the Pubmed citation from Dr. Peter Aaby’s latest article. I think WilliamLawrenceUtridge did a superb job of analyzing it for you.

    One of Sarah’s first statements was about the seven studies done by Dr. Aaby’s group in Guinea Bissau and where his group reported serious “deleterious” events following DPT vaccination. The WHO analyzed Dr. Aaby’s group’s seven studies and found that they were, to be kind, lacking in study design and study execution with serious confounding factors. Furthermore Dr. Aaby’s seven studies yielded nothing…certainly not credible information about the DPT vaccination program in Guinea Bissau:

    http://www.who.int/vaccine_safety/topics/dtp/taskforce_report.pdf

  66. WilliamLawrenceUtridge says:

    we know that peer review that is funded by the people who make the vaccine is largely ghost written. If you continue to quote these fantasy documents as some kind of fact it’s going to turn into a ping pong of I said she said you said.

    Certain journals and articles have, in the peer reviewed literature, been criticized by doctors, researchers and other experts for being ghostwritten, overselling the benefits and minimizing the risks. What you are ignoring is that it was the medical and research community that noticed these issues, flagged them, criticized them, exposed to them to scrutiny, publicized and called for more oversight and more critical examination of claims based on data provided by companies. The peer review system is not perfect, and nobody said it was. It’s quite criticized, and suggestions have been made to change it. But peer review and the related literature is what uncovers these sorts of things – not Joseph Mercola, not NVIC, not Jenny McCarthy. Finding single examples within the very literature you’re criticizing only proves that doctors and researcher are not only aware of these problems, they are trying to expose and correct them. Sounds like the worst conspiracy ever.

    I also don’t think most peer review is “funded”, I believe it’s mostly done on an anonymous volunteer basis.

    I love the possibly dangerous, and the idea that the supplement of vitamins is the suspect. All highly speclative and considering the DPT in this report says it may be dangerous have you noticed any changes to the child vaccine schedule to reflect this or is it business as usual.

    So now that the paper you are citing as proof that vaccines dangerous actually says something much more nuanced (and in some cases quite opposite), suddenly you can’t trust it? That suggests that you are not basing your conclusions on a neutral and careful review of the evidence – that suggests that you already have your conclusions and don’t want to change them.

    As for vitamins being the suspect – vitamins are not a universal panacea. Vitamin A and D are acutely toxic in large enough doses. They have specific biochemical effects. The paper is calling for a review of how vitamin A given at birth (which has unarguable benefits to the baby) can be safely combined with a vaccine to prevent three dangerous diseases. In fact, the criticisms of the vaccine that you were so quick to proclaim when linking to the abstract, are not nearly so clear and the ultimate conclusion is a call for more research. We know vaccines prevent dangerous diseases. If we are learning that they are presenting increased risks for certain populations, then we will change the vaccination schedule or the actual vaccine as we have in the past (such as with the live versus killed polio vaccines, or the whole cell versus acellular pertussis vaccine). Again, science bases its conclusions on evidence, not the other way around. Zealots, religious fanatics and conspiracy theorists on the other hand, will lie, deceive and distort evidence so they never have to change their conclusions, no matter how many times it is pointed out that they are wrong. It’s confirmation bias at work; faced with the choice between “I was wrong (and therefore stupid)” and “everyone else was wrong (and therefore I am smart)”, some people will swallow their pride, admit they were wrong, and change their minds. Others are too caught up in justifying their choices to ever admit that they made a mistake.

    Just about everywhere Willy darling, just because someone you don’t like picks it up on sites I didn’t know about until you posted them doesn’t invalidate the research either.

    Can you provide me with an example of a website or non-scholarly source that reported fraudulent data before the peer-reviewed press did? I can, Brian Deer. If you can’t, if all you can do is point to Joe Mercola citing BMJ for their work in pointing out that Big Pharma distorts their data, all you’re pointing out is the hypocrisy of citing and criticizing the peer reviewed press when it suits you, and ignoring it when it doesn’t.

  67. WilliamLawrenceUtridge says:

    Lilady, Aaby’s actual paper (which you can find online if you google it) is pretty good about admitting it’s suggestive rather than conclusive. It’s a call for more specific research to guide us towards the safest postnatal care and vaccination scheduel rather than a call for the DPT vaccine to be withdrawn. It’s short, readable, nuanced and interesting, and discusses the WHO’s own review of data (but I’m not sure about the timing). It’s quite reasonable and suggests that the area is complicated; not being an expert in the area, I can’t say if their conclusions are valid or not.

  68. Chris says:

    WLU:

    The paper is not “all vaccines are evil”, it is “the DTP vaccine may require special treatment or possible elimination – for girls”. Even for DTP, the only vaccine that is possibly dangerous, the recommendation is to examine specific schedules of vaccination, and a new vaccine, not it’s elimination.

    And the paper only applies to the dire living situation in both living standard and climate of Guinea-Bissau. It has no bearing on the use of DTaP, Tdap, or DTaP-IPV in North America and Europe. Using Aaby’s work as a way to demonize vaccines in industrialized nations is the ultimate form of cherry picking.

  69. lilady says:

    Here is a recent article (February 12, 2012), about Mercola’s continuous, unabated attacks on vaccines. Notice how he uses the seven poorly constructed and poorly conducted studies in Guinea Bissau and other extraneous (and dis-proven) news stories to advance his own junk science. Notice also, how he liberally quotes AoA…his partner in the destruction of faith of our public health system:

    http://healthimpactnews.com/2011/studies-show-vaccinated-infants-have-twice-the-mortality-rate-compared-to-unvaccinated-infants/

    Nice choice of heroes…Sarah.

  70. WilliamLawrenceUtridge says:

    Wonder if those studies compared vaccinated/unvaccinated versus when dyptheria, tetanus and pertussis are rampant and unvaccinated. If 1/1000 kids die from the vaccine but 10/1000 die of dyptheria, tetanus and pertussis when vaccines are not widely used, use of the vaccine is still warranted – but needs improvement. Again, like what happened with acellular versus whole-cell pertussis vaccines, or live versus killed polio vaccines.

  71. Chris says:

    lilady, Mercola and friends are welcome to go live in Guinea-Bissau with only the average income of the general populace, being a country (from its wiki page) that is “The country’s per-capita gross domestic product is one of the lowest in the world.” It also says:

    Guinea-Bissau’s GDP per capita is one of the lowest in the world, and its Human Development Index is also one of the lowest on earth. More than two-thirds of the population lives below the poverty line. The economy depends mainly on agriculture; fish, cashew nuts and ground nuts are its major exports. A long period of political instability has resulted in depressed economic activity, deteriorating social conditions, and increased macroeconomic imbalances.

    Using that country as a measure on vaccine use for any stable industrialized country in North America, Asia and Europe, and even Australia is blatant cherry-picking. It is actually a form of a lie.

    Sarah, please tell us exactly why if thimerosal is still a big threat, why Sallie Bernard of SafeMinds had trouble find versions of the DTaP with it?

  72. lilady says:

    @ Chris & WLU: Here is the WHO website for Guinea Bissau. Note the early childhood deaths (almost 20%) and the links to immunization and cases of vaccine-preventable diseases, in recent years. In spite of political unrest, the extreme poverty and malnutrition that exists in Guinea Bissau, the number of confirmed vaccine-preventable disease cases and deaths reported by the WHO, is remarkably low…and proves that the immunization program REALLY works:

    http://www.who.int/countries/gnb/en/

  73. Chris says:

    Sarah, since you are hanging around a bit. Do you mind telling us if thimerosal is still so ubiquitous in vaccines, why Sallie Bernard of SafeMinds had trouble finding some eleven years ago?

  74. sarah007 says:

    William said “I also don’t think most peer review is “funded”, I believe it’s mostly done on an anonymous volunteer basis.”

    Well you can believe what you like William, I thought with science we should know and you displaying all you need is to believe says a lot about your criteria for evidence standards.

    “We know vaccines prevent dangerous diseases.” No we don’t, you believe they do.

    “Zealots, religious fanatics and conspiracy theorists on the other hand, will lie, deceive and distort evidence so they never have to change their conclusions, no matter how many times it is pointed out that they are wrong. It’s confirmation bias at work; faced with the choice between “I was wrong (and therefore stupid)” and “everyone else was wrong (and therefore I am smart)”, some people will swallow their pride, admit they were wrong, and change their minds. Others are too caught up in justifying their choices to ever admit that they made a mistake.”

    Put vaccine manufacturers in the title and it says it all, or swine flu pandemic, you choose.

    “Can you provide me with an example of a website or non-scholarly source that reported fraudulent data before the peer-reviewed press did? I can, Brian Deer.”

    That’s easy, Brian is a Murdoch journalist, Murdoch has family on the board of SKB and on medical peer review boards which came out in the recent phone hacking saga, so he’s hardly an independant man.

    “It’s a call for more specific research to guide us towards the safest postnatal care and vaccination scheduel rather than a call for the DPT vaccine to be withdrawn.”

    There we go, better review the schedule rather than admit the vaccine is dangerous.

    Chris said “And the paper only applies to the dire living situation in both living standard and climate of Guinea-Bissau. It has no bearing on the use of DTaP, Tdap, or DTaP-IPV in North America and Europe.”

    Absolutely, the reason the vaccine ‘works’ in North America and Europe but is dangerous in Africa is because it doesn’t work, if it ‘protected’ everyone there would be no difference.

    Lilady said “poorly constructed and poorly conducted studies in Guinea Bissau” funny how all the studies dissing vaccines are poorly constructed and poorly conducted.

  75. lilady says:

    Sarah…I left a “message” for you at the Mercola blog.

    How about haunting another website. I suggest Mercola.com or Age of Autism (which you claim you have no knowledge of).

    BTW Sarah, once you finish your GED courses, you should really think about taking some courses:

    Reading Comprehension

    Scientific Studies Reading Comprehension

    Human Anatomy and Physiology

    Immunology/Vaccines

    Epidemiology

    Statistics

    Try to get a passing grade in these subjects…just maybe we might suggest some other suitable courses for you.

  76. Harriet Hall says:

    Sarah,

    Please tell me which journals are paying for peer review and how much, so I can demand the same pay from the next journal that asks me to serve as a peer reviewer. All the peer-reviewing I’ve ever been associated with has been unpaid and anonymous. Apparently I’ve been missing out on big bucks. I’ve somehow missed out on those Big Pharma payments too.

  77. Chris says:

    Sarah, why did Sallie Bernard of SafeMinds have to ask people to help her find DTaP vaccines with thimerosal in 2001? Is there a reason you refuse to answer this simple question?

    Absolutely, the reason the vaccine ‘works’ in North America and Europe but is dangerous in Africa is because it doesn’t work, if it ‘protected’ everyone there would be no difference.

    Again you are showing your lack of reading ability. You missed the bit about the economic and social issues in that country. And the paper actually did not say the DTP was dangerous. And even so, it makes no sense to compare it to the DTaP, Tdap, DTaP-IPV used elsewhere.

    By the way, I spent eight years of my youth living in the tropics (South and Central America). Economics and social issues are a very important component of general health. Both countries I lived in did much better than Guinea-Bissau, and still are much healthier places to live. Even though they are both within fifteen degrees of the equator.

    Let us look of some of the statistics of Guinea-Bissau from the CIA World Factbook:

    Maternal mortality rate:
    1,000 deaths/100,000 live births (2008)
    country comparison to the world: 4
    Infant mortality rate:
    total: 94.4 deaths/1,000 live births
    country comparison to the world: 6
    male: 104.25 deaths/1,000 live births
    female: 84.26 deaths/1,000 live births (2012 est.)
    Life expectancy at birth:
    total population: 49.11 years
    country comparison to the world: 220
    male: 47.16 years
    female: 51.11 years (2012 est.)

    Major infectious diseases:
    degree of risk: very high
    food or waterborne diseases: bacterial and protozoal diarrhea, hepatitis A, and typhoid fever
    vectorborne diseases: malaria and yellow fever
    water contact disease: schistosomiasis
    animal contact disease: rabies (2009)
    Children under the age of 5 years underweight:
    17.2% (2008)
    country comparison to the world: 44
    Education expenditures:
    NA
    Literacy:
    definition: age 15 and over can read and write
    total population: 42.4%
    male: 58.1%
    female: 27.4% (2003 est.)
    School life expectancy (primary to tertiary education):
    total: 9 years (2006)

    Now the countries I have lived in:

    Maternal mortality rate:
    68 deaths/100,000 live births (2008)
    country comparison to the world: 86
    Infant mortality rate:
    total: 20.18 deaths/1,000 live births
    country comparison to the world: 96
    male: 23.65 deaths/1,000 live births
    female: 16.54 deaths/1,000 live births (2012 est.)
    Life expectancy at birth:
    total population: 74.08 years
    country comparison to the world: 110
    male: 70.98 years
    female: 77.34 years (2012 est.)
    ….
    Major infectious diseases:
    degree of risk: high
    food or waterborne diseases: bacterial diarrhea
    vectorborne disease: dengue fever and malaria (2009)
    Children under the age of 5 years underweight:
    3.7% (2007)
    country comparison to the world: 96
    Education expenditures:
    3.7% of GDP (2007)
    country comparison to the world: 112
    Literacy:
    definition: age 15 and over can read and write
    total population: 93%
    male: 93.3%
    female: 92.7% (2001 census)
    School life expectancy (primary to tertiary education):
    total: 14 years

    And now the other country:
    Maternal mortality rate:
    71 deaths/100,000 live births (2008)
    country comparison to the world: 84
    Infant mortality rate:
    total: 11.32 deaths/1,000 live births
    country comparison to the world: 137
    male: 12.09 deaths/1,000 live births
    female: 10.52 deaths/1,000 live births (2012 est.)
    Life expectancy at birth:
    total population: 77.96 years
    country comparison to the world: 56
    male: 75.18 years
    female: 80.86 years (2012 est.)

    Major infectious diseases:
    degree of risk: intermediate
    food or waterborne diseases: bacterial diarrhea
    vectorborne disease: dengue fever and malaria (2009)
    Children under the age of 5 years underweight:
    3.9% (2008)
    country comparison to the world: 94
    Education expenditures:
    3.8% of GDP (2008)
    country comparison to the world: 110
    Literacy:
    definition: age 15 and over can read and write
    total population: 91.9%
    male: 92.5%
    female: 91.2% (2000 census)
    School life expectancy (primary to tertiary education):
    total: 13 years
    male: 13 years
    female: 14 years (2008)

    ………………………………….
    There you go, two tropical countries that are just across the Atlantic Ocean from Guinea-Bissau. How do they compare? Now can you tell us why we should compare Guinea-Bissau to the USA?

  78. WilliamLawrenceUtridge says:

    Well you can believe what you like William, I thought with science we should know and you displaying all you need is to believe says a lot about your criteria for evidence standards.

    I’ve read up on peer review to a small extent, and I’ve never seen payment mentioned. Do you have any proof that peer review is a reimbursed activity? All you need is a medical journal that discusses the pay rates for peer reviewers.

    “We know vaccines prevent dangerous diseases.” No we don’t, you believe they do.

    Actually it’s the other way around. We know that vaccines prevent diseases, you believe they don’t.

    Put vaccine manufacturers in the title and it says it all, or swine flu pandemic, you choose.

    The H1N1 pandemic of 2009 actually happened, but it was less dangerous than epidemiologists feared. There’s a difference between being wrong in a specific prediction, and simply making things up. While conspiracy theorists simply make up connections then assert them as true, or selectively cite and ignore information based on whether it agrees with a conclusion they already made, actual scientists attempt to synthesize the body of evidence to devise, then test hypotheses.

    That’s easy, Brian is a Murdoch journalist, Murdoch has family on the board of SKB and on medical peer review boards which came out in the recent phone hacking saga, so he’s hardly an independant man.

    That wasn’t the question, the question was whether you can find a popular source that demonstrated the impact of pharmaceutical funding on peer review before a peer reviewed journal does. Brian Deer demonstrated that Andrew Wakefield’s activities were actively deceitful and duplicitous. He supports my interpretation of the effectiveness of vaccination, not yours.

    There we go, better review the schedule rather than admit the vaccine is dangerous.

    Pertussis is dangerous, that we know for certain. It kills unambiguously. The vaccine might be dangerous, hence the need for study. Unanticipated side effects that occur in specific groups of people aren’t found in the initial clinical trials, hence the need for a postmarketing surveillance system. In other words, medicine advances based on new knowledge.

    Absolutely, the reason the vaccine ‘works’ in North America and Europe but is dangerous in Africa is because it doesn’t work, if it ‘protected’ everyone there would be no difference.

    No, we know the vaccine produces antibodies to pertussis – it works. It may interact in odd or unanticipated ways in certain populations different from the ones used in the initial clinical trials – hence the need for more study.

    Lilady said “poorly constructed and poorly conducted studies in Guinea Bissau” funny how all the studies dissing vaccines are poorly constructed and poorly conducted.

    The studies are less than optimal, and at this point can’t distinguish between a harmful effect (i.e. it actively causes deaths in girls) and a protective effect (i.e. it reduces deaths in boys). This is in a poor, war-torn country where systematic research to address complicated interactions is hard to do. Perfectly reasonable not to jump to the conclusion that one, or all vaccines aren’t safe.

  79. Chris says:

    Sarah, I am still waiting for the answer as to why Sallie Bernard of SafeMinds had trouble finding DTaP with thimerosal eleven years ago.

    Why are you ignoring this question?

  80. sarah007 says:

    Hi William, word games again “Actually it’s the other way around. We know that vaccines prevent diseases, you believe they don’t.”

    Well vaccines prevent diseases that are not there like pandemic flu, you have no evidence to disprove it either.

    “Brian Deer demonstrated that Andrew Wakefield’s activities were actively deceitful and duplicitous. He supports my interpretation of the effectiveness of vaccination, not yours.”

    Brian Deer is paid by Murdoch who has vested interests in vaccine production and he has family members on the peer reviewed medical journal board that pulled anti vaccine papers, he supports your validation of conflicts of interest throughout the vaccine support network.

    “we know the vaccine produces antibodies to pertussis – it works.” That’s an interesting idea William so if one has HIV antibodies that must mean one is protected right? or is it different? Which one is it do anti bodies protect or show we are ill?

    “This is in a poor, war-torn country where systematic research to address complicated interactions is hard to do” But I thought vaccines protected everyone Lilady, shouldn’t matter where you give them.

  81. sarah007 says:

    God, not that I am religious, but shit me not, can anyone imagine Harriet Hall reviewing anything but a shopping list!

  82. sarah007 says:

    God, not that I am religious, but shit me not, can anyone imagine Harriet Hall reviewing anything but a shopping list!

    Christ Chris: what a pile:”There you go, two tropical countries that are just across the Atlantic Ocean from Guinea-Bissau. How do they compare? Now can you tell us why we should compare Guinea-Bissau to the USA?”

    You can’t who said you can. Point is that vaccination fails more and more the closer you get to the equator, if you can’t work out why that is I can’t help you mate, you are cutting and pasting from the wrong site.

    “Using that country as a measure on vaccine use for any stable industrialized country in North America, Asia and Europe, and even Australia is blatant cherry-picking. It is actually a form of a lie.”

    Get your finger out Chris, if vaccines are to be of use they need to work with the sickest people, they don’t so what the fxxx is the point of continuing to give them. If they worked, and they don’t we would not see such a disparity in the stats in any country!

    How utterly in denial are you.

  83. lilady says:

    “This is in a poor, war-torn country where systematic research to address complicated interactions is hard to do” But I thought vaccines protected everyone Lilady, shouldn’t matter where you give them.”

    It would be nice if the troll addressed her replies to WilliamLawrenceUtridge who made that statement…however, I have provided the actual analysis of the vaccine studies conducted in Guinea Bissau and the conclusions of the WHO committee that analyzed those studies:

    http://www.who.int/vaccine_safety/topics/dtp/taskforce_report.pdf

    If the troll, could manage to read the 16 specific findings of the WHO committee and if the troll had a basic understanding of the social conditions that exist in Africa…troll “might” understand the difficulties inherent in comparing vaccination programs in Africa versus vaccination programs in the United States and other developed nations.

  84. Chris says:

    Sarah, I am still waiting for the answer as to why Sallie Bernard of SafeMinds had trouble finding DTaP with thimerosal eleven years ago.

  85. lilady says:

    “…..But I thought vaccines protected everyone Lilady, shouldn’t matter where you give them.”

    I suggest that the troll read this article carefully, including the section “Measles Case Fatalities Ratios”.

    http://www.plosmedicine.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pmed.0040024

    Measles Case Fatality Ratios

    Measles case fatality ratios vary depending upon the average age of infection, the nutritional status of the population, measles vaccine coverage, and access to health care. In developed countries, less than one in 1,000 children with measles die. But in endemic areas in sub-Saharan Africa, the measles case fatality ratio often ranges from 5%–10%.

    Measles is a major cause of child death in refugee camps and in internally displaced populations, and case fatality ratios in children in complex emergencies have been as high as 20%–30%. For example, during a famine in Ethiopia, measles alone or in combination with wasting accounted for 22% of 159 deaths among children younger than five years of age, and 17% of 72 deaths among children aged five to 14 years [6].

    The risk of death following measles is highest at extremes of age and in those with underlying malnutrition and vitamin A deficiency. Exposure to an index case within the household may result in more severe disease, perhaps because of transmission of a larger inoculum of virus [7].

  86. weing says:

    “…..But I thought vaccines protected everyone Lilady, shouldn’t matter where you give them.”

    It’s obvious that you thought wrong. And you continue to do so.

  87. Narad says:

    Point is that vaccination fails more and more the closer you get to the equator, if you can’t work out why that is I can’t help you mate, you are cutting and pasting from the wrong site.

    How are the numbers on the effectiveness of Natural Hygiene versus latitude, just by the by?

  88. sarah007 says:

    “Exposure to an index case within the household may result in more severe disease, perhaps because of transmission of a larger inoculum of virus”

    There we go again, exposure may, and perhaps. Where is the science in this?

    Lilady said “The risk of death following measles is highest at extremes of age and in those with underlying malnutrition and vitamin A deficiency.”

    So no mention of ‘not vaccinated there’, it’s the nutritional status that is the most important and that goes for general health too.

    Thanks for posting that, QED

  89. sarah007 says:

    Lilady, tell us what you ate today for breakfast, lunch and last evenings meal.

  90. sarah007 says:

    Chris, because it’s obvious.

  91. lilady says:

    ““Exposure to an index case within the household may result in more severe disease, perhaps because of transmission of a larger inoculum of virus”

    And….

    “There we go again, exposure may, and perhaps. Where is the science in this?”

    Gee Troll, why don’t you familiarize yourself with the basics of measles case surveillance. It’s a bit more complicated than what your limited simple-minded illogical thinking processes can handle. You might want to take some (very) basic science courses, after you complete your GED and it would require an actual university-conferred degree. See how “easy” it is to “qualify” as an epidemiologist?:

    http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/surv-manual/chpt07-measles.html

    If you have any further questions Troll…I’ll be happy to answer them.

  92. sarah007 says:

    Lilady, what did you eat today?

  93. sarah007 says:

    Wong you’re weing again “It’s obvious that you thought wong. And you continue to do so.”

    What do you think, I hope you’re not a doctor.

  94. Chris says:

    Sarah, in reply to why SafeMinds could not find DTaP vaccine with thimerosal eleven years ago:

    Chris, because it’s obvious.

    This answer can interpreted two ways:

    1. Because the thimerosal was not as prevalent in vaccines over a decade ago, and not really an issue today, and continuing to harp on it is foolish.

    2. She refuses to answer because it would make her earlier statements sound as stupid as they were. For example:

    Should I mention the magic mercury in it? Apparently it’s completely safe, but hang on presence of mercury over 50 parts per million is toxic waste! Magic vaccines, how do they do it?

  95. WilliamLawrenceUtridge says:

    Some comments:

    There’s mountains of proof that vaccines prevent diseases, pretending it doesn’t exist doesn’t make it stop existing. On the broadest leve, the elimination of smallpox (and near elimination of polio) demonstrate the effectiveness of vaccines.

    You can’t compare HIV to other diseases (strictly speaking you can’t compare most diseases to each other, but HIV is particularly different). It’s derived from our recent common ancestors, who have experienced selection pressure to accomodate the simian equivalent virus. Efforts to produce a successful vaccine for HIV have to date failed, and it’s unusual in two ways – it actually hides inside immune cells, and selectively targets them. Only by ignoring these realities can one pretend that having antibodies to HIV is the same thing as being protected against HIV.

    Vaccines are not universally protective, and this is well known. That’s what makes herd immunity so important – those most vulnerable often have the least benefits from them.

    Science always deals with “may” and “perhaps” because science exists in the real world where absolutes are hard to come by. Zealots with no connection to reality often deal with absolutes (as do the Sith!) and I agree it’s much easier to live in a world where there is right or wrong with no in between. It’s a shame we don’t live in such a world. I’d love to live a life where I never get sick, obese, develop cancer or die – but that’s not possible. It’d also be nice to have unlimited research funding. And flying cars! But wishing the world were different does not make it different.

  96. sarah007 says:

    (“and near elimination of polio) demonstrate the effectiveness of vaccines”. William, darling renaming polio as asceptic meningitis was a smart move, also on diagnosis guidelines you can’t diagnose polio in someone who has polio if they have a positive vaccine status, you have to call it the former!

    So you need to point out that the near elimination of polio is more about semantics than facts.

    So come on Lilady you tell us what you ate today so that we can see if your diet might be part of the reason for your problem.

    Hey Chris do you remember the story about Nelson at trafalger saying he could see no ships and he had his telescope up to his blind eye?

  97. Narad says:

    also on diagnosis guidelines you can’t diagnose polio in someone who has polio if they have a positive vaccine status, you have to call it the former!

    That is some powerful stupid you’ve got rolling, snowflake. Now perhaps you could tell everyone about food-combining.

  98. Harriet Hall says:

    I’ve even heard a germ theory denialist claim that smallpox had not been eliminated but was merely being re-classified as chickenpox! I tried to explain that we can SEE smallpox and chickenpox virus particles under an electron microscope and they look very different, and that we had sequenced the viral genome. She insisted that we were only looking at “cellular debris.” True believers try to rationalize any evidence away: the depth of ignorance is hard to believe.

  99. sarah007 says:

    Harriet said “True believers try to rationalize any evidence away: the depth of ignorance is hard to believe.”

    Yes some people still believe in the swine flu pandemic and actually took untested meds! I suppose fear sells more than newspapers, funny how most ordinary people had more sense than all those medical septics!

    Who needs the NIH to tell us what to do with that kind of result, Mercola was right from the beginning with that and the information was freely availible, like it or lump it.

  100. sarah007 says:

    Did you know that currently the number one cause of polio in India is the vaccine.

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