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The Huffington Post’s War On Science

It is unfortunately a common human reaction to respond to criticism by attacking those leveling the criticism, rather than addressing the points being made. This is especially true if the criticism is legitimate and one cannot reasonably counter it.

Substantive criticism is also a central part of the scientific endeavor, and so the culture of science has developed a tolerance for harsh criticism and a general understanding that the only proper response is with logic and evidence. Examples of exceptions are legion, human frailty being what it is, but you cannot live in the world of science for long without learning the rules of the game. Peers are expected to pull no punches when criticizing the errors or countering the arguments of their colleagues. Everyone is expected to be their own harshest critic (criticize your own data before someone has a chance to). And when criticized yourself, acknowledge what is legitimate and make appropriate corrections, but feel free to defend yourself against weak criticisms by pointing out additional data, interpretations, or errors in the arguments of your critics.

This meat grinder approach to scientific discourse works.  Slowly, bad ideas and claims are beaten down, and only good ideas have the stamina to persist.

But here at science-based medicine we engage not only with the scientific community, but also with the public, and with those on the fringes of science. This means we often engage with those who do not play by the rules of science. A recent example is that of J.B. Handley from Age of Autism. David Gorski and I (and later Mark Crislip) wrote blog entries criticizing their 14 studies website with a detailed analysis. Handley responded with a full frontal personal assault sprinkled with irrelevant accusations. He ignored the vast majority of our actual criticisms, and those few he took on he completely botched.

Sometimes the targets of scientific criticism respond with another tactic – the diversion. Rather than make an obvious ad hominem attack, they try to distract the public (often the real target of the exchange) from the points of the criticism with a series of non sequiturs. They try to “re-frame” the discussion to make it about something other than the scientific evidence.

Creationists recently have been masters of this latter tactic. On scientific grounds, there is no debate about evolution. The overwhelming majority of the scientific community agrees that evolution happened, there is common descent, and natural selection is a dominant mechanism. Creationists cannot win this fight scientifically (though they keep trying), and so they try to distract from the science by trying to make it a political debate. So they accuse scientists of being dogmatic, of trying to exclude creationists from the debate, or for unfairly eliminating supernatural explanations from consideration. First they tried “teach the (fake) controversy,” and now they are trying “teach the strengths and (fake) weaknesses” of evolution.

Those who promote unscientific claims in medicine are no different. When scientists bother to examine their claims and level the sort of criticism typical of the scientific community at them, they often respond with some combination of personal attacks and distraction. Last week I criticised the Huffington Post for running a series of blogs and articles that are promoting dangerously pseudoscientific medical claims. I specifically commented on an outrageous article by Kim Evans, promoting the absurd claim that all cancers are caused by fungal infections, which in turn are caused by antibiotics. Evans has responded (sort of) with this week’s column, in which she addresses her critics, without naming anyone in particular.

Her response is right out of the pseudoscientific health claim play book, under “how to distract from legitimate criticism with logical fallacies and misdirection.” We have literally heard it all before, and have even answered much of it in detail. I will therefore not reiterate points that have been made before but will link to them.

She begins:

In a recent post I got a lot of flack for not speaking like a scientist. Something in that rubs me the wrong way because it presumes that only by a very narrow method can we come to any valid conclusions or make any new discoveries about the world we live in – while also presuming that only a tiny portion of the population, with a very specific set of skills and communication methods, has the ability to do so.

Here she is combing two common tactics – the claim that her critics are being elitist and that science it too narrow to encompass her wisdom (and she goes much further on these themes in the following paragraphs). Rather, she was criticized for promoting a dangerous health scam and not even attempting to justify it with anything resembling acceptable scientific evidence. In response to this criticism she did not either acknowledge the lack of evidence or provide references to such evidence – instead she “reframed” the criticism as being equivalent to saying that she is not in the club – an obvious appeal to elitism. (Handley, by the way, pulled the exact same ploy.)

She might as well have written that we were trying to “expel” her from the scientific discussion, because what she is doing is exactly the same as the Intelligent Design proponents tactics used in the movie by that name.

First she states that she was criticized for not behaving like a scientist, then she states, essentially, that science is not all its cracked up to be anyway.  At least she is being openly anti-science.

This attitude derives from the premise that the methods of science are optional – just one way of knowing how nature works. This is, in my opinion, the core of the struggle between science-based medicine and everything else.  But which rules of science, I wonder, would Evans recommend we abandon when it suits us? Should we ignore inconvenient evidence rather than take a systematic approach, use ambiguous criteria that are susceptible to bias, or not control for confounding variables?

There is nothing magical or arbitrary about the methods of science – they are merely careful observation and intellectual honesty rigorously applied.  To say this is a “narrow” approach is to misunderstand science or a deliberate distraction.

Next she launches into the toxin gambit:

A study in 2005 found that newborns are being born with literally hundreds of chemicals in their bloodstream, many of them known to cause cancer. Most people eat pesticides and herbicides in their every meal. I don’t need to tell you that these substances are designed to kill living organisms, because you already know that, but might I remind you that you, too, are a living organism. Rocket fuel has been found in milk. Drugs and birth control have been found in the water.

The only evidence she provides to support her claims is a link to a Newsweek article.  This is acceptable form in general for a blog, but does not do much to bolster her claims. The referenced article does site several studies that found detectable levels of various chemicals in the general population, but it also cites two NIH reviews of this data. The first found that there was little cause for concern, and the second that, based on animal data, there may be cause for concern and further study is necessary.  This hardly supports the alarm bell Evans is ringing.

First, this does not have anything to do with the criticisms of her original article, which was about antibiotics and cancer. But that aside, her hysterical warnings about toxins, like most health care pseudoscience, has a kernel of truth. There are toxins in the environment, and it is plausible that some of them may reach levels that have health effects. We should be eternally vigilant about what substances we put into our environment and our bodies and monitor their health effects.

On the other hand – toxicity is always about dose. Most substances decried as toxins are in such low doses that they likely do not have any health effects. For some we do need more evidence, and maybe even changes in policy. This is likely to be forever a moving target as technology and industry advances. Policy should be based on evidence – not vague fears.

Also, her use of the word “chemical” is misleading. The environment is loaded with naturally-occurring chemicals. We are made of chemicals. It is not enough to say that chemicals exist in our environment.

And keep in mind all of this is to promote her health claims – that cleansing toxins has health benefits. That is an entirely separate claim that is not supported by evidence or much plausibility.

Next up is the claim that doctors and mainstream medicine kill patients.

So, while all of this looms and is largely unaccounted for in the standard health care equation, critics judge harshly alternative views and hail a system that’s been found to kill almost 200,000 people a year due to preventable errors. The same system has been found to kill another 100,000 annually with drugs, and seriously harm another 2.1 million each year by the same means. They hail “proven” methods for cancer that are known to cause significant damage to the immune system, and are even known to be carcinogenic, which means to cause cancer. So, I ask, “Is this rational?”

Harriet Hall has already dealt with this claim.  First, it is a tu quoque logical fallacy. We all want better safer medicine. Failing to meet that goal in one arena does not justify pseudoscience in another. Further, these numbers are highly misleading (and almost certainly overstated) because they only consider the harm of intervention. But medical decision-making is about risk vs benefit. We need to know if the interventions in question save more people than they harm.

The standard in mainstream medicine is that each intervention should be backed by high quality evidence that its benefits outweigh its risks. Further, we are always trying to minimize risk whenever possible. And the principle of informed consent dictates that we give that information to patients and let them decide if the benefits outweigh the risks for them. Evan’s claimed treatments do not meet that standard, but she tries to distract from that criticism with the above non sequitur.

She concludes:

Oh wait, that’s exactly where we are now… So, in light of the numbers above and all of the proof that’s literally walking around next to us, maybe it’s time we started looking at and thinking about things a little differently. Because if a reliance on proven demonstrated science has gotten us exactly to the situation I describe above, perhaps a shift of focus to rational is the best move we can make.

Many of the commenters for this entry pointed out that science-based medicine has doubled the human life expectancy – that is also part of the situation. But again – at least she is flying her anti-scientific flag high and proud. Evans wants us to abandon science at our whim, certainly long enough to buy her book. She  somehow twists logic to argue that this is “rational”, but she gets there only by abusing the evidence – by exaggerating risks and ignoring benefits.

Evan’s rant, typical of those in her camp, is once again just another long rationalization for not wanting to play by the fair and honest rules of science because logic and evidence does not support her claims.

Posted in: Science and Medicine, Science and the Media

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223 Comments

  1. weing May 5, 2009

    “Who said looking at paranormal things had to be magic?’

    Uhh. You did.

    “The problem Karl is that when doing paranormal research
    you have to use a different type of science because for something of that nature requires a different approach.
    That is what people fail to understand.”

  2. David Gorski May 5, 2009

    To beat you to your next punch: no, I am not a Christian, but I can understand the mindset.

    That much has been obvious for some time, at least with regards to the mindset of the fundamentalist variety of Christian.

  3. SD May 5, 2009

    Dr. Benway:

    “You don’t need to figure out the ultimate reality of the universe to enjoy a lovely breakfast of fresh coffee, cereal with yogurt instead of milk and topped by fresh strawberries and blueberries. Yum!”

    Or, in some cases, to put the yogurt and coffee in your butt to “cleanse” it, then rub the raspberries and blueberries on your skin to “fight aging”, and to take the cereal and eat it in a capsule.

    But hey, to each their own. >;->

    “… not that there’s anything wrong with that!”
    -SD

  4. SD May 5, 2009

    Dr. Benway:

    “Ah, let the titmouse dream. A little escapism can be a kindness. But too much escapism becomes a life lived inside one’s head rather than the world. And that’s a kind of death, a very lonely kind.”

    Y’know, I liked this post. Very lyrical. Well done.

    “two thumbs up”
    -SD

  5. SD May 5, 2009

    Govorit’ Cde. Gorski:

    “That much has been obvious for some time, at least with regards to the mindset of the fundamentalist variety of Christian.”

    Ah, Comrade, you’re so clever. Of course you know that this crack opens you up for comparisons with the Taliban, right? Just sayin’. >;->

    “science-wannabe jihad! kill the infidel! alalalalalalalalalalalalala!!!!”
    -SD

  6. vargkill May 6, 2009

    weing,

    Uuuuhhhh No i did not.

    “The problem Karl is that when doing paranormal research
    you have to use a different type of science because for something of that nature requires a different approach.
    That is what people fail to understand.”

    So im sure you know that when i say “Paranormal” im not
    refering to magic tricks or anything like that. I am refering
    to spiritual aspects of the paranormal. Please tell me you
    knew that? Pretty please? **Tosses some sugar on top**
    Anyone with a brain could tell due to the nature of the conversation that that is what i meant.

    Yes yes i am well aware as to what i posted, however i am
    having trouble finding where i ever said that going outside
    of “Science” was magic. You are assuming that is what i meant
    because you are stuck thinking within the box, or that dare
    you venture outside the bunker doors that might find something
    else could maybe work.

    SD,

    Now that was some funny shit! Keep them posts coming!

  7. vargkill May 6, 2009

    Dr Benway,

    That was indeed a nice post you made.
    I kinda got a good laugh out of it.

  8. JustAsItSounds May 6, 2009

    @SD:

    “You’re right, they don’t. But the Monday-through-Friday schools do. Is it fair to demand that someone pay for a practice – instructing children in the ways of iniquity, broadly speaking, as viewed from a Christian perspective – that they find appalling and evil? Do you expect Christian parents who send their children to those schools to simply roll over and go “Okay, you can teach that, no problem!” Do you expect them to acquiesce in a program calculated to destroy the transmission of their culture to their children, and to create an environment hostile to its existence?

    Religion should be taught in religious education classes, science in science classes, end of story. Creationism and its poorly disguised twin, ID, are not science because neither propose a theory, methodology, nor means to test/falsify the hypotheses they espouse. Can you imagine an exam paper on ID?

    Q: Explain why birds do not have nipples, and mammals do not have feathers
    A: Because that is how our Lord decreed it.

    Q: How do we know that the bacterial flagellum is a designed feature?
    A: because it looks complicated and I cannot imagine how it could have evolved from pre-existing structures.

    Q: Sickle-cell aneamia is a potentially fatal genetic disease caused by a homozygous recessive gene, where both recessive alleles are inherited from both parents. Why does the Sickle-cell allele still persist in modern populations, especially those that derivve from or live in areas of the globe where malaria is prevelant?
    A: Because the Lord is a terrible and vengeful God and those afflicted undoubtedly deserve his wrath.

    3/3 – well done! Although I would have accepted Goddidit for all three.

    Or, do you expect them to get pissy, on the theory that along with paying money into this system comes a certain amount of control over its disposition? Do you expect them to pass up the chance to seize the machinery and framework provided by their enemies to go on the offensive and push their own agenda instead?”

    Need I remind you that the problem only arises because a small minority of religious zealots (the heretical, inerrant-bible type) insist that the theory of evolution is antithetical to their own wacky beliefs? Why should this small, vocal minority be allowed to ruin the education of the majority? The educators are not (on the whole) trying to destroy the beliefs of their charges, but if their beliefs are so fragile that they are so easily shattered by reality then I do not think the problem lies with reality.

    Also, you harp on about the adults rights to impress their beliefs onto their children but what about the rights of the children? Don’t they have a right to learn the truth about the world around them and come to their own conclusions with regards to religion?

  9. Dr Benway May 6, 2009

    vargkill,

    Time is tricky business. In the world of very small things like quarks, time can go backwards. In the world of very large things like planets, gravity warps time.

    Titmouse live in a middle-sized world where time seems to travel forward like an arrow through space. So we can’t wrap our heads around backwards time or warped time.

    But if it were possible to see the universe beyond our middle world, we might find that this moment you and I are sharing is actually forever.

    And so: “O death, where is thy victory? O grave, where is thy sting?”

  10. Karl Withakay May 6, 2009

    SD

    “you can harbor that belief if it please you. Free country and all that.”

    You don’t need a free country to believe what you want; you need a free country to safely express those beliefs.

    “My initial answer is a resounding “WELL, NO S–T, SHERLOCK!”, but there is a little more to it than that; I am also enumerating the hidden dynamics of these conflicts, along with the phenomena that drive them and their easiest cures. So, to that “NO S–T, SHERLOCK!”, I have to add a “… and you missed about half of the point, too!””

    Perhaps you missed my point, which was not explicitly stated, which is that as long as you don’t believe in the value of public education, a discussion with you of what is appropriate science curriculum for public education is roughly analogous to discussing whether to drive to work or take public transportation with someone who advocates living off the land in the wilderness and not having a job.

  11. Karl Withakay May 6, 2009

    vargkill,

    “Do your research, iv dont mine, go do some research on the
    subject if you have not already”

    Gee, I’ve done my research too, and have never come across any scientifically compelling evidence to support any paranormal claims.
    Now that we’ve both thrown out conflicting statements and not provided evidence to support our positions, who wins?

    “The weight of evidence for an extraordinary claim must be proportioned to its strangeness.” -Pierre-Simon Marquis de Laplace

    “when doing paranormal research you have to use a different type of science because for something of that nature requires a different approach”

    It does if you want to support paranormal claims. So do we agree that paranormal claims do not hold up to “normal” scientific rigor? Which type of science does one need to use to investigate paranormal claims?

    “You still dont know if cease to exist. Prove it to me?”

    Do you really want me to prove it, or is your point that since neither one of us can prove our point, that each position holds equal weight? (which is a non sequitor)

    You have made an extraordinary claim, that there is some sort of afterlife, without any support other than that the alternative is unthinkable. I have expressed my belief that there is no afterlife. My belief is consistent with a lack of any evidence to the contrary; if you have any evidence to the contrary, please provide it.

    “You know Karl, In my opinion i think you are a fool!”

    Oh, ouch, my pride…someone I don’t respect has called me a fool. Not since pec told me to stick me head in a pig earlier in this thread have I been so hurt..

    By the way, that’s somewhat redundant phraseology. “Would you ever think in someone else’s opinion?

  12. vargkill May 6, 2009

    Karl Withakay,

    First off, when and where in any of my posts did i make a claim
    that there is an afterlife other then i was hoping there is an
    afterlife? I never once came in here and yes there was only
    what i hoped for. I think this truly proves you are truly reading
    what i am saying because that surefire statement never pass
    my fingertips.

    “Gee, I’ve done my research too, and have never come across any scientifically compelling evidence to support any paranormal claims.
    Now that we’ve both thrown out conflicting statements and not provided evidence to support our positions, who wins”?

    No one wins. Im not trying to win because there is no way
    to win this arguement. We are 2 people with 2 different opinions hashing it out in a SBM blog. I dont think winning is
    the point, i think the point is that we can all come together
    on here and express different view points. That in itself holds
    a certain beauty. That we are that complex that we can have
    this conversation. No other life form can do what we are doing
    and that in itself is an amazing concept that makes me thing
    again, how can it all be so random? So does anyone really
    need to win? If so whats the benefit?

    “It does if you want to support paranormal claims. So do we agree that paranormal claims do not hold up to “normal” scientific rigor? Which type of science does one need to use to investigate paranormal claims”?

    Of course we agree! That is why i said the method needs
    to change. Ever hear that you cannot mesaure faith? If there
    is a “God” how could science mesaure something so powerful?
    Get my point? Do you think if i knew what science was needed
    to measure paranormal stuff i would share it with the world?
    I think we would be working on this stuff already. For all you
    know we already are and no one is saying anything to prevent
    the public on a grand scale from knowing the truth, not a far
    fetched concept if you look at who our goverment is…
    Thats a whole different conversation…

    You have made an extraordinary claim, that there is some sort of afterlife, without any support other than that the alternative is unthinkable. I have expressed my belief that there is no afterlife. My belief is consistent with a lack of any evidence to the contrary; if you have any evidence to the contrary, please provide it.

    So many unexplained paranormal stuff, Out of body expirences,
    Spirit sightings, near death expirences, people being put down
    for surgery and recalling the entire process and conversation
    from across the room, telling back to the doctors what they
    used in the sugery, and doctors being dumbfounded. This
    is the best i can do and still it proves nothing. For all you know
    Karl you might die your conscience might survive. How would
    you feel if it happend? You might remember this conversation.
    Would it not comfort you to know it could happen?

    “Oh, ouch, my pride…someone I don’t respect has called me a fool. Not since pec told me to stick me head in a pig earlier in this thread have I been so hurt”..

    Well seeing as you felt the need to defend your honor by
    not only quoting what others have said but also to make
    it known that your pride is not hurt would show that a simple
    statement evoked some kinda emotion out of you. You Dont
    need to convince me, convince yourself that your pride is not hurt.

  13. Karl Withakay May 6, 2009

    “…when and where in any of my posts did i make a claim
    that there is an afterlife other then i was hoping there is an
    afterlife? I think this truly proves you are truly reading
    what i am saying because that surefire statement never pass
    my fingertips. ”

    You know when you frequently use relatively poor grammar and don’t proof read before clicking ‘Submit Comment’, it makes it really hard to be sure if you mean to say what you said, or if you left out a word like “not” by mistake.

    If I assume correctly that you did leave out “not”, I suspect (thought I freely admit I could be wrong) that you are playing word games with that statement. The body of your statements in this blog strongly implies a belief in an afterlife. The following statement alone implies as much, “To be real honest, having the knowledge that there is
    a god and survival of conscience does bring inspiration to be a better person or to do better things in life.”

    “If there is a “God” how could science mesaure something so powerful?”

    I don’t really consider this to be a particularly good reply, but science could probably detect when the laws of physics are being violated in a random, unreproducible, and unpredictable way as to beg supernatural influence for causation.

    “That is why i said the method needs
    to change.”

    But you have not proposed any changes to the method. You’ve basically used an argument that reduces to “science doesn’t work for the paranormal, so science can’t disprove it.” You seem to either be unaware of, not understand, or are willing to ignore the various logical fallacies that are required to set science aside and believe in paranormal phenomenon, including, but not limited to, argument from ignorance, appeal to widespread belief, confirmation bias, appeal to authority, personal incredulity, burden of proof, argument from consequences, etc.

    http://skepticwiki.org/index.php/Logic_and_Logical_Fallacies(index)
    http://www.don-lindsay-archive.org/skeptic/arguments.html

    “So many unexplained paranormal stuff, Out of body expirences,
    Spirit sightings, near death expirences, people being put down
    for surgery and recalling the entire process and conversation
    from across the room, telling back to the doctors what they
    used in the sugery, and doctors being dumbfounded.”

    So many claims that have been successfully debunked or failed to stand up to to reasonable scientific scrutiny…
    Here’s a good start to near death experiences:
    http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=381
    http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=382

    “You Dont need to convince me, convince yourself that your pride is not hurt.”

    You are mistaken if you believe I need to convince myself my pride was not hurt. I wouldn’t need convince you otherwise either way; I can continue to live fine if you think I was hurt.

    I was more amused at the notion of being called a fool by someone whom I believe holds foolish beliefs, but that I do not call a fool.

  14. weing May 6, 2009

    I’ve had out of body experiences for years and they are just lucid dreams.

  15. khan May 6, 2009

    conscience – a noun

    conscious – an adjective

    consciousness – a noun
    —————————————-
    Once you get this figured out, maybe there can be a discussion.

  16. vargkill May 6, 2009

    Karl Withakay,

    Yes i do post sometimes before proof reading and i have called
    myself on it many times. No i am not playing word games, what
    i have been doing is posting my notions and sharing them
    as what ifs and opinions on how i feel of the whole thing.
    What you are doing is playing rhetorical games with words.

    What i am saying is simple… Im not sure why you cant seem
    to grasp what i am saying.

    “The body of your statements in this blog strongly implies a belief in an afterlife. The following statement alone implies as much, “To be real honest, having the knowledge that there is
    a god and survival of conscience does bring inspiration to be a better person or to do better things in life.”

    If i was trying to say that then why would i not come out
    and say it in plain english? I am saying i am hoping for an
    afterlife. Do you finally grasp that concept? Or are you really
    just that stupid? Are you picking through my posts and trying
    to find a reason to argue? That is what it seems like to me.

    “If there is a “God” how could science mesaure something so powerful?”

    “I don’t really consider this to be a particularly good reply, but science could probably detect when the laws of physics are being violated in a random, unreproducible, and unpredictable way as to beg supernatural influence for causation.”

    A good reply? What kinda reply would be good enough?
    Want me to say i know the answer and then make up some
    bullshit and post it to make you happy? Ok give me a few days
    to think of something and ill do that just for you!

    So many claims that have been successfully debunked or failed to stand up to to reasonable scientific scrutiny…

    Ok still does not address how some folks having this expirence
    recall many things they should not be able to while being passed out, such as tools, conversations, color of shoes, ect.
    Let me ask, why does the possibility of an afterlife seem to
    bother you so much? Do you find comfort knowing we might
    be gone forever one day? You see i even admit that this
    is possible.

    “I was more amused at the notion of being called a fool by someone whom I believe holds foolish beliefs, but that I do not call a fool.”

    Again my friend, when did i ever say i fully believed in anything?
    I only expressed a want, not that i thought these notions
    where fact, so try again pally! Apartently you’re not reading
    what i am saying and it shows!

    Yes i think you are a fool because you don’t listen, instead you
    like to pick apart things and try to build an ocean out of a fucking
    grain of sand, such as someone elses notion.

    “But you have not proposed any changes to the method. You’ve basically used an argument that reduces to “science doesn’t work for the paranormal, so science can’t disprove it.” You seem to either be unaware of, not understand, or are willing to ignore the various logical fallacies that are required to set science aside and believe in paranormal phenomenon, including, but not limited to, argument from ignorance, appeal to widespread belief, confirmation bias, appeal to authority, personal incredulity, burden of proof, argument from consequences, etc.”

    What am i supposed to propose? Im not a paranornal researcher, Im not a scientist, I have never tried this myself.
    What i am saying is whoever has the power to develop methods
    should go on and keep studing the paranormal. In Laymen’s
    terms, you have to think outside the box if you are going to
    prove the existence of a spirit or God or anything of that nature.
    What do you expect me to do? All i know is there are newer
    and better scientific methods being developed as time goes
    on and maybe someone will come up with something. I do have
    a basic understand of the scientific method, but i do not think
    personally that most of it can apply to something this extream.
    Im just an IT pro, thats all…

  17. vargkill May 6, 2009

    khan,

    Come on man! Add something better to the conversation!

  18. Karl Withakay May 7, 2009

    vargkill,

    “If i was trying to say that then why would i not come out
    and say it in plain english? I am saying i am hoping for an
    afterlife. Do you finally grasp that concept? Or are you really
    just that stupid? Are you picking through my posts and trying
    to find a reason to argue? That is what it seems like to me”

    I grasp the concept fine. You seem to have missed my point. I was essentially saying you are refusing clearly state your belief regarding an afterlife even though your statements heavily imply that you do believe in one. I accuse you of engaging in a disingenuous argument by refusing to take a position and instead taking what amounts to a “I’m just saying” statements that you seem to feel allow you to make statements that don’t need to be defended because they aren’t positions.

    “Again my friend, when did i ever say i fully believed in anything?
    I only expressed a want, not that i thought these notions
    where fact, so try again pally! Apartently you’re not reading
    what i am saying and it shows!”

    Word games. I never said you FULLY believed in anything. First see above before the last quote, then let’s clarify. It is possible to believe in something without being absolutely certain you are correct. Do you or do you not believe in an afterlife? Just to be clear, I’m not asking if you are absolutely sure of an afterlife, just whether you believe in one. If you prefer me to phase the question differently: Do you believe an afterlife is more likely or less likely than no afterlife.

    “Yes i think you are a fool because you don’t listen, instead you
    like to pick apart things and try to build an ocean out of a f—–g
    grain of sand, such as someone elses notion. ”

    Nice mixed metaphor: ocean out of a grain of sand, indeed.
    Non-sequitor: How can I pick apart what you say if I don’t listen to you.
    I’m not making an ocean out of a grain of sand (or a desert out of a grain of sand or a ocean out of a drop of water either), I’m claiming that you mansion is a house of cards.
    If you’re not comfortable with your positions being methodically deconstructed, construct better arguments and build them on firmer foundations.

  19. vargkill May 7, 2009

    Karl Withakay,

    “I grasp the concept fine. You seem to have missed my point. I was essentially saying you are refusing clearly state your belief regarding an afterlife even though your statements heavily imply that you do believe in one. I accuse you of engaging in a disingenuous argument by refusing to take a position and instead taking what amounts to a “I’m just saying” statements that you seem to feel allow you to make statements that don’t need to be defended because they aren’t positions.”

    What is the problem? I understand and even respect your
    point just fine Karl.

    I am not sure at this point what i believe. The whole afterlife
    thing and God for me is a “want”, not a belief. Therefor i cannot
    state my belief because i cannot be sure at this point. I only
    have a strong “want” and i never intended it to imply otherwise.
    Therefor again, i cannot really take position only that i think
    it would all seem so random and pointless otherwise. You get what im saying? I don’t need to defend my statement simply
    because that is how i feel or what i want. Im not in here
    trying to push anything i “want” as a fact.

    “Do you believe an afterlife is more likely or less likely than no afterlife.”

    I am not sure at this point in my life. Im sorry if that answer is
    not to your liking but that is the truth and i am being honest.
    Again, i would like there to be. So if you consider that to be
    “word games” then thats fine with me but never my intention.
    I don’t need to come on here to play word games, there would
    be no point in posting otherwise.

    I never really had an arguement as much as i had an opinion.

    “How can I pick apart what you say if I don’t listen to you.”

    Very simple, you can read what i post and then not really
    take it in and just find points to argue. If this was not the case
    you would fully see that what i have is “want” or a hope.

    “If you’re not comfortable with your positions being methodically deconstructed, construct better arguments and build them on firmer foundations.”

    Again Karl, and it pains me to keep saying it…
    I am expressing a want and or a hope. How can you argue
    against that? If i want or hope to win the state lottery someone
    could just say “the odds are against you!” But will that take
    away from someones hope in wanting that?

    I will say it one last time here…

    I hope and deeply want an afterlife because it would make
    more sense to me as to why life is so complex.

    I am unsure what i believe only what i hope for.

    You believe there is not a god or afterlife and i fully respect that.

    What is left to argue?

  20. Karl Withakay May 7, 2009

    varkill,
    I fail to see how an afterlife would explain why life was so complex. (Life meaning either the human condition or biological life in general, being either literally or metaphorically complex) I could see how the existence of a god could help with that.

    I want there to be an afterlife too. Not because it would make more sense to me, or give any additional meaning to this life; it would simply be comforting to believe that death wouldn’t be the end of existence. Unfortunately, I don’t have any reason to believe in or have hope for an afterlife beyond that I’d really like for there to be one. All the evidence I can find either points to the contrary or isn’t there, and thus it seems unlikely to me.

    I’d also like there to be some sort of supreme being out there who has even the slightest passing interest in my or anyone else’s well being and has the ability to influence the universe to our benefit. Again I don’t see any reason to believe or have any hope that there is one, and all the evidence I can find points to the contrary, or isn’t there, and this also seems unlikely to me.

    hope:
    –noun
    1. the feeling that what is wanted can be had or that events will turn out for the best: to give up hope.
    2. a particular instance of this feeling: the hope of winning.
    3. grounds for this feeling in a particular instance: There is little or no hope of his recovery.
    4. a person or thing in which expectations are centered: The medicine was her last hope.
    5. something that is hoped for: Her forgiveness is my constant hope.
    –verb (used with object)
    6. to look forward to with desire and reasonable confidence.
    7. to believe, desire, or trust: I hope that my work will be satisfactory.
    –verb (used without object)
    8. to feel that something desired may happen: We hope for an early spring.
    9. Archaic. to place trust; rely (usually fol. by in).
    —Idiom
    10. hope against hope, to continue to hope, although the outlook does not warrant it: We are hoping against hope for a change in her condition.

    All these definitions imply some degree of confidence, belief or trust, unless you use def 7 excluding the possibility of the words other than desire,as in “to desire”. Perhaps you can see how your use of the word hope could have caused someone to infer some degree of certainty, belief, or confidence even if one was not implied or intended.

    I can readily accept that you don’t know what you believe in regards to the probability of an afterlife, but find it difficult to accept that you don’t have the slightest leaning one way or another given you comments about what no afterlife would mean to you.

    No commitment is required, just a leaning- no opinion with a feather’s more weight one way or the other?

    I press the issue on the question which I acknowledge you have already answered because your statements to the effect that you find the thought of no afterlife would make life meaningless and depressing suggest that if you don’t consider life meaningless and depressing, you have a leaning towards a belief in an afterlife, and I am seeking clarification.

  21. vargkill May 7, 2009

    Karl Withakay,

    Ok Karl im glad you are able to tell me what i really think.
    I think perhaps you could call Randy and win that Million dollars!

    What you are doing is digging to deep into what i am saying.
    I didn’t think i was being to linear with what i posted but i guess
    being simplistic was tooooooo subtle for you perhaps? You are
    an educated man and anyone who reads SBM can clearly see
    that, but what gets me is how i cannot explain something so
    simple as to where i am coming from without you having to make
    it a bigger issue then it really is.

    I do not know what i believe at this point and nothing i have
    posted should give you that impression. I think i made it clear
    what i meant in what i posted and if you decided to interpret
    it in your own way then that is on you.

    “No commitment is required, just a leaning- no opinion with a feather’s more weight one way or the other?”

    No Karl, im directly in the middle. I know that bothers you
    but im not going to tilt just to make you happy.

    So we agree that an afterlife would be nice and a god would
    be nice. Ok so we found some common ground.

  22. Karl Withakay May 7, 2009

    vargkill,
    I don’t recall ever telling you what you really thought. I said that I find it difficult to accept that you have no slightest leaning one way or another in regards to an afterlife. I was seeking to clarify if you had a leaning that was perhaps so slight that you were not comfortable with expressing it.

    So, I’ll ask a slightly different question because I’d really like to understand your thought process. You have expressed how worrisome and troubling the thought of no afterlife is, and how consoling and reassuring the though of the existence of an afterlife is.

    The last time I asked, I approached the question with the assumption that you do not consider life to be possibly meaningless; do you assign equal probability to life being pointless as you do to it not being pointless? Does your hope and despair exactly balance out? (This is an honest question.)

    While I don’t consider the concept of no afterlife to make life meaningless, I personally would find that balance far more troubling than the concept of a pointless life. At least once you’ve made your decision on whether life is meaningful or not, you have a point to move on from.

  23. vargkill May 7, 2009

    Karl Withakay,

    My problem is i do not know what i believe in. Im kinda stuck
    right now as far as that goes. Most people at some point have
    probably gone through this very thing of not knowing and the
    worst part of it is that there really is no way to know. As far
    as i am concerned we can only go by what we can see and feel
    or prove and disprove.

    “The last time I asked, I approached the question with the assumption that you do not consider life to be possibly meaningless; do you assign equal probability to life being pointless as you do to it not being pointless? Does your hope and despair exactly balance out? (This is an honest question.)”

    That is a good question. I can only assign myself to living day by day until i find the truth for myself. If i knew for a fact that life
    was just one big coincidence i would find that to be troubling,
    the flip side to that is if i knew there was an afterlife i would
    feel much better. Some folks might refer to this as an existential crisis or something of that nature.

    I guess that is just how it is put on the table in my head.
    No afterlife, pointless life. Afterlife, meaningful life. Yet i am in between.

    I have personally exprienced some paranormal things in my life.
    One noteably being my run in with Mr Wu whom we talked about
    on the CAM thingy. Im sure you remember. Other then that there are other things from when i was younger that i do not
    see there being any logical explination for which im not sure
    if going into detail on that would be a good idea right now.
    But still is not enough to answer the underlaying issue here.