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114 thoughts on “The Swiss Report on Homeopathy

  1. pmoran says:

    Rustic: No, ..neither should the government allow people to have their brains burned out (sophisticated machinery or not), or take chemically poisoned medicines..that have proven to kill 100′s of 1000′s each year.

    Oh, Rustic, friend, do grow up. It is likely that even while this planet is being frizzled up by our own personal red giant of a star, or whatever, there will be spoiled three hundred year-old brats complaining that medicine is not doing enough or not doing it right.

    Within conventional medical practice there are thousands of separate therapeutic settings, in a few of which the benefits of treatment may only marginally outweigh the risks, but do try and find one where overall benefit has not been established in clinical studies and/or where any “alternative” method is likely to perform better on solid evidence.

    I understand that you find it galling that we might go on about the risks of CAM, and I think some skeptics do overemphasize them, but as others have tried to point out to you ALL of medicine is a cost/risk/benefit affair. When benefits are unclear, risks loom large, including those of missing out on more reliable treatments.

    Give us a chance — a mere century or so ago medicine was only just hauling itself out of its dark ages. “Alternative” medicine may yet find better answers to some problems, but it won’t unless it also learns how to separate the wheat from the chaff.

  2. pmoran…ok, perhaps, I am sometimes too defensive, …maybe…and it is because of the ridiculous accusations and claims that everything alt is illegitimate (placebo, etc.), as if anyone uses rocks to hit their child to cure diabetes, or people really are all idiots and ignorant and don’t know what they are doing with their own money, for what they choose, and are happy with in “natural healthcare” (is what I call mine). So, to counter that ludicrous hypothetical example, I used actual examples of conventional meds that I find horrendous. Still, alts are left to pay for their own, and conventionals are those trying to marginalize and deny. Conventional meds have the right to choose their own conventional methods…alternatives should have the same right and not be dictated to. Someone is now going to say “We’re not forcing you” to do anything… Problem again is, now that government is in control of healthcare..conventionals are using it to control and/or deny others their choice, while at the same time those same people are forced to pay for conventional methods/medicines they don’t want. I’d be more than willing to give conventionals a ‘chance’ to get it together…I don’t see it yet, other than their defending their ways, and attacking “first do no harm” anything. ..ok I guess I will leave it at that :) I can hear the sighs of relief lol have a good day.

  3. weing says:

    “and..my ‘ignorance’ works very well..I’m happy anyway… being off steroids and inhalers for asthma and all. ”

    Big deal. I have a patient who was drinking his urine to treat his asthma. I told him to stop it. That his asthma simply went into remission. He did. At least, he tells me he did. He hasn’t had any attacks since he started seeing me.

    “Those who don’t have insurance, and go to ER for free HC are usually illegals..who will continue to do so. This hc bill does nothing about that.”

    Do you have any evidence for those claims? You don’t think the cost of the “free” healthcare isn’t passed on to the rest of us anyway? Isn’t making everyone pay a tax going to get them to pay?
    But as Kelly Bundy would say, “I digest.” The topic is homeopathy.

  4. weing…(Isn’t making everyone pay a tax going to get them to pay?)

    …illegals will not/cannot be forced to pay a tax.. unless they’re on the books already paying taxes I suppose..and I don’t know what those on the books are forced to do or not. Most aren’t on the books. In any case, why isn’t everyone made to go to doctor for non-emergency treatment in the first place? Where did that ‘mandate’ that all must be accepted in ER? that’s ludicrous I’d say, to begin with..unless, that’s what they wanted to do..over burden ER, make everyone else pay, and millions of illegals not pay. Interesting.

    Now, my son, who can’t afford the new premiums, (since they’ve now gone up 5 X’s) is forced to pay a mandated tax, and still unable to pay for a doctor’s visit! How the heck that helps the ‘poor’ is the question…I heard Chuck Shumer saying (we all should pay our fair share)..lol ..since taxpayers pay for his, I guess it’s easy to say that eh? Anyway, I think we’re coming into a total insane system here in America.

  5. WilliamLawrenceUtridge says:

    I don’t consider what you consider good healthcare, as good healthcare..is what I am saying..so therefore, why would I be forced to pay for it either. Therefore, it would be the only fair thing to do, for you to pay for what I consider good healthcare..and for what others consider good healthcare..whether we agree or not.

    What you consider good healthcare is, quite simply, wrong. This would be particularly evident in a nation-wide healthcare system. Most people are healthy and until we are quite old, disease is fairly rare (and often manageable lifestyle conditions). Once you start to consider the 300,000,000 people in the US, you start to see a low number of relative cancer cases, but a large number of absolute cancer cases. Your treatments would kill them quickly, as quickly as untreated cancer (or possibly even quicker). Rustichealthy, think all opinions in health are equal, that Joe “Buy My Stuff” Mercola is equal to people who actually do research instead of cherry picking it. They are not. Paying for homeopathy is a complete waste of money that would add millions to the cost of a health care system that the US desperately needs. It also gives the imprimateur of “government approved” to a worthless nostrom that is often accompanied by the dangerous and ignorant advice of its practitioners.

    Therein would be the problem to begin with with ‘socialized’ healthcare actually. It could come down to forced ok..even a ‘fascist’ faulty system, someone else determining what any and everyone should get..or not.

    The ultimate fascist is reality. Reality tells you what to do, and we all must obey. The reality is, your advice for asthmatics, cancer patients and diabetics would kill them. A good health care system intervenes early to prevent disease when possible, and husbands scarce resources so that the best interventions are used at the right time. It is not fascist to tell someone that chemotherapy is the best way to cure cancer, it is simply reality. Vitamin C won’t work. Herbs won’t work. Happy thoughts won’t work. Cancer is scary, deadly and painful, and needs real treatment, not uninformed opinions of laypeople with the best of intentions and no understanding of what cancer is and how it grows. All opinions are not equal, and if you haven’t done the years of schooling it takes to learn how the body functions even under normal conditions, you shouldn’t give advice about how to fix it when it is broken.

    Conspicuous..a “mentally challenged” person can tell the difference between criminal activity and humane healthcare..though, I’m not sure conventional meds can most times. Burning someone’s brains out..no matter how “sophisticated” the method is..is still criminal.

    Your statement is incredibly insulting to every single person who works in any medical field – doctor, nurse, researcher or bureaucrat. It would be lovely if health care were as simple as you think it is, but it is not. Everybody wants effective drugs with no adverse effects, it’s unfortunate that we don’t have them. Your “solutions” have no adverse effects (depending on the dose) but also do not cure cancer, asthma or any other disease besides deficiency.

    If your statement about “burning someone’s brains out” is a reference to radiation therapy to treat brain cancer, what do you propose as a solution instead? Let them die in agony? Cut the brain open without trying to shrink the tumour? Think happy thoughts? You pretend that the medical system exists to cause suffering, a condescending and insutling belief with no basis in reality, yet every statement you make shows that your understanding is a charicature that bears no resemblance to reality.

    Even assuming that your solutions – vitamins, organic food, avoiding medicine – is what cured your asthma and allergies, how does that translate to knowing how to cure cancer? Treat diabetes? Correct congenital defects? It doesn’t, and one day your advice will put someone in the hospital.

  6. Jeff says:

    rustichealthy: I take it you’re no fan of government-centered healthcare. Like you the only policy I considered buying was for catastrophic coverage. But since I’m over 30 Obamacare disallows this. I will now be forced to pay for insurance coverage I neither want or need (or pay the penalty tax). You might consider signing this petition letting your Congressman know you feel:

    http://www.thenhf.com/article.php?id=3377

  7. WilliamLawrenceUtridge says:

    actually…http://www.bmj.com/content/344/bmj.e3989

    A report by a watchdog group has concluded that prescribed medicines are “one of the most significant perils to human health resulting from human activity.” The group based their conclusion on their analysis of the US Food and Drug Administration’s database of serious adverse events.

    Did the report say how many people’s lives were saved by the medications? Did the report list how many natural activities (i.e. deaths from heart attacks, strokes, cancer and infectious diseases) were interrupted because of these human activities (i.e. treating diseases and injuries)? Did it do a comparison of how many people would be dead without any medicine whatsoever, compared to those killed by medicine? Did the report conclude “and therefore all medicines should be banned”, or did it recommend better control over medication use to promote safe use and avoid adverse effects? Did you actually read the article, or just what Joe “My Vitamins Cure Cancer So Buy Them” Mercola told you about?

    This has been addressed before, several times. When someone brings up a valid objection to one of my points, I do not repeat it in the future. You seem to think that ignoring feedback makes your points stronger, which forces me to repeat myself. You haven’t added anything new to the discussion, you’ve just reiterated the same blindered talking point you made last week.

    See..now what do we do? YOU should determine what HC anyone gets? or..even what a “placebo” is? which seems to do far far better than your methods..according to my own experience..see my website

    I would suggest avoiding the dangerous advice on your website and putting effort into ensuring patients receive the proper doses of medications at the proper times, and are monitored for side effects. I would suggest a drug licensing system that attempts to determine a reasonable therapeutic index and monitors for unanticipated adverse events – but we already have one.

    And for you personally, I would suggest actually learning something about the systems you are criticizing them, instead of criticizing them without actually knowing how they work. For instance, you say:

    Now conmeds..through government control are going to decide that? YOU should determine what HC I get to choose?

    This is a clear straw man. Even if you were unconscious, doctors still try to respect your wishes. Patients are never forced to take medication if they refuse it (bar certain psychiatric drugs in very limited situations) so the government will only decide what medications they will pay for, not what medications you must take. Pete Moran has several tragic stories of patients who decided to refuse cancer treatments and the ugly, painful deaths they endured as a result. So you are free to die in agony with untreated cancer if you prefer. Nobody will inject you with cyclophosphamide in your sleep. If you ever decide to undertake natural treatment for cancer, please document it on your website as an object lesson for everyone.

    which seems to do far far better than your methods..according to my own experience..see my website

    Have you ever had cancer? If not, you have no experience to base your treatments on. May I suggest taking all your advice about cancer off your website.

    which seems to do far far better than your methods..according to my own experience..see my website

    Don’t worry about the money I choose to spend on ‘placebos’.

    Nobody is going to take away vitamins. Vitamins are immensely profitable for the drug companies that make them. A health care system is about giving people who can’t afford private insurance the chance to benefit from actual treatments. It’s not about taking away your placebos, it’s about ensuring people can see the doctor early, before their broken bone has set improperly or their cancer is too big to treat, or their fingers and toes need to be amputated due to untreated diabetes. You can keep your vitamins, they’re perfectly safe. Now how about people who can’t afford to get bones set, cancer treated, clots dissolved, diabetes managed? They are who a health care system is about, not your vitamins. You can keep them, I’ll stick to food.

  8. Chris says:

    Please don’t let Rusti change the subject. Just remind her that homeopathy does not equate to healthcare, and that Switzerland is not an American state.

  9. WilliamLawrenceUtridge says:

    Now, my son, who can’t afford the new premiums, (since they’ve now gone up 5 X’s) is forced to pay a mandated tax, and still unable to pay for a doctor’s visit! How the heck that helps the ‘poor’ is the question…I heard Chuck Shumer saying (we all should pay our fair share)..lol ..since taxpayers pay for his, I guess it’s easy to say that eh? Anyway, I think we’re coming into a total insane system here in America.

    Actually, universal health care can make things cheaper. There are economies of scale, and most importantly – the expensive absolute cost of care is spread across more people. The illnesses of the diseased are subsidized by the healthy – a compassionate and laudable goal. So universal health care would mean everybody gets health care and those who pay premiums would pay less. The only “losers” are those who can’t afford the premiums in the first place, but while they are forced to pay for premiums (in the form of higher taxes – or not, depending on income) they benefit by having access to a doctor.

    So please, learn about the system you are criticizing. More people will get health care and your son could end up paying lower premiums. America is unique among the first world in lacking a health care system. As someone who has a health care system, it’s fantastic. I don’t have to worry about paying for cancer treatment; my emergency care is covered; minor health ailments can be diagnosed and treated easily. Universal health care is really quite excellent and I simply can’t understand why there is such opposition to it. In fact, I urge switching to a publicly funded system since insurance companies are motivated to stiff you on care to drive up profits. Not an issue in a nonprofit public system.

    Honestly, how can universal access to health care be seen as a bad thing?

  10. WLU..to see what’s actually “dangerous” see: “Science Based” Quackery Now..here http://gethealthybehappy.yolasite.com/

    And here:

    http://gethealthybehappy.yolasite.com/what-do-we-get.php

    And here:

    http://gethealthybehappy.yolasite.com/just-say-no.php

    WLU re this new system… is a Sham..it doesn’t help one “poor”..it hurts them. It does help those who have chronic illness, who don’t want to lose their bank accounts and all they have. In essence..we’re paying for them to keep their bank accounts and not go into bankruptcy..(which enabled them to keep their homes/car/incomes only :(..now we pay for their bank accounts too!) ..Illegals are covered either way without being penalized.

    Jeff..thanks for that link..I’ll go there.

  11. WilliamLawrenceUtridge says:

    RusticHealthy, I’m not going to read your website. You’ve long since demonstrated your unfamiliarity with medicine, your lack of knowledge of human health and your inability to understand how your opinion and experience are unreliable (not to mention irrelevant for anyone suffering from cancer, diabetes, or anything but the minor, self-limiting conditions you believe you healed with vitamins). Make your point with references to the medical scientific literature, not your personal experience.

    I agree that the proposed US health system will have flaws, a fully public option would be superior in my limited opinion though numerous public-private mixed systems have been compared at the denialism Scienceblog (follow the hyperlinks, they show how the current system is more expensive and delivers less value than the private option used in the US today).

    Keep in mind your statement about the poor also applies to you. Your own basic health care will cost you less; what you spend on premiums would certainly be more than what you spend on taxes, universal health care spreads the cost of care across the entire population which lowers the costs for everyone while private health care forces higher premiums since it’s a much, much smaller portion of the population paying for a relatively larger proportion of people who get sick. In addition, even if you assume your lifestyle can keep you healthy (which it can’t since vitamins and food aren’t magic or medicine) you can’t protect against accidents which basic health care will treat. Plus if you do get cancer, stroke, heart attack or diabetes, you will need relatively expensive treatments and your premiums will increase (public health care charges a flat tax rate, never increasing due to individual circumstances). Not to mention the duplication of costs due to multiple private health care companies, dividends, bonuses and the like. And I frankly fail to see how universal health care in which wealthier citizens subsidize the less well off can ever be anything less than humane and compassionate.

    In Canada a universal public health care option also requires a universal government ID card, which cuts down on the number of noncitizens able to take advantage of services not paid into through taxes. It sounds like rather than opposing universal health care for spurious reason, you should be championing a more comprehensive option that is primarily delivered by the state rather than private companies.

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