146 thoughts on “Would you like a liver flush with that colon cleanse?

  1. Fifi says:

    Stu – “passed out”? Don’t you mean “entered another dimension” or perhaps you were abducted by aliens?

  2. Stu says:

    Ah. Oh, yes, I meant “shifted to a different plane of consciousness”, of course.

  3. wondergreen says:

    I have done two flushes and am considering another so I decided to research online as to their efficacy. The idea that the stones being eliminated are not actually all gallstones seems very plausible to my non-doctor mind; however, I think it is also plausible some actual gallstones are eliminated as well. Do you think not a single gallstone would come out from this process?

    Regarding saponification, I was under the impression more heat than the body generates would be required to create soap stones. I would greatly appreciate more explanation/information on the saponification process taking place in the body after consuming a lot of olive oil and lemon (or the like). Also, I have used flax oil to flush, do you know if flax oil would create the same soap stone result? I would think any oil could.

    Finally, I felt truly great after my flush experiences. My skin looked amazing, healthy and glowing. I felt an overall clarity from my vision to my mental state. Several people commented on my skin color actually changing from an olive color to a more pink color and my hair became more blond (please no jokes about blonds). Could flushing bile out of ones system this way actually cause you to lose green/olive coloring? Other than placebo, can you think of any reason I would experience these benefits?

    Many thanks for any feedback.

  4. wondergreen says:


    When I did my flushes, my liver did not contract. The area I really felt something was my gallbladder. I don’t know that I would call it contractions, it did seem hard and maybe sort of churning like. But my liver definitely did not contract.

  5. Simmering says:

    Fascinating debate in here on this topic. Thank you to the reason science based folks. The non-scientist who visit this site don’t live in the world of the case study and its non-emotional results, as is evidenced by their emotional responses.

    I agree with David’s response to “try..” in that why didn’t this doctor write a report on these results? I find this disappointing and thus the claims by the poster are suspect.

    Still, there questions in the debate that seem to be open. If they were answered above, forgive me for missing the answer.

    *The “gelatinous” substance refered to in some of the posts sound like nothing more than an emulsion of oil, juice, water, gastric fluids, etc. Am I the only one on this board who has made homemade mayonaise? Oil, water, egg white, are the basic ingredients, whip, and viola! It could appear gelatinous.

    * But why are some “stones” being represented as firm, putty like substances? That doesn’t sound like an emulsion. Yes I understand that emulsions can change form yet the heat, liquid, activity has to change.

    *The oil mix is nothing more than salad dressing (oil and acid). Add the salts and some water and it would seem that the stone results could be easily reproduced.

    * How does the body produce a soapstone over a period of less than 6-8 hours with a temperature of 98.6 and little activity? The flushers go to sleep after drinking the oil/juice mix. I remember making soap in school (far too many years ago) and we used considerably more heat when mixing the fat and lye.

    *If the oil/juice solution is the culprit in producing “stones”, then results could be produced daily (Ugh! can you imagine) weekly, monthly, ad infinitum. Add mix, wait a few hours, ta da…little gems! Sorry, I couldn’t hold back the levity with the “gem” comment.

    *Why do some of the “practioners” claim that the user will quit producing “stones” after 8,10, or 12 flushes? Is it the power of suggestion? I don’t know if my suggestion power is strong enough to start or stop the production “stones”. Especially when I’m still not sure I even know what the stones are.

    So, the arguements on this could almost go on forever. Arguing with true believers is a fools game. Have you seen the postings that pass for political debates? Yikes! Still, the truth will eventually marginalize the extremist.

    To Harriett’s point, yes it is up to the claimant to back up the claim. Still, isn’t it worth the effort to move the debate along to (hopefully) a logical conclusion? Is there a middleground where flushers and skeptics can meet and resolve the questions.

    David- You made a point that ultrasound is relatively inexpensive and widely available. I think most folks have zero interest in seeing their doctor or paying him/her money money to have an ultrasound when they are asymptomatic.

    Is there someone with access to an ultrasound machine and background in scientific study who could volunteer their time and expense to measure for “stones” before and after a flush? Can we get some flushers who are open to following a strict regime in order to properly measure the outcome of a flush? This coming together would eliminate the arguement “there’s no money in this, so no one will do the research”

    What’s to lose? Some time? Some frustrations in this debate?

    Maybe someone will gain an interesting case paper, for or against the practice.

    Thanks for the consideration in reading this post. It was a little long, so I do hope I didn’t put folks to sleep

  6. Charlotte says:

    I happened on this web site while doing some research on cheilitis.
    I thought the good doctor was going a little overboard in emphasizing how “disgusting” another web site was where there are pictures of poop and accompanying anaysis of said.

    I think the word “disgust” and “disgusting” must have been used half a dozen times in one paragraph. He even a gets another doctor with a Japanese name to weigh in, to show that even Asians, that land of alternatives, thinks it’s the most “disgusting” thing he ever saw.

    Doctors should be less prissy.

    In fact, the “disgust” meter was so over top, that I began to be suspicious. Then it came. The attacks on Hulda Clark and her cleansing obsessions. They are “disgusting” to the good doctor because they flush out too many toxins and generally make the patient feel better.

    This whole page was classic media manipulation. Make somebody feel “dirty”, “disgusting”, abornormal, dysfunctional. Out of the mainstream.
    Works for long time till it doesn’t work any more because doctors have been wrong so continually through history–handwashing as a cure for puerpural fever? remember that one? That DOCTORS fought it. Thought it was silly to be so clean.

    My advice. Use the word “disgusting” a little less when taling about bodily functions. You’re a doctor.

    At best, some advice about presentation would be in order for the offending web sites.

  7. David Gorski says:

    Note that Charlotte has no substantive criticisms of what I wrote; so she resorts to concern trolling about my supposedly being too squeamish about bodily waste. Never mind that before I specialized in cancer I was a general surgeon. I occasionally was forced to wade in buckets of pus, blood, bile, urine, and feces–sometimes all in the course of a single operation.

    As for Hulda Clark, I make no apologies for stating quite bluntly that she is a quack. Period. I’m rarely that blunt about any practitioner of “alternative” medicine, but if there’s anyone on this planet who deserves that appellation, Hulda Clark does. She is a quack. There is no evidence that “all cancer” is caused by a liver fluke. There isn’t even good evidence that a single type of cancer is caused by a liver fluke. And there certainly isn’t any good evidence that her risible cheap “Zapper” box can do anything whatsoever for cancer, although certainly it can perform a rather hefty wallet biopsy.

    If Charlotte has any scientific or clinical evidence to cast doubt on my characterization of Hulda Clark, let her present it now.

  8. Stu says:

    They are “disgusting” to the good doctor because they flush out too many toxins and generally make the patient feel better.

    Holy Tapdancing Strawman Batman!

    So, concern trolling, Galileo gambit, argument from ignorance… did I miss any?

  9. karenm says:

    this is my first time on…the banter has captured my interest! i’m hoping i’m not to late to bring one more question to the table.

    the one thing i haven’t seen the dr. side explain is why no more ‘stones’ get ‘flushed’ out after 6-10 months of once a month ‘cleanses’.

    the pro-cleanse side (most sites/books/etc.) say that believers will experience a varying (sp?) # of stones throughout, but that once you are ‘clean’ (which is defined as 2 cleanses in a row without any stones), you are done. after that, an annual flush is advised to maintain the ‘cleanliness’.

    i just don’t get what could make them non exsist following a cleanse if the explanation for them is that they (the ‘stones’) are a manifestation of the cleanse itself.

  10. Joe says:

    karenm on 24 Sep 2008 at 7:11 am Wrote “the one thing i haven’t seen the dr. side explain is why no more ’stones’ get ‘flushed’ out after 6-10 months of once a month ‘cleanses’.”

    It is incumbent on you to provide high-quality evidence in support of your claim. Note, “most sites/books/etc.” are low-quality. Also, “it happened to me” or “A guy named Bodacious says it happened to him” are unacceptable anecdotes. You need reliable, clinical studies published in good, medical journals. Such a citation can start a discussion.

  11. Schleepy says:

    After reading and reviewing the testimonials and prolific poo photo’s, I have a few thoughts…

    Is it possible that many of these people are ill because they live in filth and have no problem lining their fecal matter along the rim of their toilet bowls?! Did no one else notice how disgustingly dirty the bathrooms and toilets were? Or were they blinded by the poo? What is the actual point of fishing each and every stool out of the toilet?

    Perhaps they would like to drill a hole through their skulls to relieve their brains of the built up blood that is halting their critical thinking? (Google search Dr. Bart Hughes and his trepanation)

    I now have upper right quadrant and shoulder pain from laughing so hard!

  12. Weston says:

    Thanks David . You and the people who commented on this blog have cleared a lot up for me. After reading about the Liver cleanse / gallstone removal process i was pretty much convinced it was a good thing and started the apple fasting process. During the day i thought about it more and decided to do more research as my deep feeling on the process started to change as i thought about it more , how does apple juice soften stones etc. I then found a few blogs that opposed the process calling it Bollocks. I was so confused because both sides for and against had no proof and were just rambling bull shit really and every opinion and cleanse process was different.
    Thank for for supplying the most informative information, you have educated me on this “cleanse” for the better and i now understand what is going on .

  13. woofer says:

    David, thanks for posting this. I’m all for keeping healthy, but I’ll avoid a ‘detoxifying’ process that make me manufacture and poop clumps of soap.

    If your cleansing procedure involves you vomiting, GI distress, overdosing on magnesium sulfate, and fishing stuff out of your toilet — and you _enjoy_ the process — there’s definitely something wrong with you, but it’s not your liver.

  14. fiddlesticks says:

    I wanted to thank you for your research on this topic. My husband had a pre-med student send him information on this cleansing process, which he forwarded to me. Immediately I was skeptical and wasn’t willing to try something that sounded so disgusting. And I was particularly unwilling to sift through my own feces. Was that really the only way to determine if you’d passed something? I truly was disgusted.

    Anyhow, after doing some research via the internet, I found several sites refuting the so-called phenomenon, finally making my mind up completely after reading your blog, and even after sifting through the 100+ comments, many of which, having been posted by “believers”, gave me a good chuckle.

    I am intensely appreciative for your research on this subject, and it is very nice to know that there is a doctor out there willing to make this sort of information public. I just hope a lot of those who are trying this and believing it’s doing something positive for them find your site and have a change of head.

    Thanks again!

  15. benogs says:

    I am a returning college student, going back to study biochemistry to become a doctor.

    I have the unique perspective of being on both sides. I love medicine and I have also tried some of these alternative medicine practices. I am at heart a believer, meaning I have been gullible in previous personal relationships because I take people at their word.

    It is hard for me to discredit a lot of the anecdotal evidence, yet the science-minded side has brought up good points.

    Having the benefit of the two perspectives, I would say this to each. Doctors/medical/science based folks, lets not call the alt-med people quacks or fools etc. You bring up excellent points that have not (and maybe will never be medically refuted). Alt-med people, it is sad when you try to insult doctors or medicine as a field. Contrary to what some of your experiences may have been, not all doctors are out there to strip you of money. Many do very much care for your well-being and join the field out of an altruistic impulse.

    I have done 3 liver flushes and have produced some of these stones. I honestly don’t know if they are oil or stones, I just figured they were stones but now I believe they could be oil.

    I do know that the stones in my last flush were not floating but sinking. Doing a flush is an unpleasant routine including nausea, vomiting, mini-fast, searching through sh*t, etc. I always feel better after a flush, but is this because of the break of my digestive system and the relief of the nausea?

    I don’t know.

    I wish someone would do some hard medical tests on this, fortunately I am in very good health and I don’t need to do these flushes.

    At this point the original poster and the furthering comments have put enough doubt in my mind to prevent me from the unpleasant routine.

    My problem is going on to, all of the people who do these flushes swear by them and I believe them to be well intentioned people.
    Instead of flushing I will try this, the proven health practices…

    1. Exercising at least 20-30 min daily
    2. Staying away from salt, sugar, and white flour
    3. Staying away from poor carbs (high glycemics, sodas, candy, white breads)
    4. Eating lean proteins and high vegetable fruit content
    5. Taking a daily evening alternative medicine cocktail (actually this is proven in the medical field)… psyllium husk and bentonite clay/flax seeds
    6. Assigning time to deep breath.

    So all in all, exercise, deep breathing, fiber, and good attention to diet. I throw in a basic multi-v and fish oil and I’m set.

    Until I get some hard evidence I can no longer flush. I’m moving on with life.

  16. Harriet Hall says:

    I don’t doubt that people who do the flushes are well intentioned and really believe their claims, but so did all the people who used bloodletting for centuries. If you accept the evidence of the flushers, would you accept the same kind of evidence from the bloodletters? There is far more anecdotal evidence for bloodletting through the centuries than there is for flushing. Would you let someone remove pints of your blood with a lancet?

    What do you mean by #5 being medically proven?

  17. benogs says:

    Oh, I just meant that a fiber shake aids digestive health.

    Psyllium husk is a supplement that has been proven to aid in cleansing the colon, etc. I just meant that it is pretty common and well known that the supplement does help your digestive system.

    I like the “YOU: on a diet” book written by the cardiovascular surgeon Dr. Oz that is also on Oprah’s TV show I guess (I don’t watch Oprah). The “YOU” books are great. He recommends psyllium husk as a supplement every night (and flax) to help aid bowel movements.

  18. benogs says:

    It’s funny, I always thought the proof is in the stones.

    That was the reason I did the flushes and also why I felt they were successful.

    The proof that oil and the juice can mix with other chemicals inside the stomach to form these soft stones also makes sense. It also makes me upset that I spent many hours doing this practice.

    I wish someone could medically prove this, until then I don’t think I can continue.

    I would challenge the people doing the flushes to go down this checklist before flushing:

    1. Is my diet excellent? (I think the “YOU: on a diet” book is good, but basically there are a lot of good basic diet books, like the Body for Life diet book. Although you may not agree with 100% of any book, we can all agree that diets full of veg/fruits and better carbs are best. And you can decide wheter or not you add meat, but I like meat)

    2. Am I working out daily or at least 5 days a week, maybe mixing in some strength training to build muscle?

    3. Am I taking good supplements (like a strong multi vitamin/fish oil)?

    4. Am I getting enough fiber and water everyday (avoiding sugary drinks)?

    5. Am I staying away from possible allergens like dairy? (you may have a problem with dairy and not know, I had asthma for 18 years and then stopped dairy and was cured), if dairy isn’t a problem then you’re fine with it.

    I believe if you can answer positively to all these then and only then can you even considering trying to do more drastic practices.

    If your diet is off and you aren’t exercising daily or using vitamins then what’s the point? Learn good health habits then look at more drastic solutions.

    Try a more drastic diet too, like the pH miracle. A diet based on eating more greens. This is probably a better attempt to aid your body in curing itself than things like a liver flush.

    Juice fasting can be healthful too.

    These are all just possible ideas to improve your health.

    Hope everyone does well.

  19. Harriet Hall says:

    Why do you think the colon needs “cleansing”?
    Why do you think bowel movements need “aiding”?
    Did you read the posts about supplemental vitamins?
    What is the pH miracle?
    Dr. Oz believes in a lot of pseudoscientific nonsense. So does Oprah.

  20. David Gorski says:

    The pH miracle is this quackery:

    It’s an “alkaline diet” based on the belief that all disease, especially cancer, is due to “excess acidity.” It’s utter tripe pushed by one Robert O. Young, one of the biggest quacks I’ve ever come across. I’ve actually been meaning to do a post on Dr. Young and his woo.

    I’m afraid benogs is a credulous soul. I really and truly hope he does not become a doctor. We don’t need any more physicians like that.

  21. benogs says:


    The only thing I mentioned about Dr. Oz was that he recommended fiber and that his book has some pretty good diet basics.

    Why does the colon need cleansing? Because if you eat a typical American diet it is possible that you build up a lot of waste and a lot of diseases in your colon if you aren’t getting enough fiber.

    Why do I think the bowel needs aid? well, I don’t. I think if a person isn’t consuming enough fiber then it can help. But if you have a perfect diet, you probably don’t need any aid. But that is the point of supplements right? If we don’t have perfect diets we can take a good supplement to aid. Like vitamin C!

    I don’t think there is any debate upon this medical fact.

    I didn’t read a post about supplemental vitamins but I have done plenty of my own personal studies on them and have concluded that taking in vitamins is excellent for your health (heck, they are vitamins. They must be consumed for humans to live!)

    The pH miracle is a controversial book but I have found the diet which recommends eating more alkaline foods to be beneficial. Dr. Robert Young has done plenty of studies including taking blood samples of people on and off his diet. I don’t agree with 100% of what he says, but I don’t agree with 100% of what many people say.
    He actually is well researched and can always quote studies and uses science to back what he does. Again… I don’t agree with 100% of what he says, so I’m sure there are beliefs that are suspect.

    Yes, I’m sure Dr. Oz belives in a lot of pseudoscientific nonsense. You probably have some beliefs that too aren’t 100% accurate. I believe in some pseudoscience nonsense too. Like the magic of believing!

    When I say colon cleansing or keeping your colon clean, I’m just referring to consuming adequate amounts of fiber.

    I don’t think there is even a possible debate on that issue.

  22. benogs says:

    I did quickly read your post on vitamins.

    Fish oil is great for people… numerous studies have been done affirming it.

    I hate to site wikipedia, but it is becoming an excellent source:

    The American Heart Association recommends the consumption of 1g of fish oil daily, preferably by eating fish, for patients with coronary heart disease.[11] Note that optimal dosage relates to body weight.

    The US National Institutes of Health lists three conditions for which fish oil and other omega-3 sources are most highly recommended: hypertriglyceridemia, secondary cardiovascular disease prevention and high blood pressure.

    A study[8] examining whether omega-3 exerts neuroprotective action in Parkinson’s disease found that it did, using an experimental model, exhibit a protective effect (much like it did for Alzheimer’s disease as well). The scientists exposed mice to either a control or a high omega-3 diet from two to twelve months of age and then treated them with a neurotoxin commonly used as an experimental model for Parkinson’s. The scientists found that high doses of omega-3 given to the experimental group completely prevented the neurotoxin-induced decrease of dopamine that ordinarily occurs. Since Parkinson’s is a disease caused by disruption of the dopamine system, this protective effect exhibited could show promise for future research in the prevention of Parkinson’s disease.

    A study from the Orygen Research Centre in Melbourne suggests that omega-3 fatty acids could also help delay or prevent the onset of schizophrenia. The researchers enlisted 81 ‘high risk’ young people aged 13 to 24 who had previously suffered brief hallucinations or delusions and gave half of them capsules of fish oil while the other half received fish-tasting dummy subtitute. One year on, only three percent of those on fish oil had developed schizophrenia compared to 28 percent from those on the substitute – a very impressive result, but not yet published in a peer reviewed journal. [1]

    ON and ON and ON… we could find a million positive studies.

    The American Heart Association even recommends, and they say “preferably” not the word “exclusively”.

    I agree with you that vitamins are always best NATURALLY and straight from the source. But if I am not eating fish for a week, should I just not take the supplement that is proven to have a wealth of benefits?

    I don’t think you short article which describes the possiblities of high amounts of Vitamin A being taken to refute the use of multi viatmins.

    Oh, and have you heard of Harvard Medical School? They recommend taking a multivitamin:

    From the site:

    1. Eat a healthy diet. A multivitamin provides some insurance against deficiencies but is far less important for health than the healthy food patterns described on this website. Choose a diet rich in fruits, vegetables, whole grains, nuts and healthy oils, and low in red meat and unhealthy fats—let the Healthy Eating Pyramid be your guide.

    2. Choose a daily multivitamin. A daily multivitamin is an inexpensive nutrition insurance policy. Try to take one every day.


    Harvard is pretty well established and respected. I will take their advice.

    Nope, vitamins aren’t perfect nor are they meant to be the #1 source (as even Dr. Weil says) they are meant to be an insurance policy. And Dr. Weil didn’t start selling vitamins when he began recommending them, he realized he had a following and decided to profit off of it. It is a business! doesn’t mean taking vitamins is bad.

  23. benogs says:

    Lol dude.

    David’s post

    I’m afraid benogs is a credulous soul. I really and truly hope he does not become a doctor. We don’t need any more physicians like that.

    Lol, you are a negative person. Why would you say you hope I don’t become a doctor? What does that have to do with anything?

    Lol, I don’t mind the insult though because you kind of look like a big nerd.

    Wayne State isn’t even in the top 70 medical school list, in any category I can find. US news, etc. The median MCAT score for acceptance is behind:

    Washington U
    Johns Hopkins
    U of Michigan
    U of Chicago
    Mt. Sinai
    Ohio State
    U of Pennsylvania
    U of Pittsburgh
    U of Southern California
    Case Western
    U of Virginia
    U of Colorado
    U of N. Carolina
    UT Southwestern
    U of Florida
    U of Miami
    U of Hawai’i
    U of Iowa
    U of Massachusetts
    SUNY Upstate
    U of Rochester
    Wake Forest
    U of Cincinnati
    U of Wisconsin
    UC Davis
    UC Irvine
    U of Connecticut
    MC Georgia
    Indiana U
    U of Maryland

    Everyone of those schools. Lol. If you were really such an authority you would,

    #1 be a part of at least a top 70 school! lol
    #2 not spend time insulting college students on how they are credulous.

    I guess you enjoy spending your time proving people wrong, obviously since your vocation is arguing with alt-medicine quacks. I think I will send your photo to all my friends on facebook so we can all have a good laugh.

  24. benogs says:

    Sorry, not top 70, top 50. I guess you did crack the 70th position. What does the 50th place finisher get? lol

  25. BobbyMckee says:

    You are right, here is another photo of this guy.

    What do you get when you cross down syndrome with the character Goose from the movie Top Gun?

    Answer? view the picture below…

  26. David Gorski says:

    Everyone of those schools. Lol. If you were really such an authority you would,
    #1 be a part of at least a top 70 school! lol
    #2 not spend time insulting college students on how they are credulous.


    Do you honestly think that there aren’t experts at smaller institutions or clueless incompetents at Harvard? For example, one of the big experts in breast cancer surgery whom I happen to admire quite a bit happens to be faculty at the University of Arkansas.

    In any case, one notes that you have yet to provide a single logical or scientific argument to support your case for colon cleansing, but instead have only provided ad hominem attacks. Lots of verbiage and childish mocking, but absolutely zero arguments of substance, and certainly nothing to refute what I’ve written or to make me change my assessment that we don’t need someone like you becoming a physician.

    In any case, I don’t have time to spar with a snot-nosed kid like you right now aside from this quick swipe. Your antics bore me. I’ve been online probably longer than you’ve been alive; I’ve seen your kind time and time again. Get back to me when you’ve actually accomplished something of value in medicine or science or when you can come up with a coherent scientific argument. I might take you seriously then.

  27. Harriet Hall says:

    Some people don’t deserve to become doctors; some people don’t even deserve the courtesy of a reply. Benogs’ comments mark an all-time low for this blog. They are beneath contempt.

  28. David Gorski says:

    I agree, Harriet. Even pec never sank that low. However abusive she became, she still tried at least to make a coherent argument. She failed miserably much of the time, but at least she tried. Bobby isn’t even trying because he doesn’t want to. In any case, I’ve added Bobby to the moderation list. (I was tempted just to add him to the killfile, but I thought maybe he might clean up his act and try to make a coherent argument. I know, I know, I’m the eternal optimist.)

  29. BobbyMckee says:

    Harvard is a much better school than the one you work for.

    Down syndrome Goose to the rescue!

    Seriously everyone, I’m not kidding…

    look at this guy:

  30. BobbyMckee says:

    If Gorski is such a great physician, why does he spend his free time arguing with college students and alt-medicine quacks?

    There is no scientific evidence that I offer because… no one cares! But answer the question above.

    And why do you look like such a nerd?

    Answer both of the questions and then we can have a discussion on science.

  31. wertys says:


    You are a pathetic loser.

    Since you are now recommending wikipedia, you might try looking at your own photo at

  32. notSUCCESSFULmdsONthisSITE says:


    You will find Gorski was fired from his last job and everyone thought he was an a-hole.

    from the site:

    Not too long ago I emailed Gorski and all senior staff and board members of the cancer center afflicted with his metastasizing malignant personality and he was summarily fired. It seems despite Crazy Gorski’s take that all share his patholigies and see the world through his greatness, center staff and executives were delighted to have grounds to fire Gorski on the spot.

    Gorski continues to haunt me on the internet while he is unemployed. I have to admit it’s like a dog trying to hump your leg. Kick him in head and he keeps coming back for more.

    Gorski! if your life skills aid or wiping monkey is reading this to you, remember what happened to Barret and Polevoy…..

    Posted by: DavidGorksi-is-a-known-Carcinogen | September 14, 2007 at 01:38 PM

    My point about the top 50 schools was, when we are looking to take advice from people we take advice from the best.

    When I want to learn bodybuilding, I hope to learn from Arnold Schwarzenegger. When I learn about quarterbacking I try to learn from Tom Brady or Peyton Manning. I don’t try to learn from a guy like Rex Grossman (who is an NFL quarterback but sucks! So, just like being an MD, he has the title of NFL quarterback, but do we just take advice from anyone?)

    WE DON’T LEARN FROM AVERAGE PEOPLE. WE LEARN FROM THE TOP, THE BEST. When we look at the best medical schools for research we look at Johns Hopkins, not Wayne State. We don’t look for guys that got fired to teach us stuff!

    So in the end, we ask WHY do these MDs who supposively are successful and smart spend there free time arguing with college students or alternative medicine people? The reason is, #1 because Gorski was fired from his job (I bet 80% of the people on this site have never been fired) and #2 because they aren’t successful.

    They criticize people like Dr. Weil, Oprah, Dr. Oz, etc.

    Lets figure something out, all 3 of those people make WAYYY more money than any of you nerds who rule the chats rooms. Why aren’t they online getting into arguments? Because they have better things to do. They are making money, serving people, doing important things.

    Just like a college student, YOU MDS HAVE TOO MUCH TIME ON YOUR HANDS. And obviously have no strong social lives. Gorski is either unmarried or married to a woman like Harriet. Lets see, go home to my hot wife or GO ONLINE with nerds and argue about alternative medicine.

    Seriously, can’t agree with Bobby anymore. Down syndrome and Goose combined.

  33. David Gorski says:

    I only let Bobby/benogs/whatever get one more comment through (1) to let him hang himself one last time with his inanity and (2) to point out that the story about my having been fired is on out-and-out lie. I have never been fired from a job in my life.

    I suspect I know who “DavidGorksi-is-a-known-Carcinogen” is, though. He is almost certainly one William O’Neill of the Canadian Cancer Research Group. In 2005, Mr. O’Neill did actually e-mail my bosses (Division Chief, Department Chair, and Cancer Center Director) at my former place of employment, threatening to sue and trying to get me fired. Guess what? Nothing happened. My bosses all immediately recognized Mr. O’Neill as a crank. In fact, my Department Chair at the time, Dr. Steve Lowry, laughed at the matter over dinner at a departmental retreat and called Mr. O’Neill a “bully.” He also told me that what I do on my own time is my own business, as did my Division Chief and Cancer Center Director.

    I proceeded to rack up a couple of more research grants after that.

    In any case, since then, O’Neill has periodically popped up to do the same (usually if I mention favorably his apparent nemesis, Australian skeptic Peter Bowditch) until I finally got fed up with him and told him that I was forwarding all his threats to me to my bosses myself–and then I did it. People like William O’Neill do teach us one thing, though, and that’s that speaking out against quackery will bring out the cranks. Some of them will try to harass you or hurt you professionally.

  34. Stu says:

    Lets see, go home to my hot wife or GO ONLINE with nerds and argue about alternative medicine.

    And, oddly enough, here you are…

  35. Karl Withakay says:

    RE: the quarterback analogy, he’s off just a bit on his analogy.

    Which would you rather learn quarterbacking from, a very good quarterback on a mediocre team, or a mediocre quarterback on a very good team?

    The Colts are 8-3 with Peyton Manning
    The Titans are 11-1 w/ Kerry Collins and they beat the Colts 31-21 in week 8

    Who would you rather take advice from about quarterbacking?

  36. Harriet Hall says:

    You almost have to pity a commenter who is so ill-equipped to carry on a rational discussion that he has to resort to insulting his opponent’s appearance, ranking his school, and lying about his employment status. And who posts under various names and even makes up a name just for the purpose of insulting us. I could feel sorry for someone who is simply ignorant or lacks critical thinking skills, but I have no sympathy for someone who is just gratuitously cruel and evil. Benogs reminds me of Tim Bolen. His conduct not only merits banning him from this list, it merits shunning by the entire human race. Thank goodness behavior like this is rare.

  37. David Gorski says:

    Tim Bolen is a good comparison. So is William O’Neill, actually.

  38. Indeed, Harriet! It has been a long time since I’ve seen a poster whose argument consists of, “Neener neener neener!”

  39. DLC says:

    Wow. come in fashionably late and miss all the fun.
    I liked the article, Dr Gorski.
    I can’t fathom some of the pro-cleanse respondents, however.
    They don’t seem to have much understanding of anatomy, chemistry or biochem. Now me, I’m no M.D. but I know enough anatomy to know the liver doesn’t contract, clench up or even move much at all. But I’ve felt my colon do the hokey-pokey a couple of times. particularly after a dose of citrate of mag.
    Does it not occur to these people that drinking liquified epsom salts and then following it up with olive oil and a good healthy shot of citrus juice would cause similar symptoms ?
    “you may experience some nausea” the cleansers say.
    No doubt you would, after the above cocktail!

    I’ll stick to my dirty, naughty colon, thanks. It won’t be “cleansed” but it will very likely go on doing what it’s supposed to do for the next couple of decades.

    as for Bobby the troll.
    You lose. go to the back of the class with the guy who cites pages as references.

  40. David Gorski says:

    Bobby’s banned, although he’s currently clogging up the moderation queue with equally inane, insult-laden commentary, which I may pass on to my co-bloggers for their amusement.

  41. Prometheus says:

    What I can’t understand about the whole “liver flush” and “colon cleanse” fetish is the idea that – somehow – my colon is accumulating pounds (or kilograms) of “waste” due to my “Western” diet.

    I recently asked a gastroenterologist – who regularly “plumbs the depths” of people’s colon – if she had seen this accumulated “waste” (or “toxins”) during colonoscopy. Strangely enough, she had not. Not even in people who had not followed the “bowel prep” instructions.

    It is possible that she was lying to me, since she is undoubtedly – at least in the fevered minds of the “colon cleanse” fetishists – part of the “mainstream medicine oligarchy” intent on hiding the “truth” from public. However, this is the same answer I’ve received from every gastroenterologist and gastrointestinal surgeon I’ve ever had the nerve to ask (they all give me such a strange look when I ask the question).

    So, which is more likely?

    [1] All doctors are part of a massive conspiracy to hide the “fact” that our colons are gradually accumulating “toxins” and “waste”.

    [2] The people advocating “colon cleansing” and “liver flushing” (or is it “colon flushing” and “liver cleansing”?) are deluded individuals with an elimination fetish.

    My money is on [2].

    As for “benogs” – his first few comments had me thinking that he was a sincere, if gullible, person. However, his subsequent, more vitriolic, postings have revealed him to be just as closed-minded and abusive as he imagines doctors to be. He should forget about medical school – since he already knows more than anybody else, it would just be a massive disappointment.


  42. LiamPatrick says:

    I’m trying to absolve my friend from her beliefs in these cleanses, but there are still some questions that need to be tied up.

    1. How come the “saponified oil” is green despite some testimonials claiming they used a safflower oil or something similar that isn’t green?

    2. Why are the “stones” often extremely neon green, more similar to the perceived colour of bile than to olive oil?

    Sorry if these questions have been answered already, but I don’t remember reading that explanation in the article. I’m certainly not going to filter through bobby- fluffy nut’s pointless contributions in order to see if it was in the comments.

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