Aug 14 2008
Amanda Peet is My Hero(1)
“The graveyards are full of (unvaccinated) men.” Charles de Gaulle, modified by the author.
We live longer than anytime in history. Our long lives are due in large part to good nutrition, sanitation, and vaccines.
There have been numerous posts here and elsewhere about the vaccine deniers, primarily focused around the modern myth that vaccines cause autism.
That is not the topic of this post. Instead, I am going to take a brief tour of the childhood vaccines and review the morbidity and mortality caused by vaccine preventable diseases and the efficacy of the vaccines in preventing these diseases. With the brouhaha surrounding vaccines it is beneficial to step back and contemplate the death and misery that the vaccine preventable disease have caused and continue to cause.
In the interests of full disclosure, I am an Infectious Disease doctor. I make a living from treating diagnosing and treating infections. I don’t make dime one if people do not get infected, so I am against any and all vaccines as they cut into my bottom line (2).
The scope of these infectious diseases is mind numbing. I do not know how to put all this suffering and death into understandable numbers. Billions of people, primarily children, have suffered and died from these diseases. Before vaccines, most children would suffer the majority of these illness before adulthood. They still do in other parts of the world. If the vaccine deniers had their way, our children could suffer again and millions of more would be added to the list of the dead and maimed.
I have seen almost all the illnesses on this list, except diptheria, which is a function of my specialty. Because of vaccines, many of these diseases are rare in the US, and many physicians will never see many of the diseases on this list during an entire career. Which is good. Watching children needlessly suffer and maybe die is not why we go into health care.
As a last note, I have tried to find similar data but each disease has its numbers collected at different times by different organizations. I have tried to find representative data for each disease.
Hepatitis B
The Disease: hepatitis (liver infection) and chronic hepatitis B causes cirrhosis (fibrosis of the liver with liver failure) and liver cancer.
World Wide disease: 300,000,000 carriers worldwide, it kills 500,000 to 1.5 million per year world wide.
US disease: 5% of the US has the disease. An estimated 800,000–1.4 million persons in the United States have chronic HBV infection (CDC). 3,000-4,000 deaths annually from cirrhosis and 1,000 deaths from hepatoma are HBV.
Vaccine efficacy: >90% after three doses of the vaccine.
In 2001 alone, it is estimated that the vaccine prevented 600,000 deaths. Routine infant hepatitis B vaccination, with 90% coverage and the first dose administered at birth would prevent 84% of global HBV-related deaths (3). that’s around 850,000 people, give or take.
Vaccine Side effects: not autism. “The most frequently reported side effects in persons receiving hepatitis B vaccine are pain at the injection site (3%–29%) and temperature of >99.9°F (>37.7°C) (1%–6%) (CDC). However, in placebo-controlled studies, these side effects were reported no more frequently among persons receiving hepatitis B vaccine than among persons receiving placebo (CDC).
“On the basis of VSD data, the estimated incidence of anaphylaxis among children and adolescents who received hepatitis B vaccine is one case per 1.1 million vaccine doses distributed (95% confidence interval = 0.1–3.9) (CDC)”.
Rotavirus
The Disease: a viral diarrhea that kills children.
World Wide disease: “Each year, rotavirus causes approximately 111 million episodes of gastroenteritis requiring only home care, 25 million clinic visits, 2 million hospitalizations, and 352,000–592,000 deaths (4)”, primarily in those less than age 5.
US disease: 70,000 cases a year, maybe 100 deaths.
Vaccine efficacy: “This vaccine will prevent 74 percent of all rotavirus cases, about 98 percent of severe cases, and about 96 percent of hospitalizations due to rotavirus. (5)”
Vaccine Side effects: Not autism. “Children are slightly (1 to 3 percent) more likely to have mild, temporary diarrhea or vomiting within 7 days after getting a dose of rotavirus vaccine than children who have not gotten the vaccine.(6)”
Diphtheria
The Disease: a bacterial sore throat that kills by obstructing the airway or by making a toxin that affects the heart and the central nervous system.
The historical disease: In the 1920s there were 100,000 to 200,000 cases of diphtheria per year in the United States, with 13,000 to 15,000 deaths.
World Wide disease: in 2002, 4,000 children died from diphtheria, from 1990 to 95 there was an epidemic in the old states of the USSR with approximately 125,000 cases and 4000 deaths (7).
US disease: rare, with less than one case a year.
Vaccine efficacy: >95% effective in preventing diptheria.
Vaccine Side effects: not autism. Local reactions and fevers.
Tetanus
The Disease: Lockjaw. Severe, uncontrollable, painful spasms of every muscle in your body followed by cardiovascular collapse.
The historical disease: 600 cases and 180 deaths each year in U.S. More than 500,000 deaths per year worldwide.
Death: 1 in 3.
World Wide disease: in 2002, 198,000 children died from tetanus out of about a million cases.
Vaccine efficacy: Unknown from clinical trials, but the series of three gives levels of neutralizing antibody that suggests 100% efficacy and cases are rare in the vaccinated.
In 2002 it is estimated that the vaccine saved 643,000 lives world wide (8).
Vaccine Side effects. Not autism. Mostly local symptoms and rarely severe allergic reactions (1 in a million).
Pertussis
The Disease: Whooping cough. An infection of the throat due to Bordetella pertussis that leads to obstruction of the airway.
World Wide disease: in 2002, 294,000 children died from pertussis.
US disease: “The rate of pertussis peaked in the 1930s, with 265,269 cases and 7518 deaths reported in the United States. This rate decreased to a low in 1976, when 1010 cases and 4 deaths occurred (9)”. Before the vaccine pertussis killed about 8000 children a year.
Death: 1 in 500 (10).
Vaccine efficacy: Vaccine efficacy is 64%, 81%, and 95% for case definitions of mild cough, paroxysmal cough, and severe clinical illness, respectively (11).
Vaccine Side effects. Not autism. Certainly the most problematic of the vaccines. Besides local reactions, there is :”acute encephalopathy. This adverse event occurs rarely, with an estimated risk of zero to 10.5 episodes per million DTP vaccinations (12)”.
Hemophilus influenzae type b
The Disease: sepsis and meningitis.
The historical disease: Before vaccine Hib was the leading cause of bacterial meningitis (1 in 200) among children under 5 years of age in the United States. 20,000 children in the US under age 5 got severe Hib disease each year and 1,000 died.
World Wide disease: three million serious illnesses and an estimated 386 000 deaths per year (13).
Death: 1 in 20 children with invasive Hib disease.
Vaccine efficacy: 95%.
Vaccine Side effects: not autism. No serious events.
Pneumococcus
The Disease: sepsis and meningitis.
World Wide disease: An estimated 700,000 to one million children die of pneumococcal disease every year (14).
US disease: before the vaccine, 700 cases of meningitis, 13,000 bacteremias and 200 deaths.
Vaccine efficacy: It is more than 90% effective against
invasive disease.
Vaccine Side effects: not autism. No serious side effects.
Poliovirus
The Disease: polio.
The historical disease: 38,000 cases per year in the US prior to vaccine, including 21,000 cases with paralysis.
1400 deaths a year.
Permanent paralysis: 1 in 100
Death: 1 in 20 children and 1 in 4 adults with paralytic polio.
World Wide disease: 1900 cases a year; in countries that have stopped vaccines there have been outbreaks.
Vaccine efficacy: 99%.
Vaccine Side effects: not autism. No serious adverse reactions.
Measles
The Disease: measles.
The historical disease: 400,00 cases a year in the US with 400 deaths.
World Wide disease: Measles infects 25 to 30 million children each year and kills 345,000 (15).
Vaccine efficacy: 90-95%.
Vaccine Side effects: not autism, allergic reaction in 1 in a million.
Mumps
The Disease: mumps.
The historical disease: in the US, 200,000 per year before vaccine with
Encephalitis: 2 in 100,000
Testicular swelling: 1 in 5 adults
Deafness: 1 in 20,000
Death: 1 in 3,000 to 1 in 10,000.
World Wide disease: 13,000 cases a year currently.
Vaccine efficacy: 90-98%.
Vaccine Side effects: not autism, less than 1 in a million will have a severe allergic reaction.
Rubella
The Disease: German measles
The historical disease: in US 12.5 million cases in 1964-65, including 2,100 infant deaths, 11,250 fetal deaths, and 20,000 newborns born with congenital rubella syndrome (deafness, cataracts, mental retardation).
Death: 1 in 3,000 to 1 in 10,000.
World Wide disease: in 2001, 836,000 cases with 100,000 cases of congenital rubella syndrome (16).
Vaccine efficacy: > 95%.
Vaccine Side effects: not autism, less than 1 in a million will have a severe allergic reaction.
Varicella
The Disease: chicken pox.
The historical disease: 4 million cases a year in the US before the vaccine with 100 deaths.
World Wide disease: can not find a reference, not even at WHO. Must run into the tens of millions.
Vaccine efficacy: 99%.
Vaccine Side effects: not autism.
Hepatitis A
The Disease: hepatitis.
The historical disease: 125,000-200,000 cases in U.S. each year before the vaccine.
Deaths: 70-100 per year in U.S.
World Wide disease: 1.5 million clinical cases a year, many more subclinical.
US disease: 30,000 cases (3000 symptomatic).
Vaccine efficacy: 99%.
Vaccine Side effects: not autism. No serious reactions.
Meningococcus
The Disease: sepsis and meningitis.
World Wide disease: outbreaks in Africa have 250 000 cases and 25 000 deaths (17).
US disease: 2,500 people are infected and 300 die in the US (18).
Vaccine efficacy: 85%.
Vaccine Side effects: not autism. No serious side effects.
Summary:
Vaccines have prevented millions of deaths and even more suffering with almost no complications.
To quote a JAMA review that looked at the effect of vaccines on morbidity and mortality (19).
“A greater than 92% decline in cases and a 99% or greater decline in deaths due to diseases prevented by vaccines recommended before 1980 were shown for diphtheria, mumps, pertussis, and tetanus. Endemic transmission of poliovirus and measles and rubella viruses has been eliminated in the United States; smallpox has been eradicated worldwide. Declines were 80% or greater for cases and deaths of most vaccine-preventable diseases targeted since 1980 including hepatitis A, acute hepatitis B, Hib, and varicella. Declines in cases and deaths of invasive S pneumoniae were 34% and 25%, respectively.”
The impact of vaccines on improving the health and well being of mankind has been tremendous. In the US we have lost track of the benefits as we have not had to see our children suffer and die from these diseases. We also have lost track of how quickly infectious diseases can spread and kill. Influenza, without the benefit of modern transportation, managed to kill 25 to 50 million people in 1919. Estimates suggest that these diseases may have helped killed 90 plus percent of the indigenous peoples of North and South America when introduced by Europeans.
The key word of my speciality is infectious. Many of these illnesses, besides being preventable, are highly and efficiently contagious. With the exception of smallpox, all these infections continue to exist and outbreaks continue to occur in populations that, for whatever reason, fail to get vaccinated. Measles, pertussis, polio and others continue to return to kill and injure, always in the unvaccinated.
The amazing feature of vaccines is how much benefit they provide for so little risk and so little cost. Most of the time, especially in acute care medicine, you have to continually weigh the risks of therapies or procedures against the potential benefit. And everything costs so much money. Vaccines are almost a free lunch.
Green our vaccines? The only green you will see by getting rid of vaccines or decreasing their use is the grass growing on the graves of children needlessly killed by preventable infections.
______________________________
1- I would not have used the term parasites, however, to characterize parents who do not vaccinate their children. Freeloaders? Sponges? Ignorant? Uninformed? Dumb as a box of rocks? Incompetent? Child abusers?
2- Sarcasm.
3- http://ije.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/34/6/1329
4- http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/EID/vol9no5/02-0562.htm
5- http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd-vac/rotavirus/
6- http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/side-effects.htm#rota
7- http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00043378.htm
8- http://www.dcp2.org/slides/269/preview
9- http://www.emedicine.com/emerg/byname/Pediatrics–Pertussis.htm
10- http://www.metrokc.gov/health/immunization/compare.htm
11- http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/267/20/2745
12- http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00046738.htm
13- http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs294/en/
14- http://www.who.int/nuvi/pneumococcus/en/
15- http://www.unicef.org/immunization/index_measles.html
16- www.who.int/immunization_monitoring/rub_global_review_2003.pdf
17- http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs141/en/
18- http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/rr5407a1.htm
19- http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/298/18/2155
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290 Responses to “Amanda Peet is My Hero(1)”
An excellent article detailing the threats of preventable infectious disease. It won’t change the mind of any true believer, but anyone looking for real information should take note. I think you make a good point when you emphasize that us in the West haven’t had to see or deal with the deadliest of these infections for some time. We are no longer familiar with the horrors of people dying of these things on a daily basis, or lifelong paralysis, or any of the other side effectsthat were commonplace.
The only thing I could add that would make the data more effective would be some pictures of iron lung wards and the like. Those of us who haven’t seen them in person might get a bit more perspective when you realize how common such interventions were.
Excellent article, one stop reading for a description of the diseases. However, I feel that you are a tad weak in your comments about those who do not vaccinate.
To the anti-vac sociopaths, the merchants of disease, disability and death, I suggest that they do not vaccinate their children, as they encourage others not to, and, allow Darwin to rule, thus culling the herd of their moron gene.
As for Amanda Peet calling them parasites, I think she insulted parasites.
In the examples given above the minimum Vaccine efficacy is 85% and what about when the efficacy drops below this and the “number of lives saved” is lower?
Currently in Ireland and the UK there is a lot of talk about the Cervical cancer vaccine whose vaccine efficacy is apparently estimated at 70%.
[http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2008/0805/breaking50.html?via=mr]
Apart from the usual questions about Autism, and the unusual question about whether a vaccine given against a disease that is spread sexually will increase sexual promiscuity… this low efficacy raises some interesting questions
Will the vaccine save more lives?
- taking the vaccine protects against strains that cause more than 70% of cervical cancers (and then, only if recipient hasn’t already been infected dropping effectiveness even further unless vaccine given to younger girls) but there are worries that screening levels may drop overall as people falsely believe they are completely protected so incidences of more advanced nature may increase. (85 women die from cervical cancer in Ireland each year, but about 2,000 potential cases are diagnosed through smear testing.)
Is the Vaccine cost effective?
- additionally the cost/ benefit needs to be called into question (it costs around €600 for the three doses required). Could this money be spend more effectively in other ways? (Could the millions being spent to save the lives of around 60 people be more effectively spent in another area of heathcare?)
I am not arguing about not getting the vaccine, if I had a little girl I would be advocating she took it, but more about whether it is an effective use of resources in these cash strapped times?
Damn you! That’s the best line ever about the “Green Our Vaccines” nonsense pushed by Jenny McCarthy and her ilk.
I may very well have to steal it.
Dude, don’t use sarcasm on the internet. The internet acts as a filter to remove any chance of detecting sarcasm. Even using a footnote to show it isn’t enough for the average internet reader.
Otherwise, great article! You really know your stuff.
The death rates are an eye opener, especially for those of us who’ve had a couple of those diseases (I wouldn’t wish Rubella on anyone).
I might add post-polio syndrome to the description of polio. I’ve recently met a couple people who’ve been disabled again by polio years after they first had the disease. I’ve been told it’s very common decades later, though I really don’t know.
Prior to the antitoxin (1890) in New York, diphtheria alone killed one child in ten before the age of ten.
Tell us again, Jenny, about the awful horror of one child in 150 being “autistic.”
Except that the DTaP doesn’t cause autism.
No mention of shingles. Maybe I take that more seriously now that my kids are grown and I’m getting into the prime shingles age range.
Dr. Mark you should include in your list of links the following: http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles/vaxliars/pictures.htm. The numbers you gave for the unvaccinated are impressive, but the pictures that Peter Bowditch posted of children suffering from “harmless” diseases are heartbreaking.
DavidCT: You have an extra period in the link you posted:
http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles/vaxliars/pictures.htm
Assume, arguendo that it did. Even assume that every single one were caused by vaccines, such that stopping vaccination would send autism to the history books with smallpox. One autistic in 150 vs. one death in 10. Choose carefully.
This is why antivaccationists are driven to denying that the vaccines work. If you accept the overwhelming evidence that they save lives, you end up with the conclusion that the autism is an acceptable (if profoundly worth working to prevent) risk.
Gives a whole new meaning to Jay Gordon’s “nobody wants to think about acceptable risks” line, doesn’t it? I do notice that he found time to reply to a lot of other criticisms but kept a very great distance indeed from the one that whether he wants to or not, confronting “acceptable risk” is part of his professional responsibility and he’s abdicating it.
“We live longer than anytime in history. Our long lives are due in large part to good nutrition, sanitation, and vaccines.”
I am glad to see an MD admitting that our long lives are not related to the new drugs being pushed to millions of adults.
Yes the greatest triumph of modern medicine is probably the almost complete defeat of infant and child mortality. This is the major reason for the tremendous increase in average life span.
Most species produce more offspring than are needed to maintain their population, and only a certain percentage, the strongest, can expect to survive to adulthood. This has also been true of our species, until the advent of vaccines and other methods for saving the lives of infants and children. It used to be very common for babies to die, and until only a couple of generations ago most families lived with this tragedy. Now it rarely happens.
So yes, that is the triumph of modern medicine. Of course it has only worsened the terrible human over-population and destruction of the natural environment. But no compassionate person would want to go back to the days when mothers could expect at least one of their babies to die.
None of us wants to get rid of vaccines. It would be nice to stop preserving them with mercury or other poisons though. And we should not assume that, just because vaccines save so many lives, that all of them are perfectly safe.
As always, we should try to maintain some kind of balance and refrain from hysterical fanaticism in any direction.
“And we should not assume that, just because vaccines save so many lives, that all of them are perfectly safe.”
Who assumes that? Didn’t you see the side effects posted for each vaccine? I didn’t see any side effects from the “poisons” in vaccines either.
Dr. Gordon is an infuriating case. However, I think he might be reachable–at least when it comes to some of the more egregious and ridiculous claims of the antivaccine movement. For example, on other blogs, commenters got him to admit that the claim that trace amounts of formaldehyde in vaccines was in any way dangerous was a ridiculous claim. Ditto “toxins.” He may even be coming around to admitting that it couldn’t have been the mercury in the thimerosal in vaccines, after all, given that autism prevalence hasn’t shown any signs of falling in the wake of the removal of thimerosal from virtually all childhood vaccines.
The problem with him is, though, that he doesn’t seem able to comprehend that correlation does not necessarily equal causation and that a single observer (him) can be easily fooled by his own observations and cognitive biases (confirmation bias, for example) into accepting a linkage that just isn’t there. He does not think scientifically. He thinks primarily anecdotally, which is a bad thing in a physician.
[...] Science Based Medicine Blog. [...]
As an engineer, I’m inclined to see things a bit differently. Medicine and engineering are both practices that depend heavily on scientific advances and utterly require that those entering the field master the results of those advances. However, for the great majority of practitioners in either discipline science per se has almost nothing to do with day-to-day reality.
I have the relative luxury, for instance, of actually using mathematics in my work. Now and then, anyway; perhaps weekly I get to actually differentiate or integrate a function; I confess it’s been forever since I had an excuse to solve a partial differential equation. I’m also the only one out of hundreds of colleagues who does, despite the fact that we all had to master much more interesting stuff on the way to our BS degrees (much less the MS.) The point being that we don’t use it, and if you don’t use it you lose it.
The same goes for scientific thinking. You and some of the other bloggers here actually practice science: induction to form a hypothesis, experiments to test the hypothesis, refinement, iteration. I profoundly suspect that the typical physician, on retirement, could count on one hand the number of times in hir career since med school that s/he did anything similar.
If you don’t use it, you lose it.
overshoot – you may be right about some physicians, but it is not accurate to say that science has nothing to do with day-to-day practice. I think you may be referring to medical knowledge, as opposed to practice. And even there I would disagree. The only way to make sense of all the conflicting evidence is to have some sense of how to evaluate it scientifically.
But that aside – clinical practice is (or should be) a scientific endeavor. Making a diagnosis is a process of hypothesis testing. It is liable to all of the intellectual pitfalls as scientific investigation – relying upon poor evidence, hasty generalization, the argument from ignorance, confirmation bias, misuse of statistics, etc. You cannot be a good diagnostician without being a good skeptical scientist (at least as it applies to clinical practice even if you don’t apply it elsewhere).
Dr. Crislip said (sarcastically): “In the interests of full disclosure, I am an Infectious Disease doctor. I make a living from treating diagnosing and treating infections. I don’t make dime one if people do not get infected, so I am against any and all vaccines as they cut into my bottom line (2).”
There has been economic evaluations in the effect of vaccines. They calculated both direct costs (hospital care) and societal costs (disability, education … though I don’t know if $2000 hearing aids* are “direct” or “societal” costs):
http://archpedi.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/159/12/1136 …”Routine childhood immunization with the 7 vaccines was cost saving from the direct cost and societal perspectives, with net savings of $9.9 billion and $43.3 billion, respectively.”
* How do I know how much a hearing aid costs? There is a purple hearing aid somewhere in my house. It was lost by a friend of my daughter during a sleepover. She left it on a table in the living room, and we suspect a cat thought it was a toy. So we have less than a month to find it, since hearing aid replacement are not covered by insurance.
David …
You forgot to include the therapy for these diseases, to make survival happen.
Here’s one case: A month or more in the hospital, 15 days on a ventilator, massive medical interventions, instead of a couple of jabs in the leg.
http://www.pediatriconcall.com/fordoctor/CaseReports/diphtheria.asp
[...] Read the rest of this entry at the Science Based Medicine blog. [...]
>>>As an engineer, I’m inclined to see things a bit differently. Medicine and engineering are both practices that depend heavily on scientific advances and utterly require that those entering the field master the results of those advances. However, for the great majority of practitioners in either discipline science per se has almost nothing to do with day-to-day reality.
Interesting, as an IT Systems/Network Engineer (Studied Mech/Civil Eng in college) I have to think scientifically every day to troubleshoot and solve problems and engineer solutions.
I amazed how many people in IT do not even take time to actually define the problem before trying to fix it.
The scientific method is exactly how I approach problem solving in the IT world:
From Wikipedia (Items in brackets added by me):
1. Define the question [VERY IMPORTANT]
2. Gather information and resources (observe)
3. Form hypothesis
4. Perform experiment and collect data [Constrain variables, use controls]
5. Analyze data
6. Interpret data and draw conclusions that serve as a starting point for new hypothesis
7. Publish results
8. Retest
“Gloria Gronowicz” “healing touch”
Type that in google. Can’t post links.
Doc,
I think you forgot about all the SIDS babies who are now fertilizing the grass thanks to your thimerosal vaporizing their brains. Can you tell us how many of them there are who didn’t use drugs or have sex with drug addicts and didn’t need the HepB shot?
Oh, goody. John Best (bettwice33) has entered the building. For anyone interested in what kind of a man he is, check out John Best’s Greatest Hits. Of course, that post is two and a half years old. John’s added considerably to his body of “work” in the interim. For others who may not be familiar with John, he sometimes uses the ‘nym “Fore Sam,” “Baltimore Bert,” or “Mr. Ed.”
Whether posting under a ‘nym or his real name, though, Mr. Best makes pec look rational by comparison.
[...] “controversy” regarding autism and the MMR vaccine, and Science-Based Medicine for a discussion of vaccine side effects from an MD who specializes in Infectious [...]
Thank you for a thorough and effective post. I’ll refer back to it whenever I want hard numbers and facts to support the general idea of “we’re healthier now because of vaccines”. As a mother, I vastly prefer an incredibly low infant mortality rate, and am grateful to modern science for making that possible.
[...] read the rest of this enjoyable and educational post from Science-Based Medicine, outlining the many diseases for which there are vaccinations and why we’re far better off [...]
Dr Gorski,
Thanks for referencing that post that shows I’m a clear thinker uninfluenced by BS and psychotics.
[REDACTED--Mr. Best made an accusation that is inappropriate and false.]
Great post. As a pediatrician, I am seeing this craziness every day, particularly parents refusing the HPV vaccine for their soon to be sexually active teenagers.
A couple of points: the change from the old Pertussis to eh acellular Pertussis dramatically decreased the incidence of side effects (e.g. swelling, erythema at the site, high fever, shrill cry, even seizures). I am sure that they still occur, but I haven’t seen it in the last 8 years.
Also, the oral polio vaccine did cause 6-10 cases of true polio in the U.S. Now that is gone with the injected vaccine. I think WHO has said the Western Hemisphere is polio free for 20-30 years? Last case in Peru in the 80’s.
[...] http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=186 http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/358/20/2089 http://www.csicop.org/si/2007-06/novella.html – Neurologist critiques of Kirby http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/concerns/thimerosal.htm http://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/autism/vaccines.htm http://www.phac-aspc.gc.ca/im/q_a_thimerosal-eng.php#2 http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1808438,00.html http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=128 http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22542677/ http://www.quackwatch.com/03HealthPromotion/immu/autism.html http://www.autismvox.com/the-vaccine-autism-urban-myth/ http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=308 http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/01/popular-delusions-viii.html http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=164#more-164 http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/main.jhtml?view=DETAILS&grid=&xml=/earth/2008/07/10/sciautism110.xml http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2008/07/thanks_jenny_mccarthy.php http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=71 http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=336 http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=341 http://autism-news-beat.com/?p=29 [...]
I think the whole vaccination “controversy” (why there’s even a debate at all is…?) illustrates one very critical flaw in medical science, though: how many abnormal responses does it take before a working theory is nullified?
FTR: I am very much for vaccinations. I am not always for following the recommended schedules–as long as your antibody titers are high enough I don’t see any reason why you should have boosters every year–because these are not entirely benign things being injected into you. But all the same, the rewards outweigh the risks most of the time. I’m undecided about HPV and rotavirus, but for things like the hepatitis, varicella zoster, MMR–definitely.
But back to the main question: undoubtedly someone out there is having a bad reaction to his vaccine. My cat had a bad reaction to her rabies vaccination (she was feverish and sick for a day). One case does not a textbook obliterate, but if there are enough people with enough problems with the paradigm, isn’t it possible that the model might not be entirely correct?
It is the fear that what we know isn’t enough–I think that’s what needs to be addressed.
Jules, being feverish and sick for a day is not a “bad” reaction to a vaccine. Vaccines only work by stimulating the immune system. When the immune system is stimulated it causes fever and being sick. You can’t stimulate the immune system without causing fever and being sick. Expecting vaccines to work without causing fever and feeling sick is to have unreasonable expectations.
You could use weaker vaccines, with less antigen and less adjuvants. They would produce less of a response. Less fever and being sick, but also less immune system reaction and less immunity. They would not protect as much. You could measure antibody titres and revaccinate everyone who didn’t have a high enough level, but that would add a lot to the cost (at least 5x or 10x), and may well cause other side effects. It would reduce the degree of herd immunity (because herd immunity wouldn’t be effective until everyone had a high enough titre). This approach might not even work for any of the live-agent vaccines because they have to produce an actual infection to work.
I don’t think there has been any evidence put up by anyone that there are any major flaws in the understanding of the immune system and how vaccines interact with it. It is known that there are rare adverse reactions. That is what the vaccine compensation system was created for.
Jules, I am very familiar with the effects of the rotavirus on a one year old child. There was no way to contain the volumn and amount of diarhhea the poor kid had. I used several diapers at once, with cloth diaper covered with plastic diaper.
Then there was no way to keep fluids in the poor child… and he became dehydrated, which screwed up his electrolytes. He then had a Grand Mal seizure and ended up being transported to the children’s hospital emergency department by ambulance.
And to make it worse, I even got it. I ended up borrowing plastic diapers for myself since it was so bad I could not make it to a toilet in time!
The rotavirus is the most common cause of gastrointestinal problems in children, and the gastrointestinal bug that causes the most trips to the hospital, and even at least 20 deaths in the USA (half a million worldwide). More information here:
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/rota.pdf
[...] Filed under: Posts — buttle @ 19:42 Mark Crislip has an excellent post on the number of lives saved by vaccines. And it ends with this very quotable line: Green our vaccines? The only green you will see by [...]
@ daedalus:
I’m aware of how vaccines work–but in my (admittedly limited) experience, neither my dog and none of our cats had the same reaction. I was pretty sure it was just the vaccine doing its thing, and I wasn’t really worried about it, but if you didn’t know about vaccines you’d probably freak out too if your normally spunky and voracious kitty hid in your shower for a day and wouldn’t touch her food. That’s why I called it a “bad reaction”–because it wasn’t a normal response. MOST vaccines don’t cause a fever and they don’t make you sick or drowsy (at least, not as an adult). Because of some unusual life circumstances, I received some otherwise childhood vaccines pretty late, and I can’t recall ever being sick from them (it could also mean that they didn’t work…hmm
). I’ve also received some vaccines for traveling, and I certainly did not get sick from them.
As far as titering: unless the person is a hemophiliac, drawing blood to take the titers isn’t going to cause problems by way of side effects. And it would mitigate the (unfounded) terror of thimersol and mercury and what-all, by only giving boosters when the titers fall. Of course, then you run into the question of who pays for it, and that’s one discussion I’m not going to get into. Medicine, not politics, right?
All I’m saying is that if it takes actual evidence for someone to accept that he needs a booster, why NOT give it to him? Doctors need actual evidence to prescribe a pill, why shouldn’t patients be able to demand actual evidence to decide whether they want a particular treatment?
I don’t think there has been any evidence put up by anyone that there are any major flaws in the understanding of the immune system and how vaccines interact with it.
No, I don’t think there are any major flaws in our understanding of how the immune system works. But there are some minor holes (otherwise immunology wouldn’t exist), and I don’t think the adverse reactions are all that rare. Talk with any serious pet owner about vaccines and they’ll probably reveal some concern about vaccninosis–being a member of a few online pet communities, every time the question of vaccines comes up, I’m amazed at how many people chime in with “my pet had a bad reaction, too” and then go on to give all the gory details (and some of them are pretty gory). I don’t think these holes will give me much qualms about vaccinating my kids (if I ever have them), but I can understand why they would be a cause for concern for quasi-educated parents.
But we look back and laugh at the stubborness of doctors in the 19th century–how idiotic these people were, not to understand germ theory! And undoubtedly 100 years from now someone will look back at this e-conversation and laugh his ass off–how idiotic these people were, with their primitive understanding of the immune system! And how stubbornly they cling to the myth of the memory B cell (haven’t found it yet)! So what I’m wondering is how much science needs to be done to move us beyond what we already know and that much closer to reality.
Jules – you say, “unless the person is a hemophiliac, drawing blood to take the titers isn’t going to cause problems by way of side effects”
Uh … in addition to the expense of running the titers, and the double-visits (one for the titer draw, the next for the shots), how about hematomas, syncope, and doubling the pain and fear factor for the patient?
I’ve taken thousands of blood samples, and have had many patients faint and even go into convulsions just from that. Although adolescent girls were the most likely to faint, one professional basketballplayer stood up from the phlebotomy chair, took two steps and TIMBERRRRR!!!! He toppled like a tree onto my petite Filipino co-worker. I had a cop pass out while watching me take blood from the suspect, and parents pass out at the sight of blood being drawn from their children.
I can see the VAERS fatality report now … mother of patient fainted at sight of child’s blood being drawn for a pre-vaccine titer, hit head on corner, suffered fatal subduralhematoma.
Now get the truth http://www.whale.to/vaccines.html
amanda peet is being worked by Offit, a drug company man, Merck mostly.
100,000 vaccines Offit.
“The graveyards are full of (unvaccinated) men.” Charles de Gaulle, modified by the author.
LOL. Over 90% of smallpox victims were vaccinated. Smallpox vax was killing 25,000 babies under 5 in 1880 http://www.whale.to/vaccines/deaths.html
People who don’t vaccinate are informed, and since vaccination is meant to protect then how come you make such a fuss about the unvaccinated?
># AntiVaxon 17 Aug 2008 at 3:41 pm
>
>Now get the truth http://www.whale.to/vaccines.html
OMG, what a bullshit!
># AntiVaxon 17 Aug 2008 at 3:44 pm
>
>Over 90% of smallpox victims were vaccinated.
There are idiots who tell this.
Do you really those idiots?
>Smallpox vax was killing 25,000 babies under 5 in
>1880 http://www.whale.to/vaccines/deaths.html
Even worse: ALL people borne before 1870 are dead.
>People who don’t vaccinate are informed,
That is a lie. Nearly all the people, who do not vaccinate, do not have enough money to buy the vaccines.
I love GAVI alliance!
http://www.gavialliance.org/
ama
># AntiVaxon 17 Aug 2008 at 3:41 pm
>
>Now get the truth http://www.whale.to/vaccines.html
OMG, what a bullshit!
># AntiVaxon 17 Aug 2008 at 3:44 pm
>
>Over 90% of smallpox victims were vaccinated.
There are idiots who tell this.
Do you really believe those idiots?
>Smallpox vax was killing 25,000 babies under 5 in
>1880 http://www.whale.to/vaccines/deaths.html
Even worse: ALL people borne before 1870 are dead.
>People who don’t vaccinate are informed,
That is a lie. Nearly all the people, who do not vaccinate, do not have enough money to buy the vaccines.
I love GAVI alliance!
http://www.gavialliance.org/
ama
I love GAVI alliance!
http://www.gavialliance.org/
ama
AntiVax = John Scudamore = whale.to
Scopie’s Law (see http://rationalwiki.com/wiki/Scopie%27s_Law ):
In any discussion involving science or medicine, citing Whale.to as a credible source loses you the argument immediately …and gets you laughed out of the room.
ama http://www.whale.to/a/american_medical_association_h.html
HCN–Scopie’s law is an ad hominem logical fallacy, do try harder.
Raising legitimate concerns about the credibility of a source of information is not a logical fallacy.
Indeed. It is not an ad hominem to correctly point out aspects of a person making a claim that are relevant to his claim, such as a lack of expertise, a clear ideological bias that informs his opinions, a history of making erroneous or false claims, or, in this case, a known penchant for pseudoscience and conspiracy theories that can easily be shown by referring to a website.
Scopie’s Law is not a logical fallacy because it points out Mr. Scudamore’s lack of knowledge of science and his tendency towards conspiracy theories, not to mention the sheer amount of dubious, unreliable, and false information on his website Whale.to.
Thanks, that was a great roundup of ad homimen terms and appeal to past pseudo-glories ;0) I can use that.
“Mr. Scudamore’s lack of knowledge of science and his tendency towards conspiracy theories, not to mention the sheer amount of dubious, unreliable, and false information on his website Whale.to.”
Pretty classic ad hominem.
Nope, pretty classic statement of truth. The amount of dubious, unreliable, and false information on your website Whale.to truly does boggle the mind.
Hey, I didn’t even point out the bit about you burning your bum with demonic black lines! Which is illustrated here, with some of John’s classic “thinking”:
http://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/?p=998
It is so much simpler to use Scopie’s Law
Truly, the world does not have enough Mark Crislip.
HCN, did you mean this ASSet?
http://www.transgallaxys.com/~aktenschrank/pigfarmer_scudamore_burnt_his_bacon/Pigfarmer_Scudamore_burnt_his_behind.html
Burnt bacon, promptly served…
This words filter is a nuisance…
HCN, did you mean this?
http://www.transgallaxys.com/~aktenschrank/pigfarmer_scudamore_burnt_his_bacon/Pigfarmer_Scudamore_burnt_his_behind.html
Burnt bacon, promptly served.
[...] We seem to have an infestation of a couple of very persistent anti-vaccinationist trolls. (It happens; every so often someone new thinks they can take me and my readers on. They’re usually pretty quickly disabused of that notion.) That infestation is why I thought now would be an opportune time to refer my readers to a post that shows the world to which we could return if the anti-vaccine contingent gets its way. Written by the always irascibly sarcastic Dr. Mark Crislip of Quackcast, it’s entitled Amanda Peet is My Hero (1).we seem to have an infestation of a couple of verz persistent anti-vaccinationist trolls. (it happensë everz so often someone new thinks thez can take me and mz readers on. thez’ëre usuallz prettz quicklz disabused of that notion.) that infestation is whz i thought now would be an opportune time to refer mz readers to a post that shows the world to which we could return if the anti-vaccine contingent gets its waz. written bz the alwazs irasciblz sarcastic dr. mark crislip of quackcast, it’ës entitled amanda peet is mz hero (1). [...]
ama,
Yes, that is it exactly. Since he edited the link at whale.to, I see someone preserved the page as it exists on the Wayback Machine.
Mark Crislip,
Thank you so much for this incredibly useful summary. It’s so good that we should all mail the link to our favorite politicians and celebrities, embed it in our signatures, link it on facebook, and post messages on every anti-science or antivax blog we can find.
Sorry to see Antivax has appeared once again. One day he may very well go through some life-changing event and suddenly gain the perspective to realize that the message of his website is fundamentally evil. How awful will be the day he wakes up and realizes that he’s spent years of his life trying to shorten the lives of others. Mark Crislip’s blog is a concise, well-supported summary of the vast damage that would be done to the world’s children if we believed and followed the philosophy of Antivax and his ilk.
“Nope, pretty classic statement of truth. The amount of dubious, unreliable, and false information on your website Whale.to truly does boggle the mind.”
More ad hominem. Truth isn’t really your speciality is it. Anyone belonging to a group isn’t exactly on the path of truth, to put it mildly.
“They must find it difficult…those who have taken authority as the truth, rather than truth as the authority.”—Gerald Massey
“He (Krishnamurti) said he did not want to belong to any organization of a spiritual kind, because such an organization becomes a weakness, a bondage, and cripples the individual. He said that he did not want any followers or disciples, because the moment you follow someone you cease to follow Truth.”
“The cost of antivaccinationism | What did you mean ?on 18 Aug.”
I think that needs a bit of work.
The cost of vaccination—25,000 babies under 5 in 1880 at the height of compulsory vaccination–now you know why they repealed that law, unobeyed laws tend to make the lawmakers look an ass.
LOL, I realise you guys feel real net savvy by using Archive, but if the page is still up you just look like idiots http://www.whale.to/y/black_lines.html
“How awful will be the day he wakes up and realizes that he’s spent years of his life trying to shorten the lives of others.”
LOL. Reality check: You lot kill 780,000 every year in the USA alone, 120,000 to drugs, plus about 10 million addicted to them. I realise attack is the best form of defence ;0) http://www.whale.to/a/dean.html
John said “The cost of vaccination—25,000 babies under 5 in 1880 at the height of compulsory vaccination–now you know why they repealed that law, unobeyed laws tend to make the lawmakers look an ass.”
And that is relevant how over one and a quarter centuries later how?
Just show us real scientific relevant evidence that the DTaP vaccine used in 2008 is worse than pertussis, tetanus and diphtheria. Do the same with the MMR (which was approved for use in the USA in 1971), show it is worse than measles (which still kills), mumps and rubella.
Just make sure that the studies were done and the papers written in the 21st century. Otherwise, you are just another Usenet/Internet loon staring into a monitor and typing on a keyboard without a clue.
“Nope, pretty classic statement of truth. The amount of dubious, unreliable, and false information on your website Whale.to truly does boggle the mind.”
More ad hominem. Truth isn’t really your speciality is it. Anyone belonging to a group isn’t exactly on the path of truth, to put it mildly.
Brilliant. AntiVax is claiming that describing the information on the Whale website as “dubious, unreliable and false” is an ad hom attack.
He then states “truth isn’t really your speciality is it” – which seems to me to be attacking the person rather than any arguments they have made. A touch hypocritical, perhaps? Not to mention the fact that this statement has just caused my irony meter to explode. AntiVax is citing whale.to and lecturing others on truth? Quite frankly AntiVax, you wouldn’t know the truth if it came up behind you and burnt you on the bum.
I’ve had to recalibrate my irony meter to deal with the hilariously unhinged blather that Mr. Scudamore routinely delivers up.
“And that is relevant how over one and a quarter centuries later how? ”
You mean your lie about smallpox vaccine saving millions of lives? Who would buy your vaccines if they knew smallpox vax killed millions, and didn’t save one single life?
That is why you try and avoid true history, and resort to ad hominem–you can’t deal with the true facts.
“I have no faith in vaccination; nay, I look upon it with the greatest possible disgust, and firmly believe that it is often the medium of conveying many filthy and loathsome diseases from one child to another, and no protection whatever against small pox. Indeed, I consider we are now living in the JENNERIAN epoch for the slaughter of innocents, and the unthinking portion of the adult population.”—W. J. COLLINS, M.D., B.S., B.Sc. (Lond.) M.R.C.S 1883 (an ex public vaccinator)
Is it just me, or does trying to have a logical argument with AntiVax seem to be as wise as getting into a boxing match with a 7 foot heap of wet shit?
this may be a waste of time, but here goes
“Smallpox vax was killing 25,000 babies under 5 in 1880″
has a reference
http://www.whale.to/vaccines/deaths.html
that reference points to
http://www.whale.to/vaccine/antivaccination_league_quotes.html
which then points to
http://www.whale.to/a/navl.html
which has in it the following from 1880
“FIFTH.—That since Vaccination has been rendered obligatory, infantile syphilis (under one year old) has been increased in England, according to a Parliamentary return, dated February 25th, 1880, from 472 per million of births in 1847, to 1,736 per million in 1877, or fourfold; and that other inoculable diseases, such as pyaemia, scrofula, erysipelas, and bronchitis, were also augmented in infants. In England, the increase of inoculable diseases was 20 per cent., notwithstanding an expenditure of 200 millions sterling since 1850 in sanitary works. Another Parliamentary return (No. 443, Session 1877) demonstrates that 25,000 babies are yearly sacrificed by diseases excited by Vaccination.”
that is where I dead end. Evidently the ‘proof’ that 25,000 babies are killed by small pox despite the vaccine are contained in Parliamentary return (No. 443, Session 1877), the original of which I cannot find.
So that piece of data is second hand information. And as I read it, it is not smallpox that is killing the babies, but diseases caused by vaccination ie secondary processes. But I don’t speak 19th century English, so it is hard to say for sure without the original source.
Does anyone have the orignal Parliamentary return (No. 443, Session 1877) upon which this assertion is made?
I know I am being picky by wanting accuracy and the primary sources, but I hope antivax can post Parliamentary return (No. 443, Session 1877).
Also, I need a good laugh today:
If not by vaccine, how was small pox eradicated?
By reading his responses, I get the feeling that trying to reason with AntiVax will end up being about as productive as getting into a boxing match with a 7 foot heap of wet shit.
You cannot discuss with an idiot as he does not have the brain to understand.
So you will never be able to make him learn some things.
The only thing you can do: show the public, what a bloody idiot this guy is.
It works.
I think arguing with antivax is like wrestling with a pig. You’ll only get dirty and the pig enjoys it. If I recall history correctly, smallpox has been good for America. We even have Thanksgiving because of it. Reportedly, it wiped out most of the Indians in the Northeast leaving ready farms for the Pilgrims to use.
Not the first time I’ve read a summary like this, but it’s always good to be reminded from time to time.
I was born in the Netherlands in 1970, and lived in the UK and the Netherlands during my childhood. I’ve had measles, I’ve had mumps, I’ve had chicken pox twice, though the second time (at age 28) I contracted it during a visit to the Middle East. Reading this list, I realize how many metaphorical bullets I’ve dodged by not ending up with any serious permanent effects. The worst I have is some pockmarks from the second bout of chicken pox (though I’d rather not have those either).
I have a two year-old son now, and because I know the discomfort caused by vaccinations is negligible compared to the misery of suffering from these diseases (even without suffering permanent damage), there’s no way I wouldn’t have had him vaccinated, and I completely fail to understand parents who won’t vaccinate their own kids.
weing wrote:
I don’t think that’s right. Disease (spreading from the Spanish colonies in Central America) wiped out 95% of the population of North America before European settlers even arrived in Virginia or Massachusetts, but it wasn’t smallpox.
My main reason for thinking this is that I know the Lewis & Clark expedition carried, on Jefferson’s instruction, a supply for cowpox serum for the purpose of inoculating as many Native Americans as they could along the way, so that the expedition wouldn’t inadvertently wipe out everyone they came into contact with. That makes it seem likely that smallpox wasn’t something the majority of the native population of North America had been exposed to yet.
>I don’t think that’s right. Disease (spreading from the
>Spanish colonies in Central America) wiped out 95% of
>the population of North America before European settlers
>even arrived in Virginia or Massachusetts, but it wasn’t
>smallpox.
Are their statistical data available from reliable sources?
Thank you
ama
Jurgen said “I don’t think that’s right. Disease (spreading from the Spanish colonies in Central America) wiped out 95% of the population of North America before European settlers even arrived in Virginia or Massachusetts, but it wasn’t smallpox.”
Actually, that is why there were fields for the pilgrims to use. The native settlement had been wiped out a few decades before. The influx of European disease in what is now in the USA started in Florida and worked its way up the coast. The English had a few settlements that actually were wiped out themselves by disease (Roanoke, and almost Jamestown). The “Pilgrims” were in the next wave.
The Spanish arrived in 1492… Smallpox and measles are pretty deadly. The English Pilgrims landed in New England less than 150 years later — the diseases were pretty devastating (oh, and the Native peoples had some well established trade routes, which is why one can find sea shell ornaments in the middle of the continent).
“…. That makes it seem likely that smallpox wasn’t something the majority of the native population of North America had been exposed to yet.”
Actually, Captain Vancouver saw smallpox scars on Natives when he explored the west coast of Canada and the Northwest USA in the late 1700s. There are also notes of smallpox wiping out natives in subsequent years (theories included in article):
http://www.historylink.org/essays/output.cfm?file_id=5100 …”In 1792, members of the Vancouver Expedition were the first Europeans to witness the effects of the smallpox epidemic along Puget Sound. On May 12, 1792, expedition member Archibald Menzies noted “Several Indians pock mark’d – a number of them had lost an eye” (Menzies, 29). Commander George Vancouver (1757-1798) stated that two days earlier members of his expedition exploring Hoods Canal spotted “one man, who had suffered very much from the small pox.” He went on to say, “This deplorable disease is not only common, but it is greatly to be apprehended is very fatal amongst them, as its indelible marks were seen on many; and several had lost the sight of one eye, which was remarked to be generally the left, owing most likely to the virulent effects of this baneful disorder” (Vancouver, Vol. 2, p. 241-242). ”
And if you want to continue on the theme of disease devastation and consequences in the American west, a measles outbreak caused a massacre:
http://www.historylink.org/essays/output.cfm?file_id=5192 …”The Cayuse may have acted in retaliation for tribal members killed by whites, in an effort to stop increased white immigration into the Walla Walla Valley, or most likely, out of the belief that Marcus Whitman was an evil shaman using measles to kill people. The physician was unsuccessfully treating the Cayuse, who lacked immunity, and measles was killing them but not the whites. The massacre will lead to the Cayuse War and will spur the U.S. Congress to create Oregon Territory.”
Thanks, HCN, that is interesting. The figures I see are not as high as 95 percent, but the whole web-site is interesting for our vaccine-guys.
That is mostly a history site for a regional area. Another one with extensive data is this photo database (not so much for he vaccine/disease stuff):
http://content.lib.washington.edu/aipnw/
From my recollection the 95% figure comes from speculations that are noted in this book:
http://www.amazon.com/Plagues-Peoples-William-H-McNeill/dp/0385121229/
… which is where I read that the estimates are as high as 90% or more.
Oh, and as far as the Spanish were concerned… as a child attending an American school in Caraca, Venezuela I benefited from the Venezuelan government requirement that we be taught local history and social studies. Our teacher would give us the full unedited history of the Spanish genocide of the Carib tribes. Not only did they depend on disease, but also arrows, very large dogs and enforced slavery. The slavery was so brutal that Africans were imported as labor. They were called “conquistadors” for a reason (Jared Diamond only nicked the surface of what they did in his book “Guns, Germs and Steel”!).
Thank you, HCN. I put that in our “weapons chamber”.
[...] http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=186 [...]
[...] partly rests upon the modern luxury of never having had to live through the horrible epidemics of the past. I wonder how much the current generation will have to suffer through before they get [...]
As the father of a daughter who died from a vaccine preventable disease – Influenza, I struggle every day to understand people who are dogmatically opposed to vaccines. All the talk of conspiracies is simply ridiculous. The influenza vaccine manufacturing business is just about the worst business you can be in. I have talked to some parents who have autistic children and understand as well as can be possible, through them, the difficulties of raising a child with disabilities. No one has ever offered, or intimated that they want to change places with me. As it so happens, I also have a daughter that is being treated for high risk Leukemia. So I have some hard earned experience dealing with the burden of caring for a child with special needs. Almost every night I recall my panic and desperation as I tried to give resuscitate my daughter who had suddenly stopped breathing. One of the last entries in her medical record reads:
“After reaching the maximum Epi dose of 1mcg/kg, _____’s BP continued to fade. at 2245 examination revealed cardiac standstill. She died in the arms of her father. Cause of death (1) Influenza A, (2) Respiratory Arrest, (3) Cardiac Arrest”
As parents we try to protect our children in every way possible. Helmets, seatbelts, etc. Vaccinations are one of the most important tools we have to keep them safe.
My situation is unique in that I could have prevented one daughter’s death (one can’t know for certain but the credible evidence certainly suggests so); and my immune-compromised daughter cannot be directly vaccinated and thus relies upon herd immunity and our diligence to keep her safe. My perspective is that vaccines, like every agent we introduce into our bodies, carry some small risk of adverse events. These are well known, extremely rare and are communicated clearly. Those who oppose them have too much invested to ever convince otherwise since the really vocal opponents have seemingly made it the focus of their lives. Sadly, I think the vocal opposition to vaccines has more to do with how these people perceive themselves than it does with the truth. I can only imagine how difficult it would be to admit that my life’s purpose was entirely wrong. Less vocal opposition to vaccines is easily remedied through education.
[...] and alternative medicine (CAM) and “integrative medicine” into academiainfluenza on Amanda Peet is My Hero(1)Vaccinate your kids, so they don’t die « Cubik’s Rube on HPV vaccination [...]
“Before vaccines, most children would suffer the majority of these illness before adulthood.”
You don’t have any proof of that.
Before indoor plumbing, most children would suffer the majority of these illness before adulthood.
If vaccines were fail-proof and if there were proof of how long the so-called protection actually lasted then your statement would be logical. But since vaccines do fail and nobody knows per child with each vaccine how long the “protection” lasts — then I would say your statement lacks logic.
Furthermore – IF the statement was believed by pharmaceutical companies and could be backed up with proof then wouldn’t we have our government forcing vaccines and boosters on adults – you know, before they are allowed to go to work. Sorry for the sarcasm, I couldn’t resist.
I’m a Mom with one partially vaccinated and one not. I’m the sister of a brother who suffered lifelong damage from the whole cell pertussis vaccine…just to let you know where I’m coming from.
That is so terrible about your daughter. I won’t even begin to think that I could ever understand your pain. I have experienced a similar tragedy through a friend who’s baby died of SIDS. There is no vaccine for SIDS and to say there is one for the flu would be reaching really really far.
I just wanted to post and say that I wish your daughters flu experience could have been like the three my son has had. Three times he got the flu, as did the entire family – but the only one who even visited the doctor each time was my husband. He was required to have a doctor’s excuse for missing work so that is the only way we knew it was the flu for sure. I have had the flu many times, but never until my husband began to get the recommended flu vaccines. While having the flu, I have never gone to the doctor, and have never sent my kids to see the Pediatrician.
Are some strains worse than others or are some people not as healthy as others? Why do most flu’s never need a doctor’s attention and yet some people get hospitalized? Isn’t it rare for a person to be hospitalized with the flu?
I just don’t think you should blame yourself or fool yourself into thinking the vaccine would have prevented your child’s death. I think you would be surprised if you did your research on the flu vaccine. I think you have misplaced the blame…it shouldn’t be on anyone’s shoulders, much less yours.
“These are well known, extremely rare and are communicated clearly.”
I would like to read the studies, articles or journals where you get this information.
They are not well known. Doctors do not report Adverse reactions to VAERS or any other reporting agency. They are not required to, they are not mandated to, they are not even doing it for the sake of the “herd”. Those who claim to help all of mankind with their vaccines can’t help all of mankind with the truth in the numbers?
How can anyone claim that reactions are “extremely rare” when they have nothing to back up their claims? There is no reporting of adverse reactions so we neither know how rare they are – or how often they occur. It’s convenient though to be without this data I guess. Otherwise – why don’t we have it?
Having a Pediatric doctor tell a parent that adverse reactions are rare is hardly CLEAR COMMUNICATION – especially since it’s a guess and nothing more. If it’s not a guess then I’m sure someone here will demonstrate how our government and the AAP/CDC base their claims.
I’m guessing that if parents knew the facts – and this is no conspiracy theory – it’s a fact, then their views on vaccines may differ. There is NO REPORTING AGENCY keeping track of how many adverse reactions occur in this country. Surprised? Do your research and your eyes will be opened.
“The scope of these infectious diseases is mind numbing. I do not know how to put all this suffering and death into understandable numbers.”
Well try truthful numbers…and back them up if you don’t mind. It always makes it more “understandable” or so I’ve found.
Exactly HOW MANY deaths from tetanus occurred in the US last year? Because your numbers are NOT in line with what I’ve read and I can only refer to your rants as scare tactics because of it.
It’s really hard to take you seriously when you say:
“600 cases and 180 deaths each year in U.S.”
I did see the term “historical disease” but I’m not sure what to make of that term and how its used here. Actually, I do, it’s fear mongering at its worst. If not, then why didn’t you tell the facts – or at least something similar to the CDC claims:
“During 1998–2000, an average of 43 cases of tetanus was reported annually;”
and
“The case-fatality ratio was 18% among 113 patients with known outcome; 75% of the deaths were among patients aged >60 years.”
and did you forget to include the fact that the patients were almost ALL unhealthy to begin with???
I’ll wait for your reply or the removal of my post before I tackle the rest of your scare tactics.
I have studied this topic for over a decade, my education is not in the medical industry but when people with the medical and scientific degrees write such lies, I can’t help but to ask you to back it up. Please feel free to prove me wrong but please back it up with something useful. I realize my sarcasm is not always necessary but my anger and frustration over this issue is sometimes hard to contain. When I read statements such as those presented here it makes me wonder and want to ask why. Why do you want to give the impression that people in the US are dropping dead from Tetanus because they were not vaccinated? That is just wrong and I can’t understand the point…how long before that shot wears off anyway???
The correct numbers on Rubella –
In 2001, for the first time in history, less than 100 cases were reported in the United States. In 2003, there were only eight rubella cases and one CRS case reported in the United States. In 2004, there were only nine rubella cases reported in the United States.
Again, the information was copied directly from the CDC’s website.
That’s not even close to the scare tactics used in your article!
To say that someone is “dumb as a box of rocks” because they don’t believe in your lies is just ridiculous. How dumb does one have to be to believe what you say over believing their own research? Or how about believing what is before their very eyes? You may not be old enough to realize this but generations before you got these diseases and the majority survived.
My daughter is 3. She is in great health. She has had Pneumonia, and survived without even a trip to the hospital. She’s had chicken pox and again survived. She didn’t even have to be hospitalized…never even needed a fever-reducer.
I guess you need all those scare tactics to help convince people that they should have irrational fears of self-limiting diseases – especially when they, their children, and every ancestor before them lived through these diseases. No one in my family can remember a single death brought about by any of these diseases. What they do remember is my brother who was damaged by the whole-cell pertussis vaccine and then died at the age of 23 from a heart that just couldn’t take all the drugs any longer. The drugs kept him from constant convulsions. Just ask my Mom and any family member and they will tell you that whooping cough for even a few weeks does not compare to what that vaccine put him through…or the rest of us for that matter.
These diseases are not as dangerous or deadly as you make them out to be!
And to the person who is calling people morons and sociopaths:
If you are intelligent enough to do so, you may want to research for yourself and find proof of the claims he’s made here. Because not doing so makes you look like the moron…and sound like a sociopath. Stop believing in group speak and see the information yourself. Then ask yourself “Who’s the moron here?”
“No mention of shingles. Maybe I take that more seriously now that my kids are grown and I’m getting into the prime shingles age range.”
Well, since your kids are all grown then you may be one of the lucky ones who was exposed to the actual virus. Did your kids get the chicken pox and actually survive??? (Silly question I know.) If so, then recent studies suggest your shingles may be supressed.
The studies suggest that shingles is occurring more often now because of the lack of natural exposure to the real virus. The exposure helps to keep the shingles at bay. That is my non scientific interpretation but you should study this stuff yourself.
What will happen to all these kids of this generation when their vaccine wears off? Oh, that’s right, there will be the shingles vaccine they can all line up for. Right, I’m sure all adults will be running to the doctor for that vaccine…but at what age? When will their shots wear off – do we even know? Or will we see thousands dying of this disease because they never got the lifelong immunity offered by getting the disease when they were children? This is a CHILDHOOD disease, you are better off if you get it when you’re a child. If you get it as an adult – it can kill you. THEN (and only then) might we see the death toll that’s grossly overstated in the above.
“Except that the DTaP doesn’t cause autism.”
Okay, so the a-cellular version does not cause autism. Did the whole cell version? How would you classify all those mentally retarded children from back before the word “autism” was attached to these brain disorders? Why did they change the vaccine? Do tell your version of the story but please at least try to include rational writings from journals or peer-reviewed articles or SOMETHING besides your sarcasm. I’m asking a serious question. Please consider it with a serious answer.
[...] http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=186 [...]
Guardasil –
Those of you who do have a little girl should read about the deaths and other adverse reactions reported (key word there).
Just some reading to help you realize that someone may not be 100% truthful when they spout about the many reasons you should inject your child with this cocktail of chemicals and disease. Especially when there’s lots of money to be made!
http://www.nowpublic.com/ten_facts_about_hpv_and_gardasil
http://www.naturalnews.com/022140.html
Hepatitis B –
How do you get it? Does the CDC think that infant babies are having sex or doing drugs? Will the shot wear off in a few years? Will it last until the child actually IS old enough to have sex and share needles with their drug-addict friends?
There is a simple test that an OBGYN can do to find out if Mom is a carrier. If she is, then the vaccine may THEN have its place. But we don’t test Mom in the US – no, we just shoot up babies with this vaccine when they are ONLY hours old. Canada only shoots up babies who’s Mom or Dad is a carrier – why can’t we do that?
Why not just give your infant a condom for those late nights outside of his crib??? Why not just teach your daughter to respect her body and not use IV drugs at the daycare center between her nap-time and diaper changes? I mean, gee, isn’t infancy a little early for drugs and sex???
“Who assumes that? Didn’t you see the side effects posted for each vaccine? I didn’t see any side effects from the “poisons” in vaccines either.”
And you won’t. Because all side effects are not reported nor are they categorized, maintained or even listed – anywhere!
How convenient for the pro-vaccine side. Don’t have a reporting agency, don’t know the real numbers of children who have had adverse reactions, but continue spouting claims that there are no side effects or that they are “very rare”. If that’s so true then why not have a reporting agency? Why not? What are you afraid of?
If you don’t have the real numbers, then just make some up – and then convince the entire scientific community that those are the real numbers. They won’t ever ask, or go against the group speak and look it up for themselves…so go ahead – spread some group-speak today!
“the almost complete defeat of infant and child mortality. ”
Hang on there – you need a vaccine for SIDS don’t you???
“I’ll refer back to it whenever I want hard numbers and facts to support the general idea of “we’re healthier now because of vaccines”.”
Shouldn’t you look-up those “hard numbers” to see if they are even correct before you go blindly trusting group-speak?
If you did, you would notice how he avoids using plain English such as: In the US, xxx people were diagnosed with xxx last year, xxx were hospitalized from the disease and xxx died from complications of the self-limiting disease.
“A couple of points: the change from the old Pertussis to eh acellular Pertussis dramatically decreased the incidence of side effects (e.g. swelling, erythema at the site, high fever, shrill cry, even seizures). I am sure that they still occur, but I haven’t seen it in the last 8 years.”
I have. The new A-Cellular vaccine put my neice into a coma. At least she’s healthy now and in college. Unlike my brother who got the whole-cell pertussis vaccine and was left brain damaged for life.
And no it wasn’t “6 to 10″ cases that made them remove the OPV. At least, that’s not what I read in 1999 that made me refuse to allow my son to get it. I printed some of it, and funny thing is, the journals are no longer available on the web today. You will have to find them at the library. I am finding this is the case for a lot of information I read 10-12 years ago.
My cat had a bad reaction to her rabies vaccination (she was feverish and sick for a day). One case does not a textbook obliterate, but if there are enough people with enough problems with the paradigm, isn’t it possible that the model might not be entirely correct?
Does your Vet have a reporting agency for adverse reactions? Did you contact them? Did your Vet stop what he was doing and fill out paperwork regarding the reaction and send it in to this agency?
Neither do doctors or hospital staff. Sometimes parents find out about the agency and then they themselves fill out the paperwork. But most often – it goes unreported when there is a reaction. But then again, if a doctor is of the mindset to close his mind to the possibility…well, if he ain’t gonna admit there’s a connection then why would he report the reaction in the first place? Does he report it when he KNOWS – when it’s quite obvious and makes him look like an idiot to deny it? No, he does not. Why? Nobody says he has to, that’s why.
“You can’t stimulate the immune system without causing fever and being sick. ”
Oh, well that clearly explains why my son got the vaccination for chicken pox and then got the (severe case) chicken pox!
All those toxins injected into his body and for what? You should go warn everyone…if they don’t get a fever then the vaccine may fail them!
“I don’t think there has been any evidence put up by anyone that there are any major flaws in the understanding of the immune system and how vaccines interact with it.”
You REALLY should do your homework!
“If not by vaccine, how was small pox eradicated?”
If not by vaccine, how was TB or the plague eradicated?
TB eradicated? Are you kidding? It has never left us, and is now increasing with a vengeance. TB is an excellent example of how vaccination is superior to antibiotic treatment.
The plague still exists also. Infections tend to come and go in waves called epidemics (or pandemics).
You REALLY should do your homework.
Dana, huh? If your son got a severe case of chicken pox after being vaccinated, perhaps if he had not been vaccinated the disease would have killed him as it has killed many others.
It used to be ~145 deaths per year attributed to chicken pox.
http://www.cbc.ca/health/story/2005/02/02/chicken-pox-050102.html
Maybe your child was one of the deaths the vaccine prevented.
daedalus2u -
I haven’t read the link yet, but I will, thanks. I’ve probably already read it. I will re-read it and post any questions or thoughts. But here is what crossed my mind many times regarding my son and CP…
My MIL says my husband never had CP. His brother got it when they were children. She kept taking my husband’s temperature and checking him daily for breakouts. There were none. So she told me that he never had it.
My guess is that either he had it before the brother and had such a mild case that it wasn’t noticeable.
OR
He never got it. Is it possible for a person to not get it – not ever? I have heard that a lot of people never exhibit symptoms. I wish we had done titers on my husband. If he had shown the antigen in his blood then I would not have vaccinated my son. I know its a risk – but considering what I’ve witnessed – so is vaccinating.
Do you or anyone else know where I may read some stories of hospitalization from chicken pox? Any that INCLUDE the child’s past health history? See I’m convinced that my son probably would have gotten the pox just like his sister – it was barely noticeable. She never even ran a fever. My children are very healthy and that is one reason I do not have the irrational fears like I once did. I’m convinced that the treatments or previous health issues – combined with the CP – is what lead to all the deaths. But anyway – don’t you think it’s just a little misleading to use figures from decades ago – back when people didn’t even have indoor plumbing? If I could see some real concrete evidence that the CP killed anyone in this day and time, then of course my thoughts could be swayed.
When my daughter had it, I was already prepared to use natural fever reducing methods instead of tylenol because I’ve learned that skin diseases should not be treated with fever-reducing medicine. This is new information I do believe – does anyone have any comments or information about that?
My Aunt (Mom didn’t remember) said that my brother and I both got light cases of the chicken pox. That, combined with my husband’s CP experience makes me believe that he would not have died, or even been hospitalized.
I’ll share some other thoughts too –
My brother was not given the small pox vaccine but I was. They say a neighborhood child got the small pox and had been playing at our house in the weeks prior to the sickness. I just wonder why my brother didn’t get the small pox? Details are a little fuzzy from my past – but I’ve read similar stories. All of my Aunts remember because they were very worried since my brother was already brain-damaged, they worried that he would not survive small pox.
My daughter recently got the chicken pox. I homeschool my children, and contrary to what group-speak tells you, we do NOT stay home all day everyday. (I wish I had even ONE DAY at home, but we don’t.) That week, prior to the rash (when she was MOST contagious), we spent time with 4 groups of kids. Two of the groups were very large and the majority of each group were kids who had never been vaccinated for anything. The few kids that WERE vaccinated, did not get the chicken pox vaccine (something to do with being Catholic). Only days before her rash appeared, her brother had a birthday party. Most of the kids at the party were not vaccinated either. The parents were SO EXCITED to hear our news. They just knew for sure that their kids would get it. Not a single child from those 4 groups OR the party got the chicken pox! One even spent the night and was in the car with us for at least 5 hours one day (just prior to the rash)!
When someone can make me understand the logic of this and how it relates to what the AAP says with their scare tactics then I’ll change my perspective. Until then, I feel it’s my duty to help others see the lies for what they are.
Our government thinks that the majority of people are too stupid to ever question the group-speak they’ve spread about vaccines…but they would be wrong!
Steven -
You’re right, I meant to use a different disease – I got um mixed up. Sorry – I finally found a place where I thought I might get some answers so I went a little overboard with my comments and questions.
Since there appears to be some very intelligent Scientist and Doctors here…I wished you would please address my many rants above. I am highly interested in your opinions, thoughts and educated guesses. I’m tough, I can take it
Thanks!
Dana said “Do you or anyone else know where I may read some stories of hospitalization from chicken pox? Any that INCLUDE the child’s past health history? ”
http://www.immunize.org/reports/chickenpox.asp
Some of the stories state what the health status was. Though I strongly resent your implication that “healthy children do fine”, since my oldest son has several health issues. This seems to imply that my son is not as worthy of life than other “healthy” children.
By the way, one major problem with chicken pox is bacterial infection. When it swept through my kids’ school in 1994 (a year before the vaccine) at least one child in the school was hospitalized with the “flesh eating” bacteria.
Dana continued “My brother was not given the small pox vaccine but I was. They say a neighborhood child got the small pox and had been playing at our house in the weeks prior to the sickness. I just wonder why my brother didn’t get the small pox? Details are a little fuzzy from my past – but I’ve read similar stories. All of my Aunts remember because they were very worried since my brother was already brain-damaged, they worried that he would not survive small pox.”
This is the problem with anecdotes. By 1975 smallpox was only in Africa, and was officially declared gone in 1979. The last case of smallpox in the USA was in 1949, so herd immunity may have protected your brother (munging the URL because I don’t know what the limit is here, sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn’t);
cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/smallpox.pdf
So can we assume that your brother is over sixty years old?
Anyway, if you are at least 50 years old, how come you can’t remember when everyone got measles and mumps? Or that our parents had had to worry so much about polio?
Here are some of the numbers (from the CDC Pink Book Appendix G):
This is for pertussis:
Year____Cases____Deaths__Year____Cases____Deaths
2000_____7867______ 12___1950___120718____1118
2001_____7580______ 17___1951____68687_____951
2002_____9771______ 18___1952____45030_____402
2003____11647______ 11___1953____37129_____270
2004____25827______ 27___1954____60886_____373
2005____25616______ 39___1955____62786_____467
2006____15632______ 16___1956____31732_____266
Total__103940______140__________426968____3847
The death figures for 2004 through 2006 are from this slide set (munged URL) :
cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/Slides/Pertussis10.ppt#9 … Slide 9. Of the 82 deaths from pertussis during 2004 through 2006, 69 were of infants under the age of three months, while the remaining 13 were older than three months.
Now for tetanus:
Year____Cases____Deaths__Year____Cases____Deaths
2000_______35______ 5____1950_____486_____336
2001_______37______ 5____1951_____506_____394
2002_______25______ 5____1952_____484_____360
2003_______20______ 4____1953_____506_____337
2004_______34______ NA___1954_____524_____332
2005_______27______ NA___1955_____462_____265
2006_______41______ NA___1956_____468_____246
Total_____219______19 or more____3436____2270
Now for measles:
Year____Cases____Deaths__Year____Cases____Deaths
2000_______86______ 1____1950___319124____468
2001______116______ 1____1951___530118____683
2002_______44______ 0____1952___683077____618
2003_______56______ 1____1953___449146____462
2004_______37______ NA___1954___682720____518
2005_______66______ NA___1955___555156____345
2006_______55______ NA___1956___611936____530
Total_____460______3 or more___3831277___3624
Now for mumps (no data before 1960):
Year____Cases____Deaths
2000______338______ 2
2001______266______ 0
2002______270______ 1
2003______231______ 0
2004______258______ NA
2005______314______ NA
2006_____6584______ NA
Total____8261______3 or more
Total of cases of those four disease over the seven year period of 2000 though 2006 is 112880, with at least 165 deaths. This does not include the 16 cases of Congenital Rubella Syndrome listed in the table for the years 2000 through 2006.
Now if we went your way and eliminated the DTaP and the MMR then we will go back to the numbers that are listed for the 1950s (the return of pertussis is already happening, and measles and mumps have returned to Japan and the UK, the USA is not far behind). The number of measles cases were in the millions for the seven year period fifty years ago, with deaths of over 3500. During the years 1950 to 1956 for the three diseases that there is data, the total cases were 4261681 with at least 9741 deaths. And I left out polio.
So why is it a “scare tactic” to remind folks of what used to happen? You claimed to be vaccinated for smallpox, which was last given over thirty years ago… so you have to remember the mumps, and even measles — including twenty years ago when it returned and over 120 Americans died. Something that seems to be happening again.
Dana, the story I linked to was about 145 deaths a year due to chicken pox in the 1990’s before the vaccine was introduced in 1995.
“This seems to imply” Maybe you shouldn’t guess what a person is thinking. You may want to realize that taking something personally and/or taking it out of context is a waste of your time.
Thanks for the information about the smallpox. I have wondered about that since my aunt told me the story (just a few weeks ago). I too thought that small pox was gone by the time we began using indoor plumbing.
“So can we assume that your brother is over sixty years old?” No he would have been 40 this year. Sadly he died from a heart attack at a very young age. His heart was damaged from all the seizures and anti-seizure medication, over 22 years of it – 4 times a day, Phenabarbitol, Dialantin, Depokote, Valium and I can’t remember the other one.
“Anyway, if you are at least 50 years old, how come you can’t remember when everyone got measles and mumps? Or that our parents had had to worry so much about polio?”
I’m not yet 50 but my husband is. Polio aside, everyone in my family of that age-group has said they remember being glad when someone got the other diseases because it meant they were immune for life.
I don’t remember having any of the diseases but I have titers saying I did get enough of an exposure to create an immune response. A “natural” immune response for some. I did get the DPT shot, the same one my brother got. Back then, we only got 3 jabs and a couple of boosters. They were to “protect” against Small Pox, Polio, Diphtheria, Pertussis and Tetanus.
“This is the problem with anecdotes.” I get what you’re saying but here’s it what comes to mind whenever I hear it regarding vaccines:
If “anecdotes” are such a problem then why doesn’t our government and the Scientific Community do something about it? Something like mandatory reporting by doctors and hospitals of adverse reactions??? Do they not trust the doctors to make the right calls? Are they worried that just because a “reaction” happened within hours of a shot that a doctor may *mistakenly* misdiagnose the patient??? Are they afraid of what the general population might do if they got their hands on this information which would clearly give new meaning to the word “rare” – is that why they won’t produce it?
The pertussis deaths were a majority of babies and the elderly. No one can prove that an elderly person may or may not still be “protected” from a DPT she got when she was a child. Nobody is or will advocate boosters for adults. Boobs are not play things and are meant to feed babies. If more Mothers were feeding their infant babies the natural way then those babies would be protected from natural sources and not need vaccination – which, if you think about it – on our US vaccination schedule, they get AFTER that very critical infancy stage when whooping cough is MOST dangerous.
Now for tetanus:
Year____Cases____Deaths__Year____Cases____Deaths
2000_______35______ 5____1950_____486_____336
2001_______37______ 5____1951_____506_____394
2002_______25______ 5____1952_____484_____360
2003_______20______ 4____1953_____506_____337
2004_______34______ NA___1954_____524_____332
2005_______27______ NA___1955_____462_____265
2006_______41______ NA___1956_____468_____246
Total_____219______19 or more____3436____2270
Isn’t it amazing what a difference sanitary conditions and proper wound care can make? From 1956 to 2000 we had a huge drop from 246 deaths to only 5. What year did Bactine make it’s debut? And what product did it replace in America’s medicine cabinet?
No thanks! I’ll choose washing my child’s boo-boo’s over shooting toxins into him/her ANY day.
Dana,
You have said a number of things that don’t make sense. Just in your last post, you said nobody advocates DPT boosters for adults. That’s simply not true. The U.S.’s Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices (ACIP) and Canada’s National Advisory Committee on Immunization (NACI) both recommended adolescents and adults receive Tdap in place of their next Td booster (recommend to be given every 10 years). And the idea that breastfeeding could prevent the need for vaccination is simply wrong: all breast-feeding does is pass some passive immunity on to the child while the breast-feeding is going on.
The law DOES require doctors to report vaccine reactions. You seem to be badly misinformed. Where are you getting your information?
Before you accuse people of lying, you should make sure you can support that accusation with evidence.
“Now if we went your way and eliminated the DTaP and the MMR then we will go back to the numbers that are listed for the 1950s”
Really? We both know you have no evidence of this. Today, as I mentioned earlier, we use anticeptic’s and we wash our hands. Because of indoor plumbing a WHOLE slue of stuff gets washed. Stuff that did not get washed back then. Well, maybe in the 50’s if you were rich…but lets face it – how large a population is that?
Tell me, what do you think is the reason that some kids do not get some disease when they are obviously exposed to it during its most contagious time?
My neighbor’s kid has Hand, Foot, Mouth Disease. I’m a compulsive hand washer so naturally I freaked out. Then I came to my senses and realized that I was having an “irrational fear of a self-limiting disease” moment. Now that I know it is such a mild viral disease and that its contagious way before symptoms appear – kinda makes me wonder why the CDC doesn’t invent one for that too!
My kids were playing with this child and in very close contact during the time the neighbor would be most contagious. Neither of my kids have it (yet)…or they don’t show symptoms yet.
Like the majority of these disease, this is one known to create life-long immunity by getting it once. Most patients don’t even know they have it, its so mild.
I think it would be interesting to check their blood right now. I wonder if an antigen for Hand, Foot, Mouth Disease would be found. I hope so because that would mean they will never get this childhood disease as an adult.
Now – can we say that about all those Varicella-vaccinated kids?
Dana,
If you think Bactine or any other antiseptic or hygiene measure explains the tetanus statistics, you are badly mistaken. What, do you think people didn’t wash or disinfect wounds prior to 1956? Don’t be ridiculous! And Bactiine doesn’t kill tetanus germs; the company website stresses that if you have a dirty wound you should also get a tetanus shot.
The striking value of the vaccine against tetanus was demonstrated among U.S. World War II casualties. U.S. troops were routinely immunized against tetanus and, as a result, only 12 cases of tetanus (half of them in soldiers who had received no tetanus vaccine) were documented. In contrast, thousands of unimmunized enemy troops, as well as civilians, died of tetanus-associated wounds. Due to battlefield conditions, we can be reasonably sure soldiers didn’t have better hygiene than the average civilian.
Bactine wasn’t introduced until 1950, 5 years after WWII ended.
You haven’t done your homework, and your logic is flawed.
Dana said “Now if we went your way and eliminated the DTaP and the MMR then we will go back to the numbers that are listed for the 1950s”Really? We both know you have no evidence of this.
We have good evidence from many places around the world where vaccination rates dropped and disease rates rose, then vaccine rates rose and disease rates dropped again. We have learned this lesson over and over. We may not be able to say for sure that the incidence would be exactly the same as the 1950s, but we can be sure it would be significantly higher than it is today.
Dana said “From 1956 to 2000 we had a huge drop from 246 deaths to only 5. What year did Bactine make it’s debut? And what product did it replace in America’s medicine cabinet?”
No. If you look at the figures, there were 20 cases of tetanus in 2003, and 4 people died. That is a fatality rate of 1 in 5, or 20%.
The reason fewer people got tetanus is due to more people keeping up their DT boosters now than 50 years ago.
The reason that 80% do survive versus the 50% years ago is not do to with anything in a medicine cabinet. It is due to the use of ventilators in a hospital setting, because the toxin causes spasms in the muscle that let a person breathe, and also because there is equipment to deal with erratic heart beats. From:
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/tetanus.pdf … “Laryngospasm (spasm of the vocal cords) and/or spasm of the muscles of respiration leads to interference with breathing. Fractures of the spine or long bones may result from sustained contractions and convulsions. Hyperactivity of the autonomic nervous system may lead to hypertension and/or an abnormal heart rhythm.”
Because tetanus produces a couple of nasty toxins, antibiotics do not do much good, from the article I linked to: “Tetanus immune globulin (TIG) is recommended for persons with tetanus. TIG can only help remove unbound tetanus toxin. It cannot affect toxin bound to nerve endings.”
There is some interesting information about the toxin on the first page of that article : “C. tetani produces two exotoxins, tetanolysin and tetanospasmin. The function of tetanolysin is not known with certainty. Tetanospasmin is a neurotoxin and causes the clinical manifestations of tetanus. On the basis of weight, tetanospasmin is one of the most potent toxins known. The estimated minimum human lethal dose is 2.5 nanograms per kilogram of body weight (a nanogram is one billionth of a gram), or 175 nanograms for a 70-kg (154lb) human.”
Dana said ” did get the DPT shot, the same one my brother got. Back then, we only got 3 jabs and a couple of boosters. They were to “protect” against Small Pox, Polio, Diphtheria, Pertussis and Tetanus.”
I am not sure you remember every thing quite well. Since you are under 50 years old, and possibly older than 40, you might have had a measles vaccine. About 1974 a child would have had the MMR, the DPT, the OPV (oral polio) and maybe smallpox.
Though if you lived overseas like I did you would have had things like yellow fever (which I got in 1959 and 1968), typhus and typhoid. In 1974 while a teenager in the Panama Canal Zone I was vaccinated for smallpox, typhoid, tetanus and diphtheria. I was old enough to have had measles and mumps “naturally” (I got mumps twice).
I do keep my tetanus/diphtheria boosters up to date. The next time I get a booster it will be with the Tdap to protect me from pertussis (which is new and not available in 2005 when I got my last booster). I would hope that you keep yourself up to date, especially since there is no such thing as herd immunity for tetanus.
It is obvious that your knowledge of vaccines and diseases is based on memory, which seems to be a bit faulty. You should perhaps refresh your memory by going through the CDC Pink Book:
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/pink-chapters.htm … it would also offer a great homeschool resource.
Some other good reading that would help in understanding disease, vaccines, history of medicine and science (also great for homeschooling) would be the following:
614.43 M8338B 2007 The blue death : disease, disaster and the water we dri
614.47097 AL531V 200 Vaccine : the controversial story of medicine’s greates
614.49 M233P Plagues and peoples / by McNeill, William Hardy, 1917- Book
614.49 WILLS 1996 Yellow fever, black goddess : the coevolution of people and plagues / by Wills, Christopher. Book
614.514 J6375G The ghost map : the story of London’s most terrifying e
614.51809 B2797G 2004 The great influenza : the epic story of the deadliest plague in history / John M. Barry.
614.51809 KOLATA 1999 Flu : the story of the great influenza pandemic of 1918 and the search for the virus that caused it / Gina Kolata.
614.532 H246M Mosquitoes, malaria, and man : a history of the hostili
615.5 B3286S 2007 Snake oil science : the truth about complementary and a
614.54909 Of29C 2005 The Cutter incident : how America’s first polio vaccine led to the growing vaccine crisis / Paul A. Offit.
614.54909 Os45P 2005 Polio : an American story / David M. Oshinsky.
616.042 M711S 2007 Survival of the sickest : a medical maverick discovers
616.07909 H557o 2007 Vaccinated : one man’s quest to defeat the world’s deadliest diseases / Paul A. Offit.
972.87503 P227 Panama fever : the epic story of one of the greatest hu
I keep an Excel spreadsheet of the books I check out of the library (by cutting and pasting the information from the library email that tells me that my holds are ready to pick up from my local branch), which is why the format is a bit odd. Though it does let you know where they would be in a library using the Dewey Decimal system. Today I just put this book on hold:
Autism’s false prophets : bad science, risky medicine, and the search for a cure / Paul A. Offit.
It looks like a good read.
Dana said “Now if we went your way and eliminated the DTaP and the MMR then we will go back to the numbers that are listed for the 1950s”Really? We both know you have no evidence of this. ”
Now, to continue on with an example of what Dr. Hall mentioned, the return of a disease.
I assume that to homeschool you make use of global news reports. Did you miss the bit that because of a drop in MMR vaccines that measles is now endemic in the UK?
As you know from the world history that you are teaching your children, Russia used to control lots of countries in the former USSR. But the Soviet Union no longer exists, and during the change there were interruptions in delivering medical care, including vaccinations:
http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/eid/vol4no4/vitek.htm …
“In the 1990s, a massive epidemic throughout the Newly Independent States of the former Soviet Union marked the reemergence of epidemic diphtheria in industrialized countries. Diphtheria had been well controlled in the Soviet Union for more than 2 decades after universal childhood immunization was initiated in the late 1950s (Figure 1). Although all of the Newly Independent States were affected, three quarters of the more than 140,000 cases (Table 1) and two thirds of the more than 4,000 deaths reported since 1990 (1-3) were reported by the Russian Federation.” …
“This epidemic, primarily affecting adults in most Newly Independent States of the former Soviet Union, demonstrates that in a modern society diphtheria can still spread explosively and cause extensive illness and death. Intense international efforts have focused on aiding the affected countries and understanding the reasons for the epidemic. The study of this resurgence, especially as it relates to diphtheria resurgence in other industrialized countries, may elucidate the potential for the reemergence of other vaccine-preventable diseases.”
Be sure to add this to your homeschooling curricula.
(Really good book on life under Soviet rule, very funny, and it is appropriate for anyone over the age of 12:
891.86354 D449D 2004 The twelve little cakes / by Dery, Dominika)
Now, I assume that you have taught your children about Africa. It is a very big and diverse continent with a fascinating political history. There is an initiative to eliminate polio, just like they did with smallpox. It was becoming a reality, until some folks in Nigeria decided it was some kind of plot to sterilize Muslim women. Well, polio came back, and got spread to other countries:
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5734a4.htm
(Unfortunately, many of the books I’ve read on Africa are not terribly appropriate for kids, Ms. Fuller is brutally honest, and the other you can get the drift from the title:
968.9104 F9581D 2001 Don’t let’s go to the dogs tonight : an African childhood / Alexandra Fuller.
968.94042 F9581S 2004 Scribbling the cat : travels with an African soldier / by Fuller, Alexandra
327.172 C1232E Emergency sex and other desperate measures : a true story from Hell on Earth /
…..
BUT… the fictional series of “The #1 Ladies Detective Agency” by Alexander McCall Smith is excellent — it does include references to disease, but in a form appropriate for any middle school aged child.)
So if there is such a need for tetanus vaccination, why wasn’t there a huge break out of it as predicted by health organizations after the tsunami of 2004? Thousands of cases were predicted and I don’t believe there were any reported. And virtually none of the countries hit had a vaccination program.
Just trolling around wondering.
nwtk2007 “So if there is such a need for tetanus vaccination, why wasn’t there a huge break out of it as predicted by health organizations after the tsunami of 2004? ”
What makes you think there wasn’t? Doing a quick google search I find some stuff that says tetanus was a problem.
Like:
http://www.doctorswithoutborders.co.nz/features/tsunami/td-13.shtml … “Except for a tetanus outbreak which resulted in MSF engaging in both prevention and care of patients, no other major outbreaks or life-threatening diseases (cholera and other diarrheal diseases, measles, dengue fever, malaria…) occurred.”
and:
ec.europa.eu/environment/civil/tsunami.htm … “For instance, cases of tetanus in Indonesia increased rapidly in the days following the disaster. The EU coordinator on site informed the MIC that the country was in urgent need of a large number of high-dosage anti-tetanus immunoglobulin. Through the network of national contact points, the MIC was able to locate a large stock of 4,000 anti-tetanus doses in Denmark, as well as a medical plane about to leave for Asia and able to transport it. ”
and it was prevented in camps by vaccinating the wounded:
http://www.searo.who.int/en/Section1257/Section2263/Section2310/Section2328_12543.htm … “Tetanus toxoid was given to patients with minor and major wounds. Oral Typhoid vaccine brought by a Korean health care team was taken by us and given to food handlers in camps (with the approval of Regional Epidemiologist) Routine vaccination was not carried out in camps; mothers and children were sent to the closest Maternal and Child Health Clinic for vaccination. Hepatitis A vaccination was given in one camp by the Korean team.”
And those were all on the first page of a google search for “tsunami 2004 tetanus”.
nwtk said,
“why wasn’t there a huge break out of it as predicted by health organizations after the tsunami of 2004? Thousands of cases were predicted and I don’t believe there were any reported.”
I don’t know what you “believe” but a big rise in tetanus cases was reported and there probably would have been more had not organizations like Medecins sans frontieres rushed in supplies of vaccine and immunoglobulin.
http://www.rense.com/general61/tet.htm
http://ec.europa.eu/environment/civil/tsunami.htm
and many more. You could have googled before you spoke.
All the “you’s” here are in regard to the general population —
I don’t understand why the pro side sensationalizes these diseases like they do. For measles and mumps both – you show that we have had 2 or less deaths per year in a five year span. What was the population in this country in 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006? Two or less deaths out of all those people??? And this makes you fear mumps and measles? They are both self-limiting diseases! Why sensationalize them and refer to them as such threats? For centuries people have lived through these mild, self limiting diseases! And they are still surviving it today – clearly – as you nicely demonstrated.
In regard to Tetanus –
“If you think Bactine or any other antiseptic or hygiene measure explains the tetanus statistics, you are badly mistaken.”
Badly mistaken are those who think they are immune from Tetanus simply because they got a vaccine for it. Sadly – that is exactly what so many members of our society think. How’d they get there? Group speak I imagine. These vaccines wear off. Ask the general population how often their doctor tells them that. How often does the general population of adults go in for check-ups and booster shots? Unless their job requires it – not many.
No, I’m not mistaken at all. Proper wound care is all that’s needed to keep from contracting the Tetanus disease. Simple water to flush the dirt from a wound is all that is necessary. Bactine is something I use on my kids’ surface wounds – did parents do this back in the 40’s and 50’s or prior to that period? Your fear of this disease is irrational.
Soldiers do not have water for hours, even days/weeks after getting a deep tissue wound. They are not able to properly clean their wounds. Actually, the recent one (1) case per year was probably some drug addict or homeless person who wasn’t able to clean their wounds at all. Or was it military personnel who were the majority of Tetanus patients in that 3 year span of 5 or less deaths? Do we know any patient history between those 5?
Okay, so 300 million people in this country and you think 5 deaths a year is a large enough number to warrant shooting toxins into your child three or more times before he’s even a teenager? I can not find a single bit of logic in using the Tetanus Vaccine without cause or suspicion. Especially when I know that proper wound care is the key to NOT contracting Tetanus.
Until only recently, not every child in this country got the Tetanus vaccine. The children of illegals are still not getting it. It is costly and known to have a limited protection period with each jab. Adults are only offered the Emergency Tetanus Vaccine (I forget what they call it but there is one for after-the-fact) AFTER they come into the emergency room. Most adults who have had the shot have not had their boosters! Some jobs may require the vaccine, but my children do not work in an environment which is conducive to contracting this disease. They do, however, live in the country and play in the woods daily. The woods is where you will find your tetanus in abundance. Am I afraid? No, again, I’ll clean my child’s boo boo with water and flush out the dirt, along with the tetanus which best survives on dead skin anyway. Then I’ll use Bactine because it’s part of proper (surface) wound care. If the wound is deep enough then surely I’ll take her into the doctor’s office for the Tetanus Toxoid vaccine (the one they give after-the fact, it’s very effective I may add) along with the dose of metals and other toxins. But I should be the one to decide when and if she were to have to ever receive this vaccine – not the government.
Considering the billions who are walking around today NOT protected by a Tetanus Vaccine, I don’t see how you can possibly think that the drop in cases would have anything to do with vaccines. You must think they offer life-long immunity?
I am not against modern medicine. Emergency needs and diagnosis in this country is top notch. I just don’t agree with all the treatments – doesn’t mean I’m a hater of modern medicine.
Again, I just don’t understand the sensationalizing of disease, nor do I understand the irrational fears of them. I’ve had them myself (irrational fears of disease), I’ll admit. It’s just that once I get to the bottom of it – there is no logic in the fear. The only logic I can find in sensationalizing them goes back to the whole group-speak thing. Spread the scare tactics into that mix and you have a society who has an irrational fear of disease. This is what you exhibit when you use world numbers to make your point about how prevalent a disease is in the US.
Do you think the diminished number of deaths from Tetanus was because the disease itself is no longer present? Are you under the impression that we can eliminate Tetanus from the earth? If you are outside right now, then it’s very possible that tetanus is right up under your feet – are you aware of that? It is EVERYWHERE. It hasn’t *gone* anywhere, nor will it ever! Do you think the vaccine makes the virus run for the border or something?
Tetanus survives best on DEAD TISSUE. If you are an average Joe and you suspect Tetanus in a deep wound and are anywhere in the US then visit your local hospital for a vaccine because your shot has most likely worn off and the emergency version will suit do fine!
Dana said:
“What was the population in this country in 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006? ”
About twice as much as it was in the 1950s… around 300 000 000 people. Look at the Wikipedia for United States demographics.
“Until only recently, not every child in this country got the Tetanus vaccine.”
There was a “Vaccine for All” program, did you miss it? From:
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/appendices/G/coverage.pdf … For 1962 the DTP3 coverage was 66.3%, and for 2006 it was 95.8%, and for DTP4 it was 86.2%
Tetanus does not need a deep wound. It can even occur from a bug bite:
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/109/1/e2/T1
Now you did say “Okay, so 300 million people in this country and you think 5 deaths a year is a large enough number to warrant shooting toxins into your child three or more times before he’s even a teenager? ”
Okay, tell us please what is the level of “toxins” is in the DTaP , what they are and compare their level of danger to the pertussis toxin (pertussis is increasing, so if we stopped its coming back), diphtheria toxin (it did come back to former soviet countries), and tetanus (for which there is no herd immunity). Really, tell was what actual science you have to show that the DTaP is worse than pertussis, tetanus and diphtheria. No anecdotes, no news reports, no website essays, just the real scientific papers that show exactly what the toxins are in the DTaP and why they should be avoided, and how pertussis, diphtheria and tetanus are not really problems.
“The U.S.’s Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices (ACIP) and Canada’s National Advisory Committee on Immunization (NACI) both recommended adolescents and adults receive Tdap in place of their next Td booster (recommend to be given every 10 years).”
And if you asked a billion people off the streets if they knew what are you suggesting they would say “yea, my doctor tells me that every time I go in for my annual check-up”.
They RECOMMENDED???
And how is *recommending* that the general population needs a Tetanus booster every 10 years equate to the population actually GETTING the shots?
I can bet you I will be hard pressed to find an adult who’s had a Tetanus booster unless he’s in the Military, or in the medical field. Some manufacturing plants make their employees get boosters but that in no way means that the majority of the population are getting those shots or even THINKING ABOUT getting those shots.
“We have good evidence from many places around the world”
Why must you use numbers from underdeveloped countries to make your point? We don’t live in those countries so why would my decisions be based on what goes on in an underdeveloped, unclean country? If my adult child needs to visit one of these places then it will be him who decides to put toxins into his body, if indeed, that is what is required of his job or required of him to feel safe.
The freedom to make the choice should be ours as adults.
Dana said “And this makes you fear mumps and measles? They are both self-limiting diseases! Why sensationalize them and refer to them as such threats? ”
Only in a population with sufficient herd immunity, usually from high vaccination rates. Otherwise measles spreads, and we end up with lots of people getting it and about 1 in 500 dying from it:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15106092? … “Overall the death-to-case ratio was 2.54 and 2.83 deaths/1000 reported cases, using the NCHS and NIP data, respectively.”
Now in a population without any immunity, it is devastating. Have you taught your children any history of the Native Americans? It is estimated that 95% of the Native population was killed by diseases like smallpox and measles between the time Columbus landed in the Caribbean to about 1800 (when Capt. Vancouver noticed smallpox scars on the natives on the Northwest Coast). Oh, yeah… it is self-limiting because when almost everyone is dead there is no one else to infect.
(the book “Boston Jane” by Jennifer Holm mentions this, it is an elementary level book)
Also measles, mumps and rubella have a nasty habit of causing severe neurological injury. This includes blindness, deafness, mental retardation and then the added feature of measles causing a condition called SSPE that like a very slow death. From http://archpedi.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/160/3/302 … “Approximately 1 in 1000 children with clinical measles develops encephalitis. Although most children with encephalitis recover without sequelae, approximately 15% die and 25% of survivors develop complications such as Mental Retardation. We assumed that approximately 1 in 5000 cases of measles leads to Mental Retardation.”
By the way, have you ever let your children read Roald Dahl? You should look up what happened to his oldest daughter.
Really, what are the toxins present in the MMR? It does not have thimerosal. What are the dangers of the MMR compared to the measles, mumps, and rubella.
“And the idea that breastfeeding could prevent the need for vaccination is simply wrong: all breast-feeding does is pass some passive immunity on to the child while the breast-feeding is going on.”
I won’t change the subject here except I think you should not dismiss the power of your own body and it’s purposes.
Right – “while the breast-feeding is going on” – so why the need for vaccination “while the breast-feeding is going on”?
It makes about as much sense as vaccinating a baby for a disease that is contracted by IV drug use, sex or blood transfusion.
And you tell me that *I* don’t make any sense? Explain the SENSE in all this vaccinating of babies before their myelin sheath is even mature, before the brain has matured, before the immune system has a chance to even begin to mature. Where’s the sense in that?
The babies own system begins to slowly take over at some point but in the beginning, Mom’s immunities will protect the baby from these disease that they don’t even get a vaccine for until they are like 18 months. You can find this information on the Le Leche website if you are interested.
Now – where can I find the data on adverse vaccine reactions? Ya got that handy? Millions of people will be waiting for you to post it because you’re the ONLY one who knows about it.
Dana said “Why must you use numbers from underdeveloped countries to make your point?”
The only “underdeveloped” country mentioned was Nigeria.
If you read the diphtheria article, it said the disease returned to industrialized countries. I even quoted the part that said ““In the 1990s, a massive epidemic throughout the Newly Independent States of the former Soviet Union marked the reemergence of epidemic diphtheria in
industrialized countries.”
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Are you saying that Russia and the Ukraine are underdeveloped?
Do you consider the UK to be underdeveloped? You do know that measles is now endemic there.
Measles has also returned to Switzerland (this is where the kid who spread measles in San Diego picked it up). Are you saying Switzerland in underdeveloped?
Do you consider Japan to be underdeveloped? From:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15889991? …”An antivaccine movement developed in Japan as a consequence of increasing numbers of adverse reactions to whole-cell pertussis vaccines in the mid-1970s. After two infants died within 24 h of the vaccination from 1974 to 1975, the Japanese government temporarily suspended vaccinations. Subsequently, the public and the government witnessed the re-emergence of whooping cough, with 41 deaths in 1979. This series of unfortunate events revealed to the public that the vaccine had, in fact, been beneficial. ”
Oh, and measles is also endemic in Japan due to reduced measles vaccination:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18357755? … “In 2007, measles outbreak occurred mainly among teen/twenties in Japan, and many high-school, universities and colleges were closed to reduce spread of measles….However, we had measles outbreak in 2001, and total annual patients number were estimated 200-300 thausands mainly among young infants. The main reason was low immunization coverage of measles at 1 year old,… ”
Now, please show us what real scientific evidence there is to show that the vaccines are worse than the diseases.
Dana said “Now – where can I find the data on adverse vaccine reactions? Ya got that handy?”
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/pink-chapters.htm
You will have to read each chapter and check the bibliography at the end.
You can also do research at http://www.pubmed.gov.
Also, a comment on breastfeeding, and it is only an anecdote: My daughter was fed only breastmilk for her first six months. She caught chicken pox from her brother. Breastmilk is not protective for very much or for very long. And a six-month old baby with chicken pox is not fun.
Since you claim to know more than us, can you tell me how well breastfeeding protects against pertussis and Haemophilus influenzae? If breastmilk protects so well, why are those two diseases so horrible to babies? I really want to know.
Harriett – “I don’t know what you “believe” but a big rise in tetanus cases was reported and there probably would have been more had not organizations like Medecins sans frontieres rushed in supplies of vaccine and immunoglobulin.”
No offense, but 91 cases and no deaths in indonesia after the tsunami is not a huge out break.
The vac world would make us believe there would be thousands and thousands of deaths without the vaccine.
The CDC issued a report that the outbreak they expected did not occur.
It didn’t happen and there were only thousands of vacs given post disaster. You should read it yourself Harriet.
How many complications are there each year directly attributable to vaccinations which result in the death of the individual due to the vaccination and not the disease?
Don’t bother answering. It would be biased and meaningless. Continue on with what ever it was that you were discussing.
“I assume that to homeschool you make use of global news reports.”
Why would you assume that? Public school doesn’t make use of them…it’s not on the *test*.
“Did you miss the bit that because of a drop in MMR vaccines that measles is now endemic in the UK?” No, he’s in 4th grade as of 2 days ago and my other one is only 3.
Thanks for sharing though, I’ll read about it.
“So why is it a “scare tactic” to remind folks of what used to happen? You claimed to be vaccinated for smallpox, which was last given over thirty years ago… so you have to remember the mumps, and even measles — including twenty years ago when it returned and over 120 Americans died. Something that seems to be happening again.”
“Something that seems to be happening again.”
Your own posts suggest that not a single American got Mumps or Measles two years ago:
cases deaths
2006_______55______ NA
2006_____6584______ NA
Yet you say it seems to be “happening again”
What???
“So why is it a “scare tactic” to remind folks of what used to happen?”
Because what used to happen, happened in a completely different environment. We wash our hands more because of running water. We wash EVERYTHING more because of running water. Things are cleaner today. People are cleaner, conditions are cleaner. Clean is not the ideal climate for disease.
The two time periods do not compare in terms of living conditions.
Dana said “Why would you assume that? Public school doesn’t make use of them…it’s not on the *test*.”
Because our schools make use of them (yes, they are public). My kids were often required to bring in a news report each week. Sometimes for social studies, and sometimes for science.
Even in the elementary grades.
Also, in the 5th grade a project was for the child was to create a poster with a number of columns equal to the number of years alive with two rows. One row was to draw and write about an incident that happened to themself that year, and then under do the same for a significant news event during the same year.
One would hope that you as your son’s teacher would keep up with current events. Like:
http://www.eurosurveillance.org/viewarticle.aspx?articleid=18919 …”Fourteen years after the local transmission of measles was halted in the United Kingdom (UK), the disease has once again become endemic, according to the Health Protection Agency (HPA), the public health body of England and Wales. In an update on measles cases in its weekly bulletin last week, the agency stated that, as a result of almost a decade of low mumps-measles-rubella (MMR) vaccination coverage across the UK, ‘the number of children susceptible to measles is now sufficient to support the continuous spread of measles’ [1].”
Now could you answer my questions?
“It would be biased and meaningless.”
Biased and meaningless because you don’t want to face the fact that this data is not maintained. See some people take the facts and simply dismiss them with crap like “biased and meaningless”.
You forget I’ve mentioned that one child is partially vaccinated and that I myself have been vaccinated. I may not have mentioned how I got sick with the flu after my husband got vaccined. Or how we haven’t had it once since he stopped getting the vaccine. Or how we got it three years in a row — all the very same years after he got the vaccine.
I’m not bias.
Don’t dismiss it. Prove that doctors and hospitals report adverse reactions to VAERS or any other agency. Go right ahead because I’ve wanted this data for over 10 years and have yet to get it.
“the story I linked to was about 145 deaths a year due to chicken pox in the 1990’s before the vaccine was introduced in 1995.”
Sad story. I would like to get the sources. I’ve never said that the vaccine didn’t keep some kids from getting the disease. We know it doesn’t work on ALL kids. Just how many we don’t know.
Regardless – its a self limiting disease.
See, my vaccinated kid broke out with the pox for way longer than ANY textbook said he would. He was literally COVERED. Not knowing any better, I fed him tylenol and motrin and covered him with that pink liquid. I won’t even go into how long this lasted but until you’ve experienced this – and then had time to think about how every family member on both sides had a LIGHT case of the pox – it makes you wonder if it were vaccine failure or something else. Perhaps he had the natural pox and that was followed up with the vaccine strain. Are we all gonna pretend that doesn’t exist??? The one created by the vaccine itself?
When my Pediatric Clinic (of like 30 something doctors) refused to see my kid and confirm that he indeed had the pox, I went straight to the office (38 miles away) with the kid in the car and told the nurse that either a doctor come out that back door or I would bring my chicken pox covered child right into that waiting room.
What the hell were they afraid of after all? You better bet all these illegal immigrant children and others alike have had that damn vaccine unless they are immune-compromised and if so, they aren’t sharing a waiting room in the first place.
What were they afraid of? Chicken Pox is airborne and the medical staff knows the vaccines are not 100%.
In response to http://www.immunize.org/reports/chickenpox.asp —
Adults usually do have more complications, that is why its best to get the disease when you are an adult, instead of relying on the man-made concoction to “protect you”.
Our immune systems are designed to do a specific job. I think we interrupt that process all the time. Adults do often die from chicken pox…and yea even that one in a million elementary aged child of 9 years old was reported healthy. That’s ONE case.
This is helpful, just not real convincing yet but I’ll read some more. I try to be open minded but it wont’ be easy to convince me. Not considering all my anecdotal evidence. Not considering how many people are living in this country in comparison to these reported deaths.
I have not finished looking at them but I’ll keep them and read later. I am interested to see the vaccination status of the ones that are not making it clear on the cover page.
In response to http://www.immunize.org/reports/chickenpox.asp —
“Report #21: Rebecca Cole’s 12-year-old son Christopher dies of complications of chickenpox after being treated with corticosteroids for an asthma attack.”
Are you not supposed to treat a patient having an asthma attack with corticosteroids when he’s got the chicken pox?
Does anyone know?
“Dana said “Why must you use numbers from underdeveloped countries to make your point?”
That’s because the initial article uses world-wide numbers does it not?
Dana said “Your own posts suggest that not a single American got Mumps or Measles two years ago:
cases deaths
2006_______55______ NA
2006_____6584______ NA
”
…. Um, no. The number of people who got measles in 2006 was 55 (that is what “cases” means), and 6584 people got mumps. NA = Not Available, what was not available were the deaths… something you would know if you had checked the original source, the CDC Pink Book Appendix G:
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/appendices/appdx-full-g.pdf … or knew how to read a table.
I would suggest you take a basic math class to learn how to read tables before attempting to teach your son 5th grade level math. You will also need to figure out how to read those tables to create graphs, something most 5th graders know how to do.
Also, that mumps outbreak was not completely harmless. There were people who became deaf, and several young men may now be sterile (orchitis is inflammation of the testicles, which can cause sterility, oophoritis is the inflammation of ovary — all very painful). From:
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5520a4.htm … “However, complications have included 27 reports of orchitis, 11 meningitis, four encephalitis, four deafness, and one each of oophoritis, mastitis, pancreatitis, and unspecified complications.”
Dana, please answer my questions.
What actual scientific evidence do you have that the DTaP is more of a risk than diphtheria, tetanus and pertussis?
What actual scientific evidence do you have that the MMR is worse than measles, mumps or rubella?
Why is pertussis and haemophilus influenzae so horrible for babies, even when they are breastfed?
Please do not use personal anecdotes, news reports or essays from random websites. Thank you.
(Also, please indicate who you are quoting, that is usually done by saying something like “Dana said “. Because it is difficult to figure out who you are addressing, and which comment you are quoting… Due to the lack of this basic courtesy your comment at 11:07 makes absolutely no sense.. what initial article?)
Random useless observation — I’ve been reading Dr. Hall’s book. My kids went to the exact same public elementary school she attended (she grew up not far from where I live). When I see her talk in the next couple of weeks I’ll ask her if she went to the same public high school my kids go to (the one which can boast two Nobel prize winners, the most recent one being the 2004 prize in medicine).
“why are those two diseases so horrible to babies”
You mean what – IF THEY GET IT???
Breastfeeding a baby transfers temporary immunity to the baby until his system begins to do its job on its own. This transfer of immunity happens while the baby is developing as well. Case in point, anecdotal again of course, but my now 3 year old was exposed to the chicken pox at a birthday party when she was only a year old (still breastfed). I waited for her to get the pox. She had sat in this child’s lap on the floor, played with him all over his house…yet she didn’t get the CP until 2 years later. Did I mention that the child was vaccinated for the pox already? Or that the party occurred when he and his 4 cousins were MOST contagious.
So few American women breastfeed their babies. If they are not breastfed then the chance they are unprotected is higher but its not known as to how long the protection lasts.
These two diseases are “so horrible” to babies because babies immune systems are not as strong as they need to be to fight these diseases. Their other *systems* are not yet mature either.
Why is disease horrible? I don’t know, pray about it maybe you’ll dream up an answer.
“Because our schools make use of them (yes, they are public). My kids were often required to bring in a news report each week. Sometimes for social studies, and sometimes for science.”
No poor kids in your school huh? Or did they send NewsWeek home with the kids every week? Forbes possibly? I live in an agricultural area, very rural. Our schools are crowded and mostly failing, one of them mostly crowded with children of illegal parents. Nevertheless, only few of these kids parents’ would buy that type of reading material.
I wish all schools could be like yours. It sounds like it would make for interesting homework.
Please answer my questions with real science. Your comment at 12:09 contained only anecdote, and no science.
Sorry – let me correct my writing —
“So why is it a “scare tactic” to remind folks of what used to happen? You claimed to be vaccinated for smallpox, which was last given over thirty years ago… so you have to remember the mumps, and even measles — including twenty years ago when it returned and over 120 Americans died. Something that seems to be happening again.”
“Something that seems to be happening again.”
Your own posts suggest that not a single American DIED from Mumps or Measles two years ago:
cases deaths
2006_______55______ NA
2006_____6584______ NA
Yet you say it seems to be “happening again”
What???
Please answer my questions with real science. Your comment at 12:09 contained only anecdote, and no science.
OK, I’ll look it up for you but bare with me, I’m doing two things at once but I’ll get to it.
You seem to be moving goalposts, and changing your own words.
Dana said at 10:04 ” “Your own posts suggest that not a single American got Mumps or Measles two years ago:”
Then using the same table restated at 12:22 “Your own posts suggest that not a single American DIED from Mumps or Measles two years ago:”
May I repeat, “NA” means that the information is “Not available”… I said no such thing. This is something you would know if you had gone to original reference, or could read for comprehension.
Then at 12:16 am Dana said “I live in an agricultural area, very rural. Our schools are crowded and mostly failing, one of them mostly crowded with children of illegal parents. Nevertheless, only few of these kids parents’ would buy that type of reading material.”
Excuses, excuses… being in a rural area did not affect this person:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonnie_J._Dunbar … or this person:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherman_Alexie … same goes for William O. Douglas and Edward R. Murrow (I am at my URL limit, you can figure out who those people are yourself!).
(also, the local newspaper is available in the schools, and if you are using the Internet like you are now, you have access to news… you have no excuse to not be up on current events)
By the way, I have nothing against homeschoolers. It is very common here. My older son’s speech therapist home schooled her boys (she is from near Dr. Dunbar’s hometown, which is near where my father grew up… which is not far from where William O. Douglas grew up and went to school). My neighbor writes computer instruction courses on biology and evolution for homeschoolers. But, unlike you, these are people who know what they are doing.
What I do dislike are those who claim to know lots of stuff but fail to back it up. So far you have pushed lots of notions but absolutely no data or evidence. Fix that, answer my questions with real scientific evidence. That means statistically significant studies that prove your point.
Show us that you can think for yourself and not just broadcast the stuff you read on your anti-vaccine Yahoo or email group. Show us that you know what real science is, and can actually interpret a study.
“One would hope that you as your son’s teacher would keep up with current events.”
I am one of more than a dozen teachers he will have this year (4th grade). But even in public schools, surely you don’t think the teachers in my local elementary school would be going over something so controversial as vaccines do you? With 4th graders?
I’ve met parents who would refuse to let a 9 year old watch the news, stating that they are too young to watch…not me. My 9 year old will argue politics with you, he’s well aware of current events.
A big portion of the adults in this town probably don’t even watch the news. But they can tell you about Brittany – and their kids can too. Some of them may or may not even recognize that there is a difference in their “local” news or their “world” news…they have that little experience watching.
I realize its far from the world in which you live but these sort of rural towns do exist.
Dana said “OK, I’ll look it up for you but bare with me”
The phrase is traditionally “bear with me”, I have no interest in seeing you without clothing:
http://www.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/bare.html
Dana said “I’ve met parents who would refuse to let a 9 year old watch the news, stating that they are too young to watch…not me. My 9 year old will argue politics with you, he’s well aware of current events.”
Good, but the quote you used was “One would hope that you as your son’s teacher would keep up with current events.”
How does that infer anything about your son watching the news? It said for YOU to keep up with current events. Please work on your reading comprehension.
About breastfeeding and a little about what happens when we try to eliminate a wild virus:
http://www.usaid.gov/our_work/global_health/mch/ch/techareas/breastfeed_brief.html
________________________________________________
I like this post written by someone I speak to often…
http://messageboards.ivillage.com/iv-ppvaccinedb/?msg=4148.30
it includes a link with interesting information and sources.
________________________________________________
http://www.hpakids.org/holistic-health/articles/11/1/Immunology-of-Breastmilk
________________________________________________
Gee, I’m thinking you can just do a search yourself can’t you?
________________________________________________
Answer me this – How many hours would you say a MD has to study the topic of breastfeeding in his or her practice?
________________________________________________
“Excuses, excuses… being in a rural area did not affect this person:”
Oh. Good. Grief. Do you now want me to debate the fact that these poor people do not care about the news. Not enough to spend money on it? I’m not making excuses – I’m telling you what the excuses of these people are. WTF?
“Please work on your reading comprehension.”
Work on yours! I’ve stated quite plainly that my 9 year old will debate you on current events including politics. Find me a rural GA just entering 4th grade public schooler who even talks to adults – much less debate them.
The phrase is traditionally “bear with me”, I have no interest in seeing you without clothing:
Okay well let me retract that statement and change it to hold your f’n horses.
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/4743.php
http://www.kellymom.com/newman/how_breastmilk_protects_newborns.html
Dana.
Scientific medicine supports breast feeding, and all the major professional organizations recommend it. Passive antibodies offer some protection but are not a guarantee. Yes, babies are susceptible to measles before they are old enough to get the vaccine, but if every child got MMR at the appropriate age then the disease would die out iin the whole society and babies would never be exposed. If everyone were vaccinated, measles would eventually vanish and then we would no longer have to use the vaccine. That’s what happened with smallpox: we got vaccinated so our descendents would never have to be vaccinated again.
Also, you seem to be hung up on the fact that not everyone who is exposed gets a disease. Perhaps it will help to think of it like car accidents: not everyone who speeds has an accident. Who catches a disease depends on a lot of factors, including chance and luck.
It is very sad when a parent’s misguided beliefs lead to a child’s death, like the chiropractor I know of who treated his child’s meningitis with spinal manipulation. If you don’t vaccinate your children against tetanus, chances are they will be lucky and never get it. But they might. If you don’t insure your house, chances are you will be lucky and your house will never burn down. But it might. If you are willing to bear the consequences of losing your house, then don’t buy insurance. If you are willing to bear the consequences of a child getting tetanus, then don’t vaccinate.
Tetanus only affects one individual. The problem is when not vaccinating for some other diseases, not vaccinating your child endangers the public health of us all.
“The law DOES require doctors to report vaccine reactions.”
Really, can you copy and paste it here for all to see?
“You seem to be badly misinformed.”
No, I am not. Prove me wrong – please.
“Where are you getting your information?”
From the old practice I used to use with over 30 Pediatricians and from the new practice I use which only has 4. And from countless letters and emails to the CDC, AAP and a couple of state reps (who also did not know that reactions are not reported).
When my son’s chicken pox vaccine failed, I was told that the doctors do not have time for the paperwork…and besides, we don’t know for sure if it was just a vaccine “failure” or if it were a “reaction”. How does one report that???
You would THINK that the fact that a vaccinated child got exactly what he was supposedly protected against would warrant some sort of system in place. Don’t they WANT TO KNOW how many failures occur and wouldn’t they WANT TO KNOW if a particular vaccine had a high failure rate. One would think so. BUT NO! I wrote to the CDC and ask them exactly how they got their numbers when they spouted off about how low vaccine failures were…they got the numbers from a couple of trials. ONE of those trials – at least one – only had 10 (ten) participants!
In other words, when you read the word “rare” – you would be sadly mistaken to believe they have evidence of this. They do not.
And if its a law then the courts would be FULL of cases right now – just wait until parents find out about all the law-breaking that’s been going on in the medical industry. It is not a law, if it is then it is not followed. I am speaking for more than just my state – it is NOT obeyed if it is a law. They neither have time or money in a typical pediatric practice to fill out this paperwork.
I have spoken to countless parents on the internet who were angry because they themselves had to fill out the paperwork and send it to VAERS. Many stated that the Pediatrician himself said that the adverse reaction occurred but told the parent to do the paperwork. A few of them said the doctor would refuse to admit that an adverse reaction even happened. We all know this happens constantly. So there’s your reporting system! Even the very obvious reactions do NOT get reported.
But hey, the professionals can get away with this by brushing aside any and ALL “anecdotal evidence”!
If there’s a law then its certainly not being obeyed. I would love to see it in writing. If you believe this nonsense then I am sure you will provide it here for us all to see.
And while you’re at it, include some information about the vaccine reporting/non-reporting police who are out there daily, checking Pediatric Practices all over the country to insure that the paperwork is kept up!!!
“Passive antibodies offer some protection but are not a guarantee.”
Vaccines are certainly no guarantee.
“Scientific medicine supports breast feeding”
They support it, but just ten years ago – how much of a student’s time is actually spent studying it when they go to medical school? Even an OBGYN – how much time?
We can put it in writing for hospital staff, even train nurses to help the Mom learn the skill — but in many hospitals, its done only when the Mom requests the help. Small hospitals do not even have staff trained to help. I’ve heard stories of staff who are supposedly trained but know so very little. My own story tells THAT tale!
You seem to think like a politician and believe that because something is in writing that its actually practiced. I don’t live in that make believe world! I’m angry at the government and at the medical community because they are failing the human race by allowing all these politics to change the very core of what it means to be a physician.
Dana, I asked for real science, not random websites. And you did NOT answer my question, cut and pasted:
Since you claim to know more than us, can you tell me how well breastfeeding protects against pertussis and haemophilus influenzae? If breastmilk protects so well, why are those two diseases so horrible to babies? I really want to know.
Over a dozen babies in the USA die from pertussis, from http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/Slides/Pertussis10.ppt#9 … Slide 9. Of the 82 deaths from pertussis during 2004 through 2006, 69 were of infants under the age of three months, while the remaining 13 were older than three months.
So again, if breastmilk is so great, why did those 69 babies die?
By the way, all of my children were breastfed for at least a year, the younger up to two years. And still, my fully breastfed daughter got very sick from chicken pox when she was six months old.
I looked on the USAID website and the HPAkids website, and pertussis is not even mentioned, and I did not even see any references. Message boards do not even count as a scientific evidence. How does that answer my question?
Where is the real evidence that the DTaP is worse than pertussis, diphtheria and tetanus? Where is the real scientific evidence that the MMR is worse than measles, mumps and rubella?
Also, I said real science, not random websites. The websites you mentioned are not adequate and not science papers. Please try harder.
Thank you.
Also, since you seem to have access to the internet even in your rural area you have absolutely no excuse to not keep up with the news. If you wish to fully educate your children you need to know what happens in the world. That includes knowing what happened in the UK and Japan when vaccination was reduced below herd immunity. If your son participates in Little League you would have heard that measles from Japan spread to other people:
http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSN2146005020080221
Plus, even rural areas have these awesome places called “libraries”. I’ve used the library in a very rural mountanous area just on the east slope of the Cascades (not far from where William O. Douglass grew up). My sister-in-law worked for the county library in Colorado that included some very rural areas. About ten years ago some idiots wanted to cut taxes by closing all the libraries in their rural Eastern Washington county. This caused a big uproar among all the homeschoolers in the area who depended on their local libraries (which are able to bring materials from all over the county). They defeated that idiocy in the voting booth, and the libraries stayed open.
Libraries are great resources… use and support your local library. And if you are unfortunate to not have a library in your county, get together with you local homeschooling organization and fix that problem!
Dana said (do you see how easy it is to credit the quote, please try it): “They support it, but just ten years ago – how much of a student’s time is actually spent studying it when they go to medical school? Even an OBGYN – how much time?”
My boys were born 20 and 18 years ago, breastfeeding was definitely encouraged. When my oldest boy was transported by ambulance from the hospital he was born in to the Children’s Hospital’s Infant Intensive Care Unit… the maternity care nurse came to my room with a breast pump to help me provide him breast milk.
During the next week while my newborn baby was in the hospital I used the breast pumps that were available for use near the infant care wards (my son was transferred to the Intermediate Infant Care Unit). They also provided me references to where I could rent a breast pump to use at home.
Both hospitals had nurses who helped with lactating, and even after I brought him home there was follow-up that helped with nursing. The only bottles that baby got were the two ounces used to give him his medication (one ounce in the morning and one in the evening, the minimum amount that could be mixed up is two ounces).
Also, don’t pull the “I’m in a rural area” whine. That Children’s Hospital provides care for several states. In the ward my son was there were babies (and families) from Alaska, Idaho and Montana. In the subsequent times my son was hospitalized there I met parents from some very rural areas.
You are still making statements without evidence. It seems that your knowledge on medicine, medical care, breastfeeding support and other things are very shallow. You need to expand your education. I would suggest that you stay off the internet, go to your library and start working through the lists of books I posted.
“not vaccinating your child endangers the public health of us all.”
Cause what, you don’t trust the vaccine to PROTECT you?
Cause all us unvaccinated are walking around carrying disease that will cause your vaccine to what – not work?
There is no logic in that statement, none at all.
Actually, all you vaccinated people are endangering MY health and the health of future generations.
The women in the breastfeeding studies that proved to temporarily pass the immunities from disease to their nursing infants were women who actually got the disease. We don’t yet know if the same will occur in women who got the vaccine instead of the actual diseases.
A recent study suggests that the cases of Shingles among the elderly and the cases among the not yet elderly are a DIRECT link to the vaccine. They say that when a parent is exposed to the virus (via kids and grandkids) that it helps to surpress the Shingles. I’m glad I got my two exposures and I’m glad I got the real disease as a child.
“If you are willing to bear the consequences of a child getting tetanus, then don’t vaccinate.”
Tell me. Why don’t we use the immunoglobulin vaccine to treat a patient in an emergency situation instead of giving the multiple childhood doses knowing they wear off, knowing patients don’t get boosters.
Aren’t most doctors able to properly flush a wound and remove the dirt?
I mean, gee look at how low the risk is!
The reason there were no deaths from Tetanus last year and the years prior is because we birth babies in clean conditions, we LIVE in clean conditions, We CLEAN our wounds properly with running water which did not exist in the past. The risk of contracting Tetanus for most Americans is EXTREMELY LOW. Yet we won’t pull not ONE vaccine from the schedule.
It’s sickening.
Babies do not need this vaccine. Adults in the Military and in the medical profession and a few other professions do.
There is an emergency vaccine for Tetanus. Nobody seems to know about it though. It’s not part of the vaccine-pushing protocol.
Why does it have to be all or nothing in this country??? We treat all patients like they are the same, we treat all students as if they all have the same learning style. Round peg in square hole is NOT working, yet we keep doing it, year after year after year.
Dana,
You are rapidly becoming tiresome. We do virtually no moderating of comments on SBM, but your flooding the comments with antivax talking points and misinformation is rapidly reaching the point where you are bringing down the level of discourse that we try to maintain here.
Your offense is not disagreeing with us, by the way, it is flooding the comments with long antivax screeds and thus trying to drown out voices who disagree with you.
“Dana, the story I linked to was about 145 deaths a year due to chicken pox in the 1990’s before the vaccine was introduced in 1995.”
I’ve read some stuff that suggest the real killer was the treatment of the disease, and not the disease itself. Its really interesting reading. I’ll try to find something.
I also have some books that say we should not be treating fevers accompanied by skin rash with any type of OTC pain relievers or fever reducers.
Oh OK fine. I just tried to answer all the questions asked of me. Too bad nobody in return bothered to answer mine with any solid evidence.
Nice! Really!
Dana said (see how easy that is? Try it!): “A recent study suggests that the cases of Shingles among the elderly and the cases among the not yet elderly are a DIRECT link to the vaccine. ”
Please tell us what that study was. Give us the title, author, journal, data and whatever needed for us to check it out.
Dana said earlier in an attempt to answer my questions: “Gee, I’m thinking you can just do a search yourself can’t you?”
Actually, I contend that vaccines are safer than the diseases and save money. They also prevent disability and death. The reasons I have those opinions are due to these papers:
http://archpedi.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/159/12/1136, which is:
Arch Pediatr Adolesc Med. 2005 Dec;159(12):1136-44.
Economic evaluation of the 7-vaccine routine childhood immunization schedule in the United States, 2001. … “Routine childhood immunization with the 7 vaccines was cost saving from the direct cost and societal perspectives, with net savings of 9.9 billion dollars and 43.3 billion dollars, respectively. Without routine vaccination, direct and societal costs of diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis, H influenzae type b, poliomyelitis, measles, mumps, rubella, congenital rubella syndrome, hepatitis B, and varicella would be 12.3 billion dollars and 46.6 billion dollars, respectively.”
and:
http://archpedi.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/160/3/302 , which is:
Arch Pediatr Adolesc Med. 2006 Mar;160(3):302-9.
Impact of specific medical interventions on reducing the prevalence of mental retardation…. “Approximately 1 in 1000 children with clinical measles develops encephalitis.36, 39 Although most children with encephalitis recover without sequelae, approximately 15% die and 25% of survivors develop complications such as MR.39 We assumed that approximately 1 in 5000 cases of measles leads to MR. “… “With regard to natural history, Hib meningitis was once the leading cause of acquired MR in the United States. Slightly more than half of the Hib meningitis invasive cases presented as meningitis, and one third of children with Hib meningitis went on to have MR. Approximately 1 in 10 children died from Hib meningitis.12, 39
Effective conjugate vaccines were licensed for use in the United States for children aged at least 18 months in December 1987 and for infants aged at least 2 months in October 1990.42 Widespread use of each vaccine quickly followed licensure, and by 1993, there was evidence of a dramatic decrease in the number of cases of Hib meningitis.42 ”
If you have anything of this caliber that shows that vaccines are causing more problems than the diseases, then please present it. Remember, no anecdotes, no news stories, no message boards and no random websites… just real scientific evidence.
Dana continued on the same strain: “Answer me this – How many hours would you say a MD has to study the topic of breastfeeding in his or her practice?”
Well, breastfeeding is a hot research subject. A search on PubMed for “breastfeeding” brings up over 26000 hits.
By the way, I missed the Mescape article: pertussis and Hib are not HIV, I know you may have been confused by the similarity between HIV and Hib… and the question was why even with breastfeeding do those babies die?
Also, “kellymom” is not a scientific journal.
Also, some recommended reading for you and your son:
Roald Dahl’s autobiography “Boy”
Lois Lowry’s “The Silent Boy”
J507.2 Sw246N 2001 Nibbling on Einstein’s brain : the good, the bad & the bogus in science /
FIG HADDEN The curious incident of the dog in the night-time / by Haddon, Mark. Book
And for you:
362.42 Deaf like me / by Spradley, Thomas S.
610.92 T6979o 2004 On call : a doctor’s days and nights in residency /
610.92 Y843Y 2004 What patients taught me : a medical student’s journey /
616.85882 G885U 2007 Unstrange minds : remapping the world of autism /
618.928588 COL Not even wrong : adventures in autism / Paul Collins
B G378L 2004 Making time : Lillian Moller Gilbreth, a life beyond “C
977.031 L3354C 2004 The children’s blizzard /
FIC MOON The speed of dark /
Dana said “Oh OK fine. I just tried to answer all the questions asked of me. Too bad nobody in return bothered to answer mine with any solid evidence.
Nice! Really!”
But you never did answer any of my questions with real scientific evidence.
I also gave you lots of papers showing how reduction of vaccination brought back the return of measles to Japan and diphtheria to former Soviet countries. How is that not solid evidence? In addition there were news reports on the spread of polio from Nigeria and that measles was now endemic to the UK. Those were only news reports, but still it shows that diseases come back when vaccines go down.
I also showed that vaccines save money by reducing hospital and medical costs of treating the actual diseases, and that measles and mumps do cause disability and death.
I also gave a link to a table of a real paper that showed that unvaccinated kids do get tetanus from things like bug bits and scrapes… and the table also showed how may days and weeks they were on a ventilator.
I also showed you how pertussis still kills babies under the age of three months. And yet for some reason you think breastfeeding is the only protecting they need.
I also produced a list suggested reading that have much information on the diseases, history of the diseases and the development of medicine in relation to those diseases.
And yet, you produce websites of questionable accuaracy that do not relate to the questions at all. Also, you whine about where you live and the lack of resources — all the time while posting on the internet (by the way, our county library also lets you check out electronic books, which would save a drive).
And some of the websites that looked scientific were questionable. For instance, a check on PubMed for “breastfeeding HIV” brings up almost 1500 cites. One of them was ” Acta Paediatr. 2008 Jul 30. [Epub ahead of print]
Early cessation of breastfeeding to prevent postnatal transmission of HIV: a recommendation in need of guidance.”
Is it our fault that you have a closed mind and refuse to look at evidence and documentation counter to your beliefs?
Dana has thrown out so many false and misleading statements it would be too time-consuming to respond to every one. I’ll just say a few things:
Doctors are required by the National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act of 1986 to report adverse reactions to vaccines. You can look it up.
“Vaccines are certainly no guarantee.” No one said they were. They greatly reduce the risk but do not eliminate it. They can only eliminate the risk in cases like smallpox where high vaccination rates allowed the eradication of the disease.
Scientific medicine supported breast feeding far more than 10 years ago. I don’t think there was ever a time when breast-feeding was not recommended over bottle-feeding, although science does recognize that bottle-feeding is a reasonable option for women who can’t or don’t want to breast feed.
Dana does not see the logic behind the statement that not vaccinating your child endangers the public health of us all. That shows that Dana has failed to understand the concept of herd immunity.
Dana seems to think that there is a difference between immunity derived from having a disease and immunity due to vaccination. Is there? We can measure both kinds of immunity by the same blood test. The numbers and kinds of antibodies are equivalent. Is there any evidence that a vaccinated woman’s breast milk is less protective than the breast milk of a woman who had the disease? I don’t think so.
Dana thinks immunoglobulin is a vaccine. It isn’t. It’s essentially a one-time infusion of antibodies; once they are used up, the body doesn’t produce any more. It is far better to prevent tetanus with a vaccine than to give immunoglobulin. It’s ridiculous to say that nobody knows about immunoglobulin, because it’s standard medical practice to use it for unvaccinated patients and when a patient’s vaccination status is unknown
Hygiene does not prevent tetanus, although it reduces the risk. Even in vaccinated patients, there is good evidence to support giving a tetanus booster even after thoroughly cleaning a contaminated wound.
Dana’s objections to vaccines are ideological, poorly reasoned, and not supported by credible evidence from scientific studies. This kind of thinking has led to the recent resurgence of vaccine-preventable diseases. If this kind of thinking had been allowed to interfere with smallpox vaccination, smallpox would not have been eradicated. If it were not for this kind of thinking, we might already have succeeded in totally eradicating diseases like polio and measles. And then we could do what Dana wants and not vaccinate for those diseases.
Anti-vaccine propaganda is not just a matter of a difference in opinion, it’s a threat to our public health. These are dangerous ideas that can hurt and kill people.
“According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, only 2.1% of adults aged 18 to 64 are immunized against tetanus, diphtheria and whooping cough, even though since 2006 there has been a combination vaccine that can protect against all three.”
2.1% of adults – what’s the level for so-called herd immunity?
One problem is a lack of any national system to promote and monitor adult vaccination. While the federal Vaccines for Children Program provides vaccines at no cost to children who can’t afford them, and carefully monitors supply and demand, “the infrastructure to ensure the adult-vaccination pipeline is woefully inadequate,” says L.J. Tan, director, Infectious Disease, Immunology, and Molecular Medicine at the AMA. He says there is currently little coordination between federal public health agencies, private medical providers, and the private companies that make adult vaccines.
“Anti-vaccine propaganda is not just a matter of a difference in opinion, it’s a threat to our public health. These are dangerous ideas that can hurt and kill people.”
I disagree. These are dangerous ideas that do hurt and kill people.
Two more points:
I’ve been practicing medicine over 24 years, and all the cases of shingles I’ve seen have been from chickenpox not the vaccine. That does not mean it can’t occur after the vaccine as it is a live virus vaccine.
I wonder how Dana would feel about getting serum sickness from immunoglobulin.
The FDA limits the concentration of aluminum in IV feeding solutions to twenty-five micrograms per liter. Consider that an adult on an IV would receive about a liter per day; this means the maximum amount of aluminum that an adult should receive in a particular day is twenty-five micrograms.
Robert Sears, one of the Sears family clan of physicians, recently published The Vaccine Book: Making the Right Decision for Your Child. He points out that a two-month-old baby receiving her first big round of shots will receive a total aluminum dose of 295 to 1875 micrograms, depending upon the brands and combinations of vaccines given. The same applies to the shots commonly given at four and six months of age. “No one has actually studied vaccine amounts of aluminum in healthy human infants to make sure it is safe have they?
Dana wrote “According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, only 2.1% of adults aged 18 to 64 are immunized against tetanus, diphtheria and whooping cough,”
Again, you quote something without saying where it is from.
I am not vaccinated for pertussis because I got my Td tetanus booster in February 2005, and the Tdap was not available until October 2006:
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5540a10.htm
Now if everyone updated their tetanus booster every ten years, and it the Tdap has only been used on adults since Oct. 2006, why would you expect everyone to rush and and get the Tdap less than ten years after the Td? It would seem that only 20% of those who do keep up their tetanus boosters would have had the Tdap. Unfortunately, not everyone keeps their tetanus boosters up to date. As shown here, a bit over half of the adults keep up their tetanus coverage:
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/stats-surv/nis/downloads/nis-adult-summer-2007.pdf … by the way there was a reminder in the newspaper today for gardeners to make sure their tetanus boosters were current.
So when did you last have a Td tetanus booster? Are you going to get a Tdap to protect yourself and your children?
(by the way, all three of my teenage children have had the Tdap vaccine, it was the first time my oldest has received protection for pertussis, it had been denied to him earlier due to his seizure history)
About NSAID’s
http://www.garynull.com/documents/Vaccines/ChickenPoxWhy.htm
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/106/2/e28
Dana,
If you are afraid of Aluminum, you can look for vaccines that have lower Aluminum content. Your IV solution example is a little strange. What’s the point? Why are you trying to dehydrate someone by giving them only a liter of fluid a day? Aluminum is not a daily requirement. You can feed a person via IV indefinitely. You don’t give the vaccines on a daily basis.
Don’t worry, I only have a few more. I was working on your replies yesterday and never sent the information. Instead of taking too much of your space to back-up what I’ve said, I’ll just send links that have sources.
You asked me what toxic ingredients were in the vaccines. Well here’s your list:
http://www.informedchoice.info/cocktail.html
It can be verified by reading the package inserts for each shot.
weing
I was trying to post only a short post so I didn’t include it all.
Yes, it is a little strange. Strange that the government would allow so much in the vaccines but then regulate the very small amount to be given in adult IV’s.
You missed the point. Do you know how to add?
Chickenpox
Look back to the time of the earliest humans and you’ll find chickenpox. Anywhere you go on the planet, you find human beings who carry and share the virus. No remote village or tribe on Earth has ever been discovered to be free of this virus. Quite an achievement! For the virus…
Scientists have studied small, isolated populations, trying to understand how the virus survives; it has a unique survival strategy we call “shingles”.
There are some viruses that need a large pool of humans for successful survival. Once everyone has had the disease, the virus will actually “die out” as a result of herd immunity. This is one reason why big cities have always been joyous playing grounds for disease. A never-ending supply of new bodies keeps flowing in, ready to catch whatever is currently going around. Put that same virus in a tiny and unchanging population on a remote island and the new bodies will quickly run out. Once everyone has been infected and become immune, the virus has nowhere to go and disease transmission is stopped. End of the road for that bug.
No end to chickenpox, though. It has an amazing method of ensuring that the next generation of humans will be infected. Here is an example of how it works: Amongst the isolated crofters of the Shetland Islands off the coast of Scotland in the early 1900’s, where the families lived far away from one another, the kids caught chickenpox, not from other children who caught it from other children, but from an adult with shingles. (1)
Shingles
Most people on this planet had chickenpox as children, but not everyone comes down with shingles. Before the vaccine it was mainly an affliction of old age. Those who died before age 50 missed out, and even those who lived to be quite elderly had no more than a 50% chance of having shingles.
Merck: What is Shingles?
About half of the nearly 1 million Shingles cases in the United States each year occur in people aged 60 years and older. 1 out of 2 people living to age 85 will have Shingles.
Merck: Who is at risk for Shingles?
Of these 1,000,000 cases, 40% to 50% occur in people 60 years of age and older.
Aside from folks who live a long time, who else is likely to succumb to shingles?
Let’s review some studies:
Pediatricians come down with shingles at one-half to one-eighth of the usual rate. (2) People with kids get less shingles. (3) If regular exposure to children with chickenpox prevents shingles, and varicella infection is found in every population on earth, then lack of exposure to children with chickenpox can logically be inferred to indirectly cause shingles. The mechanism is demonstrated here (4):
Resistance to reinfection with varicella-zoster virus (VZV) was evaluated in immune adults who had household exposure to varicella. Sixty-four percent of 25 adults exposed to varicella had a fourfold or greater rise in IgG antibody to VZV or had a high initial IgG antibody titer to VZV that declined by fourfold. IgM antibody was detected in only 12% of 25 VZV-immune subjects. Seventy percent of 23 subjects exposed to varicella had IgA antibody to VZV compared with 13% of 23 subjects with antibody to VZV who had no recent exposure (P less than 0.001, chi 2 test). Enhanced cellular immunity was documented by an increase in lymphocyte transformation to VZV antigen from a mean +/- SE index of 7.8 +/- 1.30 to 15.3 +/- 2.56 (P = 0.01, paired t-test). The increase in immunity to VZV in many immune subjects exposed to VZV suggests the occurrence of subclinical reinfection.
and here (5):
Whether reexposure of varicella-immune persons to varicella-zoster virus would protect against or predispose to development of zoster was analyzed. The rate of zoster in 511 leukemic recipients of varicella vaccine who had 1 or > 1 dose of varicella vaccine and in those who did or did not have a household exposure to varicella was determined. A Kaplan-Meier life-table analysis revealed that the incidence of zoster was lower in those given > 1 dose of vaccine (P 1 dose of vaccine were highly protective (P < .01) against zoster. Thus, the risk of zoster is decreased by reexposure to varicella-zoster virus, either by vaccination or by close exposure to varicella.
So, someone had chickenpox as a child. They encounter a child with chickenpox. Their immunity to the virus is boosted. Later, when this same person’s immune system goes down a bit, from age or any other cause, and the virus attempts to come crawling out of latency and re-emerge as shingles, the virus fails. No shingles. There is another factor, described here (6):
Periodic episodes of subclinical reactivation of VZV from the ganglia occur through an individual’s lifetime, serving as immune boosters that increase the cell-mediated immune response to VZV… elderly adults have similar episodes of transient asymptomatic VZV viremia…. host factors are more important in determining whether the individual with a latent infection develops symptomatic VZV reactivation as HZ.
Host factors include overall health and immune function. We can hope that elderly people in vigorous health may be able to continue to avoid shingles even in the absence of circulating chickenpox, but the future is uncertain. Before the vaccine for chickenpox, 50% of the small group who lived 85 years or longer did so without experiencing zoster. This good fortune may or may not continue.
For a lot of us, however, lack of exposure to chickenpox, means waning immunity and the likelihood that the lurking chickenpox virus will reemerge as shingles. All adults over age (60) are recommended to receive Zostavax, a souped up version of the chickenpox vaccine, because the manufacturers hope it will mimic previous community exposure to chickenpox and put a stop to the growing incidence of shingles among adolescents, adults and older people.
Some questions spring to mind…
What has mass vaccination against chickenpox in children really done to shingles in adults? Is the emerging trend of dealing with shingles at an ever earlier age, a good tradeoff? Is a lifetime of vaccines to prevent this the true path to optimum health? The Brits are currently trying to decide this question–whether to add or not to add the varicella vaccine to their schedule. (7)
The group discussed published data from the USA. These studies indicate that mass childhood vaccination has reduced the incidence of varicella. The data are also consistent with modelling studies that have predicted an increase in zoster as a result of reduced virus prevalence and hence decreased opportunities for boosting of immunity to zoster by natural infection. In two studies where varicella rates were shown to decrease, there was also a significant increase in zoster post varicella vaccination.
The group noted, however, that the available USA data are not sufficiently robust to be able to estimate the full impact of vaccination.
This isn’t the end of the thrill ride we’re on with the chickenpox vaccine. No, the vaccine can actually cause shingles! (8)
Results. All of 57 vaccinees with breakthrough varicella, clinically diagnosed on the basis of a generalized maculopapular or vesicular rash, had wild-type VZV infection based on analysis of viral DNA. The Oka vaccine strain of VZV was not identified in any of these cases. In contrast, in 32 patients with zosteriform rashes, the vaccine strain was identified in 22 samples, and the wild-type strain was identified in 10 samples. Conclusions. Wild-type virus was identified in all generalized rashes occurring after the immediate 6-week postvaccination period. When reactivation of vaccine strain occurred, it presented as typical zoster.
Chickenpox vaccination can and does result in shingles outbreaks. And if anyone in the world has shingles they can infect another person with chickenpox. The shingles–chickenpox–shingles cycle guarantees that we will have to vaccinate everyone against chickenpox forever and ever or chickenpox will return. That sums up the benefits of the chickenpox vaccine and leaves us wondering, what unforeseen consequences might Zostavax (the shingles vaccine) have hidden under its belt?
The varicella virus has adapted over millions of years to re-emerge as shingles (herpes zoster) in elderly adults. Adding the vaccine into the equation seems to push shingles into younger age groups. Will we have repeated shingles throughout life? Will that mean repeated Zostavax boosters down through the years? One scientist thinks so and recommends this (6):
…the more effective the varicella vaccine is in reducing varicella, the more imperative is the need for an effective zoster vaccine as a means of boosting VZV-specific cell immunity responses…
…therefore health officials need to devise a cost-effective universal varicella vaccination program in coordination with a zoster booster vaccine intervention strategy that exceeds the level of natural boosting that occurred when wild-type varicella circulated in the community.
Hurrah! Two vaccines. Twice the cost. Twice the risk for adverse reactions. More than twice the risk because we will all need boosters. Start at one year of age with a chickenpox vaccine, boost it at school age, boost again at adolescence (not yet in the schedule, but I wouldn’t be surprised if it was added) and then start giving the zoster boosters to adults. The age of the zoster booster will have to go lower and lower of course, as shingles pops out in younger and younger age groups.
Do we have any say in the matter?
Is this listed on the “Vaccine Information Statement” we’re given to make sure we’re “informed vaccine consumers”?
Why not?
(1) Varicella Zoster Virus: Out of Africa and into the Research Laboratory.
(2) Incidence of herpes zoster in pediatricians and history of reexposure to varicella-zoster virus in patients with herpes zoster.
(3) Exposure to varicella boosts immunity to herpes-zoster: Implications for mass vaccination against chickenpox.
(4) Immunologic evidence of reinfection with varicella-zoster virus.
(5) The protective effect of immunologic boosting against zoster: An analysis in leukemic children who were vaccinated against chickenpox.
(6) Herpes Zoster Ophthalmicus Natural History, Risk Factors, Clinical Presentation, and Morbidity Ophthalmology, Thomas J. Liesegang, Volume 115, Number 2, Supplement, February 2008.
(7) Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation: Minutes of the Varicella / Herpes Zoster sub-group – 4 December 2007
(8) Viral strain identification in varicella vaccinees with disseminated rashes.
“Since you claim to know more than us, can you tell me how well breastfeeding protects against pertussis…”
I don’t know, could it be that the Mom had the vaccine instead the actual virus? I’ve never said that immunity passed from Mom’s vaccine would protect a baby through breastfeeding. I also stated that this immunity is temporary and is different for each baby.
Kellymom’s articles are always backed up with sources, usually Le Leche. I’m sorry if didn’t send you one that included sources – or did you just not go to the bottom and look for them?
I didn’t go to the Le Leche site because I know some people are too ignorant to view them as “a reliable source” even when they include sources that are.
“Also, you whine about where you live and the lack of resources — all the time while posting on the internet (by the way, our county library also lets you check out electronic books, which would save a drive).” My nine year old has better reading comprehension than you. I never whined about where I live, I happen to love it here. All I’ve tried to do is make you see that every single town in America is not like yours. The kids in this town would NOT be expected to bring in an article regarding current world news. If asked THEY would complain that they can’t afford the drive to the library or the newspaper or magazine cost. I never said *I* had any conflict what-so-ever with lack of resources. Clearly I do have a lack of resources. I even have a library card to my local university – and use it very often!
Your personal attacks are not necessary. I only returned to find that one article demonstrating how we are seeing an increased rate of shingles due to lack of natural exposure. If I find it, I’ll return, otherwise I’ve answered all you’ve asked.
You’ll notice that I don’t reply to those assumed threats returning because what happened prior to indoor plumbing will not play out in today’s world.
“Doctors are required by the National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act of 1986 to report adverse reactions to vaccines. You can look it up.”
Words on paper. It is not a law, it is not mandated, it is not practiced. Who do they report to? VAERS? The doctors in this state are under the impression that the *thy shalt fill out paperwork police” are not watching them.
“You will have to read each chapter and check the bibliography at the end.” Yea, I did that. In your mind is that proof of some vaccine reporting agency existing? They get these numbers from trials, very small trials.
In your link, I couldn’t find anything that said those babies were Breastfed. If I’m missing it, please point it out. Thanks.
Contrary to “breast is best” and all the other advertising, the majority of US babies are still formula-fed. If you have something claiming they all breastfeed, I would be interested to see it.
“Dana wrote “According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, only 2.1% of adults aged 18 to 64 are immunized against tetanus, diphtheria and whooping cough,”
“Again, you quote something without saying where it is from.”
Well there goes that lack of reading comprehension again. This part of the sentence was your clue: “According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention”
Dana- if breastfeeding was completely protective against vaccine preventable diseases such as pertussis- as in previous posts you seem to imply- why would we need to vaccinate in countries where the vast majorities of babies are exclusively breastfed for over 1 year? Countries, say in sub-Saharan Africa like Zambia where I spent a year working as a nurse. Where babies are breastfed and yes, they still get measles, pertussis, chicken pox. Why did babies get these diseases long before formula was ever introduced? Breastfeeding alone is not completely protective which is why I breastfed my son but also got him his vaccines.
Dr. Crislip, Dr. Hall – or others please note Dana quotes from Dr. Robert Sear’s Vaccine Book. This book has been read by countless numbers of moms who take his word as gospel truth about vaccines. Please consider reviewing this book- I would love to hear what you have to say about it.
David, I copied the whole Dana stuff to
http://www.transgallaxys.com/~kanzlerzwo/showtopic.php?threadid=4194
Now you can erase here and your blog can sail undisturbed.
Let the party go on in the TG-1. We have anti-vaccs for breakfast.
Yes Weing, I did miss the point. What are you adding? In my statement, a person only needs to realize that a number falling between 295 and 1875 micrograms is larger than 25.
NP Mommy –
How many babies out of how large a population got pertussis.
How many babies did not get pertussis?
Of the babies who did – their Moms all got the natural pertussis disease or no? Did they get vaccinated?
Thanks for making me a place at your breakfast table. I’ll be right on over. Thanks to all those who allowed me to post here, but none of you have posted any links to anything besides what happened in other countries long ago.
I won’t clutter your board anymore with that which none of you can disprove.
Dana,
Your list of toxins in vaccines was debunked at http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=9
I think the time has come to ask you a simple question: would you change your mind and accept that vaccines do more good than harm if we showed you enough convincing evidence?
If no evidence would ever change your mind, we are all wasting our time.
If there were convincing evidence that vaccines did more harm than good, or even that they were unnecessary, we would gladly follow it. We have done so in the past. We no longer give smallpox vaccine; we no longer use oral polio vaccine in the US. Cholera vaccine is not even available in the US. Medical science is constantly reviewing all the available evidence and updating recommendations accordingly. You are wasting your time trying to show us evidence against vaccines, because we’ve seen it all before and have put it into perspective with all the much more convincing evidence supporting vaccines. You don’t have access to any special knowledge that the rest of us don’t. You only have opinions based on reading biased information and information taken out of context by people who are ideologically opposed to vaccines.
No, Dana, this is the place:
http://www.transgallaxys.com/~kanzlerzwo/showtopic.php?threadid=4194
Time for breakfast.
I don’t speak German so I’ll ask here –
Do you, NP Mommy, have the correct figures for the amount of aluminum in vaccines? I mean, since Dr. Robert Sears is not reliable, what are your figures?
We speak English and we speak anti-vaccc.
And your so-called questions are rubbish.
So, why don’t you leave this blog and go where you WILL get answers?
Dana said,
“none of you have posted any links to anything besides what happened in other countries long ago. ”
Umm… does that mean you think what happened in other countries long ago didn’t happen or couldn’t happen again? Isn’t evidence evidence no matter when and where it was obtained? Did it occur to you that maybe it’s easier to find examples in the past and in other countries precisely because vaccines have been so effective in modern America?
Okay then. You can post this one for me too…
Jahrhundertelang hat das Masernvirus ein bemerkenswert beständiges ökologisches Verhältnis zum Mann beibehalten. Die klinische Krankheit ist ein charakteristisches Syndrom der bemerkenswerten Beständigkeit und nur der Moderateschwierigkeit. Komplikationen sind selten und, mit ausreichender medizinischer Behandlung, ist tödlicher Unfall selten.
Aber heute haben wir die gleiche Agentur, eine andere Geschichte zu erklären. Heute erklären sie, wie tot sie… ist und sie sogar wie jeder klingen lässt, das sie stirbt erhält. Pathetische Schreckens-Taktikens
Gee, Dana, ENGLISH is the language.
Oh, and your logic is as kraut as your German.
We don’t live in the past. We live in an era where running water is available and used daily to help keep our environment CLEAN.
So, no, I don’t think we’ll go back to living in those conditions in the US. No, I don’t think we have the same breeding grounds for disease today as we did 100 years ago.
No ama, it’s not in English, its in German. Your link is not in English.
Oh, Dana, Nirvana-hogwash will not lead you anywhere.
Here you will get answers:
http://www.transgallaxys.com/~kanzlerzwo/showtopic.php?threadid=4194
This link is international:
http://www.transgallaxys.com/~kanzlerzwo/showtopic.php?threadid=4194
It is even interstallar.
“So, why don’t you leave this blog and go where you WILL get answers?”
I thought you were the smart people. I guess you’re only smart enough to call my statements rubbish but not smart enough to prove why.
You can not explain why in 1967 the CDC said the measles are not fatal, yet today, most dumb Americans think their child will die if they don’t get that vaccine. They got their information straight from the same source who in 1967 said:
“For centuries the measles virus has maintained a remarkably stable ecological relationship with man. The clinical disease is a characteristic syndrome of notable constancy and only moderate severity. Complications are infrequent, and, with adequate medical care, fatality is rare.”
Why – why is it so deadly today but fatality was so rare back then?
I have the PDF file, was trying to find a website so I could post a link to it.
But you don’t want to have me for breakfast do you? You just want me to go. Are you afraid of reading the articles I post? Are you afraid you’ll be left with nothing but “its rubbish” after reading them?
No, Dana, the answers you will het there:
http://www.transgallaxys.com/~kanzlerzwo/showtopic.php?threadid=4194
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=9
THAT was a scientific article? Where are the sources? I’ve read almost everything posted here. You can not say you’ve read what I’ve posted. I think some people are so dead set on their ideals that even decades later they refuse to read the newest findings.
Sure, I can change my mind. Obviously I’ve already done that. I have one child partially vaccinated, the other has not been. I ask the questions because I want answers. I ask on a board such as this one because I thought I was talking to some open minded individuals. But then you would have to actually read the opposing views to call yourself open minded.
I’ll post two more that I thought were good and then you won’t have to hear from me again. I won’t be visiting the site with words that I must first translate in order to even figure out how to post. You can post the same link all you won’t – that does not change the language of that site to English. Only the posts you copied are in English – nothing else.
http://www.transgallaxys.com/~kanzlerzwo/showtopic.php?threadid=4194
The answers you will get there:
http://www.transgallaxys.com/~kanzlerzwo/showtopic.php?threadid=4194
This script is a nuisance.
For the Good of the Herd
May 20th, 2008
In an era where CDC experts are saying, “Just line up for Gardasil, and you’ll have a 70% reduced chance of getting cancer”, are parents asking any critical questions about the crystal ball gazing abilities of these experts now and in the past? Why is there talk of adding a third MMR vaccine into the childhood schedule, and also putting it into adult vaccination programs as regular boosters?
Will most people just roll up their sleeve, assuming the new ideas will have the good outcome the CDC will predict?
Most of those people won’t know, that in 1967, the CDC said: *
For centuries the measles virus has maintained a remarkably stable ecological relationship with man. The clinical disease is a characteristic syndrome of notable constancy and only moderate severity. Complications are infrequent, and, with adequate medical care, fatality is rare.
Effective use of these vaccines during the coming winter and spring should insure the eradication of measles from the United States in 1967.
Or that it was reported in Time Magazine in 1966 that:
The Federal Government last week declared its determination to eradicate measles from the U.S. in 1967.
Perhaps because measles always seemed to be an unavoidable part of childhood, it has not loomed as threatening as other diseases, and its characteristic red spots have long been the butt of comic-strip jokes.*
Though the disease fighters were hampered by the public’s unconcern, they were helped by some characteristics of the measles virus. There is only one type, as against three for polio. One shot of vaccine made from live but attenuated virus confers lifelong immunity
Explains Dr. Dull: When two-thirds or more of the children in any community are immune, through having had either the disease or vaccination, the measles virus simply dies out.
“It’s unprecedented in the history of preventive medicine to try to eradicate an entire disease in one year,” says Dr. Dull, “but there is good reason to believe it can be done.”
What “good reason” did Drs Sencer, Dull and Langmuir have, to predict:
a ) That one shot would give lifelong immunity?
b ) That when two-thirds of children are immune measles would die out?
c ) That vaccinating a few million children in one year, would “eradicate measles” permanently?
Worldwide, parents were promised that just one shot would eliminate measles, a disease which in developed countries was considered to be relatively mild, even by doctors.
Unknown to most people, new science emerged over the decades, irrefutable facts were quietly changed, goalposts silently shifted, history privately rewritten, until the Canadian Press told the public, in May of 2008:
Before vaccination became commonplace, adults often came in contact with youngsters suffering from mumps, measles and the other childhood diseases. That remained the case in the early days of vaccine administration when these diseases still commonly circulated.
If people had protection – natural or vaccine-acquired – those exposures were actually helpful. They acted as a sort of natural booster shot, reminding the immune system to be on guard for this threat.
The end result of the investigation into the durability of immunity in the vaccine age could be a recognition that adults need booster shots to prevent outbreaks of what we now consider childhood diseases. Osterholm, for one, thinks that’s likely.
What they’re referring to is called “secondary vaccine failure”, an almost paradoxical situation resulting in the more effective vaccines losing effectiveness over time as a direct result of their own initial effectiveness.
For some time after MMR was introduced, the wild viruses still circulated, which artificially inflated the estimated vaccine efficacy, because people who got the vaccine, still encountered the viruses occasionally. With a higher vaccine uptake, the ability for immunity to be “boosted” by natural exposure disappeared. Such logic is being admitted to now, to prepare adults for being re-vaccinated with the MMR throughout their lives.
While most experts want their current wisdom to be assumed “accurate”, the most accurate statement in the Canadian Press article was:
“I don’t think we know much at all,” acknowledges Dr. Samuel Katz.
If you told CDC doctors today, that vaccinating two-thirds of all children one summer would result in a common virus simply dying out, they would laugh in your face. But the belief that vaccinating a few million children in 1967 could eliminate measles, was not questioned in 1966, because neither parents nor experts knew that the assumed “knowledge” about the natural history of disease, the development and maintenance of immunity, and how both meshed together, was fundamentally flawed.
In 2008, the simple popular view of vaccination continues to say, “if you are vaccinated you can neither catch nor spread the disease in question, which is good for everyone.” Every vaccination program is built on the sort of simplistic ideas which jumpstarted the original National Immunization Program. It is assumed that every new vaccine will fulfill it’s predicted potential, and have well researched effectiveness and safety.
Unfortunately, like most simple pictures, this is not the whole story.
Let’s look at another flaw they missed in the equation:
CDC’s Pink Book measles chapter, shows how infants are now more at risk from measles outbreaks in post-mass vaccination societies:
During the 1989–1991 measles resurgence, incidence rates for infants were more than twice as high as those in any other age group. The mothers of many infants who developed measles were young, and their measles immunity was most often due to vaccination rather than infection with wild virus. As a result, a smaller amount of antibody was transferred across the placenta to the fetus, compared with antibody transfer from mothers who had higher antibody titers resulting from wild-virus infection. The lower quantity of antibody resulted in immunity that waned more rapidly, making infants susceptible at a younger age than in the past.
Secondary vaccine failure resulting in increased potential for serious disease in both babies and adults, as a result of mass vaccination, isn’t the only glitch in the vaccine-created herd immunity system, either.
Let’s look at some of the childhood vaccines and see what the “herd effects” are.
DTaP vaccine
* Diphtheria-
From the vaccine’s package insert:
Protection against disease is due to the development of neutralizing antibodies to the diphtheria toxin. Following adequate immunization with diphtheria toxoid, protection persists for at least 10 years. A serum diphtheria antitoxin level of 0.01 IU/mL is the lowest level giving some degree of protection; a level of 0.1 IU/mL is regarded as protective.1 Levels of 1.0 IU/mL are associated with long-term protection.1 Immunization with diphtheria toxoid does not, however, eliminate carriage of C. diphtheriae in the pharynx or nares or on the skin.
From the CDC’s Pink Book chapter on diphtheria:
Although diphtheria disease is rare in the United States, it
appears that Corynebacterium diphtheriae continues to
circulate in areas of the country with previously endemic
diphtheria.
* Tetanus- not a contagious disease, so the question does not apply
* Pertussis-
The evidence appears to indicate that the vaccine does not prevent transmission.
Varicella (chickenpox)
Same as MMR in many ways, but in addition to secondary vaccine failure, vaccine induced herd immunity probably causes a massive increase in shingles.
Hib and Prevnar-
Both vaccines do prevent transmission of vaccine serotypes, but both vaccines have adverse “herd effects” or “consequences”, such as “replacement disease”.
Read more about the replacement effects here, here, and here.
_______________________________________________________________
Summing up:
* In the absence of circulating disease, some vaccines lose their “punch” leaving adults vulnerable to childhood illnesses (consider recent outbreaks of mumps in the U.S. and the U.K.), which are generally more dangerous for grown-ups than for children. When that happens, infants are also born with significantly less passive immunity from their mothers, putting them at risk of serious complications and death, as well.
* Some vaccines do not prevent the transmission of the disease they are supposed to control, making herd immunity something of an oxymoron.
* Some vaccines clear out one disease organism, which is promptly replaced by another disease organism.
The simple picture: “if you are vaccinated you can neither catch nor spread the disease in question” turns out to largely be a overly simplistic fallacy, mostly useful for attacking parents who are perceived to be failing to contribute towards herd immunity because they chose not to vaccinate their children.
While some might ask the question, “How about a vaccination policy based on real scientific facts, for a change?” others might also ask a different question, which is, “Are the facts presented today, to justify new vaccines being introduced, and extending existing childhood vaccines into adult schedules, based on better logic than the CDC “experts” proclaimed in 1966?”
_________________________________________
*bottom of page 254:
“The authors are from the Public Health Service’s National Communicable Disease Center, Atlanta, Ga. Dr. Sencer is chief and Dr Dull is assistant chief of the Center. Dr Langmuir is chief of the Epidemiology Program. This paper was presented at the American Publich Health Association’s meeting in San Francisco, November 1, 1966″.
>You can post the same link all you won’t – that does
>not change the language of that site to English. Only
>the posts you copied are in English – nothing else.
Dana is afraid?
We also speak Dutch, Italian, and French.
Cruel, eyh?
And now: Where is our breakfast!?
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/picrender.fcgi?artid=1919891&blobtype=pdf
The article from 1967
No, no, the answers you will get in the TG-1.
No Spanish or M Chinese?
Well I guess I’m not invited then. Don’t worry, the only people who will ever see this discussion is when I send it to people as an example of what the supposedly educated people do when they don’t have solid evidence to back up their claims. When they don’t have the ability to debate a topic without using bs tactics. It’s not cute, and if cruel tactics don’t work for you its because I’m a little more mature than that.
No hogwash, please.
Answers, as I wrote, you will get in the TG-1.
Okay, David, seems it is time to clean up and delete all the Dana stuff.
Isn’t it fun how the anti-vaccs are afraid of the TG-1?
Yea David, clean up all the evidence. You don’t want anyone coming here and seeing how you evaded every direct question and couldn’t handle one little anti-vaccine debater among all you pro-vaxers.
Ah, Dana is afraid. She fears the answers of the TG-1.
I’ve been there ama there are no answers. It’s been – well I can’t say fun…
Ah, how fearsome.
Ibi sunt dracones!
http://grusskarten.freenet.de/templates/bild/alltag/mr.mood/mr_mood05_320×320.gif
Hmpf, this script…
http://grusskarten.freenet.de/templates/bild/alltag/mr.mood/mr_mood05_320×320.gif
Wordpress DOES have problems with their script.
http://grusskarten.freenet.de/templates/bild/alltag/mr.mood/mr_mood05_320×320.gif
Dana,
You’re right. Measles is not that deadly. Only about 1 out of every 1000 die or have permanent brain damage. Hey, what doesn’t kill your unvaccinated child will make him/her strong. Do I understand your beef with the measles vaccine correctly? Are you saying it’s responsible for more measles in infants because it hasn’t wiped out measles?
Boy, weren’t those docs in 1967 naive?
Do I understand your beef with the measles vaccine correctly? Are you saying it’s responsible for more measles in infants because it hasn’t wiped out measles?
Your words, not mine.
No. that figure is wrong.
The correct one you will get in TG-1.
Dana,
So you are not saying that? Then clarify, please.
Did you read the article I posted about NSAIDS? Have you read anything else like it? I’m curious what you think of it.
Notice when I bring something to the discussion, it’s something COMMON. Not any of this one in a billion chance crap!
Dana said (did you notice that I am showing who I am quoting, it is easy! You should try it!) “Did you read the article I posted about NSAIDS? Have you read anything else like it? I’m curious what you think of it.”
Why? It has nothing to do with vaccines, it is completely off topic and does not contain real science. And really, that website is not considered a real scientific cite. Just like the “kellymom” and “la leche league” are also not scientific cites (and I did go to the bottom of several of you links, and found nothing to tell me why babies still die from pertussis even if they are fed with breast milk, I checked and none of them even had the word “pertussis” included in the whole page!).
I am still waiting for real scientific evidence that shows that the DTaP vaccine is more dangerous than pertussis (which kills more than a dozen American babies each year), diphtheria (which returned and killed thousands of people in former Soviet countries, do you consider 1994 to be “long ago”?), and tetanus.
And I am still waiting for real scientific evidence that shows the MMR is worse than measles (which has returned to the UK, Japan, Switzerland and Austria this year, and causes encephalitis in 1 in 1000, and if it does not kill half of those, it causes severe permanent neurological damage), mumps (which causes deafness and sterility), and rubella.
Also, I still want to know why if breastfeeding imparts such great immunity why did 69 babies under the age of three months die from pertussis in the years 2004 through 2006? Why did it not protect my daughter from chicken pox when she was six months old, and had only had breastmilk (I had chicken pox when I was six years old, surely I had the antibodies)?
Are you ever going to answer my questions with adequate science? And a reminder that anecdotes, random websites, message boards and news reports do not count as scientific cites.
Dana,
Regarding NSAIDs, no I haven’t checked your reference, but I do remember, about 26 years ago, Reye’s syndrome being associated with NSAID use during viral illnesses in children and I have avoided using them with my kids ever since. Is that what you are referring to? Not being a pediatrician, I do not know what the current knowledge on that is. What does that have to do with measles vaccine being the cause of more measles?
Dana said,
“We don’t live in the past. We live in an era where running water is available and used daily to help keep our environment CLEAN.
So, no, I don’t think we’ll go back to living in those conditions in the US. No, I don’t think we have the same breeding grounds for disease today as we did 100 years ago.”
There are plenty of contemporary examples from CLEAN countries like the UK and Japan where vaccination rates dropped and disease rates rose, then people started vaccinating again and disease rates dropped again. Now vaccine-preventable disease rates are rising again in the US. It is impossible to explain away all these facts on the basis of hygiene.
The “herd” article you posted didn’t even get its facts straight. It says death from measles is “rare.” The death rate for healthy people in developed countries is one in a thousand; in third world countries as many as one in four people die. Even if they don’t die, 20% get complications: measles is the leading cause of blindness in children in Africa, and it kills a million children every year around the world.
http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dvrd/revb/measles/measles_general_info.htm
Measles can be eradicated just like smallpox was, but it will require a worldwide vaccination campaign. Thanks to high vaccination rates, measles is now rare in the US with only sporadic cases due to importation from other countries. One imported case can lead to a cluster of cases: it is more likely to spread to the unvaccinated than to the vaccinated, but since the protection is not 100% some vaccinated people will get it too, although usually a milder case.
The facts are different for each vaccine. Some are more important than others. I’d put Gardasil at the bottom of the list.
Dana still does not show up in the TG-1. She does not even register there. No, Dana wants to mess up this blog.
If you ever saw Jan Drew in the usenet, you will realize what you are dealing with…
Again, I ask Steven and David, to clear out the mess.
Jan Drew?
Holy crap! That does bring back memories of the old days on misc.health.alternative…
David, don’t tell me you met Renate Ratlos there.
Then you really are a veteran of the usenet.
http://www.existenzberechtigungsnachweis.de
(for survivors only)
I noticed not a single one of you touched on the fact that Canada TESTS the Mom prior to shooting the baby with Hepatitis B vaccine. Nobody mentioned the immature myelin sheath. Or the fact that American babies are only hours old when they get the first dose of the Hepatitis B vaccine. Or the fact that babies won’t be having sex or doing drugs until the vaccine has likely worn off.
No explanations as to why we do it this way but other countries at least use a little common sense about it.
HSN said “It has nothing to do with vaccines, it is completely off topic and does not contain real science.”
There goes that reading comprehension thing again.
CDC’s Pink Book measles chapter, shows how infants are now more at risk from measles outbreaks in post-mass vaccination societies:
“During the 1989–1991 measles resurgence, incidence rates for infants were more than twice as high as those in any other age group. The mothers of many infants who developed measles were young, and their measles immunity was most often due to vaccination rather than infection with wild virus. As a result, a smaller amount of antibody was transferred across the placenta to the fetus, compared with antibody transfer from mothers who had higher antibody titers resulting from wild-virus infection. The lower quantity of antibody resulted in immunity that waned more rapidly, making infants susceptible at a younger age than in the past.”
HSN you do know what the word “temporary” means and I’m sure you understand that without titers we don’t know how long anyone carries an antibody for any disease. Why do you need this to be an all or nothing event? Why not reconsider the current US schedule after taking each disease and its vaccine at a one-on-one look?
In the absence of circulating disease, some vaccines lose their “punch” leaving adults vulnerable to childhood illnesses which are generally more dangerous for grown-ups than for children.
Thanks to the use of vaccines, infants are getting significantly less passive immunity from their mothers, putting them at risk of serious complications and death, as well.
Ask yourself in regard to all those measles deaths that you so proudly repeat in these threads (copied today from the CDC who forty years ago blatantly said that the measles was rarely fatal), ask yourself:
Did that hospital unknowingly contribute to the complications that arose from that “VPD” by suppressing a fever? Did they turn around and list the VPD as the cause of death which then made its way over to the CDC, then was subsequently misrepresented?
Reference: CDC PDF – http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/picrender.fcgi?artid=1919891&blobtype=pdf
I thought this was important and I know all you have access to journals that are up to your standards. I don’t have the money to access journals that you would accept but I didn’t want to leave before including this from a blog:
The administration of over-the-counter medication for fever may lead to the worsening of some infectious diseases, according to a recent study from Japan. Physicians or parents may administer medication to relieve fever, but in doing so, may increase or prolong the illness-associated viral shedding. The lowered fever may also reduce the body’s ability to fight the infection. Some feel that other features of the immune system are activated by fever. (Acta Paediatrica Japonica 36:375-378, 1994). Acetaminophen (paracetamol) was administered in this study, but other studies have cautioned that phenacetin may produce nephrotoxicity, aspirin may cause Reye’s syndrome or intestinal bleeding, and paracetamol or Tylenol may cause hepatotoxicity. Some of these medications have led to accidental death. Copyright 1994 Phylis Austin
http://wellth.wordpress.com/2008/07/04/fever-and-childhood-illness/
HSN said “I still want to know why if breastfeeding imparts such great immunity why did 69 babies under the age of three months die from pertussis in the years 2004 through 2006?”
Why do you keep throwing that out there as if you have some sort of proof that those babies got breast-milk only? Show me the information that tells you all the babies were properly fed in those 3 months AND that they were all previously healthy. Not a single one was underweight or premature at all? Are you trying to say that all 69 lived in clean conditions, were completely healthy, breastfed only by healthy mothers and all were of average body weight? No, you cannot say that can you?
OK, so there we have it 69 in 300million. Scary, just scary!
Believe me, I have spent years looking for this information. If I can’t find it then that makes me want to ask those who I trust may have answers. I guess none of you do.
ama -
Why do you keep sounding like a broken record? You can’t handle the tough questions so you want to run me off? I’ll be glad to post on your T1 site – as soon as you send a link with English instead of German. I’m just a Mom and I do not belong to any non-vaccine group of any sort. My friends won’t talk to me about it, no one in my family is interested in reading about it. I’m just looking for answers, that’s all.
I would like to ask those who may have answers if they all think that ALL mumps deaths were caused by the mumps disease itself. How many deaths were from complications of the mumps – all of them – do we know? And how many of those complications were treated with NSAIDS?
26 years ago Dr. Weing? Your own journals have new studies about the possible dangers…and then we have those FDA approved drugs pulled from the shelves so I’m sure there’s a lot out there on the subject. Yes, my family learned not to give aspirin to a child back in the 70’s when my Mom had to pull off the side of the road to resuscitate my cousin who had meningitis. If she had died then it’s very likely that the doctors treating her had not yet learned about the dangers of Aspirin. They would surely decide that the cause of death was meningitis – not from the treatment given by the parent. Think about it – how often do we blame death on a self-limiting disease when it was actually caused by the treatment of said disease or the treatment of its complications?
Many highly intelligent doctors are now looking into non-allopathic methods. I guess you would all call them fools for not sticking to the “all or nothing, us against them” protocol, but I think they are wise to drop the many attitudes that are only wasting time. The “All Or Nothing” attitudes, the “Us Against Them” attitudes and the “One Size Fits All” attitudes. The very worst is the “I’m have letters behind my name which means I don’t need to learn about new research, if you try and open my eyes I’ll try to be cute attitude. Do you ALL have the notion that there is nothing left to learn??? Do any of you ever go outside the standard topics that your trusted entities tell you to study?
Why do you proudly have the attitudes that “if its not scientifically proven then it can’t be discussed” or even thought about?
My final point to make is about measles. In 1967, the CDC said: *
“For centuries the measles virus has maintained a remarkably stable ecological relationship with man. The clinical disease is a characteristic syndrome of notable constancy and only moderate severity. Complications are infrequent, and, with adequate medical care, fatality is rare.”
They said that! Today, they tell us that we better get that MMR or else our kids will die! Just like that – they’ll die without the vaccine, never mind they have to first get the virus and then get complications from it. Well I ask you – how many people are walking around TODAY with antibodies against measles? We don’t want to know the answer to that do we? Herd immunity is not working.
I won’t even get into the debate over eliminating disease forever, we all know it’s a waste of time and thought to even think its possible.
I have tried to come here and not mention SIDS or Autism. Since I have many personal stories on both, it’s hard not to mention them. Notice I have not. But before I go I want to point out that if my brother were alive today his diagnosis would be ASD. I wanted autismdad to know that my story happened back when medicine wasn’t dictated by politics and “autism” was not yet a common word. For 22 years I lived with him as a young child and my every memory of his every action was classic AUTISM. His case was unlike today’s cases because back then doctors did not deny. The AAP wasn’t run by politics either – not like it is today.
There are harmful toxins in vaccine. We don’t yet know how harmful and our money for studies is being misused. Bypassing the immune system by injecting even trace amounts is not the same as allowing the body’s natural course of action. The truth about what is in vaccines is here, it can not be disputed. “Trace amounts” is what is in dispute but here are the facts about vaccine ingredients.
http://vaers.hhs.gov/pdf/PackageInserts.pdf
I’ve wanted to read some data regarding what happens when those minute, untraceable amounts are compounded over time. I can’t find anything but when I think about it, I do cConsider how much time it takes for the body to dispel these toxins.
David’s article about toxins was informative but this is what crossed my mind the entire read: Where are those many studies showing the different immune system responses of not by-passing the system (encountering a disease the natural way) and by-passing the immune system (with an injection into the extra vascular space). How do you see fit to even compare the two as if they are the same? I realize that I used IV’s to discuss this earlier but I was trying to avoid having you reply with the same old same old.
Why are we studying the likes of Viagra and Breast Implants when there is so much we don’t know about these “trace amounts” of toxins, so much we don’t know about ASD and so much we don’t know about SIDS…?
From the other articles on this site that I’ve read through, I wanted to mention that none of my questions were really answered. I did get a better understanding of the science and for that I’ll say “Thanks”.
Dana is afraid of the TG-1. She is afraid that she will get answers there…
http://www.transgallaxys.com/~kanzlerzwo/
(we hunt quacks…)
Dana,
There is no way we could hope to answer all your questions when you keep throwing out more and more of them and fail to respond to what we do answer. You keep moving the goalposts. For instance, you never commented when I pointed out that Bactine doesn’t kill tetanus germs.
I’d like to ask you two questions: (1) can you conceive of any kind of evidence we could possibly show you that would convince you that vaccines in general or one vaccine in particular does more good than harm? and (2) if smallpox were still endemic in the US, would you see the importance of vaccinating as many people as possible so the disease could be eradicated and no one would ever get smallpox again and we would never have to vaccinate anyone for smallpox ever again? Or would you refuse to vaccinate your child on the principle that the risk of the vaccine was greater than the risk of the disease?
I agree with you Dr. Hall, Bactine does not kill Tetanus germs. I often type faster than I think as I’m sure you may have noticed. Tetanus is found in dirt and on dirty items, dirty wounds should be thoroughly cleaned. If they are cleaned and flushed well, then the pertussis won’t be there. I understand that it needs dead tissue to grow so it is important to clean the wound before any of the skin or flesh begins to die.
If I understand that correctly, then the only reason we vaccinate for Tetanus is because many parents don’t properly care for a child’s wound – or their own.
Out of all the vaccines, I would not say that there is not at least one that I couldn’t be convinced to take or give my kids. But if we still had no causation for SIDS or Autism then it wouldn’t be easy to convince me. I honestly don’t know of any other way to get the idea out of my head. I watched my brother grow up. I constantly daydreamed of having a normal brother. I also longed for the normal life – of not having other kids be cruel to him, and me being the very petite big sister trying to protect him. (Thank God he didn’t attend public school during this no child left behind era. The bullying has got to be horrific for those kids.)
I would not give either child a vaccine for Pertussis. I admit I kept both breastfed babies out of public when they were infants during cough and cold season because it made me very uncomfortable to hear coughing of any kind. Because of my brother and considering we all share some DNA – I don’t trust the Pertussis vaccine for any of my family members. I didn’t mention that my niece went into a coma after the new a-cellular version was given. She is from my husband’s side of the family but again, some DNA among us could be similar and I fear that a similar reaction could happen. I absolutely do fear that one vaccine more than I have ever feared the whooping cough.
I would never consider the chicken pox vaccine because I’ve not been convinced that the disease is that bad.
For the others like Diphtheria, Measles, Mumps and Rubella, I am of the opinion that we should stop one at a time and see what happens. We can’t just keep guessing that the disease will make a combat at a deadly rate unless we actually stop it and see. Instead of taking any away though – we just add more. I see that as a danger because those “trace amounts” are getting more and more compounded.
I hear what you are saying about current disease in other countries. I was not aware of the many stories you all have mentioned. I hope its not more of the same though where they use 30 cases and call it an “epidemic”. I will look at some of it and research what I can even though I was given no good (science-approved) reading on the subject.
Honestly, I know very little about small pox or its vaccine, other that reading stories of military personnel with reactions. The measles though, I’m not trusting the treatment of the measles and have yet to be convinced that the disease is that scary.
Yes, I could be convinced regarding a couple of them. I just ask myself though – what if you’re wrong? In a different discussion (I think it was about ingredients) you replied to someone who asked if the government would admit to all this if they found out they were wrong. I don’t think they would be honest and admit it. I think there would be rioting in the streets and a whole lot more if that were to ever happen. I think our politicians know this too.
And with all these autistic children growing up and needing care, I just don’t see where the money would come from because there would be law suits galore.
Thank you for spending your time on this. I do appreciate it and I will share this with others (from both sides). I have copied it into a file and I’ll continue looking at your viewpoints with it as time allows. I want to ask you the same. Could you ever be convinced that our US vaccine schedule needs a complete overhaul?
I wanted to include this too. It gives a possible reason as to why breastfed babies get the disease Mom had but thought she should have antibodies for:
Labor in childbirth and the child’s immune system —
The process of labor may strengthen an infant’s immune system according to a study from London, United Kingdom. Immune system function of infants born by cesarean section was compared with infants born vaginally. Infants born vaginally had higher values for several immune system indicators. The researchers conclude that labor may benefit the child’s immune system. (American Journal of Obstetrics and Gynecology 171:1271-2, 1994) Copyright 1994 Phylis Austin
Dana said,
“reason we vaccinate for Tetanus is because many parents don’t properly care for a child’s wound”
No. The reason we vaccinate for tetanus is that even with the most careful cleansing, tetanus can still occur.
“we should stop one at a time and see what happens”
I’ve been trying to tell you, that’s already happened repeatedly and the results are clear: the rate of disease rises, children get sick and die. It would be unethical to repeat such experiments.
“I would never consider the chicken pox vaccine because I’ve not been convinced that the disease is that bad.”
If one of these three previously healthy children who died from chickenpox in 1997 had been your child, you might have been convinced. Please read this webpage including the editorial note. http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00052600.htm
“Could you ever be convinced that our US vaccine schedule needs a complete overhaul?”
Sure. All it would take is credible scientific evidence. I can’t tell you how many times the vaccine schedule has changed already just during my professional lifetime. We will gladly follow the evidence wherever it leads. The evidence right now leads us to the current vaccination schedule. I have children too. I’ve read the scientific literature and I’ve read the anti-vaccine literature, which I found far less credible. I want the best for my daughters. I made sure that they got every vaccine on the schedule. Now that they are young women, they have even gotten Gardasil.
I’m sorry you are so worried about these vaccines. I wish we could get you to look at the evidence objectively. There simply is no credible evidence that vaccines cause autism or SIDS. There is strong evidence that all currently recommended vaccines do more good than harm: evidence had to be accumulated before the vaccines were put on the market, and the evidence is constantly being re-evaluated and reports of reactions monitored. The people doing the re-evaluating and monitoring have children and grandchildren of their own and they want the best for them.
You seem to be afraid that some genetic difference makes your family more susceptible. There’s no way to rule out that possibility, but it seems very unlikely. Most genotypes are spread throughout the population and would have an effect on the overall statistics.
You are understandably impressed by events in your own family. You might have been equally impressed in the other direction if your brother had caught measles and died of complications.
It takes a great deal of scientific objectivity to set aside one’s personal experience and prejudice and see the published evidence for what it really is. I can understand that that may be impossible for you, but I hope you can at least admit the possibility that you might be endangering your child because of subjective fears.
Your response is nothing more than the parroting of typical toxic myths about vaccines that antivaccinationists like to repeat.
By the way, scientifically speaking, it’s the worst of times for antivaccine activists.
[...] such as measles in areas of the U.S. to the point where I’m not along in fearing that the bad old days will soon return, just as Andrew Wakefield’s litigation- and money-driven “studies” suggesting [...]
Seeing how she dodges questions, ignores answers and repeats the same fallacies and pushes tangential points, there is no way she would be convinced of the relative safety of vaccines versus the actual diseases.
That is, until one of her children becomes very ill from measles or pertussis. If they survive unscathed, then she will broadcast all over that they are harmless diseases. If they do not survive unscathed, she will blame the lack of proper medical care they received (including that any vaccine they had received prior to her revelation on the “dangers of vaccines” would have weakened their systems).
Though her children may never encounter these diseases. Tetanus is actually relatively uncommon, and herd immunity does protect from the other bugs.
All we can hope to do is convince those who are undecided and are open minded enough to look at the real evidence.
@HCN
>That is, until one of her children becomes very ill from
>measles or pertussis. If they survive unscathed, then
>she will broadcast all over that they are harmless
>diseases. If they do not survive unscathed, she will
>blame the lack of proper medical care they received
>(including that any vaccine they had received prior to
>her revelation on the “dangers of vaccines” would
>have weakened their systems).
It is even worse. The anti-vaccs are schizophrenic.
On one hand they claim that they care sooooo very much for their children. (This is why they forbid vaccination – vaccination would do harm to their children.)
On the other hand they treat ill children very badly. In reality they keep alive the Nazi ideology of a tough, strong race. They do not use the word race (well, most of them), but this is where the key is.
Part of the anti-vacc belief is that a healthy body withstands ALL illnesses. This is religious idiocy. If you look closely at the kernel parts of the anti-vacc texts (in books, lectures, etc.), you will find exactly this point, sometimes more, sometimes less hidden behind tons of esoteric babble.
Some anti-vaccs even claim that vaccination is doubt in the love of god. It takes quite a while, but many of hardcore kernel in the anti-vacc movement, one day say something like that. You only have to look for it.
To get a strong body, one must only live “correctly”. this is not only healthy food, but also “the right way” to handle illnesses. That means that the children have TO ENDURE them without complaining.
There are doctoral books on how to handle children who have whooping cough. There even are instruments they children have to play — and these instruments imitate the sound of a child desperately fighting for breath.
Have a look at the anthroposoph literature about whooping cough. They pray utmost sadism.
Illnesses, so the anti-vaccs believe, are GOOD for the children, and so the children MUST have the illnesses. It would steel them, make them hard and tough.
Anthrophoposphs even claim that children (toddlers, only some weeks old) WANT to become ill, WANT to live through an illness.
And these anthroposophs are medical doctors! They are the key persons of the medical scene of the anthroposophs in Germany!
The consequence of this insanity is that the children do NOT get a good treatment, but are forced into enduring the situation.
These medical doctors even boast with the fact that they send less children for special treatment into hospitals!
And this is not some few percent. If I remember correctly, they send to the hospials less than 1/5 or 1/10 of what scientific doctors do.
HCN is right: In case a child is harmed, the guilt is pushed to “the schoolmedicine”.
BUT: Even if a child dies, this does not matter. Why so? Answer: Because the parents do know that SOME childrne will die. The parents are well-prepared for the illness of their children. And they do know that SOME die.
The schizophreny is that some medical doctors (one of them is Fromme, who is one of the two responsible for the measles outbreak in Coburg in 2002) uses this as an supportive argument. He publicly states, THAT the parents were prepared. Who prepared them for that if not he himself!?
If a child dies, then it does so for the good of the community. Yes, the children are sacrificed for the community.
Now, if a child dies because of complications by a vaccination, THEN this child is sacrificed for “some abstract stuff”.
Read this piece of proof (you can find it in
http://www.pharmamafia.de ):
Martin Hirte, a German medical doctor, in his book “Impfen pro und Contra”:
[*QUOTE*]
——————————————————————————-
Im unglücklichen Fall einer schweren
Impfnebenwirkung wird ihr Kind ja den
besagten abstrakten epidemiologischen
Zielen, wie zum Beispiel der “Ausrottung”
von Krankheiten, gewissermaßen geopfert.”
——————————————————————————-
[*/QUOTE*]
There he claims that the child is sacrificed for the “abstract” aim of eradicating the measles. That the vavcination is meant to shield the child, this he avoids to say.
Now, THAT statement by Martin Hirte is his official one, the one he makes to parents. But INTERNALLY he sees the situation TOTALLY different and on 9.6.2005 he writes:
[*QUOTE*]
——————————————————————————-
Die Frage ist für mich, habe ich
den Masernrisiken genug
entgegenzusetzen, um eine späte
Impfung etwa im 10. – 12.
Lebensjahr vertreten zu können:
Verzicht auf Fiebersenkung,
homöopathische Therapie, evtl.
Vitamin A -Gabe. Hierzu gibt’s
natürlich keine EbM-Zahlen, das
ist Sache der Intuition, der
Erfahrung und des Selbstvertrauens.
Und dann der Vorteil, den die
Boosterung der Gesamtbevölkerung
durch gelegentliche Klein- und
Kleinstepidemien hat – ohne
Wildmasern ist ja nach spätestens
25 Jahren bei über 80% kein
protektiver Titer mehr zu erwarten
( http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/150/11/1238 ).
In Impfgesprächen nehme ich
immer auf diese epidemiologische
Bewandtnis Bezug.
Wobei wir uns aber darüber im
Klaren sein müssen, dass einzelne
“Teilnehmer” an Epidemien
sozusagen der Allgemeinheit geopfert werden.
——————————————————————————-
The last sentence: “In this we must see clearly, that single ‘participants’ in epidemias are sacrificed tor the community.”
THERE he does know that in a measles epidemia (that is: infection by WILD measles) children do die — and that these children “are sacrificed for the community”.
Stress put on “sacrificed”, because he does know very well, that the risk of death by vaccination is MUCH less than by infection with wild measles.
Martin Hirte is one of the leading anti-vaccs in Germany.
.
[...] positive impact of mass vaccination has a very clear and positive record. Science-Based Medicine has put up the stats for major vaccines. All of them have efficacy rates of over 80%, and save [...]
[...] and fear-mongering (unlike me, he’s even been directly attacked by David Kirby) and both Mark Crislip and Harriet Hall have each done one post about it, but, at least this far, hands down I’ve [...]
[...] of Parents Healing Autism Against All Odds and appearing on The Oprah Winfrey Show yet again. When Amanda Peet joined the fray on the pro-vaccine side, it let the media to portray the vaccine issue as a [...]
I’d like to point out a few of the more glaring discrepancies in your “Amanda Peet” blog. First I encourage readers interested in more complete information about these diseases to consult the CDC’s Pink Book (cited below under measles entry).
1) Are you limiting your lists of possible side effects only to side effects that you have personally observed in your clinical experience? You should inform your readers that you are compiling an incomplete list of possible side effects and refer them to the package inserts for more complete information. Package inserts can be found here: http://www.vaccinesafety.edu/package_inserts.htm
2) Measles: you state 400,000 cases annually. I assume you refer only to reported and/or laboratory confirmed cases. You must be aware that the actual morbidity rates were much higher, the CDC’s Pink Book chapter on measles estimates 3-4 million cases annually in the pre-vaccine era. The vast majority of cases were not reported or confirmed as measles was such a common occurrence with rare complications. This clarification is important because the use of 400,000 cases rather than 3-4 million cases significantly inflates the perceived risk of mortality given approximately 400 annual deaths. https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/pink-chapters.htm
3) Polio: You cite a U.S. mortality rate of 1,400 with a reported case rate of 38,000. It would be helpful if you would cite your sources for your disease statistics. As with measles, polio cases were vastly underreported due to the inapparent nature of most infections. The CDC’s Pink Book states the following: “Up to 95% of all polio infections are inapparent or asymptomatic. Estimates of the ratio of inapparent to paralytic illness vary from 50:1 to 1,000:1 (usually 200:1)” Again, your choice of statistics substantially inflates the perceived mortality risk.
4) Varicella: You state that the varicella vaccine is 99% effective. This contradicts other sources that acknowledge a vaccine failure rate higher than 1%.
Merck’s website shows a breakthrough rate of 7.5% with one dose of Varivax vaccination, 2.2% with 2 doses. https://www.merckvaccines.com/varivaxProductPage_frmst.html
A 2007 paper published in the New England Journal of Medicine states that during a ten-year varicella study consisting of 350,000 vaccinated subjects 11,356 subjects (3.2%) were reported to have varicella during the surveillance period. This is attributed to both primary and secondary vaccine failure.
Chaves S et al Loss of Vaccine-Induced Immunity to Varicella over Time N Engl J Med 2007;356:1121-9.
One more comment: Your footnote 1 is inappropriate for a medical professional. In fact the pervasive sarcasm emanating from some of your contributors on this site detracts greatly from the content. You could all benefit from a sarcasm vaccination to stop the spread of infection.
Concern troll is concerned.
I shall alert the media.
I didn’t detect any sarcasm in footnote #1.
Perhaps you’ve developed immunity to it. One good troll deserves another.
Oh, is this what you’re concerned about? Wikipedia “A concern troll is a false flag pseudonym created by a user whose actual point of view is opposed to the one that the user’s sockpuppet claims to hold. The concern troll posts in web forums devoted to its declared point of view and attempts to sway the group’s actions or opinions while claiming to share their goals, but with professed “concerns”. The goal is to sow fear, uncertainty and doubt within the group.”
Ah, in my naivete I assumed “troll” referred to some sort of curmudgeon.
I am a fully vaccinated adult with professed “concerns” about factual inaccuracies. As a science based forum, you should have no problem with that. On second thought, I did not find footnote 1 to be particularly sarcastic, just rather disturbing coming from a medical professional.
My desire to offer facts when I encounter misinformation is not accompanied by a desire or intent to sow fear, uncertainty and doubt. You’ve attributed far too much nefarious ambition to my humble concerns.
Ha, ha, ha, pretty good one, I detected the sarcasm in your last comment quite well, perhaps even better than you intended. “with professed “concerns” about factual inaccuracies.”, ” My desire to offer facts when I encounter misinformation is not accompanied by a desire or intent to sow fear, uncertainty and doubt.”
Ha, ha, ha pretty good sarcasm to me.
Vaccination gives you immunity; it allows your immune system to detect what it is vaccinated against and deal with it appropriately. Vaccination does not make the antigen invisible or non-detectable.
That is what vaccination with knowledge does, it makes pseudoscience detectable so it can be detected and dealt with properly.
That is why the authors of this blog don’t censor comments by trolls and anti-vaxers. By exposing the lies, pseudoscience and concern trolls, readers become able to spot pseudoscience themselves. They become “immunized” to BS and able to see it for what it is.
I don’t quite understand all the psychobabble, but you seem to be accusing me of something. I can assure you I have very real concerns about inaccurate facts, not pseudo-concerns. The quotation marks above are taken from the Wikipedia quote, not intended to indicate false concerns.
I do detect hyper-vigilance about alerting your readers that they should be “skeptical” about some of the comments made here, all very well and good. In fact a self-proclaimed site of skeptics should welcome other genuine skeptics, even if they don’t agree on everything and I don’t see that my comments have been at all controversial.
I’m all for exposing lies, if you know of any misstatements of fact in my comments please point them out. I am an eternal student, not an expert. I was hoping to engage in dialogue about the facts or to learn something valuable, not get sidetracked by too many personal opinions.
And what do you mean by “exposing….the concern trolls” It seemed to me that Mr. Concern Troll was on your side?
Not to belabor the point, but seriously, in footnote 1, accusing certain portions of the public of crimes (child abuse) because they don’t agree with your beliefs is ridiculous. I’ve had my say on that subject.
ps “immunized to BS” What a great idea. That would be wonderful vaccine for all of us, children and adults. Seriously.
Just to clarify my comments above, psychobabble is not the right word. I was referring to the fact that you appeared to indicate you were omniscient in some way by reading my true intentions of sarcasm when you stated “I detected the sarcasm in your last comment quite well, perhaps even better than you intended” No sarcasm was intended, except perhaps in my comment about a sarcasm vaccine. I am generally not prone to sarcasm.
I like sarcasm but footnote 1 is descriptive not sarcastic.
I spend my life counting infections and the numbers you get depend on who is doing the counting and the definiton of a disease.
Not as easy as one might think.
that is why I said I tried to find REPRESENTATIVE numbers, and tried to report numbers that were in the ballpark.
“Your footnote 1 is inappropriate for a medical professional.”
I suggest you stay away from my podcasts, but with the current reimbusment and number of uninsured patients I see for free, I think I am an amateur. My feedback at work suggests I am fine as a professional.
Yes, many of us are performing pro bono work in this economy.
I wasn’t questioning your professional performance or abilities. I know nothing about those subjects.
Learn more here:
http://www.quackcast.com/spodcasts/files/48f9db861d8a83f764792aa4b77990f8-29.html
Oh, about the first footnote, I have called them leeches, and for some they are victims of notorious liars who are lining their pockets with money from desperate parents. These liars and quacks include Wakefield, Bradstreet and the Geiers (who have this “cure” that involves chemical castration).
Ho hum. Again, accusing people (parents, as specifically noted in footnote 1) of a crime because they don’t adhere to your beliefs or practices is irrational and wrong. But it was a very effective technique for the Spanish inquisitors. Name calling and ridiculous accusations was not something I expected to find on this site. Someone should inform the state legislators of the 20 states that offer philosophical exemptions from vaccination that they are aiding and abetting in multiple crimes.
The only factual reply I’ve had to my comments is that the author was trying to report numbers “that were in the ballpark”. In my opinion, ballpark numbers don’t cut it for science based medicine. And since when is 400,000 annual U.S. cases of measles in the ballpark of 3-4 million?
What other name for a parasite or a freeloader is acceptable to you? If you check the worldwide measles cases and mortality, it comes to about 1%, just as it was in the US. So you can just use the data from footnote 15 to extrapolate. I suspect that you are willing to use the children of America as guinea pigs to test your hypothesis that the death rate from a measles epidemic would be lower.
I see you’re skirting the issue of false criminal accusations. But I’m very pleased to engage in a more substantive discussion.
What exactly is your rationale for consulting unicef data and extrapolating from international statistics to US statistics when the CDC supplies extensive US morbidity and mortality data? (the Pink Book and Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Reports are chock full of it, not the mention the U.S. Vital Statistic database)? That seems unnecessarily time consuming and would result in inaccurate information, as US mortality rates were well below 1%. Extrapolating disease mortality rates from developing nations without sanitary infrastructures and consistent food supplies to the U.S. is an apples to oranges comparison. You have a curious way of gathering information. I find it unusual that an infectious disease specialist is unaware of the high U.S. morbidity rates of measles in the pre-vaccine era. It’s also common knowledge to most of our parents and grandparents.
I’m glad you brought up measles and “herd immunity”. Herd or community immunity theory is quite a complex subject and your comments are apparently based upon an oversimplified version of that theory (which seems to circulate widely in the media). As you may know, it is a misconception that there is one all-encompassing herd labeled “society as a whole”. For epidemiological purposes there are different societal “herds” based upon age, socioeconomic status, ethnicity, etc. For some diseases, such as measles and varicella, mass vaccination benefits some “herds” while creating new “herds” of higher risk susceptibles due to the temporary nature of vaccine-induced immunity (resulting in waning immunity or secondary vaccine failure). With measles in particular, even if 100% of the school age “herd” are vaccinated, due to the combination of primary and secondary vaccine failure there will continue to be increasing numbers of new higher risk susceptibles in the infant and adult “herds”.
What’s the solution? Life-long boosters for adults? There certainly will be a push for that, but it is unlikely that the U.S. adult “herd” will ever comply with mass vaccination at the unprecedented coverage rates we currently see in the school age “herd”. One reason is the lack of legal enforcement for adult vaccination analogous to the individual state-mandated school entry requirements for children. Where does that leave us? Two studies published in peer reviewed journals model a “post-honeymoon period” U.S. re-emergence of measles over time such that by 2050 the same percentage of the population as a whole (10%) will be susceptible to measles as was susceptible in the pre-vaccine era, but the susceptibles will have been redistributed from the school age “herd” to the adult and infant “herds”, with much higher risk of complications and mortality. The Levy study cited below states that in theory, a measles epidemic in 2050 could result in over 25,000 deaths, which might be considered a conservative estimate since that study did not include the effects of waning immunity and the Mossong Muller study actually shows much higher percentages of susceptibles at an earlier date. Something to think about that when measles begins to reemerge, instead of blaming it on Jenny McCarthy or “freeloaders”.
Levy, D. The future of measles In highly Immunized populations: a modeling
approach. Am J Epidemiol 1984;120:39-48
Mossong J, Muller CP, Modelling measles re-emergence as a result of waning
of immunity in vaccinated populations, Vaccine 21 (2003): 4597-4603
Oh, by the way, these are not the only published papers on this subject.
Since you have read these articles maybe you can answer some questions. Do those computer models of waning immunity predict full blown measles or an attenuated illness? Are you saying the freeloaders will finally be paying in about 40 years? Have those models factored in the freeloaders?
“What other name for a parasite or a freeloader is acceptable to you?” None. I don’t engage in name-calling or labeling.
I came to this site seeking additional information and all I get are personal opinions and requests for more information.
I’d be happy to respond to your questions when you’ve responded to mine, what is the rationale for consulting unicef data and extrapolating to U.S. data rather than consulting U.S. data? And how would that extrapolation be accurate?
Since widespread measles vaccination in the US was adopted in the 60s, and we were discussing the mortality in the era pre-vaccination which the pink book also indicates as around 1% in the US, a comparison of medical care in the pre 60s US and current worldwide care is roughly similar. The circa 1990s outbreak in the US showed a lower death rate of around 0.2% which we can attribute to advances in medical care in the ensuing decades. But at what cost in terms of resources and resultant disability?
So you wouldn’t recognize a tapeworm because you don’t place labels on parasites?
1) Are you refering to page 134 of the Measles Chapter of the Pink Book under the section “Secular Trends in the United States”? Where it states “Before 1963, approximately 500,000 cases and 500 deaths were reported annually…..” Do the math, that is a mortality rate of 0.1% (500), not 1% (5,000). Of course it goes on to state that the “actual number of cases was estimated at 3-4 million annually” which puts the U.S. mortality rate at 0.02%, not 0.1%, if using the more conservative estimate of 3 million. Please support your claims with accurate facts. And again, if you spot any errors in my comments please point them out.
2) “a comparison of medical care in the pre 60s US and current worldwide care is ROUGHLY SIMILAR” Please explain exactly how 1960’s U.S. health care, food supply and sanitation infrastructure and clean water on demand are “roughly similar” to those features in the developing world today. Developing countries are what the Pink Book is referring to on page 129 of the Measles chapter with the WHO estimate of “30 million cases and 454,000 deaths from measles in 2004″.
“Roughly similar” must be another one of those ballpark concepts?
As interesting as this discussion is, I must sign off for a while as I do have other obligations this weekend. I’ll be back.
PS or even how the above mentioned sanitation, health and nutrition features of the US in the 1940’s are “roughly similar” to today’s developing world? The people I know who were born in the 40’s were all born in hospitals, had toilets and running water at home, had weekly garbage pick-ups, local grocery stores with the money to buy food, etc. How far back do we have to go to be “roughly similar”?
Ok, I screwed up the math. Strange that the mortality in the circa 1990 outbreak was double that. Which makes me think that the pre 60s era statistics are ballpark figures. What does having toilets have to do with measles? I thought I implied that medical care pre 60s was equivalent to the current medical care outside the US. Now, I am not so sure.
Here’s a great resource for pre-vaccine era U.S. infectious disease mortality statistics: Historical Statistics of the U.S., Colonial Times to 1970” published by the U.S. Census Bureau. I believe the post 1970 info is available online. I bought this book used from Amazon.
Part I, pages 58 & 59 give infectious disease mortality rates per 100,000 for 1900 to 1970.
You have to go back to 1923 to get a double digit U.S. measles mortality rate: The 1923 rate was 10.7 per 100,000 (or 0.01%) All years later than 1923 were single digits per 100,000.
U.S. Measles Mortality rates per 100,000:
1925: 2.3 (0.002%)
1930: 3.2 (0.003%)
1935: 3.1 (0.003%)
1940: 0.5 (0.0005%)
1945: 0.2 (0.0002%)
1950: 0.3 (0.0003%)
1955: 0.2 (0.0002%)
1960: 0.2 (0.0002%)
You can quibble with the Census Bureau and the CDC about accuracy. No more spoon feeding from me on these statistics.
Still waiting to hear how sub-sahara Africa (where there is a big measles vaccination initiative and where much of the worldwide measles mortality figures stem from) and 1940’s U.S. health care, sanitation, nutrition, etc. etc., are “roughly similar”. You can’t aggregate all nations “outside the U.S.” together for these purposes for what (I think) are obvious reasons. gotta run now.
PS In case you didn’t do the math, that’s a >90% decrease in the measles mortality rate from 1923 to 1960, before vaccine development.
If that data is accurate, then our advances in medical care around 1990 have given as a thousandfold in measles mortality, or the virus has become so much more virulent. As, I think it was Disraeli, said something about lies, damned lies, and statistics.
As I said, I don’t see any association with sanitation and measles. I was solely comparing medical care once someone has the disease. Again, I said roughly similar. How specific do you want it? Were no kids living in ghettos and Appalachia? It would seem that if they got the care our children had in the 20s and 30s they would be better off.
Stop avoiding the issue and answer the questions from the 12:06 post.
Line 2 should be “given us a thousandfold increase in measles mortality,”
Gotta get some sleep.
Lack of sleep does lead to muddled thinking. You’ve taken quite a demanding tone in your sleep deprived state. I keep providing facts, you keep providing opinionated commentary. If you were genuinely interested in a substantive conversation (rather than baiting) you would read the two articles yourself and then we could have a discussion. If you had read them I’m sure you’d be regaling me with non-facts.
Perhaps you don’t want to shell out the money for the two online articles? Does that mean you want to get something for free? I think you have a label for that….
As for damned lies and statistics, now you appear to be saying you have no faith in numbers and statistics? So much for science based medicine.
So you refuse to answer my questions. Fine. Maybe you haven’t read them yourself, whatever. I suppose there is no reason for me to read them because you are sure I would only be regaling you with non-facts if I did.
I see you are ready to label.
Even in my sleep deprived state, I have faith in numbers and statistics. I just have to double check as I know that one can lie with statistics. I wouldn’t be so ready to assume the data collection you have so much faith in is that reliable.
Ok. I think I figured out where you are coming from. You think:
1. That measles mortality had been decreasing in the pre-vaccine era to where it was about a ten thousandth of the current mortality in the rest of the world.
2. Natural disease gives lifetime immunity.
3. Immunity from vaccination wanes making adults susceptible to the disease as well as infants because of less transmission of antibodies from the mother.
4. The disease in those with partial immunity is deadlier than in people without immunity.
5. Therefore, we should not vaccinate and the unvaccinated are the maligned forward thinking heroes because it will be the partially immune that will be spreading the disease.
I believe the deaths per 100,000 per year are based on the total population, not based on the number of people who got measles.
If we assume an average life span of 60 years and 80 years, and that a person gets measles only once and either survives or dies, then we need to multiply the per year deaths by 60 or 80 to get the deaths per measles case (approximately).
0.003% * 60 = 0.225% lifetime risk of death from measles, or 1 in 556.
0.0002% * 80 = 0.015% lifetime risk of death from measles or 1 in 6250.
Do you like those odds of death?
I suspect that it was antibiotics that prevented death due to secondary infection by bacteria following a primary infection by measles. The timing looks about right, sulfa drugs started being used in the late 1930’s, penicillin after 1945. There also are confounding factors based on immigration. If immigrants enter the country after they got measles (and either died or survived), their risk of life-time death would not show up. There may also have been multiple viral diseases misdiagnosed as measles earlier that would have artificially increased the recorded numbers.
Weing: The only reason for you to read the articles yourself is if you wish to learn something. If not, then you should not. My intent here was to clarify discrepancies and to hopefully learn something. I have not been very successful in the latter.
As for verifying U.S. historical mortality data, it’s easy to do by going to the library. Normally, when one encounters a legitimate appearing reference citation one verifies it, rather than blindly challenging it.
And, hey, you actually did come up with a rather good question earlier. If the U.S. measles mortality rate has increased a thousand-fold, why? Could it be a consequence of 40 years of mass vaccination? Due to increased pathogen virulence, or increasing numbers of infant susceptibles due to the loss of natural immunity as discussed earlier? Good question. Don’t know the answer.
Weing: I agree with your 1-3 items. Not necessarily with 4 and you’re way ahead of me on 5. Haven’t thought about any “heroes” in relation to this subject. Haven’t come to any pat conclusions either, that’s why I’m here, to learn.
Daedalus: Yes, I believe it is per 100,000 of the population, which is why I stated it multiple times. I don’t really “like” any odds of death. Will cogitate upon what you’ve said.
Actually I take back what I said about weing’s item 1: “the rest of the world” I disagree with, Europe’s rates of morbidity and mortality declined almost in lock step with the US. Also haven’t checked your math. So I may not agree entirely with you.
Now those numbers make sense. Thanks daedalus2u for pointing that out. I was referring to case mortality and missed the switch to mortality per population. When data don’t make sense, I get suspicious of everything. Most often it’s due to my misperception, as in this case.
So, what you are saying is that you are not anti-vaccine? Regarding item 4. It is totally wrong. Since there is no animal host for measles, it has the potential of being totally eliminated from humanity. Who or what can prevent that elimination? It’s not the parents who vaccinate their children.
In reply to your earlier question, the Mossong & Muller paper cited above assumes that 90% of 1-year olds have been successfully vaccinated since 1980.
According to the CDC, for the 2006-2007 school year: “approximately 75% of states have reached the 2010 objective of at least 95% coverage for all of the vaccines recommended by the Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices (ACIP) for children in kindergarten”
Mossong & Muller supply a graph of their model results which shows 10% of the population “susceptible to vaccine-modified infection” in 2005 and 31% susceptible by 2030. (Compare that to Levy’s estimate of 10% by 2050.) This is misleading as they have eliminated typical measles infection from their model, while at the same time stating that individuals with waning immunity are susceptible to both typical and subclinical measles: “Antibody titres in vaccinated individuals are subject to substantial waning, which may not only result in typical measles, but also in susceptibility to a milder or subclinical form of infection.” Their elimination of typical measles infection from the model would result in a more conservative mortality estimate.
As to your “anti-vaccine” question, you certainly are intent upon applying labels. To what ends? I would guess it’s because you (like most people) prefer to either summarily agree with or dismiss my comments, rather than reading them with an open mind and taking them at face value. I resist being pigeonholed and in the spirit of scientific inquiry I try to maintain an open mind. I am skeptical of exaggerated claims on both side of the vaccine debate.
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5632a3.htm
I’ll have to check the paper to see if the model factored in non-responders to the vaccine as well as the avoiders of the vaccine, since you don’t like the term freeloaders.
And the exaggerated claims on both sides of the vaccine debate are…?
WTF? worrying about a hypothetical reemergence of measles in 2050, 40 years from now because the measles vaccine introduced 30 years ago is not “good enough” when used as a single dose, when measles is already reemerging now? It is very clear what the present reemergence is due to, it is due to anti-vax parents not getting their children vaccinated. So your “solution” is to stop using measles vaccine so instead of having 25,000 deaths every 70 years or so (which we can stop by changing the vaccine schedule), we have 600 deaths every year (300 e6 *0.0002%)? 70*600 = 42,000? Most of the deaths from endemic measles are in children who lose the rest of their life. In the hypothetical epidemic, some of the (smaller number of) deaths will be in older individuals who have already lived part of their life.
The only reason that measles is not endemic at this moment is because a large fraction of parents are having their children vaccinated for measles. When parents rationalize as “the reason” they don’t vaccinate their children, because measles is rare, they are being parasites. They are taking advantage of the reduction in measles incidence due to other people having their children vaccinated.
One way to respond to reduced fraction of the population being immune is to vaccinate infants earlier. That is what responsible parents will be forced to do to respond to the irresponsible behavior of anti-vax parents.
“WTF” indeed. “So your “solution” is to stop using measles vaccine” Exactly where did I suggest such a solution? I did not. Please read more carefully and stop making assumptions.
As I stated above, the 10% susceptible by 2050 estimate was from the Levy paper. The Mossong & Muller paper shows a more rapid reemergence with 10% of the population already susceptible as of 2005, over 30% susceptible as of 2030. Mossong & Muller attribute the new groups of susceptible and the reemergence of measles to primary and secondary vaccine failure, no mention of vaccine exemptors that I can see, but please do read it and verify that. BTW, they assume 90% of 1 year olds seroconverted.
With current vaccination coverage rates at 95% (net of 1-3% vax exemptors) we apparently have 5% excess coverage over the study’s 90% coverage assumption.
“Most of the deaths from endemic measles are in children who lose the rest of their life. In the hypothetical epidemic, some of the (smaller number of) deaths will be in older individuals who have already lived part of their life.” Some of those “older” individuals will be middle aged parents with children to care for. And you’re making some value judgments here, on the value of certain lives versus others.
This exchange has been less than educational for me.
i have never known what to make of models such as these (I can only get the abstracts, not the full text). People continually publish them on a variety of topics, but I guess I lack the the knowledge to appreciate them.
As a practicing physician, it is like using global warming models to predict tomorrows weather. They are interesting, but I wonder about their applicability to day to day operations.
All impacts in health are multifactorial, measles has declined and deaths have declined for many reasons, vaccines being one of them. someone always points out that measles rates were falling before vaccines were started, and to my mind, it was yeah, so what? Infection rates were falling in my hospitals before we instituted infection bundles, and when we did they fell even more. It seems such a nonstarter for an argument. Every death is by a thousand cuts and every success is by a thousand band aids.
The topic was vaccines, not nutrition, or sanitation or hand washing etc etc
Vaccination may have unintended consequences, hopefully good, maybe bad, not autism.
As i think about the issue, I would expect that the use of vaccination may increase mortality from the disease.
Those who are unvaccinated are often those with immunologic contraindications, and perhaps there are sub populations with toll polymorphisms who respond less to the vaccine and may be more susceptible to dying from the disease. Who knows, the variations in immunologic susceptibility is in its infancy.
It is interesting to think about.
Vaccine. 2008 Mar 25;26(14):1731-6.
Associations between SNPs in toll-like receptors and related intracellular signaling molecules and immune responses to measles vaccine: preliminary results.
Thanks for your civil and honest comments, and the citation. Looks like an interesting article, but apparently neither you nor I subscribe to Vaccine. (I can only get the abstract.) I’ll consider purchase of the article as my budget allows.
Your response does raise a related subject in which I’m interested. When you say “not autism”, it is not an entirely accurate statement from the scientific perspective, correct? I have no axe to grind with regard to autism in particular, but it’s a good example for the topic of scientific accuracy and communicating science to the public.
For example, a Newsweek article quotes Paul Offit’s book Autisms False Prophets “The notion that vaccines cause autism, he writes, has “been clearly disproved.” (Newsweek, November 3, 2008 “Stomping Through a Medical Minefield”)
Given a biologically plausible theory (that vaccines may cause autism) and given the limitations of the scientific method in proving a negative, and assuming that all studies to date are of similarly high quality, a scientifically accurate statement would be something like “no studies to date have indicated a causal relationship between vaccines and autism”.
Is this indicative of a trend among scientists and physicians, to dispense with “weasel” words? Is dismissing with the formality of standard precautionary language justified? Where should scientists and physicians draw the line on this topic and is a double standard of communication warranted? Do the ends (encouraging public compliance with universal vaccination) justify the means (stretching or twisting the truth)? If so, is this double standard likely to become universally accepted among scientists and physicians with a wink and a nod, in the name of a higher good? I welcome your comments on this subject.
Communicating science to the public is a difficult task. It seems a given that when widely acknowledged vaccine experts like Paul Offit are quoted this way in the general media the educated members of the general public who discern the implications of a double standard of communication will begin to question or disregard the message and the messenger.
JTF, it is not a “biologically plausible theory” that vaccines cause autism. There is nothing plausible about it. One of the most characteristic symptoms of people with ASDs, is a larger number of minicolumns and a larger brain. The number of minicolumns is fixed at 6 weeks post conception. That is still in the first trimester in utero. A vaccine 2 or 3 years later can’t change the number of minicolumns.
You are correct, that science can’t prove a negative. The statement you cite “no studies to date have indicated a causal relationship between vaccines and autism” is correct. What that “means” is that vaccines cannot be a statistically significant cause of autism. What that means is that the main cause(s) of autism are something other than vaccines. What that means is that if you avoid vaccines you don’t change your chances of getting autism. If you are vaccinated you don’t change your chances of getting autism.
What is the double standard? If there is no statistically significant increase or decrease in autism in association with receiving or not receiving vaccines, what should the “responsible” scientist say? That there is no increase or decrease in autism with vaccination. The hypothesis that vaccines are a significant cause of autism has been disproven. It is not. It may be a statistically insignificant cause of autism, but science can’t study things that are statistically insignificant. Neither can any other system of information gathering.
It would be irresponsible to say (without any evidence) that there might be some adverse effect (that the data doesn’t show), so as to trick people into avoiding being vaccinated and so subject themselves to greater risk from the diseases that are avoided by vaccination.
What are the extreme positions on the pro and anti-vaccine side that you are supposedly immune to? Are you going to warn people against eating because studies show that all people who get cancer have all indulged in that behavior?
I have been a scientist of some sort when I was a fellow, but now I am just a doctor.
There is always the question at what point the preponderance of data makes qualifications, while more honest, unnecessary.
Evolution is a fact.
That vaccines do not cause autism, in my read of the literature, about as good as medical science can get.
Statins as an immunmomodulator in sepsis, lots of strongly suggestive but gold standard double blind studies not done
macrolides as an immunomodulator in sepsis, little info, strongly suggestive
chronic lyme, mostly crap but……… come to the SBM conference for more
As I understand biology and pathophysiology and immunology, the concept that vaccines cause autism has zero plausibility.
there reaches a point where I have to judge the data good enough; there is no reason for weasel words.
everyone will draw that line in a different place.
I see my job with patients to give my best opinion to patients based, if possible on best evidence. I often receive thanks from patients and families as being the only doctor who ever told them clearly what is going on and it is because I do not like weasel words.
It is interesting that you use the word civil.
I do not much participate in the comments. in part it is due to the fact that by the time I formulate a response to an entry, days go by.
I love a good essay filled with invective, sarcasm and clever writing. They are directed at everyone and no one.
The comments are person to person, and too often, because of anonymity and lack of nuance, people are not clever, just assholes. I deal with assholes all day at work, I don’t want to deal with them on the blog, unless they can at least be witty and clever. Insult me, just be funny.
In real life I put high importance on getting along with people and civility. That is not part of the web, and it does not interest me much.
The IOM’s 2004 report “Vaccines and Autism” states that it is a biologically plausible hypothesis. Is it your opinion that this report is inaccurate or has become obsolete?
A responsible scientist should communicate in a factual and precise manner, and explicitly divulge when he is venturing a personal opinion. It’s one thing to say “in my personal opinion, x theory has been disproved because the association has been shown to be statistically insignificant”. This allows the listener or reader to make an independent evaluation of the facts. However, stating in absolute terms that a theory “has been clearly disproved” is inaccurate and misleading. The standard, cautious language used to discuss scientific theories serves a purpose in maintaining objectivity. Once we veer into the realm of personal opinion precision is lost and I cannot be certain of what you mean by “statistically significant”.
On this subject in particular, given the significant burden autism places on families and society and the preventative nature of vaccination as a medical intervention, the burden of proof is high and a quantum leap from a “not statistically significant” association between vaccines and autism to a “non-existent” association is highly misleading.
Imprecision in language leads to inaccuracies. For example, Weing equates skepticism with immunity. Skepticism implies questioning information, not resisting it.
I never thought of equating skepticism with immunity. Do you mean immunity from gullibility? I think you are dodging the question, I still want to know what those extreme positions on either side of the vaccine debate are.
BTW, the IOM report rejected that hypothesis. What is your point in trying to resurrect an invalidated hypothesis? Do you think you are better qualified than the IOM to evaluate the matter?
JTF, yes, the 2004 IOM report is obsolete. The data in it is not obsolete, the conclusions based on that data have now been superceded by conclusions based on that data plus the data collected in the intervening 5 years. The idea that vaccines are a significant cause of autism is not biologically plausible. Enough has been learned that the idea is no longer biologically plausible. That is how science works; hypotheses that were once plausible get tested and discarded if the data says they are not important.
Your idea about how scientists should comport themselves is fine, but only when they are speaking “as scientists”. That means, only when they are writing in peer reviewed journals (which are communications from one scientist to another scientist).
To compel scientists to constrain their expressed opinions on only the most settled of scientific matters while allowing non-scientists to make idiotic, inflammatory, wrong, misleading, self-serving, unsupported, and dangerous statements is to muzzle the most knowledgeable segment of society. How can that be a good idea?
Science non-scientists don’t have the expertise to have other than non-expert opinions. Why don’t you advocate that all non-scientists preface their opinions with “I don’t know or understand what I am talking about, but my uninformed opinion is…”
Since the science now says vaccines are not a significant cause of autism, why don’t the anti-vaxers acknowledge that? Why aren’t you posting at AoA and HufPo telling them that vaccines are not a significant cause of autism and telling them to change their rhetoric? Many of them are still saying that vaccines do cause autism, when there is not a shred of evidence that they do. Actually there never has been a shred of evidence, only unsupported opinions by uninformed people. Many people in the anti-vax community are still supporting Andrew Wakefield, even after it is demonstrated that he lied in a scientific publication. It wasn’t data at all, it was a made-up lie. If all of those people had always worded their statements as “I don’t know or understand what I am talking about, but my uninformed opinion is that vaccines cause autism” the anti-vax hysteria might never have happened. Many millions wouldn’t have been wasted on vaccine research, many millions wouldn’t have been wasted on litigation, vaccination rates wouldn’t have dropped, there wouldn’t have been the outbreaks of measles and those who were injured and died from measles might not have.
It has been demonstrated that vaccines are not a significant factor in autism. Why do you want resources spent chasing after things that are insignificant in autism? There is no shortage of things that are or might be significant in autism. Any answers in treatment and prevention will be found among the things that are significant. There is not such a surplus of research funding that it can be wasted looking at things known to be insignificant.
weing said “BTW, the IOM report rejected that hypothesis. What is your point in trying to resurrect an invalidated hypothesis? Do you think you are better qualified than the IOM to evaluate the matter?”
Why indeed? I have only been glancing at this thread, and I would like to know why this guy wants to keep up with the investigation into vaccines. Especially with the MMR which has been used for almost forty years, and (forgive me if I get this wrong, I have only been glancing) would rather take the very real one in a thousand chance of serious neurological harm (deafness, mental retardation, blindness and even death) from measles (plus more than 1000 when you add in mumps and rubella) to the very teeny tiny chance of something going wrong with the vaccine (oh, and there is no evidence that the MMR has anything to do with autism).
As a parent with a adult son who is having trouble transitioning from school to work due, and dealing with the very underfunded agencies that are supposed to helping him —- all I have to say: ENOUGH ALREADY!
Enough time and money has been wasted on this vaccine=autism boondoggle perpetuated by Wakefield and friends!
In other words:
The science has been done, the link between vaccines and autism does not exist. It is a dead link… “It’s not pinin’! ‘It’s passed on! This link is no more! It has ceased to be! It’s expired and gone to meet its maker! It’s a stiff! Bereft of life, it rests in peace! If you hadn’t nailed it to the perch it’d be pushing up the daisies! Its metabolic processes are now ‘istory! It’s off the twig! It’s kicked the bucket, it’s shuffled off its mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin’ choir invisible!! THIS IS AN EX-LINK!! ” (hat-tip to Monty Python and the dead parrot sketch)
I have not claimed to be better qualified than anyone, on the contrary, I explicitly stated more than once that I am a student, here to learn.
Weing, you are becoming too ridiculous. Read your own posts. I said I was skeptical, you replied with a comment that I was immune. Your comments have been particularly unenlightening and I don’t see any reason to venture further down that road by posting additional questions for your consumption. So yes, I am ignoring you.
Daedalus, thanks for the comments, I will ponder them. As for why don’t I post on AoA or HufPo, to what purpose? I am not trying to convince anyone of anything. I am trying to educate myself.
Why are some of you so annoyed by my questioning? If you’re annoyed then stop reading my posts. Simple.
Apparently participating in blog discussions is an emotional catharsis for many, rather than an information gathering endeavor. To each his own.
You make a claim that there are extreme positions on either side of the vaccine debate but refuse to say what they are. And I am the one who is ridiculous and refusing to gather information?
Weing: I am often ridiculous. Now the accusation is that I’m refusing to gather information.
Daedalus: The last few posts assume that I suggested spending more money on autism research. I did not make that suggestion. As stated, the topic of autism was an example for the topic of communicating science to the public.
Back to the topic. I never suggested muzzling anyone, much less the “most knowledgeable segment of society” (I assume you mean most knowledgeable within the field of science, after all, scientists are not the most knowledgeable about the law, finance and a host of other subjects) I see what you mean, it is a great burden to speak so precisely and factually when kicking back at the country club. But when writing a book about your area of expertise? Where does that activity fall on the spectrum between wearing a lab coat and kicking back with a beer? As for the justification that “others are doing it (exaggerating or speaking imprecisely), why shouldn’t we?” Why would scientists want to emulate the uninformed babbling of the teeming masses? With the burden/privilege of wearing the mantle of “most knowledgeable” comes much responsibility. Just my opinion, of course.
In the example of Offit’s book, is he speaking as a scientist, an uninformed citizen or something in between?
BTW, I love your idea of prefacing our comments with ““I don’t know or understand what I am talking about, but my uninformed opinion is…..” In fact, that is a given for most people on most topics. Perhaps we could all have this tatooed on our foreheads.
Still no answer, just a dodge, and not too artful. Don’t be so stingy with your knowledge and share.
weing, s/he/it is just a concern troll. You will not get any real answers, stop feeding s/he/it.
The omniscient HCN has weighed in yet again with a biased opinion, to which s/he/it is entitled. Would that I were so all-knowing. It must obviate the need for thinking. What a relief that must be.
I’m afraid I am becoming a bit sarcastic, perhaps it’s contagious.
One word from Dr. Pavlov and everyone is mute. What a well-trained consensus group. I suppose you don’t mind alienating the occasional skeptic in your vigilance to protect against concern trolls and divergent opinions, though it doesn’t seem as if there are any readers with divergent opinions.
I note that the consensus group has taken a page from the concern troll play book, what with the derogatory labeling and inflammatory accusations. I would think you would prefer not to criticize concern trolls while emulating them.
Perhaps only skeptics of a certain ilk are welcome. I did learn a few things, mostly about the concern troll phenomenon.
For what it’s worth, I found Dr. Crislip’s comments to be the most informative and honest.
[...] is needed is a study that compares autism rates in vaccinated vrs unvaccinated children. Given the benefits of vaccines, such a study could never be ethically done. To deliberately randomize children to not getting [...]