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Angell’s Review of Psychiatry

Marcia Angell has written a two-part article for The New York Review of Books: “The Epidemic of Mental Illness: Why?” and “The Illusions of Psychiatry.” It is a favorable review of 3 recent books:

and an unfavorable review of the most recent version of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, DSM-IV-TR. It paints a disturbing picture of psychiatry. It raises a number of serious concerns but it borders on psychiatry-bashing, a sport that I deplored in a previous post.

Angell has good credentials. She is an MD trained in internal medicine and pathology, a former editor of The New England Journal of Medicine, and is currently a Senior Lecturer at Harvard Medical School. When she speaks, she usually has something interesting to say. In a 1998 editorial she and Jerome Kassirer wrote

It is time for the scientific community to stop giving alternative medicine a free ride… There cannot be two kinds of medicine — conventional and alternative. There is only medicine that has been adequately tested and medicine that has not, medicine that works and medicine that may or may not work. Once a treatment has been tested rigorously, it no longer matters whether it was considered alternative at the outset. If it is found to be reasonably safe and effective, it will be accepted.

She has previously criticized the U.S. healthcare system and the pharmaceutical industry in her books Science on Trial: The Clash of Medical Evidence and the Law in the Breast Implant Case and The Truth About the Drug Companies: How They Deceive Us and What to Do About It.

Is There an Epidemic? We are seeing an apparent epidemic of mental illness. 46% of adults are diagnosed with mental illness at some point in their lives. Mental illness is now the leading cause of disability in children, with a 35-fold increase over the last two decades. The tally of those who are so disabled by mental disorders that they qualify for Supplemental Security Income (SSI) or Social Security Disability Insurance (SSDI) increased nearly two and a half times between 1987 and 2007—from one in 184 Americans to one in 76.

Is the incidence of mental illness really increasing? Or are we just getting better at diagnosing it? Or have we expanded the criteria for mental illness to where almost everyone can be classified as mentally ill?  It’s not clear.

My skeptical psychiatric consultant, Dr. William Hoffman, comments:

I suspect that the studies overestimate the lifetime prevalence of depression, anxiety, ADHD, etc. either because the diagnostic criteria are sufficiently vague or because normal individuals are incorrectly diagnosed with mental illness (Aragones et al., 2006).  The problem stems, in part, because depression, anxiety disorders and ADHD (this is a subset, but accounts for most of the problem) overlap with sadness, anxiety and inattentiveness that is not pathological. As there is no independent diagnostic test for these disorders, their prevalence depends critically on where the severity line is drawn in the diagnostic criteria.  Tighten the depression criteria and there are fewer depressed people.  Additionally, in clinical practice, diagnostic criteria may simply not be used (Zimmerman and Galione, 2010).

There are several forces that drive looser diagnostic criteria (Mulder, 2008):

  1. Pharmaceutical companies certainly benefit from more inclusive criteria, higher prevalence rates and more prescriptions written. An indication for depression is a gold mine for a pharma company; witness the stampede to get depression indications for antipsychotics. Industry influence can be felt in the design of clinical trials, industry supported education of providers (remember, most antidepressants are prescribed by primary care providers) and direct marketing of the drugs.
  2. Looser diagnostic criteria can give the illusion that the clinician is helping more people. Coupled with the (almost certainly erroneous) belief that pharmacotherapy is at worst harmless, this leads to prescriptive practices treat people who do not even meet the permissive DSM-IV criteria (“Dr. Hoffman, why would you deny this patient the possibility that Superdrug might help them? Can’t you see that she’s suffering?”).
  3. Permissive criteria also indirectly foster the clinical impression of efficacy. Normative sadness is by definition a time limited phenomenon and, if a sad person is treated with an antidepressant, they certainly cease being sad sometime after drug initiation. Clinicians don’t have as much experience with sad people who weren’t treated with drugs and got better sometime after the decision to withhold pharmacotherapy.

It’s reasonable to hypothesize that permissive diagnostic criteria are responsible for the high rate of failed trials of antidepressants and of the meta-analytic finding that ‘mild’ depression responds to antidepressants no better than to placebo. There are other possible (not mutually exclusive) explanations for these findings (diagnostic heterogeneity, e.g.), but criterion creep probably accounts for a lot of the problem.

How much are pharmaceutical companies to blame? The three authors agree that the pharmaceutical industry has unduly influenced our thinking about diagnosis and treatment. Studies have shown that psychiatrists receive more money from pharmaceutical companies than physicians in any other specialty. In his book, Carlat explains that psychiatrists are an easy target because

Our diagnoses are subjective and expandable, and we have few rational reasons for choosing one treatment over another.

It is illegal for pharmaceutical companies to encourage off-label prescription in their marketing efforts. Several firms have been charged with such offenses in recent years. Angell thinks the laws should cover not just companies, but physicians. She says:

I believe doctors should be prohibited from prescribing psychoactive drugs off-label.

I disagree. Sometimes off-label indications are justified by published evidence before formal approval is obtained. A blanket prohibition on off-label prescribing would slow the incorporation of new knowledge into clinical practice and would be an unwarranted interference with physician autonomy and clinical judgment.

Financial considerations affect individual providers and patients as well as pharmaceutical companies.

Like most other psychiatrists, Carlat treats his patients only with drugs, not talk therapy, and he is candid about the advantages of doing so. If he sees three patients an hour for psychopharmacology, he calculates, he earns about $180 per hour from insurers. In contrast, he would be able to see only one patient an hour for talk therapy, for which insurers would pay him less than $100.

Children are increasingly being given psychoactive drugs that have not been studied in children. Children from low-income families are four times as likely to be on these drugs. SSI income is a strong incentive for labeling them with a qualifying diagnosis.

Are These Diseases Caused by Chemical Imbalance? None of the three authors subscribes to the popular belief that mental illness is caused by a chemical imbalance in the brain.  Indeed, the evidence for it is very shaky.  All we really know for sure is that the chemistry of the brain changes in patients on medication.

My psychiatric consultant Dr. Hoffman agrees that the chemistry imbalance hypothesis is simplistic, misleading, and essentially wrong. However, he argues that this is not a reason to abandon psychoactive medications:

This is not to say that major depression, anxiety disorders and ADHD don’t exist or that no one should be treated with psychotropics for these disorders. Severely depressed people, e.g. those with melancholia, do not improve in a short time, are markedly unresponsive to normal rewards, have group differences in fMRI responses and are much more likely to respond to pharmacotherapy and much less likely to respond to placebo (Heinzel et al., 2009; Horn et al., 2010).  Are patients with melancholia qualitatively different from more mildly unhappy people? That is, does the mechanism by which they are unhappy differ from more usual sadness? Do they have a ‘chemical imbalance’? Let’s look at a more straightforward example.

Schizophrenia is a brain disease. ECA (Epidemiologic Catchment Area) estimates of the prevalence of schizophrenia have not changed. The prevalence of schizophrenia is the same (about 1%) in every human culture and ethnic group. The phenotype of schizophrenia is markedly different from normality and does not overlap much with normal behavior. Schizophrenics as a group have many biologically replicable differences from non-psychotic individuals, although the pathognomonic diagnostic test eludes us still. This qualitative and quantitative difference is reflected in the lower rate of failed clinical trials of antipsychotics and the very low rate of placebo response. Is schizophrenia due to a ‘chemical imbalance’?

Nope. But then, neither is any other neuropsychiatric disorder.

Schizophrenia is one of the most intensely studied neuropsychiatric disorders. No credible neuroscientist doubts that the schizophrenic syndrome arises from genetically influenced brain abnormalities present at birth that interact with subsequent brain development and environmental contributors in a manner that increases the risk of undergoing a psychotic transition sometime in adolescence or early adulthood. Dopamine D2 family antagonists are the only (even partially) effective treatment for some of the symptoms. Despite three decades of looking, there does not seem to be a large primary abnormality in the dopaminergic system in schizophrenics’ brains. Contemporary conceptions of schizophrenic pathology concern abnormalities in brain circuitry (Swerdlow, 2011).  DA modulates the function of some of those circuits and, through this mechanism, DA blockade exerts its influence. Greater DAergic stimulation (like by cocaine) makes schizophrenic symptoms worse and DA blockade makes it a bit better, but the actual state of affairs is quite complex and not due to a simple chemical imbalance.  Depression fits this simplistic model even more poorly, particularly because depression (perhaps of lesser severity) will respond to psychosocial interventions while schizophrenia does not.

Borderline personality disorder, another syndrome that is relatively reliably (don’t know yet about validity) defined responds poorly to drugs and best to specific psychosocial interventions (Gunderson, 2011; Leichsenring et al., 2011). Does response to non-pharmacologic interventions mean that the disorder under consideration is not a brain disease? Does this mean that the individual is somehow more responsible for their disorder than someone with, say Parkinson’s disease? Certainly not. The affective, behavioral and cognitive dysregulation in borderlines is based on genetic and developmental variance from the norm. No one would choose borderline personality disorder as a lifestyle.  It’s just that that disorder, like milder depression, occurs in a brain that is able to respond to techniques that get the patient to practice behaviors that preclude their more troubling symptoms.

This is a source of some confusion and is reflected in some of the authors’ work in the review. Just because the chemical imbalance model is too simplistic (or just plain silly) as an explanation of a disorder does not suggest that the disorder doesn’t exist or imply that (and this is never explicitly stated, only implied) the disorder is not really dependent on brain function in the same way as, say, Parkinson’s Disease. To the extent that the disorder can be reliably diagnosed and has adequate validity (one could readily argue that some DSM-IV disorders lack validity), it must, of necessity, reflect variant brain function.

So why does the model persist? William Hoffman again:

There are many reasons why the chemical imbalance model persists despite no real evidential support of its primary form. Busy clinicians like simplicity. It frees them from uncertainty and provides a guide to purportedly healing actions. A common complaint from psych residents about presentations of the neurobiology of psychiatric disorders is, “But how does this neuroanatomical circuit stuff tell me what to do?” And it doesn’t always tell clinicians what to do, although sometimes it might tell them what to avoid. If one can go through the depression checklist, determine that the person meets criteria, prescribe the first antidepressant on the algorithm (or the miracle drug discussed at the drug dinner last night) and then move on to the next person, one can avoid the anxiety of saying, “Ms. Smith, it sounds like you’ve had a tough time lately. A lot of people react with feelings of sadness in this situation. But most people also pull out of it without having to use antidepressants. I’d like to prescribe an activity schedule that will get you out of the house and doing some of the things that you enjoy. I’m glad you identified a friend who’d be willing to be a short term coach and get you out even when you don’t feel like it. I’d also like you to see Dr. X, who can teach you some new mental techniques that have been shown to help with your kind of sadness. You’ll see him twice a week at first and I’d like you to meet with our activity therapist to review your activity schedule. I’ll see you in a couple weeks to see if you’re able to benefit from this plan.” That’s a complex plan and, because it involves extra visits, it might be more expensive than saying, “Here are some samples of Sliced Bread and a prescription for when those run out. Antidepressants take about three weeks to start working, so I’ll see you for 15 minutes in three weeks.” Pharma is able to exploit clinicians’ desire to help patients and their anxiety in the face of scientific indeterminacy with drugs (Newer! Better! More powerful! [More expensive]) and a plan for their use.

How do psychiatrists arrive at a diagnosis?

[Carlat’s] work consists of asking patients a series of questions about their symptoms to see whether they match up with any of the disorders in the DSM. This matching exercise, he writes, provides “the illusion that we understand our patients when all we are doing is assigning them labels.” Often patients meet criteria for more than one diagnosis, because there is overlap in symptoms.

How do psychiatrists decide which drug to prescribe? Carlat says:

Guided purely by symptoms, we try different drugs, with no real conception of what we are trying to fix, or of how the drugs are working. I am perpetually astonished that we are so effective for so many patients.

Are psychoactive drugs merely placebos? Kirsch has been on something of a crusade to prove that hypothesis. His interpretation of the data on anti-depressants differs from Erick Turner’s interpretation of the same data because of a different understanding of effect size., as I explained in a previous post.

Studies showing that psychoactive drugs are more effective than placebo do not show a very large difference, and it has been speculated that the side effects of these drugs reveal to the patient that he is not getting a placebo, thereby enhancing the placebo effect of the drug. Studies using an “active” placebo that causes side effects seem to support this hypothesis. But a more definitive way to test it would be to do an “exit poll” asking subjects whether they thought they had been assigned to the placebo group or the drug group. In acupuncture studies, subjects who believed they were in the true acupuncture group improved more than those who believed they were in the control group — no matter which group they were actually in! As far as I know, no similar studies have been done for psychoactive medications.

Are these drugs harmful? Whitaker argues that psychoactive drugs may be responsible for turning episodic illness into chronic illness. He says antipsychotic drugs shrink the brain. By altering brain chemistry, they may cause disease. For instance, anti-depressants can cause episodes of mania resulting in a new diagnosis of bipolar disorder. He thinks we are seeing an iatrogenic epidemic of brain dysfunction. It can be difficult to get off the drugs because the brain has adapted to their presence. He particularly demonizes Zyprexa. His arguments are not convincingly supported by evidence, but they do suggest directions for research.

Is the DSM based on science? It appears to be strongly influenced by opinion. It is disturbing that the number of diagnoses keeps increasing, from 182 to 365.

Even Allen Frances, chairman of the DSM-IV task force, is highly critical of the expansion of diagnoses in the DSM-V. In the June 26, 2009, issue of Psychiatric Times, he wrote that the DSM-V will be a “bonanza for the pharmaceutical industry but at a huge cost to the new false positive patients caught in the excessively wide DSM-V net.”

As Angell says,

It looks as though it will be harder and harder to be normal.

The DSM is a noble but flawed effort to standardize psychiatric diagnosis and make it more rational. I’m afraid we are stuck with it. It won’t go away, but we can hope to make it better and more scientific. Despite its flaws, it’s arguably better than going back to pre-DSM days.

Are non-drug options preferable? Angell argues that:

At the very least, we need to stop thinking of psychoactive drugs as the best, and often the only, treatment for mental illness or emotional distress. Both psychotherapy and exercise have been shown to be as effective as drugs for depression, and their effects are longer-lasting.

Yes, but. Non-drug options are not effective for the most severe cases. Psychotherapy can be next to impossible in severely impaired patients, and drug therapy must be added to enable them to respond and cooperate with psychotherapy. And how successful has anyone ever been in getting a severely depressed patient to go out and exercise? Sometimes they can’t even get out of bed.

Conclusion

Angell calls the books she reviews “powerful indictments of the way psychiatry is now practiced.” Indictments have their place, but we mustn’t ignore all the things modern psychiatry gets right. It has (mostly) rejected Freud and is making a valiant effort to become more evidence-based. It has prevented suicides, alleviated incapacitating symptoms, and helped patients enjoy a reasonably normal life at home instead of in a locked ward. Instead of throwing out the baby with the bathwater, how can we employ common sense and rigorous science to improve psychiatric care? Neither Angell nor the books she reviews offer any concrete proposals for improvement. Angell says one thing I can heartily agree with:

Our reliance on psychoactive drugs, seemingly for all of life’s discontents, tends to close off other options… we need to do better.

Hear, hear!

Acknowledgement: Thanks to Dr. William Hoffman for his input. He is a psychiatrist at the Portland VA Medical Center and the Oregon Health & Science University.

Disclaimer: Dr. Hoffman’s opinions expressed herein are his alone and not the opinions of the Department of Veterans Affairs, OHSU, or his cat.

Reference List

Aragones E, Pinol JL, Labad A (The overdiagnosis of depression in non-depressed patients in primary care. Fam Pract 23:363-368.2006).

Gunderson JG (Clinical practice. Borderline personality disorder. N Engl J Med 364:2037-2042.2011).

Heinzel A, Grimm S, Beck J, Schuepbach D, Hell D, Boesiger P, Boeker H, Northoff G (Segregated neural representation of psychological and somatic-vegetative symptoms in severe major depression. Neurosci Lett 456:49-53.2009).

Horn DI, Yu C, Steiner J, Buchmann J, Kaufmann J, Osoba A, Eckert U, Zierhut KC, Schiltz K, He H, Biswal B, Bogerts B, Walter M (Glutamatergic and resting-state functional connectivity correlates of severity in major depression – the role of pregenual anterior cingulate cortex and anterior insula. Front Syst Neurosci 4.2010).

Leichsenring F, Leibing E, Kruse J, New AS, Leweke F (Borderline personality disorder. Lancet 377:74-84.2011).

Mulder RT (An epidemic of depression or the medicalization of distress? Perspect Biol Med 51:238-250.2008).

Swerdlow NR (Are we studying and treating schizophrenia correctly? Schizophr Res 130:1-10.2011).

Zimmerman M, Galione J (Psychiatrists’ and nonpsychiatrist physicians’ reported use of the DSM-IV criteria for major depressive disorder. J Clin Psychiatry 71:235-238.2010).

Posted in: Book & movie reviews, Neuroscience/Mental Health

Leave a Comment (273) ↓

267 Comments

  1. libby August 6, 2011

    HH:

    I was responding to WHAT WEING SAID, not trying to give a synopsis of everything I have said on this board. But you know that already.

    I also said that homeopaths should be better trained on a level with doctors, something you quoted, but then with lightening speed dropped from your interpretations, along with leaving out several clarifications which I posted several times. Repeating THE LIE, as I have stated, and ignoring the clarifications turns your post, and those of yours preceding it, into propaganda, albeit lacking sophistication.

    And how does accusing homeopaths of needing to be better trained end up in the simplistic epithet “good”??????

  2. Chris August 6, 2011

    libby:

    I also said that homeopaths should be better trained on a level with doctors,

    Well, then there would not be any. If they had the same chemistry and physics as a doctor (or any high school graduate taking college prep) they would understand that homeopathy is literally nothing.

  3. libby August 6, 2011

    daedylus:

    “When asked for reasons to not trust psychiatrists, you bring up events of more than 50 years ago; the CIA in the 1950′s, publications in 1956, 1958, 1960, 1961 and 1962, all of them by Ewen Cameron. He died in 1967.”

    To be clear, I was not asked by anyone for reasons not to trust psychiatrists. I was supporting what had already been stated as a fact, and was simply supplying some references.

    OK. The problem of Zomax, even though it is now off the market, is still with us because neither you, nor the doctors on this board, nor physicians in general, nor health regulators, nor anyone except the parties involved will have access to concealed information on drug safety by the companies on ANY DRUG out there now. There may be no secret court trials on drugs going on right now, but there could be as well because most States don’t have legislation in place that prevents such concealment. The salient point is that we don’t know, and we should.

    If you are going to present an overview of what has occurred, and slice off as unimportant occurrences decades ago, you have to be satisfied that that structure (concealment of safety concerns) is not longer in place today. It is of course.

    Zomax is just an example. Treating the problem as insignificant simply because this example of a flawed system is no longer on the market and the problem surfaced decades ago, is not an accurate analysis.

    I do appreciate what you are doing, but it is not an easy task by any means.

  4. nybgrus August 6, 2011

    I honestly had a bit of hope that Libby would actually take my invitation. Of course, to do that would mean she would have to renig on some of her statements, so really the odds were quite low.

    Libby, I’m sorry but you are merely continuing to dig a hole for yourself and prove more and more your off kilter ideology and emotional pleading.

    And please, homeopaths didn’t cure you of anything. Homepathy is a load of garbage.

    Sadly, I will not be participating much on these forums for the next week. I have family arriving in town today so between some travel and entertainment and my regular studies I likely won’t have time. I’ll leave Libby to the rest of the extremely capable commentariat here :-)

    I do find it funny that I have now copy-pasted that same comment 3 times on 3 threads each with their person to deal with. Everybody has their, um, bugaboo if you will, and will glom on to particular topics. It is telling that they don’t cross streams much, I think.

  5. Harriet Hall August 6, 2011

    libby,

    We get it. Transparency should be required of drug companies. We fully agree. Nobody has even tried to disagree with you about that. You are fighting a straw man.

    You have repeatedly accused me of lying and now of spreading unsophisticated propaganda. I am not seriously offended, because I consider the source.

    We have pointed out how your testimonial about benefiting from homeopathy represents flawed thinking.

    I think it’s time for you to move on.

  6. DW August 6, 2011

    Libby wrote:

    “After all, message boards are completely safe due to anonymity,”

    Uh Libby, the authors of this blog are not anonymous.

    Do you have evidence that the doctors here are accepting gifts from pharmaceutical companies?

    You appear concerned about ethics; so I’m sure if you have evidence for these accusations you will waste no time posting it now.

  7. libby August 7, 2011

    Let me show you all how inveterate the indoctrination is on this board.

    On another thread I had encouraged doctors to organize and openly support the Sunshine in Litigation Act, and Weing had replied that antitrust laws prohibit this.

    On this thread Weing took umbrage at my comment about the low intellectual level on this board, and so I brought his antitrust confusion up again to illustrate the point.

    I waited to see if anyone on this board would step forward to correct Weing in his confusion, as nothing was said on the first thread. He is obviously well off the mark in both his lack of understanding of antitrust laws as they pertain to his own profession, and his lack of basic understanding of his 1st Amendment rights.

    So why did no one step forward to correct him?

    Because Weing is an adherent to the medical system. He is untouchable. Untouchables can make any foolish, asinine statement they want. They don’t have to support their views, nor do they need much knowledge or understanding. They don’t have to play fair. They can even name-call any opponent of the system with impunity. They continually get complimented by the other untouchables. It’s a bit like witnessing a cyber hug fest.

    On the other hand, if someone challenges the corruption within the medical system, and there is a lot of material there that needs to be addressed, everything that person says is carefully dissected and attacked, usually with the predictable twisted and distorted interpretations.

    The sad thing is that debunking sites such as this don’t solve any of the real issues that desperately need attention.

  8. libby August 7, 2011

    HH:

    “I think it’s time for you to move on.”

    That is none of your concern.

  9. libby August 7, 2011

    weing:

    “I don’t have the financial resources to hire a lawyer to advise me how to skirt around the various laws.”

    You need a lawyer to read you the 1st Amendment of the US Constitution?

    Here it is:

    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

    Re antitrust laws and physicians, there are already organizations in place that have been unaffected by antitrust laws, such as the International Physicians for the Prevention of Nuclear War. Their headquarters are in Massachusetts. They seem to be experiencing little trouble with antitrust laws.

    IPPNW Central Office
    66-70 Union Square, #204
    Somerville, MA 02143 USA
    Tel:+1.617.440.1733

  10. libby August 7, 2011

    DW:

    “Uh Libby, the authors of this blog are not anonymous.”

    Uh DW, the authors of this blog have CHOSEN not to be anonymous.

  11. Chris August 7, 2011

    libby:

    On the other hand, if someone challenges the corruption within the medical system, and there is a lot of material there that needs to be addressed, everything that person says is carefully dissected and attacked, usually with the predictable twisted and distorted interpretations.

    If you read this blog you will realize that those who blog here do that also. You might also be interested in this blog:
    http://retractionwatch.wordpress.com/

    W had a relative who came out of the county psyche ward after six weeks feeling the best she had for years. The reasons for that was because not only did she get real psychiatric help that included both talk therapy and medication, but also being pushed to do things we had been telling her to do for years: take walks and eat sensibly.

    She ended up there because she had a psychotic break while her mother was visiting, her mother panicked and called “911.” The police came, she ran back into her house, and they called an ambulance. The ambulance crew had to navigate the pathways in her cluttered house. She was eventually diagnosed with a bipolar disorder. Which explained the days when she could not leave her bed and the others where she bought things with abandon (her step-father paid her debts after she got out of the hospital).

    She was stabilized and actually felt good when she left the psyche ward. But the problem was that there was no follow-up and she had to go back to the out-patient clinic herself. She decided to go back to a naturapath who prescribed some rather expensive homeopathic medicine.

    She slid back into old habits. She did realize the homeopathic meds were worthless, but still decided against the out patient clinic. So she got worse and committed suicide.

    This is why I am really really very angry at homeopaths who pretend to be psychotherapists.

    So, libby, I don’t care what your opinions are… I want to know what you have as facts. If you are going to demonize medicine, then you need to also look at homeopathy with a critical eye. If you want to expose the corruption of the medical system, then why don’t you challenge the corruption of homeopathy and other forms of alternative medicine?

    Why the double standard?

  12. libby August 7, 2011

    “We get it. Transparency should be required of drug companies. We fully agree. Nobody has even tried to disagree with you about that. You are fighting a straw man.”

    I was talking about the public’s perception of doctors and their silence on such issues. Now do you “get it”? Do you not see the difference between the idea of transparency and the idea of the public’s perception of who is supportive of transparency? Understanding this difference does not take a linguistics degree.

    “You have repeatedly accused me of lying and now of spreading unsophisticated propaganda. I am not seriously offended, because I consider the source.”

    Your umbrage is of no interest to me. I point out your lies because I will not accept such behaviour. If you misunderstand a passage, then ask for clarification. However it is a foul tactic to repeatedly misinterpret an initial passage and ignore all subsequent clarifications. Doing that is lying.

    “We have pointed out how your testimonial about benefiting from homeopathy represents flawed thinking.”

    That’s fine. I have no problem with people disagreeing with me or trying to offer explanations of my experiences in a way that is rational and convincing. I find that very useful because it makes me think.

  13. libby August 7, 2011

    Chris:

    “If you want to expose the corruption of the medical system, then why don’t you challenge the corruption of homeopathy and other forms of alternative medicine?”

    So basically Chris you want me to spend hours investigating corruption in every health field out there while you sit on your ass, twiddle your thumbs, and wait for the results.

    That’s fine. I charge $90/hr. As soon as your bank draft arrives for the first week’s pay, I’ll begin the work.

  14. pmoran August 7, 2011

    I point out your lies —-

    Why so offensive? It is inconceivable that Harriet would deliberately lie to you.

  15. weing August 7, 2011

    “You need a lawyer to read you the 1st Amendment of the US Constitution?”

    I told you that “I know squat about law. I don’t have the financial resources to hire a lawyer to advise me how to skirt around the various laws.”

    I know enough to know that I don’t know. If you are an attorney, then you have knowledge that I don’t, and I will not argue the point.

    You referenced Stanford’s policy on pharma relationships, such policies BTW are not confined to Stanford. But Stanford and other centers have allowed quackery to infiltrate into the medical system and legitimized it. This , to me, is a much greater problem. The perception that quackery is legitimate medicine by people who should know better as well as those who know squat about medicine, is the one that I am concerned with. I have found that the bloggers here share this concern. I don’t think that you do. Correct me if I am wrong.

  16. micheleinmichigan August 7, 2011

    Libby “The sad thing is that debunking sites such as this don’t solve any of the real issues that desperately need attention.”

    When my grandmother was in her 60s, she found a new painful dimple in her breast. She showed it to her Chiropractor, because she thought he was a real doctor. Instead of saying that he didn’t know what is was or sending her to her GP, her sold her a cream to put on it. Which she used for about a year until her next annual appointment. Luckily, she did not die, it was a very slow growing cancer.

    Many people use and spend lots of money on therapies that have no evidence for effectiveness. Some of these therapies are highly or totally implausible. Some of them are dangerous.

    Many of these people are like my grandma, they don’t know that there is no evidence or that there is nothing in science that says it could work. They are using these therapies because someone who they trust told them it would work.

    I think someone with an understanding in medicine needs to speak up so that those of us who don’t know a lot about science can protect ourselves from people like my grandma’s chiropractor if we want.

    I appreciate that the authors here do it without pay. I have learned a good amount on this site, not just about scam artists, but also about the way that doctors look at research and the logical fallacies that can effect patients AND doctors. Interesting.

    I think it’s darn useful. I think it solves real issues that effect my life.

    It may not be useful to you, Libby. So? Is there some rule that all blogs must address issues that Libby feels are important? Are you going over to http://www.modifiedpowerwheels.com/ to reprimand them with comments on how their insisent power wheels hack tips don’t address the global warming crisis?

  17. micheleinmichigan August 7, 2011

    damn, affect, not effect.

  18. DW August 7, 2011

    Uh Libby. You have lost track of your own accusations, not for the first time. You gave a bogus little “anthropological” analysis of postings here, claiming basically that posters were shielded by anonymity. The only problem with that little insinuation was that it wasn’t true – the doctors writing this blog sign their names.

    This is exactly the bait and switch that you pulled regarding the “ties to pharma” accusation. I’m pointing out your tactics. You implied very plainly and obviously that docs here probably had pharma ties, and when they (HH to be specific) replied that she does not, you claimed you weren’t talking about her in the first place, and referred us to a JAMA article. Uh, the JAMA article doesn’t shed any light on whether HH has pharma ties or not and we do all know what you were implying … nice try backing off your own unethical, unsubstantiated acccusations. Now you accuse them of posting anonymously and when we point out that, well, they aren’t anonymous, you say Well that’s their choice then isn’t it! You argue like you are about five years old.

  19. DW August 7, 2011

    “Let me show you all how inveterate the indoctrination is on this board … on another thread …”

    No no, hon. Not “on another thread.” THIS thread. You were going to post your evidence that the doctors here accept gifts from pharma. Remember?

  20. DW August 7, 2011

    “”Untouchables can make any foolish, asinine statement they want. They don’t have to support their views, ”

    So you wouldn’t want to be like that. If you made an accusation, you would support it.

    Right?

  21. DW August 7, 2011

    Libby,

    Here is the information the editors of this blog have posted regarding their “ties to pharma.” It seems straightforward.

    http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/editorial-staff/

    This pages states that the SBM blog receives no industry funding and has no conflicts of interest. The editors’ bios are all there.

    Here is Dr. Gorski’s:
    http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/editorial-staff/david-h-gorski-md-phd-managing-editor/

    It states that he currently holds a 30,000 euro grant from Bayer HealthCare.

    If you have information that casts doubt on any of this information, or suggests it is incomplete, you are ethically obligated to post it here. If you make accusations, you need to back them up. Surely you can understand that. It’s clear that your understanding of medical ethics is shaky, but surely you can understand simple human decency. False or unsubstantiated accusations are not ethical.

  22. DW August 7, 2011

    All the contributors’ bios are here:

    http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/contributors/

  23. libby August 7, 2011

    pmoran:

    HH thinks I have accused her of ties to big pharma (gifting). That is untrue. I clarified my original post in several different ways on different occasions, because there seemed to be a gross and unreasonable misunderstanding of the original. I even told her I would have no way of knowing if she had ties to the drug industry (gifting), and that that information in any case would be of no relevance to the broader picture. She even claimed at one point that my intentions in the original might be different than what was written, but then she ignored all the clarifications that clearly showed my intention.

    Her tactic is to repeatedly cut and paste the original post, omitting and ignoring any of the subsequent clarifications. That is dishonest. I’ve asked her to stop this tactic, and she has ignored my requests. To repeat her own misinterpretation of the original post when it has already been clarified is lying. She must know she is lying.

    I will not put up with tactics such as that.

    If people on this board want to have a respectful discussion I have not problem with that. But if they want to play foul debating games, it will be met with resistance.

    If that is unacceptable to this board, then I can always be banned.

  24. libby August 7, 2011

    DWL

    “the doctors writing this blog sign their names.”

    BY THEIR OWN CHOICE.

    If they want protection from anonymity, then that is available.

    Do you not comprehend the difference between “compulsory” and “optional”.

  25. libby August 7, 2011

    DW:

    “So you wouldn’t want to be like that. If you made an accusation, you would support it.”

    Just read the thread.

  26. libby August 7, 2011

    DW:

    “No no, hon. Not “on another thread.” THIS thread. You were going to post your evidence that the doctors here accept gifts from pharma. Remember?”

    You haven’t read “THIS thread”. You don’t know what has been discussed.

  27. libby August 7, 2011

    @ micheleinmichigan

    I can’t really speak for the US. Just last year, in Canada all health products were reclassified as drugs and all had to apply for a registration code that confirms they perform in the way that is advertized. In our local health store, that has affected about 5% of the items in the store (5% have been pulled) mostly because these smaller companies cannot cough up the cash to pay for the expensive registration process.

    According to Health Canada, most of these remedies must work as intended.

  28. micheleinmichigan August 7, 2011

    Libby, That is not the case in the U.S. You will note that most, if not all of the contributors and editors on this blog are practicing or did practice in the U.S, not Canada, when they talk about problems with regulation and licensing it is most often the U.S.

    If you do not believe that Harriet Hall or any of the other contributors here are accepting gifts from pharmaceutical companies, then it seems that you should be happy with them. They are meeting the standards that Stanford and a good number of other medical facilities are now following.

    Why are you not praising Harriet and the other writers here at SBM for setting a good example?

  29. weing August 7, 2011

    Hmmm. How’s that go? “full of sound and fury, signifying nothing”

  30. Harriet Hall August 7, 2011

    libby said “Because Weing is an adherent to the medical system. He is untouchable. Untouchables can make any foolish, asinine statement they want. They don’t have to support their views, nor do they need much knowledge or understanding. They don’t have to play fair. They can even name-call any opponent of the system with impunity. They continually get complimented by the other untouchables. It’s a bit like witnessing a cyber hug fest.
    On the other hand, if someone challenges the corruption within the medical system, and there is a lot of material there that needs to be addressed, everything that person says is carefully dissected and attacked, usually with the predictable twisted and distorted interpretations.”

    Any regular reader knows this is not true. Libby’s thinking is so distorted by anger, paranoia, hubris, and conspiracy theories that she has lost contact with reality. And she’s insulting as well. I’m through with her.

  31. Chris August 7, 2011

    libby, why do you give homeopathy a pass? Why do you think that it should be given free rein why you demonize real medicine and doctors?

  32. DW August 7, 2011

    I think Libby does not really know what she has accused people of, or when. She repeats things that made no sense the first time around, and feels beleaguered when this is pointed out. I don’t think there’s much hope of clarification.

    Libby, one more time: whether the docs here are signing their names “voluntarily” is not the point. The point I was making was that you insinuated they are somehow shielded by anonymity. This just doesn’t have any relevance if in fact they AREN’T anonymous. Get it? Your accusation did not make sense. Repeating to me that “it’s their choice” is irrelevant.

    And if you have in fact posted the evidence that docs here are accepting gifts from pharma, as you tell me, and I’m simply so stupid that I haven’t seen it, then humor me, do me a favor because I’m a stupid person, and cut and paste it in again. Somehow, I missed it. Evidence that Harriet Hall or anyone else here is accepting gifts from pharma is not in that JAMA article, Libby, and you know that, and you also know that is exactly what you insinuated, and only backed off when challenged.

    What ought to come next, after one is challenged to support an accusation and cannot do so, is an apology.

  33. libby August 7, 2011

    HH:

    “I’m through with her.”

    Don’t slam the door on the way out.

  34. libby August 7, 2011

    @micheleinmichigan:

    I laud all of the writers on this board for setting a good example by not receiving gifts from drug companies.

    I never at any time thought about individual doctors here receiving gifts because it was irrelevant to my posts. I read the JAMA study and there were no names listed. Nor did the Stanford University site list any names of doctors. So if I were saying that doctors on SBM received gifts I would have no source for that information. That is why I never made any such accusation. And that is why when my original post was misinterpreted, I clarified it several times.

    What I found offensive was that these clarifications were ignored. Other posters would then pick up the baton and run with this false information asking me to prove that doctors here have ties to drug companies, something I had never said.

    Have you ever heard of memes. This thread is a good example of that. And it is also a good example of Mark Twain’s famous quote:

    “A lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes.”

  35. DW August 7, 2011

    Libby:

    “I laud all of the writers on this board for setting a good example by not receiving gifts from drug companies.

    I never at any time thought about individual doctors here receiving gifts because it was irrelevant to my posts. I read the JAMA study and there were no names listed.”

    This is progress. Now I suggest an apology for your false insinuations.

  36. libby August 7, 2011

    Let’s look at some of HH’s damage.

    By misinterpreting a post and repeating it numerous times, where others pick it up and continue the distortions, we now end up with DW, days later, again repeating these distortions either because he hasn’t bothered to read the initial posts (the most likely scenario) or he can’t manage even the most basic ideas.

    This is the legacy of HH.

  37. DW August 7, 2011

    I read all the posts, Libby. (And I’m not a he.)

  38. DW August 7, 2011

    Here’s a little review.

    When Harriet Hall wrote:

    “Just because we aren’t as vocal about it as you would wish, or as angry and emotionally involved as you are, that’s no reason for you to assume we have ties with drug companies. We don’t have any such ties, much less ties that are “too close for the patient’s good.””

    Libby replied:

    “There are reasons. The JAMA study is only one.”

    So Libby: Harriet said there was “no reason” for you to think the docs here had ties with drug companies and you replied, “There are reasons.” You were saying you had reason to believe she was not telling the truth. I mean Libby, she ought to know if she has ties to pharma, don’t you think? It’s not like she just might have made a little mistake. Plainly, you aimed to convey that she might be lying.

    HH again:

    “We don’t have any such ties (between drug companies and physicians), much less ties that are “too close for the patient’s good.” ”

    Libby replied:

    “A study in JAMA belies the testimonial evidence you proffer, ”

    Again Libby: You stated clearly that you have a piece of evidence “belying” HH’s denial. Did you maybe not know what “belying” means? It means “giving the lie to”; your statement means that you believed HH was lying. When she said the docs here don’t have pharma ties, you plainly accused her of lying.

    An apology is called for. Not more self-pity.

  39. libby August 7, 2011

    DW:

    Here’s a little lesson for you.

    When HH says ‘we”, who is she talking about?

  40. DW August 7, 2011

    The doctors who blog here, Libby.

    I am only an occasional reader here, but I have read the whole thread and I saw what happened. This started when you stated that doctors here were not as concerned as you thought they should be about pharmaceutical company influence on prescribing.

    HH then replied that docs here shared this concern with you and do not have ties to pharma. You then wrote several follow-ups; every time HH denied having such ties, your replies implied that you did not believe her. You stated specifically that you had evidence to the contrary.

  41. libby August 7, 2011

    DW:

    And how do you know that “we” refers to the “doctors who blog here”?

  42. DW August 7, 2011

    Ok, we’ll backtrack a little further. The original quote from HH:

    “I support such legislation, and I’m sure the rest of the SBM doctors do too. You didn’t have to convince us. How could any reasonable person NOT support such legislation? Just because we aren’t as vocal about it as you would wish, or as angry and emotionally involved as you are, that’s no reason for you to assume we have ties with drug companies. We don’t have any such ties,”

    We = “I” (the speaker HH) + “the rest of the SBM doctors.”

    SBM = this blog. The SBM doctors = the doctors blogging here. “We” thus = HH plus the other doctors blogging here.

    Give it up, Libby, you made a mistake, why not just admit it.

  43. micheleinmichigan August 7, 2011

    Libby “What I found offensive was that these clarifications were ignored. Other posters would then pick up the baton and run with this false information asking me to prove that doctors here have ties to drug companies, something I had never said.”

    Your clarifications were not ignored. They were, at best, terribly unclear.

    I do not understand why you are using a blog run by doctors who do not accept gifts from pharmaceutical companies to repeatly reprimand doctors who do accepting gifts.

    But since you actually meant to praise Harriet Hall and the other SBM writers for setting a good example by not accepting gifts, before all the “If HH is telling the truth” confusion, let me make a suggestion.

    Modifiers work well in these circumstances. For instance. ‘Harriet Hall, I laud the fact that SBM doctors do not accept gifts, but SOME (or MANY depending upon the percentage of doctors) doctors do. I am concerned about how this practice affects those doctor’s medical decisions.

    Then you avoid confusion. Because if you want to praise the SBM doctor, you don’t want there to be confusion about who you are unhappy with. Right?

  44. libby August 8, 2011

    Let’s look at the original post that is causing so much confusion:

    “…..the doctors here have opted to remain silent on the issue, reinforcing the perception that the ties between physicians and drug companies are too close for the patient’s good.”

    Harriet Hall, and every SBM adherent that opposes me on this thread, thinks that the word “physicians” must include the physicians who are authors on this board. They then move on from this false assumption and conclude that the authors on this board are being personally attacked. I will show you that this is a seriously flawed interpretation.

    Let’s create 2 sentences that are syntactically the same as the one in question:

    1) “Two children, Sally and Tom, don’t walk their dogs, reinforcing the perception that children don’t like pets.”

    Using Harriet’s logic, “children” must include Sally and Tom. This is untrue. Sally and Tom might be paraplegics, and cannot walk their dog, but nonetheless love their pets. The only way that “children” must include Sally and Tom is if you qualify the statement to convey that idea, as below:

    1a) “Two children, Sally and Tom, who loathe their dogs, don’t walk them, reinforcing the perception that children don’t like pets.”

    1b) “Two children, Sally and Tom, don’t walk their dogs, reinforcing the perception that children don’t like pets, just like Sally and Tom.”

    Now the phrase is qualified. Sally and Tom must be included in the group of children who don’t like pets.

    2) “Bob and Ken don’t work out at the gym, reinforcing the perception that men don’t care about their looks.”

    Again, Harriet thinks “men” must include Bob and Ken and not be simply a general statement about men. Bob and Ken might be working out at the gym because they are preparing for a triathlon. They might also care about their looks.

    So now back to the original:

    “…..the doctors here have opted to remain silent on the issue, reinforcing the perception that the ties between physicians and drug companies are too close for the patient’s good.”

    It should now be clear. The word “physicians” cannot necessarily include the physicians on this board, but be a statement only about physicians IN GENERAL (more on that below). Doctors on this board might remain silent because they are too busy with the long hours of running a medical practice to make public policy statements. Look at the word “perception”. As in the examples above, the perception in the original post might be untrue.

    Now lets re-write the original post in the way that Harriet misinterpreted it:

    “…….the doctors here have opted to remain silent on the issue, reinforcing the perception that the ties between all physicians, each and every one, including those on this board, and drug companies are too close for the patient’s good.”

    This is a gross and clumsy misinterpretation of the original, and breaks the rules of semantics.

    The word “perception” in the original sentence cannot be ignored. We are not talking about truths, but perceptions of truths. These are not equivalent concepts. When a perception is being reinforced, it does not have to be an accurate perception for the sentence to convey a legitimate idea. The concept within the sentence can be true (perceptions based on particular actions), although the contents might be false (doctors might have no ties to drug companies).

    Is there anyone that does not understand this explanation? I don’t think I can make it any simpler.

    Further, when general statements are made, for example within the conclusion of every medical study ever published, it is assumed that impossibilities will not be mentioned for obvious reasons. It is very close to impossible that every physician would be gifted by drug companies. The likelihood of that is on a par with the likelihood that every automobile made in 2011 will not break down. It should not be necessary to have to qualify every statement to clarify highly unlikely possibilities, or to exclude alternate contextual frameworks. If we did, our language would grind to a halt. No one could say or write anything without attaching to almost every sentence a long list of exclusions.

    Alice is beautiful, in the context of North American societal standards, and assuming this does not pertain to, for example, some African tribal customs where beauty is attached to methods of neck elongation and cranial distortions, or to German society where preference is placed on heavier set paradigms of beauty, or to vestiges of Chinese culture where beauty is found in women whose feet have been bound and rendered unusable, or any other such example, or to sub-sets of North American culture like scientific communities, that place more emphasis on intellectual level as being beautiful as opposed to raw physical beauty portrayed in western fashion magazines or in pornographic literature, or to rural society where women who are physically strong are seen as beautiful, or any other example outside the North American pop and fashion culture of modern 21st century urban society.

  45. DW August 8, 2011

    Libby:
    “Harriet Hall, and every SBM adherent that opposes me on this thread, thinks that the word “physicians” must include the physicians who are authors on this board. They then move on from this false assumption and conclude that the authors on this board are being personally attacked.”

    No. I have posted a couple posts up this thread, the exact words that you used that accused doctors here, and replied to all of your distracting nonsense about who is “we” – showing clearly that in reply to clear “we” statements regarding the doctors here, you responded that you did not believe them. Obfuscating over this isn’t going to convince anyone.

  46. DW August 8, 2011

    “the doctors here have opted to remain silent on the issue, reinforcing the perception that the ties between physicians and drug companies are too close for the patient’s good.”

    C’mon you can’t be serious – the implication is clear. You are insinuating a reason that the “doctors here” are “remaining silent.” Or you expect us to believe there’s no connection between the first and second clauses of this sentence? In which case you deliberately posted nonsense.

    Give it a rest. We know what you meant.

  47. WilliamLawrenceUtridge August 8, 2011

    Wow, Carol Tavris and Elliot Aronson would have a field day here.

    Meta-point, the flaws of CAM and real medicine have nothing to do with each other. One succeeding doesn’t mean the other fails. Both have been criticized here for their science base and that is the uniting thread of the blog. Homeopathy doesn’t work because it can’t work, and there is no science to support it (that which appears to support it can easily be accounted for by non-magical/quantum means). Modern medicine has problems with it, including prescribing practices being biased by pharmaceutical manufacturers, as discussed here (my favourite example is the post on The Neurontin Seeding Trial last month by Dr. Novella). This blog criticizes medicine for problems with its scientific base, meaning any valid criticism about medicine being practiced in the absence of solid evidence. But ultimately each post, each practice, each drug criticized is totally independent of every other and it’s perfectly valid to split the attention of the blog to cover all of them in little nibbles. Libby’s criticism is apparently that we aren’t focussing the blog solely on her concern of the Big Pharma monster. Frankly, I don’t give a rat’s ass since there are many bugbears to be addressed.

    Three further, and amusing points:

    a) Libby is a hypocrite now on several levels, since she has now played the Hitler card, which she complained about me doing so a while back. Nothing much else to say, I just find it amusing.

    b) I think “Libby” might be an indication that she is a “libertarian”, which is fairly synonymous with letting your wants run roughshod over reality. Hence why it’s like banging your head against a brick wall.

    c) Dr. Hall is retired. To be consistently accused of having her current prescribing habits influenced by Big Pharma is intensely amusing to me. Way to miss the forest for the trees Ms. Teaparty, good job.

    Now down with taxes and government! Who needs roads, plumbing or universal vaccination? Why have a military when everyone can just buy a gun and fight off the British? Postal service? We don’t need no steenkin’ postal service! Or food inspectors! Or FDA! Or CDC!

  48. DW August 8, 2011

    Oh. I assumed her name was Libby, usually a nickname for Elizabeth. She apparently finds it problematic when people write anonymously on blogs, so I would have assumed she was using her real name, or at least real first name.

  49. libby August 8, 2011

    pmoran:

    Do you now see how respectful, thoughtful, detailed explanations on this board are trashed?

  50. DW August 8, 2011

    I’m “trashing” your pseudo-explanation for your behavior: an explanation that would like us to believe that the phrase “the doctors here” wasn’t meant to refer to the doctors here.

  51. WilliamLawrenceUtridge August 8, 2011

    Oh libby, how you handwave. I’ve tried, repeatedly, to give well-thought-out, and in several cases referenced criticisms to your points. You have essentially ignored my substantive points in favour of meaningless nit-picks. To claim no-one on this blog pays any attention to your respectful, thoughtful, detailed explanations ignores the fact that when we do give you such attention, it doesn’t get us anywhere. So instead, I mock. But if you’d like, can you comment on my substantive points?

    a) Why should a blog called “sciencebasedmedicine.org”, of which you are not an editor, focus solely on the issue of the influence of pharmaceutical manufacturers when it is only one way in which science-based medicine strays from its science base?

    b) What do you think of the posts that have been made regarding the influence of “Big Pharma”, such as the The Neurontin Seeding Trial posted last month?

    c) How can you be sure your allergies went away because of homeopathy and not simply natural disappearance?

    d) Why are you accusing Dr. Hall’s prescribing practices of being influenced by “Big Pharma” when she is in fact a retired physician?

    e) Do you have any proof that the doctors on this blog are influenced, funded or in any way impacted by “Big Pharma”?

    f) Why should doctors on a blog about medicine focus on a legal question whose scientific impact would be questionable? This blog is about science based medicine, there’s little science in law. You may notice that most of the posts focus on single journal articles or neat ideas, or general scientific flaws. You’re probably thinking of a legal blog.

  52. libby August 8, 2011

    Obviously I am always completely wrong in every aspect, and have never made one accurate statement or even one accurate phrase on any thread on this board.

    I see now the errors of my ways and realize how consistently right everyone is who opposes me and how consistently wrong I have been in every case and how important it is to understand that the majority is always right.

    I was a hypocrite, an ignorant moron, a ridiculous person, and a Nazi as you have stated. Being Jewish, the Nazi thing was the easiest to change. In any case all of that is now in the past.

    Thank you all for being great teachers and helping me adjust to accuracy and truth over inaccuracy and untruths.

    I wish the best to all of you, both doctors and non-doctors, for helping me escape from my own personal Dark Ages.

    Hopefully I will come back to this site on occasion and share my good fortunes and supportive comments with my new mentors.

    Take care, and good luck to you all. Good bye and So Long.

  53. WilliamLawrenceUtridge August 8, 2011

    Well that’s clearly a straw man made to make us look unreasonable. We’ve agreed that the influence of pharmaceutical companies on doctors, prescribing, research, publication and regulation is a problem. There are a multitude of comments and posts making these points. Our overall criticism of you Libby, is that you refused to recognize our points and criticisms of your pet irrationalities – such as homeopathy and herbal medicine. You’ve never addressed the idea that it may not have been homeopathy that caused your allergies to abate. You’ve never addressed the dangers of herbal medicine, such as an unregulated dose of an unknown compound of uncertain effect with poorly-understood pharmacokinetics. You never engaged with any of these points, ever. That was the problem.

    The overall issue is, it’s not black and white. Drug companies do have an inappropriate (actual or potential) influence on the science and practice of medicine. Sunshine legislation might help (though it may harm as well, law is complicated and everyone adapts to the environment to their own benefit. But if this were a sincere apology/discussion rather than a sarcastic parting shot, you might have acknowledge that you could have been wrong. That drug companies might be a problem, but that herbal medicine and homeopathy are not a solution, but a totally different set of problems. You may have acknowledged the shaky evidence base for these interventions. You may apologized to Dr. Hall for your accusations of being a pharma shill.

    The thing is, reasonable discussion acknowledges the other side might have a point even if you don’t change your mind. Like Thing, you came here with your mind already made up and the desire to show us all the light. You’ve refused to admit that you might be wrong. You’ve slathered all the contributors to this blog with generous pharma shill tar, with nary a bit of evidence. When faced with evidence, you’ve ignored it in favour of pre-decided talking points. When these are addressed, you’ve complained how unfair it was that everyone ganged up on you to point out the flaws in your points.

    Pardon us if we don’t take your arguments seriously when you show no evidence or interest in changing your mind. It’s easy and lazy to affirm, in the face of contrary evidence, the rightness of your opinion. Your sarcastic, insincere, diva-style flouce out the door also isn’t helping your case.

  54. WilliamLawrenceUtridge August 8, 2011

    Should read “…diva-style flounce out the door”, and I’m missing a closing parenthesis.

    WordPress really, really needs a comments preview button.

  55. libby August 8, 2011

    WilliamLawrenceUtridge:

    Sorry but I just had to comment on such a reasoned and fair criticism.

    ¡¡¡Well done!!!

    Homeopathy is pure crap. It can’t work. I must have been dreaming to come up with such hogwash.

    You called me sarcastic, insincere, and using a diva-style flouce. Obviously I can’t hide anything from you.

    I will have to look up flouce, and as soon as I do, that flaw in my character will be corrected ASAP.

    Cheers.

    Thanks again.

  56. weing August 8, 2011

    “Homeopathy is pure crap. It can’t work. I must have been dreaming to come up with such hogwash. ”

    Now you are getting it. If you aren’t being sarcastic. It’s also not science-based.

  57. WilliamLawrenceUtridge August 8, 2011

    Hm…did you notice my second post where I admitted my error and corrected my spelling? Note that both the dictionary and fandom wank definitions apply.

    And based on your comment, I was either really, really convincing in my third-last post or they continue to apply. But I thought you were leaving? Irrespective, glad to have you back. Since you’re making a sincere effort to engage with the community, could you let me know what was the most convincing, that way when I discuss with someone who is as committed as you were to your CAM ideals, I’ll know what to lead with? Do you find that weblinks and references to google books are helpful or distracting?

    And I hate to nit-pick, but technically it was Hahnemann who came up with homoepathy in 1796, not you. Since then of course, it diverged into the multitude of noncompatible doctrines united only by the irrational laws of similars and succussion. I continue to recommend Jay Shelton’s Homeopathy, How it Really Works, Prometheus Books, 2004, ISBN 159102109X.

  58. micheleinmichigan August 8, 2011

    I enjoy a good flounce with my morning coffee. But I must be careful not to burn myself.

  59. libby August 8, 2011

    Thanks micheleinmichigan.

    I really should look up that word.

  60. libby August 8, 2011

    Thanks weing.

    ¡¡¡Well put, well done, well said, and well put!!!

  61. libby August 8, 2011

    WilliamLawrenceUtridge”

    “Should read “…diva-style flounce out the door” ”

    OK thanks. I had put a fair bit of time trying to find “flouce” and nothing came up but the common name for a retired Parisian prostitute on vacation, of course with the “accent aigu” on the “e”. (Go figure).

    This should save some time.

    Cheers.

  62. libby August 8, 2011

    How many people on this board can say “right on” to the following statement:

    “Homeopathy doesn’t rock, it doesn’t even sway.”

    Come on let’s light up this thread.

  63. WilliamLawrenceUtridge August 9, 2011

    DNFTT