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Bleaching away what ails you

I’ve been at this blogging thing for over seven years, over four of which I’ve been honored to be a part of this particular group blog dedicated to promoting science as a basis for rational medical therapies. For three or four years before that seven year period began, I had honed my chops on Usenet in a group known as misc.health.alternative (m.h.a.). So, although I haven’t been at this as long as Steve Novella, I’ve been at it plenty long, which led me to think I had seen just about everything when it comes to pseudoscience and quackery.

As usual whenever I think I’ve seen it all, I was wrong.

I’m referring to something that has been mentioned once before on this blog, namely something called “Miracle Mineral Solution” (MMS). I must admit that after a brief reaction of “WTF?” I basically forgot about it. I shouldn’t have; I should have looked into it in more detail at the time. Fortunately, being a blogger means never having to say you’re sorry (at least about not having caught a form of quackery the first time it made big news), and fortunately MMS was brought to my attention in the context of an area of quackery that I frequently blog about. You’ll see what I mean in a minute.

What happened is that MMS was brought to my attention again by a couple of readers and, not remembering it other than vaguely, I did what I always do when confronted with these situations. I Googled, and I found what I needed to know. Basically, MMS is 28% sodium chlorite in distilled water. In essence, MMS is equivalent to industrial strength bleach. Proponents recommend diluting MMS in either water or a food acid, such as lemon juice, which results in the formation of chlorine dioxide.

MMS was originally sold by a man named Jim Humble, who claims that MMS can be used to successfully treat AIDS, hepatitis A,B and C, malaria, herpes, TB, most cancer and many more of mankind’s worse diseases. He even goes so far as to claim that 5,000,000 people have used MMS and that “hundreds of thousands” of lives have been saved. Unfortunately, it appears that for this function Jim Humble uses more concentrated MMS—a lot more concentrated. More horrifically, Humble bestows his “blessings” on poor people in Third World countries like Haiti, treating them like this:

We gotta give him just enough [industrial bleaching agent] that he don’t get sick but he’s on the edge of getting sick! So we’ve got to keep him just on the very edge and therefore it’s pretty intense for cancer, he needs to take it 4/5 times a day, small amounts instead of a big batch.

In fact, MMS is actually really nasty stuff, with some of its users suffering serious complications. Humble also teaches his disciples his quackery:

When people leave here they really know how to use MMS for all things, skin diseases of all kinds, colon problems, how to regenerate the liver, how to treat brain cancers, how to treat babies and pregnant women, and how to treat animals from mice to elephants. You will be personally taking MMS while here, spraying your skin with powerful solutions of MMS (but won’t hurt you), spraying others’ skin and hair. You will learn to use sprays, baths, IV solutions, MMS gas, soak the feet, and most importantly, the new protocols that in the country of Malawi have cured more than 800 people of HIV plus 40 cancer cases, 50 of feet and leg numbness, 3 heart disease cases, 13 diabetes cases, and many other diseases and problems.

Yes, you read it right. Jim Humble likes to go down to Haiti and the Dominican Republic and subject the poor there to his industrial bleach miracle cure. Unfortunately, he’s not alone in subjecting vulnerable populations to this “miracle cure.”

I learned that because it’s that time of year again.

Regular readers know what I’m talking about. Or, at least, they will know if I tell them I’m referring to a major meeting of the antivaccine movement. They know that sometime around the Memorial Day weekend every year, usually beginning a couple of days before the extended weekend and into the weekend itself, there lands in the Chicago area a quackfest of such unrelenting quackitude that it has to be seen to be believed. Basically, it’s the antivaccine and autism “biomed” movement Woodstock, except that it happens every year. Any and every quack and die-hard antivaccinationist who still believes believes against all evidence that vaccines cause autism is usually there. Anyone who’s anyone in the antivaccine movement was almost certainly there over this Memorial Day weekend (at least that part of the antivaccine movement that aligns itself with Generation Rescue/Age of Autism, anyway).

This quackfest is known as Autism One, and I’ve written about it before.

This year, as the Memorial Day weekend approached, and the Autism One conference started up, I wondered whether or not I should bother with it. I have, after all, been covering it every year for several years. It’s become predictable. Every year, I know that there will be quackery. There will likely be one or more skeptics trying to attend and, if they are recognized, getting kicked out to minimize the chances that a science-based or skeptical viewpoint about what goes on at Autism One will be published or posted anywhere. I didn’t know if anyone had planned on showing up at Autism One this year (although I do hope that someone did). Then it was pointed out to me that MMS would feature prominently at Autism One this year, and so it did. Yes, as one of my readers pointed out, MMS was featured in a talk at Autism One yesterday by a woman named Kerri Rivera, who boasts of 38 Children Recovered in 20 months:

This presentation will outline the approach Kerri has used successfully to help recover 38 children from a diagnosis of Autism. She will explain how MMS (chlorine dioxide) has become the “missing piece” to the autism puzzle for so many of the families that she works with. MMS is available worldwide, and is extremely cost effective, bringing recovery in reach of all families, despite economic or geographic limitations. This presentation seeks to prove that Autism truly is curable.

So let me emphasize this once again. Autism One, whose organizers claim that their conference is “all about the science,” featured a talk by a woman whose preferred form of therapy, besides hyperbaric oxygen, is to subject autistic children to industrial bleach in the deluded belief that she can “recover” autism with it. Rivera runs a clinic in Puerto Vallarta, Mexico that she calls AutismO2 Clinica Hyperbarica. If her website is any indication, Rivera gives autistic children MMS by mouth and by enema. (Yes, she subjects autistic children to bleach enemas.) Here’s the protocol:

Enema:
10-15 drops MMS enabled and 500 mL water
In the colon for 12 – 30 minutes
Use pipette and syringe
Is applied 2 or 3 times per week

Elsewhere, we see this:

Kerri will be discussing recent protocol developments around MMS and Autism, such as loading the dose, the baby bottle, the baking soda mix, enemas, baths, and how to handle a fever.

So let’s see. From my reading, it appears to me that proponents of MMS not only give MMS to autistic children orally, but bathe them in it and gives them enemas with it. Early on, as I was researching this post, I couldn’t find video of the actual Autism One presentation. So I went for the next “best” (if you can call it that) thing. A little Googling led me to this webinar about using MMS to treat autism. It features Jim Humble (the originator of MMS quackery) himself! Predictably, it starts with a “medical disclaimer” (i.e., quack Miranda warning) and then devolves from there:

And here, as part of the same webinar, we see Rivera explaining how to administer the MMS by continually upping the dose:

The latter video is utterly appalling. There really is no better way to describe it. In it, Rivera describes how, as you up the dose, you’ll see the autistic child do more stimming, which makes me wonder whether it’s because the child is feeling ill, leading him to show more autistic behaviors. Rivera, apparently believing in MMS< thinks this increase in stimming behaviors is a good thing, indicating that the treatment is working. She also discusses how the autistic children subjected to this therapy will develop diarrhea, but that that's OK as long as it's "detox diarrhea" (whatever that is supposed to mean). She even talks about these children having a Herxheimer reaction, which is sometimes seen after the initiation of antibacterials for tick borne relapsing fever. It was first describe as a reaction to the treatment of syphilis with penicillin and is also seen after treatment of other diseases caused by spirochetes, such as Lyme disease and leptospirosis. She talks about the “72-2″ protocol, which, if you look at the website, involves giving MMS every two hours for 72 hours. She also recommends “fever therapy” and argues that it’s a good thing that MMS can cause fevers because it’s “waking up the immune system” which realizes that there’s “autism in the house.” She also exults about how she “loves the enemas” so much for autism.

Somehow, I doubt that autistic children love them as much as Rivera does. Maybe Rivera should try giving herself a bleach enema if she thinks it’s so great.

Next, take a gander at the handout that accompanies Rivera’s talk at Autism One. After the predictable Shopenhauer quote about truth “passing through three stages” (whose use is to me one of the surest signs I’m dealing with a quack or crank) her presentation includes a lot of the same nonsense that is touted in the video about bleach being safe and effective. There’s more stuff about “fever therapy” and a lot of stuff about getting rid of parasites, which, if you believe Rivera, MMS does in conjunction with all the other pseudoscience she promotes. She even promotes in essence giving a hot bleach bath (“to tolerance,” as she puts it) along with her fever therapy. Biologists in particular will laugh (or cry) at her misunderstanding of electrochemistry. It’s madness. And what’s her evidence? What do you think it is? It’s nothing more than unconvincing anecdotes.

Finally, let’s look at the actual presentation at Autism One itself. I was able to locate the presentation after it was pointed out to me that the videos from the live stream were being saved and were still accessible online. Here is the video for Rivera’s presentation. Her talk doesn’t start until approximately 4:20:

Watch live streaming video from autismone at livestream.com

And part 2:

Watch live streaming video from autismone at livestream.com

And part 3:

Watch live streaming video from autismone at livestream.com

And part 4:

Watch live streaming video from autismone at livestream.com

From the video, we learn that Kerri Rivera was trained as a DAN! (Defeat Autism Now!) practitioner (even though she is not a doctor) and charged by Bernie Rimland herself to translate DAN! protocols into Spanish and spread them throughout Latin America, like a preacher of woo. She’s also the director of a “clinic” even though she is apparently not a doctor or health care professional. Amusingly, during her presentation, when she talks about the “three stages” of truth in the quote attributed (likely mistakenly) to Schopenhauer, she opines that she’s still waiting for MMS to reach stage 3 (being accepted as self-evident). Apparently it never occurred to her that quackery never makes it to stage 3. It usually gets stuck at stage 1 or stage 2—and rightly so! Thus, MMS will always be stuck at stages 1 and 2 because MMS is rank quackery. But I digress…

One claim that stands out is this:

0.95 volts cannot harm body tissue. Human tissue has a voltage that can withstand greater than 1.28 volts (the oxidation potential of oxygen), thus .95 volts of chlorine dioxide.

This is silly in the extreme. Parasites, viruses, and bacteria, which chlorine dioxide suppresses, are made of the same organic molecules (protein, lipids, carbohydrates, nucleic acids, etc.) that human tissues are made of:

How does disinfection by chlorine dioxide work?

Substances of organic nature in bacterial cells react with chlorine dioxide, causing several cellular processes to be interrupted. Chlorine dioxide reacts directly with amino acids and the RNA in the cell. It is not clear whether chlorine dioxide attacks the cell structure or the acids inside the cell. The production of proteins is prevented. Chlorine dioxide affects the cell membrane by changing membrane proteins and fats and by prevention of inhalation.

When bacteria are eliminated, the cell wall is penetrated by chlorine dioxide. Viruses are eliminated in a different way; chlorine dioxide reacts with peptone, a water-soluble substance that originates from hydrolisis of proteins to amino acids. Chlorine dioxide kills viruses by prevention of protein formation. Chlorine dioxide is more effective against viruses than chlorine or ozone.

And:

Of the oxidizing biocides, chlorine dioxide is the most selective oxidant. Both ozone and chlorine are much more reactive than chlorine dioxide, and they will be consumed by most organic compounds. Chlorine dioxide however, reacts only with reduced sulphur compounds, secondary and tertiary amines, and some other highly reduced and reactive organics. This allows much lower dosages of chlorine dioxide to achieve a more stable residual than either chlorine or ozone. Chlorine dioxide, generated properly (all chlorine dioxide is not created equal), can be effectively used in much higher organic loading than either ozone or chlorine because of its selectivity.

As usual, it’s a matter of the dose making the poison. For example, the EPA sets the oral RfD (reference dose) for chlorine dioxide at 3 x 10-2 mg kg-1 d-1, which, for the average prototypical 70 kg man would be 2.1 mg per day. Rivera cites FDA regulations (21 CFR 173.300) regarding allowable levels of chlorine dioxide in food but neglects to point out what those allowed levels are:

The additive may be used as an antimicrobial agent in water used to wash fruits and vegetables that are not raw agricultural commodities in an amount not to exceed 3 ppm residual chlorine dioxide as determined by Method 4500-ClO2 E, referenced in paragraph (a)(2) of this section, or an equivalent method. Treatment of the fruits and vegetables with chlorine dioxide shall be followed by a potable water rinse or by blanching, cooking, or canning.

In other words, the amount that is permissible to use is low, and the fruit and the FDA requires that the food be rinsed with water afterwards or cooked so that the ClO2 goes away. This is a different situation than taking increasing concentrations of MMS based on adding drops of 28% solution of sodium hypochlorite designed to generate ClO2.

Elswwhere I have seen claims that the target concentration for MMS is 1 ppm and that tap water can have up to 0.8 ppm chlorine dioxide. If that were the case, then way bother with MMS? Just give your kid tap water to cure autism! Of course, it’s not the case. All one has to do is to look at Rivera’s protocol. Given that chlorine dioxide is approved in drinking water up to a maximum concentration of 0.8 ppm (or 0.8 mg/L), if a child took in 1-2 L per day of water (the amount depends on weight), then that would be around 0.8 to 1.6 mg of chlorine dioxide per day. Rivera’s recommended protocol involves working the dose up to 8 to 24 drops per day (1 to 3 drops administered 8 times a day), depending on the child’s weight. Now, a drop of MMS contains roughly 10 mg of sodium chlorite, which generates around 8 mg of chlorine dioxide. This means giving children between 64 and 192 mg of chlorine dioxide per day, depending on the child’s weight. That’s up to 120 times what even an older child could reasonably expect to be exposed to through drinking tap water. And, of course, this neglects the fact that most children don’t drink just tap water; usually they drink other things and don’t drink nearly 1 to 2 liters of tap water in a day. Under real world conditions, the math would work out even worse than what I’ve estimated. Also don’t forget that Rivera recommends giving MMS as an enema. To a child—any child—receiving an enema is likely to be a traumatic experience. For a child with autism, who tends to be more sensitive to various stimuli than neurotypical children, it could be sheer torture, even if there was nothing other than water in the enema.

Particularly amusing to me is the segment where Rivera writes that MMS is not snake oil. Her reasoning? Snake oil doesn’t recover children from autism in 21 months. Of course, she didn’t actually provide any actual evidence that she “recovered” even a single child from autism. She does however, claim that autism is “made up of pathogens,” including viruses, bacteria, parasites, candida, heavy metals, inflammation, and food allergies. Of course, heavy metals, inflammation, and food allergies are not pathogens, but then clearly biology and biochemistry are not Rivera’s strong suits. In any case, she claims that “40 more” children “lost their diagnosis” in the last 21 months. No control group. No solid evidence that these children were actually autistic to begin with, no evidence that MMS had anything to do with their progress, if progress it was.

In retrospect, I should have figured that, if there’s any form of quackery out there, someone, somewhere will be using it on autistic children. MMS is, of course, no different. Two days later, I’m also still amazed that I didn’t know more about MMS. After all, I’ve been looking at quackery of various sorts for over a decade now. I guess that just means there’s always something new to learn and some new woo to hear about—unfortunately. True, many of them are variations on a theme, basically the same old nonsense with a fresh coat of paint slapped on it to make it attractive to the unwary. True, each new generation of quacks appropriates old ideas and tarts them up with the newest science-y sounding terminology of the era in which they operate.

This is also the second time that I’ve seen autism quacks subjecting autistic children to what is, in essence, potentially nasty industrial chemicals. A couple of years ago, disgraced chemistry professor and mercury warrior Boyd Haley pumped autistic children full of an industrial chelator, claiming it was a “supplement.” Ultimately, Haley drew the attention of the FDA, which shut him down. Now, we’re seeing quacks douse autistic children in bleach, pump their colons full of it, and feed it to them until they start to have fevers and diarrhea, believing that the diarrhea and fever are evidence that the bleach is working to reverse autism. The diarrhea and fever might well be working to do something, but reversing autism is not part of that something. Making children sick is. Here’s a typical anecdote:

My 14YO son has autism. I’ve been treating him with a parasite cleanse system for 1.5 years (5 days on, 2 days off). He’s made some remarkable improvements, but every time I try to wean him off the cleanse, the parasite symptoms flare up. He is nonverbal and fairly low-functioning, so I don’t get any feedback from him as to how he is feeling. Last week, I started him on 1 drop of MMS then upped the dose to 1 drop, 2x a day this week. After about 4 days at 2 drops/day, he vomited once and had diarrhea all day. I am assuming it is the MMS. I decided to drop down to 1 drop/day again until he gets beyond this. He tends to have loose stools anyway, which I am guessing is related to this ongoing battle with the parasites. His gut tends to be very sensitive to anything I give him, so I have to go very carefully with anything new like the MMS. I am still giving him the other parasite cleanse (Systemic Formulas VRM 1-4). I would love to hear anyone’s ideas or insight into this. I am working with a homeopath who has done extensive research into parasite cleanses, but she has not researched MMS. I’m looking to get my son beyond these parasites once and for all. My homeopath and her colleagues are autism experts and do consults with parents from around the world. They have found that the children with autism who are considered “tough nuts” tend to also be parasite kids. With their compromised immune systems, it is difficult to eradicate parasites.

There’s only one word for this: appalling. Actually, there’s another word for it, too: Quackery. Pure quackery.

Posted in: Health Fraud, Neuroscience/Mental Health, Vaccines

Leave a Comment (87) ↓

87 thoughts on “Bleaching away what ails you

  1. weing says:

    I would say appalling quackery.

  2. oh my god that is so sad….those poor kids…i want to call child services on those parents, like, right now…can you imagine giving your own child vomiting and diarrhea??? How could someone do that and not be severely bothered by it?

    I bought that stuff once a long time ago. Luckily it’s not expensive. A person recommended it to me when I was ill. If you can believe it, the person who recommended it to me had a PhD in physics…so, well aware of the scientific method. Goes to show you that quackery knows no bounds. I’m still baffled as to why my friend would have been fooled by Jim Humble. She took it for her IBS. All it did was turn her tongue yellowish white. She still has IBS.

    I stopped using it because I realized it was bleach and that Jim Humble had zero educational qualifications to make such recommendations. He also seemed batshit insane from his videos.

    Do you know about this awesome kid from the UK? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhys_Morgan He launched a campaign against the MMS in 2010 and now he’s a health misinformation activist. Go him!

  3. kathy says:

    “He is nonverbal and fairly low-functioning, so I don’t get any feedback from him as to how he is feeling.” This is totally gut-sickening … the poor kid can’t even say, “Mommy, STOP IT, you’re hurting me!” He has to endure in silence whatever horrors get inflicted on him.

    Is this sort of torture allowed? Because that’s what it amounts to. If this was a dog or a cat, the SPCA would be up in arms and the owner and vet alike would find themselves in court.

    This matter should be publicised to the maximum, in newspapers, Internet and TV. I guarantee I won’t be the only one that is nauseated by this home-based Guantanamo Bay, this cruel treatment of a child that cannot escape or even protest.

  4. Simon says:

    Ugh, this is about as terrible as it gets- what’s the point in having regulation if it doesn’t protect the public from this?

    However, I do need to take issue with one small point of your, otherwise excellent, analysis. I do not think it is fair to assume a “drop” is 1ml- as anyone who has ever set up a drip will know, a drop is usually about 50 microlitres, or 1/20th of a ml. This still means a dose of over 0.1g, so still way too much, but is a fairer assumption. This also assumes the bottle has some kind of dropper on the end, or that the “practitioner” is using an eyedropper- if they’re just splashing some in then the concentrations would be impossible to calculate, but would likely be even higher.

  5. tgobbi says:

    “We gotta give him just enough [industrial bleaching agent] that he don’t get sick but he’s on the edge of getting sick! So we’ve got to keep him just on the very edge and therefore it’s pretty intense for cancer, he needs to take it 4/5 times a day, small amounts instead of a big batch.”

    The irony here is that the purveyors of woo are always accusing the medical profession of doing nothing but “cutting, burning and poisoning.” Seems to me that the above is a prime example of the “burning and poisoning” that the mainstream is purportedly guilty of!

  6. irenedelse says:

    This so-called “Miracle” Mineral Solution really makes the rounds! HIV, cancer, autism… In the UK, it’s also been pushed on people with Crohn’s disease, which lead young skeptic activist Rhys Morgan to jump into the fray:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhys_Morgan#Miracle_Mineral_Supplement

    (Apparently, it was called there “Miracle Mineral Supplement”, not “Solution”, perhaps to make it appear even more innocuous… It was still bleach, though. Just the thing to give patients already suffering from inflamed bowels… Ugh.)

  7. bluedevilRA says:

    Appalling indeed. This woman seems to have ticked most of the quackery boxes: enemas, miracle cure, clinic in Mexico, not a doctor yet at the same time playing the “brave maverick” doctor card, three stages of truth quote, etc.

  8. David Gorski says:

    @Simon

    You’re correct—under normal circumstances. However, I don’t think Rivera is using a proper pharmaceutical-type dropper. Look at Rivera’s handout. On a slide with the title “Enemas,” it shows four 60 mL syringes full of a solution, and that solution is quite yellow. However, perhaps I’ll clarify later if I get a chance.

    Quite frankly, what’s equally appalling to me is that, even if the amount of bleach in the MMS enema is too little to do significant harm, the act itself of forcing the child to undergo an enema is traumatic for an autistic child. There is no reason to do it because, at best, it’s not doing any good and, at worst, it’s causing harm. Not only is the bleach itself not particularly good for the intestinal lining, but the act of shooting fluid into the colon can have potential complications, some of them severe, as well.

  9. penglish says:

    I believe that teenager Rhys Morgan brought UK and European regulator attention to bear on MMS with good effect (http://rhysmorgan.co/bleachgate/).

    This is the same teenager who – along with Andy Lewis (http://www.quackometer.net/blog/2011/11/the-burzynski-clinic-threatens-my-family.html) was subsequently threatened by Burzynski’s supporter, Marc Stephens (http://rhysmorgan.co/threats-from-the-burzynski-clinic/)

  10. Jan Willem Nienhuys says:

    Let’s assume that each drop is approximately 1 mL, at the very least we’re looking at a 1:50 dilution, which would be a concentration of 5.6 g/L, meaning that there would be 2.3 g in that 500 mL enema.

    Customarily 20 drops make a gram i.e. 1 milliliter, 1 drop = 50 microliter. That would be drops with a diameter of just over 2 millimeter, or just under 1/10 of an inch. The largest raindrops are about twice as big.

    So there is ‘only’ 2.3 / 20 gram = 0.115 gram NaClO2 in the enema.
    The molecular weight of NaClO2 is 90.5, and the idea is that the acid reacts for instance 5 NaClO2 + 4 HCl → 5 NaCl + 4 ClO2 + 2 H2O, so 452.5 gram of NaClO2 yields 270 gram of NaClO2, in other words the 0.115 gram NaClO2 yields about 0,07 gram of ClO2. Of course that is still about 30 times the maximum dosis (for residual ClO2 absorbed from fruit). On the other hand, the safe limit for chlorinated drinking water is 0,0001 gram ClO2 per liter. So one can also say that the enema contains 700 times the amount of ClO2 that is considered acceptable for drinking water.

    Of course, strongly oxidising stuff like that mostly damages the intestines. It can (my lay opinion) not pass the intestinal wall without destroying it first.

    MMS is made with NaClO2, but some websites will claim it is NaClO3 (sodium chlorate); common household bleach (and swimming pool desinfectant) is NaClO and this is also said to be identical with MMS.

    Additional information is on Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_Mineral_Supplement which you can of course also find via the link to Rhys Morgan.

    The FDA has explictly warned against MMS: http://www.fda.gov/NewsEvents/Newsroom/PressAnnouncements/ucm220747.htm

    Maybe the reason people are so fond of this, is the primitive idea that medicines ought to taste horrible, like the emetics of eighteenth century or cod liver oil .

    It’s really horrible stuff.

  11. rashkae says:

    Appalling quackery? The only words that come to my mind are felony child abuse.

  12. Khym Chanur says:

    What does it take for the Autism One organizers to not include a treatment in their conference? I mean, is all it takes for a treatment to pass that it’s not mainstream?

  13. Steve D. says:

    What I find truly disturbing about individuals who promote such blatantly fraudulent quackery, is their ability to disguise nonsense beliefs in seemingly legitimate scientific terminology. It is obvious to anyone with a chemistry background that this woman has no idea what she is talking about. However, to a lay-person she might seem absolutely legitimate. After all, she is relatively well spoken, if one ignores the utter nonsense which she expounds on.

    Charlatans’ tendency to co-opt scientific terminology to support their ludicrous ideas raises an important issue. Namely, the importance of scientific education in enabling non-experts to discern between legitimate ideas and useless garbage. Although her actions themselves are deplorable, I find it equally disturbing that the public is naive about science to such a degree that she can get away with spreading her beliefs.

  14. cervantes says:

    Sounds like assault and battery to me. I’d call the cops.

  15. mdstudent says:

    I wonder what parasite or combination of parasites these cranks think is causing autism and what kind of conspiracy theory they’ve conjured up to explain why such a supposedly ground breaking discovery is being ignored by microbiologists and neuropathologists world wide.

    Appalling indeed if not outright criminal.

  16. Biomencer says:

    It seems that we are all in agreement about the egregious scam that is being perpetrated and that the harm done to these poor children is verging on criminal. Given that a typical MMS “treatment” contains well over the legal allowable limit of ClO2, leading to, by their own account, nausea and diarrhea (as well as who knows what other symptoms that the poor kids are unable to report), isn’t this literally advocating poisoning? I am not sure what the legal definition of poisoning or what legal arguments can be made to distinguish “alternative treatment” from poison.

    Given that the FDA seems to be aware of this (as linked to by Jan Willem Nienhuys), I am surprised no legal action has been taken. Or if it has, why didn’t it stick?

  17. DavidRLogan says:

    Shocking.

  18. CC says:

    I just about choked when I saw chlorine dioxide being billed as a cure for anything. I’ve worked with that stuff before. In fact, I’ve stood on top of a ClO2 production facility, next to the explosion hatches, taking samples from the exhaust stack. (Wearing a full face gas mask, in case you were wondering. At the exhaust stack it was pretty dilute, so I didn’t need to go with full SCBA to protect all of my skin.) It is, quite literally, just about everything bad you can pin on a chemical. Toxic, flammable, corrosive, explosive. Nasty stuff, but it makes a good bleaching agent. Nobody worked in that building, they only went in as needed for as short a time as they could.

    (In addition to the question of how big is a drop, you stated 2.1 mg exposure for an adult then later 2.1 g being the limit. I assume the latter is the typo.)

  19. chaos4zap says:

    If I understand correctly, this woman practices in Mexico? Ah…Mexico! The last refuge for many a quack medicine that was banned in the US. I do not really know much about our political relations with Mexico, but has anyone even tried to address these clinics that treat Americans? I would imagine the politics get fairly complicated, as was the case with the stem cell therapy tourism. At the very least, if it’s banned from the U.S. for safety and efficacy concerns, it should be 100% illegal to advertise or promote the treatments by any means within the U.S. If ISP’s and other internet resources were threatened the same way they are about allowing piracy of copyrighted materials, it would at least make youtube and the U.S. based anti-vaccine crowd think twice before promoting these things so openly. I guess Lars from Metallica having his solid gold toilet is more of a concern then matters that could potentially be life and death.

  20. LMA says:

    I’ll bet the woman babbling about a “parasite disease” is convinced her autistic child has “Morgolleon’s.”

  21. Donna B says:

    Wait, I thought the chemicals in vaccines caused autism? Now we’re treating autism WITH chemicals?? Oh, I forgot, “like treats like.” Ugh, I’m exasperated trying to keep their illogical hypocrisy straight.

  22. CC says:

    “like cures like” is the homeopathy thing, isn’t it? If they were using homeopathic ClO2 I wouldn’t worry so much, because then there wouldn’t actually be any ClO2 in it!

  23. MeghanH says:

    Whoa Whoa Whoa, you wake your kid up every 2 hours during the night for 3 nights straight, and then the next couple days they sleep through the night? Well it must be the bleach then! Hallelujah!

    In all seriousness this is the most horrifying thing I have read in a very very very long time. I’ve read your blog for a while, since my dad got diagnosed with PSP in summer 2010 and I became keenly aware of the amounts of “miracle cures” and “miracle preventatives” there are for degenerative disorders (Just cook his breakfast in coconut oil and his brain will stop melting dontcha know). Anyways this is the worst, the absolute worst, thing I have ever read on here, and I’ve read almost all your posts for the last two years. My heart brakes for those poor children. I’ve worked with several ASD kids in my line of work and the thought of forcing them to undergo enemas makes me sick to my stomach. Many of the ASD kids I’ve worked with are very touch sensitive and the amount of heavy pressure touching i imagine would be required to perform an enema would be pure torture, not to mention the actual procedure itself.

  24. lizditz says:

    Today at The Thinking Person’s Guide to Autism:

    http://thinkingautismguide.blogspot.com/2012/06/dangerous-interventions-mms-and-autism.html

    In addition to a round condemnation of Humble and his minions, the article points out:


    AutismOne, you should immediately take steps to publicly renounce your association with these people, particularly Kerri Rivera, and the use of MMS as a therapy for autism. Not to do so is tacit endorsement of child abuse and experimentation on children that no society should tolerate. You have allowed a cult that exists solely to shill bleach solution to vulnerable people to hawk their wares and exploit you and your conference attendees for their own ends. Do the right thing, do it publicly, and do it now.

    I don’t have much hope that AutismOne will do the right thing.

  25. qwerty says:

    I realize the trail has probably gone cold on this comment thread, but I just got around to I watching the second video (all of it) in which Rivera is being interviewed about her MMS protocols. My jaw was on the table. I got chills as I listended to her carefully describe how she fills syringes from a large bowl of diluted bleach and then asks her son to come to her and lay face down so she can force an enema. HORRIFIC! Now I must rant.

    If you can look past the appauling brutality, ignorance and desperation evident this video, it seems to me that there are also some real head-scratchers — concepts that should give pause even to the likes of the antivaxers that listened to her keynote at AutismOne. Here are a few:

    1. Rivera seems to be quite a big fan of “fever therapy”, going so far as to say “fever wakes up the immune system so that it realizes, hey we have autism in the house, we have to do something about this”. Wait, I thought the immune system caused autism, now I’m supposed to believe that “waking it up” can cure autism. Sad face.

    2. Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t a major concern voiced by many antivax parents that vaccines damage the gut, causing a leaky gut, which in turn leads to neurological damage. Ummm, but drinking dilute bleach to the point of fever and vomiting and washing your colon with it is somehow supposed to be good for the epithelial lining of the gut?

    3. Rivera clearly feels that pathogens = autism. Yet, when asked by her interviewer which viruses are the most difficult to MMS to clear, she struggled to come up with specifics (basically admitting that her clinic never tests whether MMS actually clears anything…they just base everything on symptoms). If her idea that pathogens = autism was correct, then wouldn’t you expect autism prevalence to be highest in developing countries where infections of all types are much higher? Wait, but that would conflict with the antivaxers feeling that autism is highest in the US and europe where toxins, vaccines and big pharma are ruining a generation of children.

  26. jbvtme says:

    as i understand her, rivera is engaged 24/7 in helping mothers and their children to cope with autism. from various testimonials from many sources she has had some impressive results. my questions are these: how many of you have ever tried to help a stranger with an illness? what business is it of yours if two consenting adults confer with one another over the health of their child? how many of you would like me to tell you that vaccinations are poison and force you to forgo them for your child? that’s what i thought.

  27. Chris says:

    jbvtme, how exactly is the child who is being forced to consume bleach both orally and rectally a “consenting adult”? Why are you concerned over the parents, and not the children?

    You make absolutely no sense.

  28. jbvtme says:

    would you want me to tell you how to raise your child? who knows a child better than it’s parents? conversely, did your child consent to its vaccination?

  29. That’s because it’s absolutely idiotic to say that vaccines are a poison, just as it is absolutely idiotic to think bleach is going to cure autism.

  30. jbvtme says:

    and it’s idiotic for you to tell me how to raise my child.

  31. jbvtme says:

    We must ask: why were faulty tires quickly recalled when they were dangerous while infant vaccines are not when there are so many claims they appear to cause autism and brain damage? If they are safe, use them. If they are not, stop using them. And if there is serious doubt about their safety, err on the side of caution. We should not allow the present autism epidemic to continue. The bottom line is: Decisions by federal or state agencies for either vaccines or the use of drugs such as Ritalin® should be recommended and suggested but not compulsory or mandatory.
    - Our Toxic World: A Wake Up Call by Doris J. Rapp, M.D.

    Learn more: http://www.naturalnews.com/027178_autism_vaccines.html#ixzz1xKPHnAG9

  32. daedalus2u says:

    jbvtme, no, it is not idiotic to tell parents not to abuse their children, it is the duty of all adults to ensure that children are not abused by anyone, even by their parents.

    Bleach enemas and forcing children to drink bleach is child abuse. If you are doing that to your child, you should lose custody of that child and be put in prison for child abuse.

    But no wonder, if you get your information from Donald Trump and Fox News. Even Fox News reports that most physicians disagree and that there has been no decline since mercury was removed from vaccines.

  33. Chris says:

    Actually, there are some people who have to be told how to raise their children. Like those who starve their children (locally there have been a couple who starved a toddler because the mother thought the child would get fat). There is a website listing death of children from denial of healthcare: Children’s Healthcare Is a Legal Duty.

    Not vaccinating is not immediately going to harm a child, but giving them various chemicals orally and rectally can. It is amazing that you and your friends do all sorts of hand wringing over the teeny tiny bits of ingredients in vaccines, yet blithely feed children bleach, oral chelators, and other various nostrums without skipping a bit.

  34. Does anyone else experience a visceral reaction to rank stupidity?

    I’m not kidding. When I read jbvtme’s post, my body swayed side-to-side, I felt a pressure in my gut and a spasm in my lower esophagus. I then felt a little light-headed, and then what seemed like a quick rise in temperature and blood pressure. Lastly, I get left with a feeling of either deep sadness, because I simply cannot understand how people can be so mislead and so difficultly *wrong* as to post and write these types of things.

  35. jbvtme says:

    vaccinations are child abuse. now what do we do?

  36. jbvtme says:

    skeptical…do you need to adjust your meds?

  37. Ah, you’re obviously a troll. Have a good day.

  38. Chris says:

    jbvtme, making children drink bleach and giving them enemas for no reason is real child abuse. It is as bad as beating them, starving them or locking them in a basement.

    You have yet to make a cogent statement on why it is a good thing to do to children.

  39. jbvtme says:

    and you have yet to make a cogent statement as to why it is bad for the child. by the way MMS is not bleach. also, when i was a teen and had my wisdom teeth extracted, my dentist put a cotton ball in my mouth to cauterize the site. it was laced with clorox bleach. what case studies or specific instances of MMS causing the health problems of a child are you personally acquainted with?

  40. jbvtme says:

    that’s funny skeptical…i thought you and the rest of your alter egos were the trolls. bought and paid for by uncle pharma.

  41. Chris says:

    Here you go: FDA Warns Consumers of Serious Harm from Drinking Miracle Mineral Solution (MMS) – Product contains industrial strength bleach:

    The FDA has received several reports of health injuries from consumers using this product, including severe nausea, vomiting, and life-threatening low blood pressure from dehydration.

    and

    The product instructs consumers to mix the 28 percent sodium chlorite solution with an acid such as citrus juice. This mixture produces chlorine dioxide, a potent bleach used for stripping textiles and industrial water treatment. High oral doses of this bleach, such as those recommended in the labeling, can cause nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, and symptoms of severe dehydration.

    Seriously, really should not be feeding children bleach, nor should be forcing enemas on them even with water!

    And I see you have trotted out the old tired and boring Pharma Shill Gambit.

  42. jbvtme says:

    nausea, diarrhea and dehydration. sounds like someone who has just finished running a marathon. what does the FDA say about long distance running. what about parents who let their children run track in high school? i have used MMS and it does cause these symptoms. but i know what ails me is much more severe. and the symptoms are signs that the body is detoxing. what are the symptoms of autism the parents are trying to cure with this protocol? anyway, it’s none of the fda’s business or yours what i put in my body or the body of my child.

    over and out

  43. Chris says:

    Then, jbvtme, then you are okay dokay with manufacturers selling Elixer Sulfanilamide.

    We are assuming you are an adult, so perhaps you can put what you want in your body. It is quite clear you cannot understand basic concepts. But forcing children to drink bleach, and giving them enemas is still child abuse.

    And yes, forced exercising is a form of child abuse. It is right up there with forcing enemas on children.

  44. LMAO says:

    I’m guessing @jbvtme is the same rational mind behind this comment at another website:

    jbvtme
    May 12, 2012 at 7:25 am
    I believe it was Einstein who said nuclear energy will eventually kill us. How did it happen? The folks who designed and executed the technology aren’t human. Look at a picture of John D Rockefeller. Tell me he’s not a lizard. The internet is filled with accounts of shape shifting amphibians like the Clintons, Bushs and Obamas. Their plan is to depopulate the planet using radiation poisoning. Then they move back under ground for 100,000 years where they came from. FYI, the earth is populated from the core to the surface. Check out Dulce, New Mexico.

    And probably this comment on a YouTube segment about an autistic child:

    jbvtme
    4 months ago
    have her start ionic foot baths. chlorella and cilantro. dr. klinghardt in seattle

    Not worth engaging.

  45. Chris says:

    Well, he was amusing for a few minutes. Definitely a nut.

  46. LMAO says:

    Clarification: fast typing makes bad html tags… the “not worth engaging” line is mine (not intended to be quoted)

  47. Chris says:

    I had to look up Klinghardt:
    http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2010/03/26/your-friday-dose-of-woo-2/

    I also noticed that the oral protocol involves giving it every two hours for about three days. I can’t see how any child would want to be shook awake to drink a bleach solution.

  48. LMAO, thank you for finding his lizard people posts. Clearly he’s pathologically deluded. Wow. That’s just insane.

    jnvtbme: beep boop boop beep rawr haas schnizel zoik boop!

  49. Dang, he disappeared. I was hoping to hear more about the lizard people who force children to get poison infections.

    This is a lesson to us all that when we spend time arguing with nuts like this guy and rustichealthy, we need to keep in mind that we may be trying to reason with a whacko who believes world leaders are lizard people aliens.

  50. Chris says:

    Or we can view dealing with them as entertainment, plus a way to make fence sitters realize what an empty uneducated clueless argument looks like.

  51. mousethatroared says:

    This is outside my field, but it would be nice if CPS social workers, speech paths, special ed teachers and peditricians had a list of dangerous therapies to watch out for.

  52. jbvtme says:

    i absolutely agree mtr. how about the dangers of chemotherapy. this from the cancer institute’s website…”managing chemotherapy side effects”: anemia, bleeding problems, constipation, diarrhea, fatigue, hair loss, memory changes, mouth and throat changes, nausea, nerve changes, pain, sexual and fertility changes, swelling, urination changes…heck this protocol makes MMS look like a hot fudge sunday. why is chemotherapy a valid therapy and MMS is not. and please stick to the question and spare me the insults, gentlemen. assaulting character during a discussion merely shows that are you in a battle of wits unarmed.

  53. Because people who believe in “lizard people” are absolutely nuts and are not rational, reasonable people. You post the side effects of chemotherapy, ask yourself which patient population receives chemotherapy, and what the “side effect” of *not* receiving chemotherapy is.

    …. and I’d love to see any proof that MMS is scientifically proven to treat anything. :)

    …. and I’d love to read over some of your lizard people conspiracy theory links. This is my afternoon for reading, so… Please give me some material.

  54. lizditz says:

    #mousethatroared

    it would be nice if CPS social workers, speech paths, special ed teachers and peditricians had a list of dangerous therapies to watch out for.

    It is going to be a challenge on several fronts.

    The first is parents hiding the nature of what they are doing to their children. Here’s advice from a mother posting at “Thinking Mom’s Revolution” (the mother is Alison MacNeil, posting under the nom de plume of Mama Mac):

    1. Always listen to your Mama Gut! If we had in the first place, we might not be in this mess. Call it your mother’s instinct or intuition or the quiet voice in your head. Don’t work with providers who don’t value your maternal instincts about your child.

    (emphasis added):

    7. Do not discuss biomed or homeopathy or any other alternative medical care you are doing with your child, at school. Period.

    The quote above is illustrated with this iconic poster: Loose Links Sink Ships.

    The second is that many teachers, occupational therapists (OTs) and others aren’t exactly science-based themselves, as this recent comment at The Thinking Person’s Guide to Autism reveals:

    Part of the problem, as I see it, comes from within the OT profession. Many of my professors and fellow students were prone to “woo” (Reiki, acupuncture, infrared sauna therapy, even a few anti-vaxers). The OT peer-reviewed research journal recently published a paper claiming Qui-Gong massage can treat aspects of autism and CP through energy flow (and the primary research is the president of this organization http://www.qsti.org). This breeds mistrust and gives MDs reason to be skeptical. In addition, most OTs use an outdated understanding of the brain to explain SI therapy. As the AAP paper points out, Jean Ayres’s teachings (on which “classic SI” is still based) are inconsistent with current neuroscience.

    As far as the list of “therapies” go, it’s constantly shifting and evolving. I think Trine Tsouderos hit most of the major ones in Risky alternative autism treatments have little basis in science.

    The bleach treatment got traction (in the US) in 2011. Most of the “sales” of these alternative therapies take place on closed discussion boards.

  55. lizditz says:

    It took me a while to chase down, but Dr. Gorski also covered the range of “therapies” parents engaged in the biomedical approach to autism at this blog on September 28, 2009 in The Price of Anti-vaccination Fanaticism: Case Histories.

    Dr. Gorski lists some of the treatments these children are subjected to, including long courses of anti-virals and anti-fungal medication, chelation of various forms, stringent dietary regimes, and more.

  56. daedalus2u says:

    Patients who are given chemotherapy have previously been diagnosed with cancers which are known to be treatable by the chemotherapy agents being given. The medications used for chemotherapy have been tested in animals and in clinical trials on patients and are treating something known to be lethal by known mechanisms.

    What have people being given Sodium Chlorite been diagnosed with? What diagnostic tests will be used to determine when they have had “enough”? When the parent feels guilty, shamed and terrible for causing their child such trauma and pain? There is no instrumental endpoint. There have been no clinical trials with measured trial outcomes. There are no diagnostic tests to tell what conditions MMS can be used for, no tests to tell when it has been effective and no tests to tell when it doesn’t work or when it hasn’t worked.

  57. mousethatroared says:

    @jbvtme – If you are a parent and you do not understand the difference between a child recieving the standard of care chemotherapy for cancer under the supervision of a doctor and a parent giving a child diluted bleach orally or thru an enema at home, based on the recommendation of a woman with no medical background whatsoever, then you are a danger to your child.

    I hope that you will seek help from a competent social worker. If that does not happen, I hope that other people in your community will watch out for your child and report any of your behavior that endangers your child to CPS.

    If you are a parent, your number one responsibility is to act in your child’s best interest, not your own. Testing dangerous remedies on a child based on unsubstantiated rumors is not only NOT in the child’s best interest. It is abuse.

    You need to understand that a child is not your property, parenting is not a right. It is a priviledge and a responsibility. If you really are a parent. Get your act together and get some counseling.

  58. BillyJoe says:

    Testimonials are not evidence (or an extremely weak form of evidence).
    This is why we do clinical trials.

    If you look on the internet, there are literally thousands of presumed treatments. For each of them, there are people who think it worked for them. If you think about how these treatments are supposed to work, most of them are mutually exclusive – they can’t all be right. It takes a clincal trial to sort out which work and which don’t.

  59. Chris says:

    mousethatroared, I sincerely believe that jbvtme is not a parent, but part of a bus tour to SBM from Htrae.

  60. (I had to Google what Htrae is, and after seeing it is “bizarre world” I see that it is Earth backwards!)

    What chance does a child have of growing up normal if their parent is a psychopath who gives them bleach enemas and tells them that political figures are lizard people?

  61. mousethatroared says:

    @Chris, I sincerely hope you are correct. But, I felt it needed to be said, regardless.

  62. Chris says:

    SkepticalHealth, it is a remnant from reading Superman comics as a kid. I had to stop when they started to cost more than twenty five cents (and my mother threw them out!). Bizarro World is where everything is opposite of Earth. And for the second part of your comment, have you heard of Jake Crosby?

    I understand mousethatroared. There is an actual parent on another blog who thinks it okay to give MMS to children every two hours or as an enema just because the FDA says it is bad. Now that is fractured logic.

  63. pmoran says:

    So tell me, Peter. How should I respond to practitioners who subject autistic children to bleach enemas to try to rid them of “parasites” causing their autism? Is it “intolerant” to point out that this is rank quackery that can harm children? Clearly, the parents seem to think that they are helping their children. Clearly, the parents get a “benefit” out of it in that they see hope of “recovering” their autistic children.

    Is it “oppressive” and “disrespectful of genuine medical needs”? How do you describe such practitioners in a way that will convince parents that their nostrums are useless without being perceived as “intolerant” and “oppressive”? Be specific. I want to know exactly what you would say. Pretend you are writing a letter to a parent who’s been giving her child bleach and bleach enemas in an attempt to treat autism, and show us your wisdom. What would you say that would convince her?

    Delighted to help — .:-)

    — no, I am not sure why you would assume that I would not say much the same things as you would . The only difference is that I might apply more emphasis to safety aspects.

    I would assume at the very beginning that whatever I say desperate parents of severely autistic would want to try this treatment and it is unlikely that any single article will dissuade them from it . So I would, like you, say frankly that there is no earthly reason to expect this treatment to be helpful other than as through extra non-specific attention and distraction for the child (or whatever else happens with autistics, – it is not my field) , but I would also say up front that if you do decide to use it against all advice understand that it is extremely dangerous to expose any part of the human body to this product unless very, very dilute and that some children have been hospitalised through using too much. I would also mention that enemas regularly cause serious anal or rectal damage even when given by hospital nursing staff.

    I would at the very beginning advise it definitely NOT to be used in concentrations above X (I would work out what looks safe).

    (BTW there is an error in your calculations — one drop is .05 ml, I thought, not 1 ml.)

  64. mousethatroared says:

    @lizdtz – I agree, yes one would assume that people would try to hide these kinds of activities. Also, changing trends could make compiling a list and keeping it current in the minds of personal hard.

    I guess we are coming from different perspectives on your point two. You think because an OT uses some sensory therapy like sand tables or swings, a nurse uses reiki, or that a teacher believes in “learning styles” or self esteam building exercises, that means they are incapable of recognizing that giving bleach enemas or drinks to a child is abuse and falls within their reporting responsibilities?

    Most normal people that I’ve met have some basic concept of balancing risk/benefit.

  65. jbvtme says:

    Lazarou J, Pomeranz BH, Corey PN. Incidence of adverse drug reactions in hospitalized patients: a meta-analysis of prospective studies. JAMA . 1998 Apr 15;279(15):1200-5. according to this author there have been over a million deaths attributed to adverse reactions to prescription drugs over a ten year period. how many deaths has MMS caused? btw MMS is not bleach.

  66. jbvtme says:

    “In a New England Journal of Medicine study, an alarming one in four patients suffered observable side effects from the more than 3.34 billion prescription drugs filled in 2002.(41) One of the doctors who produced the study was interviewed by Reuters and commented, “With these 10-minute appointments, it’s hard for the doctor to get into whether the symptoms are bothering the patients.”(42) William Tierney, who editorialized on the New England Journal study, said “… given the increasing number of powerful drugs available to care for the aging population, the problem will only get worse.” The drugs with the worst record of side effects were selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors ( SSRIs), nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs (NSAIDs), and calcium-channel blockers. Reuters also reported that prior research has suggested that nearly 5% of hospital admissions (over 1 million per year) are the result of drug side effects. But most of the cases are not documented as such. The study found that one of the reasons for this failure is that in nearly two-thirds of the cases, doctors could not diagnose drug side effects or the side effects persisted because the doctor failed to heed the warning signs.” Sounds like you scientific folks need to get your own house in order.

  67. Scott says:

    What relevance does any of that have to MMS? None. Pure [i]tu quoque.[/i]

    Note in particular that the risks of pharmaceuticals actually come with some BENEFITS, as well. And that SBM does call out inappropriate use of drugs – see the recent post on how to do better with medication and the elderly as just one example.

  68. fhurst says:

    Over at Autism Wars, discussion on MMS. They are trying to point to the following as evidence that chlorine dioxide is totally safe. Lots of arguing over dosage versus safe levels as well.

    Controlled Clinical Evaluations
    of Chlorine Dioxide, Chlorite
    and Chlorate in Man
    by Judith R. Lubbers,* Sudha Chauan,* and Joseph
    R. Bianchine*

    http://www.autismwars.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/Controlled-Clinical-Evaluations-of-Clo2-in-Man.pdf

  69. @jvbtme, you literally believe in lizard people. Everything you write is to be completely ignored.

  70. jbvtme says:

    A report by a watchdog group has concluded that prescribed medicines are “one of the most significant perils to human health resulting from human activity.” The group based their conclusion on their analysis of the US Food and Drug Administration’s database of serious adverse events.

    The report was published on 31 May in QuarterWatch, a publication of the Institute for Safe Medication Practices, a non-profit organisation dedicated to “medication error prevention and safe medication use” based in Horsham, Pennsylvania.1 It calculated that in 2011 prescription drugs were associated with two to four million people in the US experiencing “serious, disabling, or fatal injuries,” including 128 000 deaths.

    According to the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, 48% of the …

    http://www.bmj.com/content/344/bmj.e3989

    gentlemen…new quote: “MMS it’s like a hot fudge sunday”. (c)

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  72. Javeux says:

    I find some of the discussion in the comments about uneducated, irrational and irresponsible parents like jbvtme administering outright insane treatments to their children and hiding them from authority quite distressing. I found the idea that anybody would rely on a homoeopath for “expertise” in microbiology, and that legally the homoeopath is able to give this advice, horrifying beyond description. It really brings home the limitations of the law in protecting children.

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