179 thoughts on “Chiropractic Strokes Again! A Landmark Lawsuit in Canada

  1. Joe says:

    Calli wrote “My husband sees chiropractors fairly frequently for relief of neck …”

    Did you miss the premise for this post- chiropractic treatment for neck complaints can leave a person “locked in” or, even, seriously dead?

    Of course, quacks point out that every procedure carries a risk. However, the chiro procedure that incapacitates (and kills) has no benefit beyond what can be achieved with safer treatment. That is, the risk of chiro is unjustified.

  2. quackdoctor says:

    Well actually chiropractic of certain types is very scientific. In fact even Dr Mayo of the Mayo Clinic took his wife to Dr BJ Palmer when he could not cure her of a tumor in her leg. Dr Palmer applied the specific science of upper cervical chiropractic thus stopping the nerve interference and the tumor was cured.

    There are thousands of pages of research establishing chiropractic methods. More advanced research than in medicine. Dr Hall forgets to mention this convienently. She forgets of all the children that have been saved from sids death and the aids patients that have better lives today. She should know full well that chiropractic works and does.

    And she also tries to speak as an authority but could not even tell you what the normal atlas plane angle is. She does not know how to read a nervoscope or locate a subluxation of C1.

    What about the fact that I saw a child that was crippled for all it’s life and spastic completely restored with one adjustment. Everyone in the room cried including the MD. And this happens a lot in chiropractic. So I just do not know why people are trying to stop sick kids from walking. I urge everyone no matter what you have heard that if you or your child is sick get to an upper cervical chiropractor ASAP. Have the pressure on the spinal cord removed and allow you and your children to have total health.

  3. Harriet Hall says:

    quackdoctor is at it again! I would think this was a parody if I didn’t know there are really people who believe such things.

    “the specific science of upper cervical chiropractic” – come on! Didn’t you read my post on Science and Chiropractic? You are trying to re-define the word “science” to suit your own purposes.

    “More advanced research than in medicine” – HA!
    “children saved from SIDS” – HA!
    “AIDS patients that have better lives” – HA!
    “a child crippled all its life restored with one adjustment” -HA!
    “people trying to stop sick kids from walking” -HA!
    “removing pressure.. to have total health” -HA!

    Lots of anecdotes and accusations. No credible evidence. Any quack can provide similar testimonials.

    Yes, there are thousands of pages of research about chiropractic methods. Much of it is poor science and credulous case reports. The most credible “chiropractic” method is spinal manipulation, which is not limited to chiropractic. The credible evidence for spinal manipulation is only for certain types of musculoskeletal back pain. There is so little evidence for upper cervical methods that the great majority of chiropractors have not seen fit to learn them.

    I may not be an authority, but I’m pretty sure that a nervoscope is not a reliable diagnostic tool and that no one has ever demonstrated the existence of the chiropractic subluxation. I can give you the names of several chiropractors who could be considered authorities and who agree with me. But who cares about authorities? We don’t accept the word of any authority; we look at the evidence and make up our own minds.

    Anyway, quackdoctor’s defense of chiropractic is irrelevant to the subject of the blog post, which did not question chiropractic as a whole, but only specific bad practices.

    Quackdoctor can SAY anything, but that doesn’t make them true. Unsupported claims like these only make him look very foolish.

  4. Fifi says:

    To get back to the human beings behind this tragedy, here are some video interviews with David and Sandi Nette.

  5. quackdoctor says:

    Oh my claims are supported. All of the research indicates it. This research is conclusive and dates back for decades. And it is quality research by any standard. And additionally there has never been a recorded stroke using the HIO atlas specific. There is no twisting or turning. You see the atlas is a master switch that controls the electrical flow from the brain to the body. When it is out of alignment it acts as a dimmer switch turning the energy down. The adjustment returns the switch to full volume and the lights are fully brightened.

    It is critical that all parts of the body have electrical flow. It is what keeps us healthy. The brain is the master generator and the nerves are the wires going to all the organs and glands of the body. The body is amazing. One time I saw a kid with only two chambers to his heart. An atlas adjustment was given and BAM within 3 weeks the doctors were amazed. He grew another two chambers. The unsubluxated body is amazing. If people are kept subluxation free for generations even genetic disorders will dissappear. Hemophilia, Tay sachs, cystic fibrosis and more. You have to get the big picture.

    Now of course Harriet says she has friends that have written books and such. Yeah right…Books against chiropractic. They never wrote a book about chiropractic technique or science. Not about x ray or adjusting. So they are not experts at all. Just story writers. It is easy to knock something that you may have no talent in. Please Oh I beg you all please. If you or your child is sick get to a upper cervical chiropractor NOW. If you do not and you child dies you will always have the guilt to deal with.

  6. Harriet Hall says:

    Quackdoctor is a true believer. His claims are ever more preposterous, and he only tells us his claims are supported by research – he doesn’t cite studies. Just more unsupported testimonials. His language isn’t even that of science (brain is master generator, nerves are like wires, etc – no it’s not like that, it’s much more complex).

    How could anyone believe a child grew another 2 chambers in his heart? Amazing stories like these always dwindle to nothing when you try to track down the evidence. What doctors were amazed? What are their names? What was the child’s name? Where are the angiograms to show the heart chambers before and after? Where was this written up in the medical literature? It should have been on front pages all over the world; I don’t remember seeing it.

    This is a science-based medicine blog; take your belief-based medicine elsewhere.

  7. quackdoctor says:

    Well Harriet you are entitled to your opinion that is true. But let me tell you one more story. It is very very sad. There was this child who was completely fine then one day he started to have all kinds of strange behavior. He was seeing things and hearing things. He said he could smell colors and see sounds. It was a real mess. He was taken to the ER and the doctors could ony find that he was delusional, hyper reflexic and had pupilary dilation. His BP was somewhat elevated. But the doctors released him. Well his parents took him directly to an upper cervical chiropractor who gave him a specific adjustment. Before the adjustment the chiropractor x rayed him with a lazer aligned machine. The kid was so crazy he kept laughing at the lazer and saying it “looked all cool”.

    Well any way the adjustment was rendered and the kid was allowed to rest. Very shortly the child was fully recovered. Later in the week the parents confronted the MDs that treated the boy in the ER and wanted to know why they did not find the subluxation. Their only excuse for their ignorance was some ridiculas story that they felt that someone had put LSD in the childs chocolate milk at school and the adjustment had nothing to do with the recovery. I mean really LSD in chocolate milk? Ha! What a pathetic excuse for the failures of medicine and the success of chiropractic.

  8. Harriet Hall says:


    Aha! You are the troll from the Quackwatch healthfraud list! You called yourself Dave Wulster there. It was the reference to LSD and chocolate milk that gave you away – not very smart of you!

    You said some truly despicable things there and then admitted you had lied to us and made up stuff just so you could understand our thinking to better fight us. Dr. Barrett banned you from that list.

    Now you’re over here making up lies like chiropractic making hearts grow new chambers and curing delusions, synesthesia, and neurologic signs.

    Stunts like that don’t do anything to raise the prestige of chiropractic. And now that you have admitted you lied, how can you expect us to take anything you say seriously?

  9. weing says:

    You’re kidding. You mean this guy is for real? He’s not being sarcastic? Unbelievable.

  10. quackdoctor says:

    Oh no I an not Dave Wulster. I did see the posts he made. I do subscribe to the HF list but I have never posted. I have to admit the whole thing with the chcolate milk was very funny. But this is a different chocolate milk story. You see as stated on the HF list it is very common for people to put LSD in drinks. Especially alt med people. And milk seems to be common. So no I am not Dave Wulster. Dave Wulster seems very medical. I believe in chiropractic.

    Having read all of Wulster’s posts I think he was just tired of people harping on being scientific when their own field does not hold to the same standard. I think Dave stopped being friendly to HF list when he figured out that the people on it would defend medicine almost no matter what. Like when there is clear evidence that psychiatry is abusing kids. After all around 8 million kids are on psychtropic meds. And I think Dave just shakes his head and does not understand how your profession can be so fraternal.

    I mean you should recall that Dave Wulster freely admitted that chiropractic has caused strokes. He also usually quite strongly defended medicine and MDs. However I think Dave just seees too much narrow thinking on HF. I believe he sees both the chiros and you guys as being close minded in your own way.

    But I do have one thing in common with Dr Wulster. And that is that I see now that you, Barrett and others no matter what you say are clear enemies to all chiropractic practice. To any advancement what so ever in the field. Because the bottom line is that you have not spent 10 seconds in a legitamite chiropractic office observing what is going on. You do not know the first thing about biomechanics and how people respond real time in a clinical setting. You will say that you know Dr homohalla or Dr winywaka and they have written books and are authorities. On what? Biomechanics? Technique? Diagnosis? Radiology? Did you ever consider that they might not be perceptive clinicians? Or talanted?

  11. Harriet Hall says:


    I have no way of knowing whether you’re lying about not being Dave Wulster.

    How many times do I have to say I am not an enemy of all chiropractic practice? I support chiropractors who limit themselves to short-term treatment of musculoskeletal conditions, who try to stick to evidence-based practices, and who eschew subluxation theory and quackery. I have been criticized by medical colleagues and by ex-chiropractors for NOT advocating that all chiropractors be put out of business.

    I accept anything based on good evidence. Where is the evidence to support your extravagant claims? This is not the place to discuss all of them, but perhaps as a simple example you could impress us with your credibility by presenting evidence to support your story about the child who grew new heart chambers.

  12. quackdoctor says:

    Well I will try and get the documentation for you. But let me relate another story. Once I was practicing in the country. It was Amish country. There was this young boy and girl. They were around 18. They had been married that day. Well up to mmy office pulls a horse and buggy. It is being driven by a man. He comes in and says there is a “problem”. He looks very upset. I ask him what it is and he replies in Amish/English. “Dr…They stuck together”…”It is der wedding night”.

    So I go out to the black buggy with the man and in the buggy are the young couple with the boy on top of the girl. There is a quilt over them. I lift the quilt only to see that he is penetrating her. Actually he is stuck inside of her. He says”Doctor it won’t let loose”. They are both in obvious pain. The girl is moning like hell and the boy is growning. I try and pry them apart but she is clamped down hard. The poor girl was so embarrased that she would not even look at me.

    So anyway we manage to get them into the office and x ray them both despite their obvious severe pain. Sometimes it even appeared that the girl was in some way stimulated by this as with the waves of pain her eyes would roll back in her head. But it could have just been the pain. Anyway after a few x ray calculations I found that it was the girl that was subluxated hence the vaginal clamping. So I got her on the table on her side with the boy still in her. I gave a quick thrust to the transverse process of her atlas. You could immedietly see her whole body relax. Her father Mr Yoder grabbed her from behind and I held the boy. And I said “ready pull”. And they both yelled in pain but came apart.

    Mr Yoder looked at his daughter and told her to cover herself in an angry tone. He looked at his son in law and smiled and gave him a fraternal slap on the shoulder. I got him a quilt to cover himself and the family got into the buggy and left. The next year the couple named their new baby boy after me. And incidently the father of the couple Mr Yoder started bring in his wife for treatments with the rational that if a young girl could be loosened by chiropractic an older woman could be tightened. At least that is how Mr Yoder reasoned. And who was I to argue. They seemed very happy with the results of her care.

  13. weing says:

    Yup, that reminds of the time Angelina Jolie got me mixed up with her hubby. I couldn’t convince her I was someone else. Whatta night. I won’t go into it. Too graphic. Maybe someday I’ll write a book.

  14. nwtk2007 says:

    And I thought I could believe anything.

    Why not just get a water hose?

  15. willpower says:

    As a Canadian (like the victim in the first post in this thread), and someone who is married (and separated) from a true believer in chiropractic and other alternative treatments, I have quite an emotional attachment to stopping quacks and frauds who would take my money (and that of my family) and potentially put us in harms way.

    When my son was born, my wife went to a chiropractor for an “adjustment” after childbirth. She brought my son and I. After adjusting my wife, the chiropractor “examined” my son and “adjusted” the top of his spine at the base of his skull. Thankfully, my son was not harmed in any way, nor was my wife. The chiropractor claimed that some of my son’s bones were out of alignment due to the birthing process. My wife, of course, remembered that indeed my son’s head was slightly crooked in the birth canal (as reported by the midwife who birthed our son). My wife was amazed that the chiropractor could detect the mis-alignment in my son’s neck. From my recollection, my wife had already told the chiropractor that childbirth took a while due to the baby’s slightly crooked position inside the birth canal. Yet, true believers believe so strongly that their brains happily reverse the order of events and they “remember” things in an order that confirms their belief. It’s sad, but it happens.

    After researching more on the potentially harmful and deadly effects of chiropractic, there’s not a chance that I would ever allow my son to be taken to a chiropractor again.

    I took Joe’s advice (above) and researched “decompression” on and I am convinced that decompression therapy would be a waste of my time and money.

    Which leaves me wondering — who *should* I see to assess and fix my back problem? My physician? A physiotherapist? Where do I begin? Who can I trust from the start?

  16. Harriet Hall says:


    If your doctor practices science-based medicine and is someone you have confidence in, that’s the obvious place to start. He can refer you to physiotherapy or to a specialist as needed.

  17. quackdoctor says:

    Physiotherapy includes ultrasound, electrostim, ice , heat and excersize therapy. None of which have any or little evidence based study behind them. They are all based on deductive logic and speculation.

  18. Michelle B says:

    Physiotherapy has shown to be effective.

    Evidence based medicine does not need to show why or how it works, but that it is effective, while woo shamelessly exult in its lack of efficacy, putting the blame on the patient for not having enough faith in themselves, in the universe, and in their stoopid freakin’ healer if the malady remains.

  19. quackdoctor says:

    Actually there is no evidence that the majority of whay physiotherapists do is effective, There is no evidence for physical modalities like ultrasound and electrostim, heat or ice. And there is little or no evidence for excersize therapy. All are based on deduction. There is no indication that these therapies work in comparison to just having the patient rest.

  20. weing says:

    I think it was Voltaire who said “Nature effects the cure, the doctor is there just to entertain the patient”. Those modalities may make the patient feel better by relaxing muscles and easing pain. This allows time or nature to heal.

  21. quackdoctor says:

    There is no evidence based study to show that the modalities m ease pain or relax muscles. Simply nothing. In other words much of physiotherapy is a scam. A humbug. In fact very very little Low back pain is muscular that extends beyond a couple of days. So addressing muscles is scammin

  22. Calli Arcale says:

    Calli wrote “My husband sees chiropractors fairly frequently for relief of neck …”

    Did you miss the premise for this post- chiropractic treatment for neck complaints can leave a person “locked in” or, even, seriously dead?

    No, I didn’t miss that at all. When I first met my hubby and found out he was going to chiropractors for neck pain, I insisted on going along to see how they were doing it. Though it is not adequately studied (like most chiropractic techniques, it is done on a “try it and study it later if somebody feels like it” basis), I read on Chirobase that adverse effects have been associated with methods of neck manipulation which involve twisting and/or hyperextending the neck. Methods which do not twist the neck *seem* to be safe. Our compromise was that he could get his neck adjusted as long as it was by a chiropractor who did not twist his neck. I have made him aware of the risks; the rest is up to him, because he is a big boy and can make his own decisions.

    I feel quite differently about a family friend of mine, who intends to take her newborn grandson to a chiropractor to have his neck adjusted. Her grandson has barely learned to hold his head up; he certainly cannot give informed consent. Pediatric chiropractic disturbs me greatly because there is truly little scientifically verifiable evidence, and a significant amount of known risk. Children should not be subjected to risk without a very good expectation that they’ll actually benefit, in my opinion.

    Regarding physiotherapy, there is actually evidence behind a lot of exercise-based therapies. They are not intended to heal a patient, though, at least not directly. The idea is to strengthen the patient’s muscles so that they avoid future injuries. Different therapy regimens do have different quantities of evidence behind them, though, and I have no doubt whatsoever that there is quackery in this area.

  23. Calli Arcale says:


    I admit I had only skimmed your posts, and now reading back, I find the very amusing story you posted of your supposed Amish patients who got stuck together in the act of coitus. I am now utterly convinced that Harriet Hall is right — you are a troll, inventing stories to see just how absurd you can get before anyone sees through you. But the anatomical absurdity of what you posted (to say nothing of the rather sexist implications of what you said about the ladies in your post) make me convinced that you are just having a bit of fun.

    I hope you enjoyed your little jaunt. After all, trolling is usually the only outlet for people who can’t hack it on the standup comedy circuit.

  24. quackdoctor says:

    “But the anatomical absurdity of what you posted”

    Actually is is not absurd at all and has happened historically. I suggest you study vaginismus

    And relative to the comment:

    “Regarding physiotherapy, there is actually evidence behind a lot of exercise-based therapies. They are not intended to heal a patient, though, at least not directly. The idea is to strengthen the patient’s muscles so that they avoid future injuries. Different therapy regimens do have different quantities of evidence behind them, though, and I have no doubt whatsoever that there is quackery in this area.”

    There is little evidence of excersize therapy helping back problems in terms of good studies. There is NO evidence that the other tools of the PT work at all like ultrasound and electrostim. There is NO solid evidence that strenghtening the back prevents injury to any real degree.

    “Pediatric chiropractic disturbs me greatly because there is truly little scientifically verifiable evidence, and a significant amount of known risk.”

    Chiropractic care in newborns does not involve cracking or twisting. Just very gentle pressure. There has never been a case of injury in a newborn documented. So I am not sure how you are saying there is “significant know risk”.

  25. Fifi says:

    While vaginismus certainly exists and isn’t even that uncommon, Penis Captivus seems more likely to be an urban legend. Not that emergency rooms don’t see their fair share of things up people’s wazzoos and odd sexual accidents don’t occur. Wasn’t this part of a storyline on Gray’s Anatomy or EH or something?

  26. quackdoctor says:

    No actually while very rare there have been cases. It really is not an urban legend. I have a textbook somewhere of documented case histories in conventional medicine and it is recorded at least once in medical history. And my patients would make twice. And I would suspect that it would be more likely in relatinships between well endowed black men and white virgin women of small size. But of course I have no evidence of that.

  27. Fifi says:

    Apparently you didn’t check out the link to snopes *lol* Ah well, it’s there for others who’d enjoy knowing that it’s actually a prank that’s “recorded in medical history”.

    quackdoctor – “I would suspect that it would be more likely in relatinships between well endowed black men and white virgin women of small size.”

    Actually you’ve presented no evidence of your other claims either (claiming you have evidence, creating an anecdote about having evidence, isn’t the same as presenting it or actually having any). I too suspect (and hope!) that you’re just a parody of a CAM practitioner. I’m going to choose to think you are because you’re actually quite entertaining if not taken seriously. Adding in the racist angle is a nice touch in making your propositions all the more inflammatory and ludicrous!

  28. quackdoctor says:

    No I did check the link. I know what you are saying, However there was another case reported by 2 MDs much later than that. And then there is my case. And if you cannot trust a quackdoctor who can you trust?

    And please. I am no racist. Everyone knows that black men are quite large. It is an anatomical fact. If you do not believe me ask Harriet. I am sure she knows her anatomy.

  29. daedalus2u says:

    Fifi, quackdoctor seems to know what he is talking about. If he has sufficient experience with a large enough and representative sample to say that he knows that on average black men are larger than non-black men, I would not dispute his obvious expertise.

    He probably isn’t that much of a racist. If that many black men were comfortable enough with him for him to get to know how big they are, the black men were likely not afraid or intimidated by him. He probably has never had a racist bone in his body. He is probably too embarrassed to tell us how many anecdotes his hard won experience is based on.

  30. quackdoctor says:

    Well maybe…But I also have a working knowledge of young virgin white woman. So it all evens out.

  31. Fifi says:

    Thanks for the comic relief quackdoctor *lol* I trust you’ll continue your excellent parody of the ludicrous lengths that the CAM trolls here go to in trying to be provocative.

  32. Calli Arcale says:

    I note the use of the singular “woman”.


    Not to worry. Many men generalize about women based upon a solitary experience. So don’t feel embarrassed or anything, quackdoctor. While it is very unscientific to generalize 50% of the human species based on one individual, it is very common to do so, especially among the closed-minded.

  33. quackdoctor says:

    Well I assure you. I am very scientific. A lot of my knowledge about anatomy and such comes from National Geographic.

  34. Graham Maynard says:

    Hi Willpower.

    Some injuries cannot be helped, but will ease with time – sometimes considerable time.
    I have no wish to give relief advice over a thread, but could make a couple of suggestions if you would like to to e-mail me.

    Cheers …… Graham.

  35. quackdoctor says:

    “I have no wish to give relief advice over a thread, but could make a couple of suggestions if you would like to to e-mail me.”

    Oh please…Just what we need…more quackery. Why don’t you give your advice here? Or are you afraid of how stupid it will sound.

  36. Jurjen S. says:

    nwtk2007 wrote: I personally think the medical community does too much harm to the public in this fashion to have the gaul to “throw stones” at alternative medicine.

    This may come off as petty, but I find it rather emblematic of the whole discussion that an apologist for “alternative medicine” lacks sufficient knowledge of biology to know how to spell “gall” correctly.

  37. quackdoctor says:

    It is petty. Many scientists are not in a high level of command of the English language.

  38. quackdoctor says:

    It was petty.

  39. cowgirldc says:

    There are pros and cons of every single health occupation that is out there. There is a place in the world for chiropractic and there is a place in the world for medicine. You have to remember how long medicine has been in affect vs how long chiropractic has been in affect. People have been practicing medicine since before Christ. So it has evolved with time and has had a chance to do it’s research and find out what works and what doesn’t. Chiropractic has only been around for a couple of centuries. So of course there hasn’t been as much research to prove its’ theories. Yes, people tend to call chiropractic hocus pocus or religious based. I believe that tends to come from the Bible. In biblical times, Luke was called a physician. Luke didn’t use any medications to heal people. He used his hands, herbs and things from nature. So of course, with chiropractors healing with the use of their hands to make manipulations, it has been linked. Did he have research to base his claims of how what he did worked? I don’t think so. I myself am quite torn between medicine and chiropractic. I have had experiences from both. I was also almost killed by a MD who didn’t have the time to listen to my symptoms. He just put me on a medication that was “experimental” at the time because nothing else he had done had changed anything with my body. I actually died twice and was brought back. The medication shut off my liver and my kidneys and took my short term memory and damaged my eyesight. If I had been taking the complete dose of what he had me on instead of only taking a quarter of the dose, I wouldn’t be here writing today. Out of 20 people that were put on the medication, I am the only one who survived. The MD tried to put all of my symptoms off on being stressed out instead of doing more in depth study of what was going on with the drug inside of my body. All of my problems were with my heart. I had 2 surgeries, several meds. Nothing would show up as being a problem. My resting heart rate was about 215. No one could figure it out. After going through the ordeal with the MD, I decided that there must be a better way to try to get well. The endocrinologist that I was seeing suggested that I go see a chiropractor. I wasn’t expecting to see any results considering that the second leading cardiologist in the nation couldn’t fix me and had all but killed me. After the first visit and the x-rays, it was found that I had a slight case of scoliosis and several areas throughout my thoracic spine that didn’t have much disc space. I underwent care for about 4 weeks. I was still wearing a heart monitor. After my first 2 adjustments, my resting heart rate had decreased to 100. After the first 2 weeks of care, my resting heart rate was down to 65. After 4 weeks of care, the DC re-x-rayed my spine. The scoliosis was gone, the disc spaces were increased to almost normal height, the constant headaches and TMJ problems that I had that I didn’t even tell him about were gone as well as my horrible menstrual cramps. He hadn’t told me anything about any of those symptoms being helped because he didn’t even know that I had them!! I was so impressed, that I decided to go to chiropractic college. I went to Parker Chiropractic College in Dallas, TX. I want to debunk any theory that chiropractors are not well trained. We go through a very rigorous training program. One of the requirements of how attuned our hands have to be to feel what is going on in the body is this: Take a Dallas phone book, pull a single strand of hair from your head, have a friend lay that hair anywhere under the entire phone book while you aren’t looking, now you take your fingertips and trace that hair our through the cover and all. If you can’t trace that hair our, you don’t graduate from palpation class. We graduate with approx. 4400 hours. Out of that study, we have one 6 hour class on drugs. The rest of our study is on how the human body works. MD’s graduate with 500 hours less than we have. Over half of their hours are on the study of medications. How do they seem to know more about the human body than DC’s do? At Parker, there is an entire research team that is dedicated to doing just that, RESEARCH. As I said previously, no, there aren’t as many studies out there on chiro, but Parker is trying to change that. With chiro still being such a new science it is hard to get funding to prove our case when MD’s and Pharmaceutical companies are competing with us for the same monies. Medicine kills over 450,000 people a year, yet the want of people wanting a pill to quickly mask their problems still has people seeking them out regardless of the risk. With chiropractic, all of the cases that are supposedly linked with death, at autopsy most were found to already have had underlying health issues. If you want more proof on those numbers, contact Parker college and they will be glad to give you all of the information that you want. Another fact is, that we are well taught and informed of all techniques. 99.9% of us DO NOT PERFORM THE UPPER CERVICAL MOVEMENT THAT PUTS THE PATIENT AT RISK FOR VAD. At Parker, we were taught to go through a 2 hour comprehensive physical on EVERY patient that walked through our doors as well has perform x-rays on any patient that had any contraindicating factors before we ever laid a hand on them. We also gave the patients several pages of literature on chiropractic, what we know about it, the risks that may possibly be involved, etc. The patient had to read through the entire packet and sign that they understood that before we would even start with the process of the physical. If there were ANY red flags that stood out, we would send the patient out for MRI’s and other testing to make sure that there were no underlying problems that may increase any risk to the patient. With all that being said, I have been in practice for a couple of years. I have had people from all over the US drive to see me because they have been to other MD’s and DC’s and haven’t had any results. I have had people that have been on fertility drugs for 15 years trying to get pregnant. After a couple of adjustments, they get pregnant. I have had people that have been brought into my clinic in wheelchairs that had no use of any of their limbs, walk out of my clinic. My own father was almost completely deaf. After a couple of full spine adjustments, he can hear. I have had people who have severe vision problems get almost 20/20 vision after a few adjustments. I have had autistic children that were so severe that the parents were going to put them in a home because they couldn’t handle them. After a month of treatment, the children had tremendous improvement in all skill areas. My own husband suffered from severe asthma his entire life. He would use 6-10 inhalers plus powdered inhalers in one month. After we met and I started giving him a full spine adjustment once a month, he now uses LESS THAN ONE ASPIRATION INHALER A MONTH. I know that there aren’t as many studies and I know that there isn’t a great understanding of all of the aspects of chiropractic. But above all of that, there are good ones and bad ones in ANY profession that you look at. The ones who really care will do anything in their power to help another person. If you go into any health profession for the money, you are in it for the wrong reason. If I thought that there was ANY danger in the care that I give my patients, I would not be in this profession. That is why I decided to become chiropractor instead of an MD. I have a family member who is in med school right now. She said that in one of her first days of class the instructor stated this:” YOU WILL BE RESPONSIBLE FOR KILLING SOMEONE AT SOME POINT IN TIME BY GOING INTO THIS PROFESSION. YOU MIGHT AS WELL ACCEPT IT AND GET OVER IT. IT WILL HAPPEN”. With that kind of thought it is hard to trust that they will do whatever is in your best interest. I know there are things that chiropractic can’t help as well as I know there are things that medicine can’t help. If we could just find a way to work together, and do more research in both fields, then mankind would have the best of both worlds. Until we can find a way where chiropractic never does anyone harm and medicine never does anyone any harm, then I wouldn’t say that either one of the professions is up to the standard that they need to be. I just know one thing, THERE IS NOTHING THAT I DO IN MY PRACTICE THAT WILL EVER BRING HARM TO ANYONE

  40. Joe says:

    Well, Cowgirl, you certainly have a lot of anecdotes. However, I must take exception to your understanding of history and research. When chiropracty sprang (full-grown) from Palmer’s head in 1895, much of what was known as “medicine” would, today, be called quackery. What we know, today, as safe and effective medicine evolved since then. Thus, chiros have had the same length of time to develop in a science-based way as medics and osteopaths did. The inability to abandon the silly notions of the founding father is one reason that chiro is a cult.

    Chiropractic is not lacking in research, it is lacking in high-quality research supporting its claims. The problem seems to be that the better the research, the less it supports chiro (except for its equivalence to massage for low-back pain).

    The standard complaint that they haven’t had the time to develop is not valid.

  41. weing says:

    Interesting view of history. People have been walking for ages. They’ve learned what works and what doesn’t. Flying by airplanes is less than 100 years old, so of course the science hasn’t had a chance to do all its research.

  42. vargkill says:

    You know, i have to admit, since discovering this site i realized
    how amusing it is to watch you people hash it out on this blog.

    I aldso realize how we are just many many people with different
    opinions. All adding a different and entertaning touch to this
    whole SBM thing. This is really just one big circus filled with
    colorful characters. In the waking hours of my long and sometimes boring IT job its fun to watch you all in here!

    One big question keeps crossing my mind for all of you, mainly
    the doctors and scientists who post.

    What is the point in going back and forth with people who
    you know damn well your not going to change their opinions?
    If someone believes in CAM you telling them its fake is not going
    to change anything right? So instead of saving the world or
    proving CAM believers wrong, you would better spend your
    time inhabiting this blog and arguing like a bunch of school
    yard kids?


    Thanks for keeping me full of laughs!

  43. Harriet Hall says:

    We aren’t foolish enough to hope to change the mind of any true believers. We are trying to point out their errors for the benefit of other readers who may not have already made up their minds.

    Opinions? You are entitled to your own opinions, but you are not entitled to your own facts. Jenny McCarthy is of the opinion that vaccines cause autism, but the facts are not on her side.

  44. cheglabratjoe says:

    “So instead of saving the world or
    proving CAM believers wrong, you would better spend your
    time inhabiting this blog and arguing like a bunch of school
    yard kids?”

    From the guy who just childishly taunted everyone here and offered nothing of substance to add to the discussion. Cute. But we’re all glad you’re having fun, vargkill.

    As for the one part of your comment that warrants responding to, many CAM believers have been largely proven wrong. That’s why they need to resort to the underhanded tactics combated here to continue to fleece the public.

  45. weing says:

    We can’t help everyone. Some are totally lost in this plague of ignorance. There are also those that can be helped. They just have to use their heads. If you let nonsense stand unchallenged, it becomes part of the background and very difficult to see.

  46. vargkill says:

    Oh so you get to decide who is entitled to their own facts?
    Well guess what Harriet Hall, I will believe what i choose to
    be a fact if i so please, and i could personally care less what
    Jenny McCarthy believes.

    You know, i think today i am going to believe that if i stick
    hot peppers up my ass that it will let me see into the future!
    Now i believe that as i fact! Try and take that away from you
    me you hag women!

    God forbid anyone dare think outside of your narrow universe
    that you live so concealed within.

    **Braces himself for more jibberjabber rhetoric from the
    scientists, doctors, and sci/doc nut huggers**

    ……(‘(…´…´…. ¯~/’…’)

    Please Mrs/Ms Hall GREASE IT UP AND BOUNCE!

    Better yet, maybe you can have some of your Psychiatric Colleagues phycoanalize why i might have typed this to
    someone like you on here.

  47. Diane says:

    Mature discourse vargkill, so balanced and reasoned.


  48. cheglabratjoe says:

    Seriously, vargkill? An ascii middle finger and a sexually offensive comment towards Harriet? What a class act you turned out to be.

    At least pec kept the insults, lies, and distortions not overtly offensive when she got frustrated and flipped out in the other long chiropractic thread. You might want to go get copies of her troll notes to study.

  49. weing says:

    It looks like some are having a discourse and some are arguing like some schoolyard kids.

  50. vargkill says:

    Naw man, i just decided to come down to level of the folk
    who like to come on here. The difference is that instead of dancing around and being subtle i just decided to say how
    i really feel. Don’t take it so serious, not like this is real life
    and we are face to face, its a damn internet blog people!

    What can i say? Sometimes i like to be vile, obtrusive, and rotten! I also like to have sex with dead bodies. Hows that
    for being sublte? About as sublte as a brick going throug
    a plate glass window perhaps?

    You people are funny to me!


    I acctually think you’re one of the more down to earth people
    i have talked to on here.

  51. cheglabratjoe says:

    The level of the folks on here? I don’t read all the comments here, so I must have missed these folks and their comments. Did they post ascii art and regularly make sexually offensive comments? Which entry was it in? Was it this one (it’s almost a year old, so I only read the recent comments)?

  52. Diane says:

    Maybe it’s time to bring out the big virtual eraser/deleter/ban button.

  53. vargkill says:


    Go ahead and ban me, ill come back with another screen name.


    It is so easy to get you people angry, what ever happened
    to havine a laissez-faire attitude?

    You see my big issue is, some folks try to make honest posts
    on here and express their notions ect, only to be met with
    bullshit responses about and rhtoerical gameplay.

    Say i come on here and say, geeeeez i went to see a acupressure person and it helped, then someone will
    say, Where the evidence? Wheres the proof? The burden
    of proof is on you, and just general bullshit that doesnt allow
    someone to just have an opinion. Its always gotta be some
    back and forth crap from you people who are arrogant enough
    to think you know everything. So from now on im going to
    watch and laugh and just be an asshole because i have
    a boring IT job and after i go to the bathroom at work and
    smoke a fat joint, its amusing to watch you people go on and on
    about this crap and think you know everything.

    Thanks for the entertainment!!

  54. vargkill says:


    You like my ascii art? That one took me 3 minutes to come
    up with! I have lots of time while im monitering servers
    and repairing computers and work stations.

    Any requests?

  55. David Gorski says:

    ……(’(…´…´…. ¯~/’…’)
    Please Mrs/Ms Hall GREASE IT UP AND BOUNCE!


    We’re pretty tolerant of strong, even heated debate here and even more lax when it comes to comment moderation (which is usually almost nonexistent, actually, other than to publish comments caught by the spam filters), but every so often someone gets out of hand to the point where we finally notice. This time, that would be you. If you pull one more offensive stunt like that or if you continue your insults and trolling, you will be banned and your login deleted. This will be your only warning.

    I would also say that you owe Harriet an apology, but I think you’re too childish to realize you’ve done something wrong and take responsibility for it

  56. David Gorski says:

    Don’t take it so serious, not like this is real life
    and we are face to face, its a damn internet blog people!

    Ah, so you are trolling. I thought as much.

  57. vargkill says:

    David Gorski,

    My first intensions where simple, see if i can add a prospective
    from some things i have personally expirenced. Then i realized
    how utterly impossible it is to have a conversation with most
    of you without some kinda smart ass challanging rhetoric.

    So call it trolling, i call it entertainment.

    Thank you for your observation David!

  58. Prometheus says:

    Vargkill whines:

    Say i come on here and say, geeeeez i went to see a acupressure person and it helped, then someone will say, Where the evidence? Wheres the proof? The burden
    of proof is on you, and just general bullshit that doesnt [sic] allow someone to just have an opinion.

    Vargkill has apparently missed the purpose of this forum. Strange – it’s right in the title: Science-Based Medicine.

    Of course, Vargkill is entitled to have an opinion. Everybody is entitled to have an opinion. However, Vargkill seems to have confused his ability to form an opinion with the ability to have an informed opinion.

    I think that the Chicago Cubs are the greatest baseball team of all time – that’s my opinion. If I went onto a sports ‘blog and posted that opinion, I would expect to be savaged by people who are much more knowledgable about baseball and who would point out to me the rather appalling record of the Chicago Cubs in the past 100 years.

    So, if Vargkill comes onto a ‘blog about science-based medicine and asserts that accupressure “helped”, he/she should expect to have that “opinion” challenged by people who are more knowledgable.

    If Vargkill doesn’t think he/she can support his/her opinion with data, that is not the fault of the people on this ‘blog – the ground rules are right in the title. If this is a problem for Vargkill, there are plenty of other ‘blogs where an opinion like that would not be challenged – he/she is free to go there and avoid the unpleasantness of having to justify his/her opinion.

    In short, don’t trot out the tired anti-intellectual defense of “can’t I have my own opinion” when you’re losing the debate. If it’s just your own opinion, with no data to support it, maybe you should keep it to yourself.

    Oh, and don’t try the “…my right to free speech…” defense, either. Nobody is keeping you from speaking your “piece”, even if they don’t lend you the space to speak it.


  59. Chris says:


    So call it trolling, i call it entertainment.

    For that alone you should be banned. Also, like most trolls you are very boring.

  60. vargkill says:


    Im boring? I hardly ever see you post anything and yet you
    call me boring? When is the last time you posted anything?

    Ok Chris, if thats the best you got then i guess you are a better
    person then me! You win!

    **hangs head in shame**

  61. David Gorski says:


    So call it trolling, i call it entertainment.

    For that alone you should be banned. Also, like most trolls you are very boring.

    What vargkill apparently meant to say is that his trolling entertains him and he doesn’t care if it alternately bores and irritates everyone else here. He is just that self-involved.

    I wlll, however, consider your suggestion, Chris.

  62. Chris says:

    Sorry, I wasn’t clear: The reason he should be banned is that he is trolling for his own entertainment, plus he is a very boring troll. He usually goes from obtuse cluelessness to vulgarity, with no insight in between.

    Yes, I do not post much, since I am mostly a lurker and read for my own enlightenment and entertainment (I learned earlier not to engage vargkill). Plus I spend less than a couple hours a day online, I am now going to turn off the laptop and go to a “Festival of Trees” garden event, work in my garden while listening to this weeks Skeptic’s Guide to the Universe and the “Wait Wait Don’t Tell Me” podcasts, and then enjoy a Mother’s Day dinner.

    Have a good rest of the weekend.

  63. vargkill says:

    David Gorski,

    What i mean is that i have tried to have conversations with
    some of you on here and its always some bullshit. Its like
    no one can have a decent conversation without someone
    trying to argue.

    Like i said, ban me ill just come back with another screen name
    and use a different IP. Ban all you want, ill just keep coming back!

  64. vargkill says:


    I have added plenty of notions before.
    It was not until recently that i said i liked trolling just to piss
    everyone off.


    Had no idea Chiro practice was under scrunity, made that
    statement and everyone jumps on me is if im trying to defend
    their practice of which i was clueless like a lot of the public
    that there was a problem.

    Its only when things get foul that i post stuff to make people

  65. vargkill says:

    Something interesting for the crowd.

    “The placebo effect”

    Not just a definition, but something very powerful.
    This effect can be attributed to the power of
    suggestion and belief.

    Does anyone else out there think that this could show
    perhaps that the mind has the ability to heal the body?

    And no im not advocating CAM practice or anything else.
    I just want some opinions from some of you out there.

  66. daedalus2u says:

    I have a good discussion of the physiology of the placebo effect.

  67. vargkill says:

    Interesting indeed! I enjoyed reading that.

  68. Diane says:

    vargkill –> “Does anyone else out there think that this could show
    perhaps that the mind has the ability to heal the body?”

    No, just that one part of the brain, or brain function, known colloquially as “mind”, has the capacity to learn to downregulate or ignore pain produced in, or sensation processed in, other, non-conscious parts of the brain. Context must be managed, usually. Education is involved. People can be taught how to do this for themselves. Neuroplasticity is a fact of life – all that it takes is learning how to steer it favorably.

    None of this has any bearing whatever on anything or process which is categorically pathological. But it is helpful for pain management.

    Patrick Wall MD (one of the fathers of pain science, in his book, The Puzzle of Pain) wrote that he preferred the term, “placebo response”, something “elicited from“, not something “administered to“, a subject or patient. He said that the best pain reliever was the brain itself, that it gave exactly the right dosage at the right moment and was active for just the right length of time.

    There are ethical and science-based ways to elicit this, and there are unethical, a-scientific ways. Ethical ways involve leaving the locus of control completely with the subject or patient, explaining to them how it works. Unethical ways usually involve the practitioner setting him or herself up as some sort of hero/expert/guru in touch with subtle energies or quantum mechanics or something else bogus or religious, retaining credit and all the control which he or she will dispense for some large sum.


  69. storkdok says:

    My suggestion is…don’t feed the troll. He will go away if he is not fed.

  70. Dacks says:

    I have to agree with vargill, he is entertaining…in a sort of freak show kind of way. But sometimes you just want the show to end.

  71. vargkill says:

    dtorkdok, Dacks,

    It was a legit question.

    If you don’t like it then don’t comment.
    Whens the last time you contributed anything useful
    or sparked a conversation involving anything mind triggering
    on here?

  72. vargkill says:


    It makes me wonder what the brain could really do if we
    took more time to develop its full ability.

    I think its a fantastic thing to think about.
    shaolin monks are an amazing place to start as to how
    they condition their bodies to be able to do the things
    that they do.

    Maybe it is wishful thinking but it seems as if humans could
    be far more self sufficient then we might realize.

    Im gonna check out that book and give it a read.

  73. Diane says:

    vargkill –> “I think its a fantastic thing to think about.
    shaolin monks are an amazing place to start as to how
    they condition their bodies to be able to do the things
    that they do.”

    Caution: don’t be too mesmerized or swept up by mere packaging. Pain downregulation/control over body sensation is a rather ordinary capacity that any intact brain can learn, given the right info – it really only is a matter of training. If it weren’t, figure skating and other Olympian-type feats wouldn’t be possible/learnable/performable. Neuroplasticity can account for any of it. No magic or voodoo or spiritual anything is involved. It’s neuroscience.

    If you like reading, Norman Doidge MD, author of the book The Brain that Changes Itself, refers to pain as the “downside” of neuroplasticity. The upside is, pain can be diminished with specific additional “learning.”

    Again, I stress, none of this has anything to do with frank pathology (e.g., cancer) or pain that arises from it. Luckily, most ordinary pain is not pathological, it’s just annoying to people. It is annoying enough, though, to send them off to see all sorts of dubious practitioners, whose constructs I find intellectually offensive, abusive even. Which is how this particular exchange began between you and me, when I objected to your apparent support of their short-circuited a-scientific thinking.


  74. vargkill says:


    Everytime i go to my acupressure guy, i walk away pain free
    or problem free. Im not saying that he could help me for every
    problem but what he has done for me works every time. Should
    i just ignore that? Im not against SBM nor am i an advocate for
    CAM, im just a regular guy who believes he has found a man
    with a gift. This does not take away from what you do but it
    in my eyes says that in this world there are things that cannot
    be explained. Im not trying to offend you intellectually nor am
    i trying to down play the work you do.

    If you are trained in logical process of thinking scientifically
    then there is a chance you also do not believe in anything
    spirtual. Not saying you dont, just saying with that in mind
    if you cannot prove the existence of anything supernatural
    it would be more logical for you to believe in what you can
    find more proof in right? So if someone told you they believe
    in god and not evolution, would you find that to be intellectually offensive? Since it does not feed into your idea of what is
    and what is not?

    Just saying…

    You do not have to believe me nor do you have to believe
    in acupressure.

    What i am saying as well is i think we dont give our own bodies
    enough credit for what it can truly be capable of. I know its
    a bit far fetched in your mind, but i think its a pretty damn cool idea and something worth exploring.

  75. Blue Wode says:

    A new development…

    “Alberta gov’t. seeks to dismiss $500 million lawsuit by chiropractic patient

    By The Canadian Press

    EDMONTON — The Alberta government is expected to go court Monday in a bid to derail a $500 million class action lawsuit filed by a woman who claims she was severely injured during a visit to a chiropractor.

    Sandra Nette of Edmonton filed the lawsuit last year against the province and the Alberta College and Association of Chiropractors.

    In her statement of claim, Nette says she received an upper neck adjustment that ruptured her vertebral arteries, causing strokes that left her paralyzed.

    The lawsuit alleges Alberta chiropractors put the lives and health of their patients at risk by subjecting them to inappropriate and non-beneficial adjustments of their spines and necks.

    In the statement, Nette says the association and the government should have been aware that such spine manipulations are without scientific justification and pose a threat to people.

    Statements of claim contain allegations that have not been proven in court.”

    Does anyone know any more about this?

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