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Mortality and lack of health insurance

The 2012 election campaign is in full swing, and, for better or worse, health care is one of the major defining issues of the election. How can it not be, given the passage of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (PPACA), also colloquially known as “Obamacare,” was one of the Obama administration’s major accomplishments and arguably the largest remaking of the American health care system since Medicare in 1965? It’s also been singularly unpopular thus far, contributing to the Republican takeover of the House of Representatives in the 2010 elections, as well as the erosion of Democratic control of the Senate. Given that this is a medical blog dedicated to discussing the scientific basis of medicine and not a political or health policy blog, I am not going to go into the reasons for a lot of this. What I am going discuss is a recent eruption of the central problem that led President Obama to make the PPACA one of the central policy initiatives, if not the central policy initiative, of his first term. That problem is the issue of people without health insurance, who number roughly 50 million, with a further estimate that 86.7 million people were uninsured at some point during the two year period from 2007 to 2008, representing about 29% of the total U.S. population under 65.

The question that bubbled to the surface last week in the form of a statement by Republican challenger Mitt Romney, and a tear-inducing op-ed piece published yesterday in the New York Times by Nicholas Kristof entitled A Possibly Fatal Mistake, is what the health impact of not having insurance is for those millions of people. This is a question that can be addressed scientifically and is, despite its politically charged nature, correctly within the purview of science-based medicine. What to do about it, in contrast, is a matter for politics and public policy. So first let’s examine the question.

A clueless statement and an op-ed that puts a face on the problem

Before we discuss the evidence regarding the health effects of being uninsured, let’s look Romney’s statement and why it resulted in so much blowback. Romney made his assertion during an interview with the editors of The Columbus Dispatch:

“We don’t have a setting across this country where if you don’t have insurance, we just say to you, ‘Tough luck, you’re going to die when you have your heart attack,’” he said as he offered more hints as to what he would put in place of “Obamacare,” which he has pledged to repeal.

“No, you go to the hospital, you get treated, you get care, and it’s paid for, either by charity, the government or by the hospital. We don’t have people that become ill, who die in their apartment because they don’t have insurance.”

He pointed out that federal law requires hospitals to treat those without health insurance — although hospital officials frequently say that drives up health-care costs.

Romney was referring to the Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act (EMTALA), a federal law passed in 1986 under the Reagan administration that requires hospitals to provide care to anyone needing emergency treatment regardless of citizenship, legal status, or ability to pay. Hospitals may only transfer or discharge patients requiring emergency care after stabilization, when their condition requires transfer to a tertiary care hospital, or against medical advice. It is highly unlikely that any person who has ever worked in an emergency room or cared for the uninsured would make such a statement. Emergency rooms are not equipped to treat complex conditions; all they can do is to treat the acute problem. In addition, tertiary care hospitals receive a lot of patients admitted under EMTALA, who are transferred at the drop of a hat. Well do I remember my days as a surgery resident rotating in the county hospital, when we used to joke about the Friday afternoon phone calls to transfer patients who had failed a wallet biopsy. We even knew what time was the “witching hour,” when we were most likely to get such calls. Of course, the problem with EMTALA was (and is) that there were no provisions for reimbursement for uncompensated care. Basically, hospitals were forced by law to eat the costs of caring for the uninsured.

Since completing fellowship, I have held faculty positions in two of the 41 NCI-designated comprehensive cancer centers in the U.S., both of which take care of a lot of uninsured patients. In New Jersey, I used to take care of quite a few illegal immigrants. Here in Detroit, it’s the uninsured and the poor, so much so that a large fraction of my practice is made up of the uninsured and Medicaid patients. I’ve seen more women than I can remember who waited far longer than they should have to see a doctor for their breast cancer because they couldn’t afford it. Over the years, all too often my patients have been symptomatic for quite some time, and when they finally do present their tumors are larger, more difficult to treat, and more likely to kill them. They represent the female equivalent of Kristof’s uninsured friend Scott, who is the human face of the issue discussed in his NYT op-ed and tells his story:

In 2011 I began having greater difficulty peeing. I didn’t go see the doctor because that would have been several hundred dollars out of pocket — just enough disincentive to get me to make a bad decision.

Early this year, I began seeing blood in my urine, and then I got scared. I Googled “blood in urine” and turned up several possible explanations. I remember sitting at my computer and thinking, “Well, I can afford the cost of an infection, but cancer would probably bust my bank and take everything in my I.R.A. So I’m just going to bet on this being an infection.”

I was extremely busy at work since it was peak tax season, so I figured I’d go after April 15. Then I developed a 102-degree fever and went to one of those urgent care clinics in a strip mall. (I didn’t have a regular physician and hadn’t been getting annual physicals.)

The doctor there gave me a diagnosis of prostate infection and prescribed antibiotics. That seemed to help, but by April 15 it seemed to be getting worse again. On May 3 I saw a urologist, and he drew blood for tests, but the results weren’t back yet that weekend when my health degenerated rapidly.

A friend took me to the Swedish Medical Center Emergency Room near my home. Doctors ran blood labs immediately. A normal P.S.A. test for prostate cancer is below 4, and mine was 1,100. They also did a CT scan, which turned up possible signs of cancerous bone lesions. Prostate cancer likes to spread to bones.

I also had a blood disorder called disseminated intravascular coagulation, which is sometimes brought on by prostate cancer. It basically causes you to destroy your own blood cells, and it’s abbreviated as D.I.C. Medical students joke that it stands for “death is close.”

I realize that right now I’m referring to my anecdotal experience. However, one anecdote is that of a man who gambled and lost because health insurance was too expensive. The rest is my experience in a highly specialized field in a city with high unemployment and poverty. It is quite possible that such experience can be misleading, and certainly one of the key messages we promote on this blog is that anecdotal experience is inherently potentially misleading. (That’s why it’s the primary evidence used by promoters of unscientific or pseudoscientific medicine.) In a way, Kristof’s friend’s story would seem to confirm Romney’s statement, at least on the surface. Scott did, after all, end up getting excellent medical care for his stage IV prostate cancer, and, although he probably could have afforded health insurance if he had stretched a bit, did make a choice not to purchase insurance. But, then, as I said, anecdotes can be misleading.

The evidence

Before we get into the data itself, it is not much of a stretch to imagine that not having health insurance would result in worse health outcomes. What I am trying to say using SBM-speak is that the hypothesis that people without health insurance will be more likely to have health problems and die unnecessarily than people who have decent health insurance is a hypothesis with a fairly high degree of prior plausibility. After all, if you’re uninsured, you’re less likely to see a physician except when you get sick, less likely to be able to pay for your medications (particularly if they are expensive), and less likely to undergo routine preventative care. It’s thus plausible that being uninsured would be associated with an increased risk of death or poor health outcomes. None of this means we don’t have to do the research and look at the evidence; all it does is to suggest hypotheses to test and emphasize that these hypotheses have a reasonable chance of being consistent with the data.

Even twenty years ago, this question was of intense interest. One of the seminal studies examining the relationship between health insurance and health outcomes was published in JAMA by Franks et al., who prospectively followed 4,694 adults older than 25 years who reported they were uninsured or privately insured in the first National Health and Nutrition Examination Survey (NHANES I), a representative cohort of the US population from initial interview in 1971 through 1975 until 1987. They found a 25% higher risk of mortality in the uninsured after adjusting for age, smoking, alcohol consumption, obesity, education and income. This effect was evident in all sociodemographic health insurance and mortality groups examined.

In 2002, the Institute of Medicine estimated that over 18,000 Americans between the ages of 25-64 die annually because of lack of health insurance, a number comparable to the number who died of diabetes, stroke, or homicide in 2001. Among the conclusions of this report:

  • Uninsured adults are less likely than adults with any kind of health coverage to receive preventive and screening services and to receive them on a timely basis. Health insurance that provides coverage of preventive and screening services is likely to result in greater and more appropriate use of these services.
  • Uninsured cancer patients generally are in poorer health and are more likely to die prematurely than persons with insurance, largely because of delayed diagnosis. This finding is supported by population-based studies of persons with breast, cervical, colorectal, and prostate cancer and melanoma.
  • Uninsured adults with diabetes are less likely to receive recommended services. Lacking health insurance for longer periods increases the risk of inadequate care for this condition and can lead to uncontrolled blood sugar levels, which, over time, put diabetics at risk for additional chronic disease and disability.
  • Uninsured adults with hypertension or high blood cholesterol have diminished access to care, are less likely to be screened, are less likely to take prescription medication if diagnosed, and experience worse health outcomes.
  • Uninsured patients with end-stage renal disease begin dialysis with more severe disease than do those who had insurance before beginning dialysis.
  • Uninsured adults with HIV infection are less likely to receive highly effective medications that have been shown to improve survival and die sooner than those with coverage.
  • Uninsured patients who are hospitalized for a range of conditions are more likely to die in the hospital, to receive fewer services when admitted, and to experience substandard care and resultant injury than are insured patients.
  • Uninsured persons with trauma are less likely to be admitted to the hospital, more likely to receive fewer services when admitted, and are more likely to die than are insured trauma victims.
  • Uninsured patients with acute cardiovascular disease are less likely to be admitted to a hospital that performs angiography or revascularization procedures, are less likely to receive these diagnostic and treatment procedures, and are more likely to die in the short term.

In 2008, the Urban Institute updated the IOM numbers by applying the methodology used by the IOM to more recent Census Bureau estimates of the uninsured, and estimated that in 2006 there were 22,000 excess deaths that could be attributed to lack of health insurance. The Urban Institute also suggested that the IOM analysis might have underestimated the number of deaths resulting from being uninsured. Its rationale was as follows:

The underlying longitudinal studies on which IOM relied did not specify the impact of insurance coverage on mortality by 10-year age groups. Rather, they documented the relationship between insurance and mortality across the sum total of all surveyed age groups. The IOM’s methodology implicitly assumed that insurance reduces mortality by the identical percentage for each 10-year age band, which the underlying research did not show. More grounded in the research would be an application of differential mortality estimates to all adults age 25–64, as was done for those longitudinal studies, rather than separately to each age group within this range. For 2000–06, this alternative approach raises the estimated number of excess deaths by an average of 20.5 percent a year.

In 2009, in a study from Harvard Medical School and the Cambridge Health Alliance, Wilper et al. published updated estimate of excess mortality associated with lack of insurance in the American Journal of Public Health. This analysis used methodology similar to that of Franks et al. applied to the third National Health and Nutrition Examination Survey (NHANES III), specifically 9,004 patients between ages 17 and 64 with complete baseline data for interview and physical examination. They found that the hazard ratio for death for the uninsured was 1.40 (confidence interval 1.06 to 1.84) compared to those with private health insurance. This particular study is the source of a rather famous number: 45,000 patients die due to lack of insurance each year. This particular study is at the high end of the estimates of excess deaths associated with lack of health insurance, which is why it not surprisingly often comes in for the most criticism, particularly given that it was supported by a partisan group, Physicians for a National Health Program. That’s why I tend to view this study as an outlier, but even outliers can sometimes tell us something. Whether the Harvard study was an outlier or not, that same year, the IOM updated its 2002 report. One of its conclusions was:

In contrast, the body of evidence on the effects of uninsurance on adults’ health has strengthened considerably since 2002. Numerous studies have addressed some of the methodological shortcomings of past research. As discussed further below, 17 observational and 13 quasi-experimental rigorous analyses have reported significant findings related to health insurance and adults’ health (Table 3-3) (McWilliams, 2008). The quality and consistency of the recent research findings is striking. As would be expected, health insurance is clearly most beneficial for adults who need medical attention, particularly for adults with common chronic conditions or acute conditions for which effective treatments are available. Furthermore, national studies assessing the effects of near-universal Medicare coverage after age 65 suggest that uninsured near-elderly adults who are acutely or chronically ill substantially benefit from gaining health insurance coverage.

There are 13 recent studies on the health effects of health insurance coverage for children, including 5 studies that used quasi-experimental methods (Aizer, 2007; Bermudez and Baker, 2005; Cousineau et al., 2008; Currie et al., 2008; Howell et al., 2008a). These studies suggest that health insurance is beneficial for children in several ways, resulting in more timely diagnosis of serious health conditions, fewer avoidable hospitalizations, better asthma outcomes, and fewer missed school days (Aizer, 2007; Bermudez and Baker, 2005; Cousineau et al., 2008; Currie et al., 2008; Damiano et al., 2003; Fox et al., 2003; Froehlich et al., 2007; Howell and Trenholm, 2007; Howell et al., 2008a,b; Maniatis et al., 2005; Szilagyi et al., 2004, 2006).

But that’s not all. Since it’s my specialty, I’ll start by looking at some of the evidence regarding the outcomes of breast cancer patients who are uninsured compared to those who have health insurance. For example, a study published this year examining the outcomes of 2,157 hospital admissions for women with spinal metastases from breast cancer. Analyses were adjusted for differences in patient age, gender, primary tumor histology, socioeconomic status, hospital bed size, and hospital teaching status. The investigators found that women operated on for spinal metastases from breast cancer tended to do worse and have a higher risk of death if they were uninsured than if they had private insurance. The authors concluded that the poorer outcomes observed among the uninsured were primarily due to the uninsured patients being significantly more likely to have a nonelective hospital admission and present with myelopathy. Although this study had some limitations, namely that it couldn’t account for lesser quality private insurance (for instance, plans with high copays and/or poorer coverage) and variations in Medicaid eligibility by state. Also, the database used only includes in-hospital data and therefore couldn’t examine long-term outcomes.

Since surgery is also my specialty, I thought I’d also point out that there is considerable evidence that being uninsured or underinsured is associated with worse outcomes after surgery. For example, a recent study published in the Annals of Surgery from LePar et al. at the University of Virginia examined outcomes from 893,658 major surgical operations and found that mortality was considerably worse in Medicare, Medicaid, and the uninsured than they were in patients with private insurance. Adjusting for age, gender, income, geographic region, operation, and 30 comorbid conditions eliminated the outcome disparity for Medicare patients, but Medicaid and uninsured payer status still independently conferred the highest adjusted risks of mortality.

In fact, the list of conditions and procedures for which being uninsured is associated with poorer outcomes and higher mortality goes on and on: cardiac valve surgery, surgery for colorectal cancer, breast cancer treatment and outcomes, trauma mortality (including among children), and abdominal aortic aneurysms, to name a few. Moreover, analysis of survey data from patients who were uninsured but then became old enough to be enrolled in Medicare suggests that “acquisition of Medicare coverage was associated with improved trends in self-reported health for previously uninsured adults, particularly those with cardiovascular disease or diabetes.” In summary, there is a large and robust body of evidence suggesting that people do, in fact, die because of lack of health insurance.

Not so fast…

Of course, for a question as complex and prone to confounders as whether lack of health insurance is associated with poorer outcomes, including mortality, there are always those who are not convinced by existing observational data. Certainly, lack of health insurance can be a marker, not a cause, for poor health and subsequent poor outcomes, and teasing out the various confounding factors is not a trivial task. Perhaps the most widely cited study questioning this relationship was featured prominently in an oft-cited article in the lay press by Megan McArdle in The Atlantic entitled Myth diagnosis. It’s a study by Richard Kronick published in Health Services Research in 2009 that questions the IOM report from 2002:

These results demonstrate that if two people are otherwise similar at baseline on characteristics controlled for in the model presented in Table 3, but one is insured and the other uninsured, their likelihood of survival over a 2–16-year follow-up period is nearly identical. Further, I show that survival probabilities for the insured and uninsured are similar even among disadvantaged subsets of the population; that there are no differences for long-term uninsured compared with short-term uninsured; that the results are no different when the length of the follow-up period is shortened; and that there are no differences when causes of death are restricted to those causes thought to be amenable to the quality of health care.

Basically, Kronick found no relationships between insurance status and mortality. While this study was large (600,000 subjects) and controlled, it is also an outlier, just as much as the Harvard study is an outlier. Again, that doesn’t mean it was a bad study; outliers can often tell us something, and what Kronick seems to be telling us is that the magnitude of the effect on mortality associated with lack of insurance might not be as large as previously thought. Might. It is, remember, just one study, as large as it might be. McArdle might refer to Kronick’s study as “what may be the largest and most comprehensive analysis yet done of the effect of insurance on mortality,” which sounds incredibly impressive, but the simple fact is that no single study can provide the answer, particularly to question as complex as whether having no health insurance status is associated with increased mortality and poor outcomes. Kronick’s study also has a significant problem that was pointed out in this post by Ezra Klein, namely that people in poor health are more likely to seek health insurance, which would tend to obscure any positive relationship between health insurance and health status.

McArdle also makes another argument against such a relationship:

This result is not, perhaps, as shocking as it seems. Health care heals, but it also kills. Someone who lacked insurance over the past few decades might have missed taking their Lipitor, but also their Vioxx or Fen-Phen. According to one estimate, 80,000 people a year are killed just by “nosocomial infections”—infections that arise as a result of medical treatment. The only truly experimental study on health insurance, a randomized study of almost 4,000 subjects done by Rand and concluded in 1982, found that increasing the generosity of people’s health insurance caused them to use more health care, but made almost no difference in their health status.

I hate to say it, but McArdle is drifting rather close to Gary Null territory here, in which she seems to be arguing that whatever benefit having decent health insurance might convey, it’s about the same as the harm that “conventional” medicine does. In other words, her argument seems to be that providing people more access to health care will cause as much harm as benefit, making it a wash whether one is insured or not. Of course, that argument cuts both ways, if you accept estimates of over 100,000 “deaths by medicine” per year in that it would imply that having health insurance confers a benefit in terms of mortality reduction that is much larger than the numbers we have would suggest, making the imperative to improve health care coverage and decrease medical errors a much more reasonable conclusion from such an argument than concluding that striving for universal coverage would not reduce mortality. Be that as it may, more problematic is that like many proponents of dubious medicine and science, McArdle cherry picked the literature, choosing one study that is an outlier and a thirty year old study from the RAND Corporation that showed what she wanted and in essence dismissed the rest. In refuting McArdle, by J. Michael McWilliams, MD, PhD, Assistant Professor of Health Care Policy and Medicine at Harvard Medical School and an associate physician in the Division of General Medicine at Brigham and Women’s Hospital points this out and speculates:

How many lives would universal coverage save each year? A rigorous body of research tells us the answer is many, probably thousands if not tens of thousands. Short of the perfect study, however, we will never know the exact number.

Indeed.

Policy implications

The very term “science-based medicine” was chosen intentionally. Medicine itself is not a science. It can’t be. There are too many other factors that influence treatments, including patient preference, resource allocation, and level of skill of individual practitioners, to name just a few. Our central thesis is that medicine should be based on science and that the best health care is based on science. My purpose in writing this post was not to advocate for any specific solution to the problem of the uninsured, although people who know me know my politics and my position on the matter. Rather, it is to lay out the science studying the question of the relationship between health insurance status and health outcomes. While we do frequently say that correlation does not necessarily equal causation, in some cases the correlation is so tight that it strongly suggests causation. This is one such case. Given that there is no ethical way ever to do a randomized clinical trial in which people are randomly assigned to be insured or uninsured, much as is the case for examining health outcomes between vaccinated and unvaccinated children, we are forced to rely on observational and quasi-experimental data. Those data support the hypothesis that providing health insurance to as many people as possible is associated with better health outcomes and that lack of insurance is associated with poorer health outcomes. That is the science. When someone like Mitt Romney claims that no one ever dies from lack of insurance in the U.S., he is demonstrably wrong.

What we as a society decide do with the results of the science examining this question is less a matter of science than it is of politics and policy.

Posted in: Politics and Regulation, Public Health

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299 Comments

  1. mousethatroared October 19, 2012

    The analogy of putting kittens in a microwave is kinda offensive. Sorry DugganSC – I know you are not usually inflammatory, so I will assume you just feel really emotional about this issue. But a woman faces a higher risk of financial instability, illness and even death due to pregnancy and delivery than she does using birth control or terminating an unintended pregnancy. At the very minimum one should be able to respect the risks that a woman faces in pregnancy and delivery.

    I am aggravated by a nation that rejects default organ donations but thinks they should be able to control a woman’s body to save a zygote.

  2. Narad October 19, 2012

    Narad…that would be my business..or would I have to spend it on what you tell me to spend it also?

    It is of course your business if you think the best thing to do with your money is to stick it in a mattress or, apparently, invest it in deliverable contracts in the full-stop market. However, you ought not to be surprised when your stream-of-consciousness pronouncements on macroeconomics then fail to generate much in the way of value in the marketplace of ideas.

  3. nybgrus October 19, 2012

    @Dr. Hall: I sit corrected then. I knew SBM was there, but was unclear with the exact nomenclature involved. And yes, I would love to make it, as would a very good friend of mine from Chicago Medical School. It would be an honor to meet you and the rest of the SBM authorship and whomever from the commentariat that shows up.

  4. rustichealthy October 20, 2012

    Just wanted to add one thing :) The Nazis, even if they were not the exact same brand of big centralized government and ‘majority rule’, of socialism, or communism, they were still a Big Centralized Goverment and..’majority rule’…(the ‘majority’ did vote in Hitler afterall). That’s the problem we (on the right, who’ve actually been accused of being Nazis?) have with Any big centralized government, that our forefathers tried to prevent, and why we’re not a straight democracy, we’re a Republic. And, once again, were meant to have the power to individual States and not to D.C. as our Big Centralized Government ruling us all. That’s being changed more and more in the last 50 years or so..and, more so in the last 4..alarmingly so. I think it was called ‘fundamental transformation’ isn’t that what Obama ran on? And now..’let’s finish the job we started’..And that would mean what exactly? what exactly is ‘fundamental transformation’ anyway? hmmmm

  5. rustichealthy October 20, 2012

    Actually, I believe FDR began it in a big way, LB Johnson advanced it with “the Great Society”..and it has continued to be advanced since…perhaps both sides (being wrong) but, nevertheless, it has. I didn’t consider Bush a true conservative actually… but there it is….and it’s mostly (true) conservatives and libertarians that are trying to reign it back. And, I know the raving will now be..how we don’t care for the poor, or for the free education for all, and sex change ops, or for someone’s bank book $, or for any and all things the left determines they need others to pay for…but, enough…is …enough.

  6. David Gorski October 20, 2012

    The Nazis, even if they were not the exact same brand of big centralized government and ‘majority rule’, of socialism, or communism, they were still a Big Centralized Goverment and..’majority rule’…(the ‘majority’ did vote in Hitler afterall).

    When called out on her B.S. that Nazis were “socialists,” note how RH retreats back to the silly and meaningless trope of, “Well, maybe Nazis weren’t ‘socialists,’ but they had a big centralized government; so it’s the same thing.” And, no, that’s not a straw man; that’s the implication of RH’s silly argument.

    Oh, and the majority didn’t vote for Hitler, at least not before he came to power in January 1933, after which the Nazis rigged future elections. In July 1932, the Nazis only got 37% of the vote, with the Social Democrats getting 22% and the Communists getting 14%. This was a huge gain, enough to make the Nazi Party the largest single party in the Reichstag, but not enough for a working majority because none of the other parties would form a coalition with the Nazis. Because there was no working majority (leading President Hindenberg to rule at times by emergency decree), another election was held in November 1932, and the Nazi share of the vote actually fell to 33%, with a corresponding increase for the Communist Party and the conservative German National People’s Party. The governing chaos resulting from this situation was what led to the jockeying and negotiations that ultimately ended up with Hindenberg forming a government in which Hitler was Chancellor almost three months later.

    Once Hitler got into power, it didn’t take him long to start crushing all opposition, and the rest, unfortunately, is history.

  7. nybgrus October 20, 2012

    The founding fathers actually did want a strong central government. There is very little question about that. However, the only way that they could actually have any government was to create a document that appeased the individual states and ensured individual rights deemed important by the people (aka the Bill of Rights, the first 10 amendmends to the constitution passed as a simultaneous referendum) which were significantly influenced by the peoples’ experiences during British rule and the revolutionary war.

    If you notice, rustic, the constitution is set up such that States can make whatever laws they want – so long as they do not conflict with Federal law. Federal law always trumps state laws no matter what. Which is why the medical marijuana laws in California are actually illegal and why Bush kept sending in DEA and other federal officials to bust medical marijuana users. It was a political ploy by the California advocates however, because they kept setting up the DEA to bust in on little old grannies smoking a joint for their cancer giving very bad PR to the fed. It was Obama that finally decided enough bad PR is enough, and simply look the other way. That said, if you look at the actual laws governing the prescription of marijuana by a physician, it follows the same guidelines as prescription of any other drug except that it is explicitly stated that while the California Medical Board and state/local police would not inquire into such prescriptions (unless they violated the general principles of responsible prescription) the Feds could come in and make trouble for you and there is nothing the state can do about it.

    So explain to me how you reconcile a constitution set up in an iron-clad way to ensure that federal decress always trump state decrees (regardless of which decree came first!) with your notion that the founding fathers did not want a strong and big centralized government?

    And furthermore, you demonstrate quite nicely exactly why many of us here are proponents of certain legislation in that majority rule does not mean the trampling of minority rights… yet seem to think that only applies to the minority rights you and your ideology agree with.

  8. nybgrus October 20, 2012

    @Dr. Gorski:

    Thanks for that info… I had always thought that Hitler had won control through a very standard and legitimate popular vote and then started running amok. I wish I had the time to go back to the archives of your alter ego and read up on that….

  9. rustichealthy October 20, 2012

    Well..fine Dr. Gorski…whatever the #s..37% is more than 22%..anyway..if the socialists and communists got together they’d have another Big Government rule..either/or..All Three are Big Government rule…or at least One centralized rule ..and yes Hitler was a dictator..or turned to be when he had the opportunity..that’s how it happens..Stalin became Dictator and murdered millions of Russians too..people don’t vote in evil dictators usually… (at least I hope not), but that’s what happens… and the only safeguard is a Republic, and a Limited one at that.

  10. rustichealthy October 20, 2012

    Nybrus..there Is a question about whether our forefathers wanted a strong federalized government. That’s pretty strange to claim…according to whom? they simply “appeased” the population? wow…and you’re OK with that?

    Well, atleast, a few of them thankfully didn’t..Thomas Jefferson being one. Well, he’s probably my favorite..who actually seemed to remember what they fought against…..Benjamin Franklin seemed to be another “Its a Republic, for as long as you can keep it”…I don’t care what some “allowed” or “appeased” or what you say you know in their minds what they meant they allowed or appeased..whatever happened..or should have happened, there is a terrible danger of Big Centralized government, overruling and trampling on everyone’s individual rights..Right now, my individual right is being trampled on by forcing me to pay for someone else’s health care..health care I don’t even care or choose for myself!..see? what about MY individual rights there? That’s the damned problem here. This centralized now healthcare run from the Feds is now forcing me to pay for something I don’t want ..for myself for one..or actually, for anyone else. Chemical toxic medicine is not my idea of health! I know I know, you believe you know better than I do for myself..I’m almost TOTALLY sure in your mind you think right now..that’s what ‘dictator’ type socialists seem to have a inclination to do. That’s how this all ties in.

  11. mousethatroared October 20, 2012

    RH – “The Nazis, even if they were not the exact same brand of big centralized government and ‘majority rule’, of socialism, or communism, they were still a Big Centralized Goverment and..’majority rule’…(the ‘majority’ did vote in Hitler afterall). That’s the problem we (on the right, who’ve actually been accused of being Nazis?)”

    Learn history – I already made one crack about Night of the Long Knives, that you were obviously not curious enough to look-up.

  12. rustichealthy October 20, 2012

    and, the federal decree of the Constitution, supposedly federal law, was meant to guard against states Not stepping on the individuals rights..I believe, once upon a time, we had.

  13. mousethatroared October 20, 2012

    Also – the idea of public education in the U.S. was started by the founding father’s who made it clear that literate citizens are needed to build a strong democracy. Freedom of the press is pointless, if only the elite can read.

    “”If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be.” Thomas Jefferson

  14. Chris October 20, 2012

    mousethatroared:

    Learn history

    I am amazed at how little history is known by the “health freedom” folks. There is one elsewhere who essentially wants the FDA abolished, and that there be no regulations (all the time claiming FDA approved drugs kill 100000 people per year), and then claims that the Elixir Sulfanilamide Tragedy only killed about six (it was over a hundred).

    The Night of Long Knives was just part of the way the Nazis got rid of their opposition. I recently read about it in Erik Larson’s In the Garden of the Beasts, which is about the American ambassador and his family during that time.

  15. mousethatroared October 20, 2012

    nybgrus and anyone else – As DG points out, there were problem’s with the democratic structure in Germany that lead to Hitler being able to take control. I don’t have as good a grasp of those issues as I would like, since my main German history was learned in a college German films class*. But I know enough to observe that the saying “those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it.” Is more than a warning about individual ethics and predijuce. One needs to look at how government structures and decisions failed, to prevent similar catastrophes. This is the reason that the groundless accusations of communism and fascism (Where labels are empty synonyms for “bad”) from either the left or right, drive me batty. They only get in the way of a nuanced understanding of what mechanisms failed that will help us identify actual problems in governments today.
    DG posts are great for that, and amazingly brief (considering the source ) but I am also left wanting more.
    *Our Professor lived in Germany as a child, immigrated to the U.S. after Hitler established control and then served as a translator for the U.S. military in Postwar Germany and liked to lecture on films within the context of history and culture, so it was an extremely good class for learning history, but still…

  16. lilady October 20, 2012

    (Not that RH will visit this site), but here it is:

    http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/hitler.html

    A few years ago, when my husband and his German colleague were guest lecturers at Donau University, Krems, Austria, we rented a car and drove to Prague. Prague is one of the most beautiful cities in Europe. We and our German friends spent an entire day “touring” sites within the Jewish Ghetto. Here we saw the many synagogues that were part of Jewish life before the Nazis invaded Czechoslovakia, 1939. More than 250,000 Jews in Czechoslavakia perished in concentration camps during World War II.

    http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/vjw/Prague.html

    When I was growing up in Brooklyn, New York, many my friends’ parents and grandparents had “identifying” numbers tattooed on their forearms. They were the “lucky” Jews, who survived the work camps and concentration camps. The “unlucky” Jews (6,000,000 of them), were those that were systematically exterminated by the Nazi regime and their collaborators.

  17. mousethatroared October 20, 2012

    nybrgus “If you notice, rustic, the constitution is set up such that States can make whatever laws they want – so long as they do not conflict with Federal law. Federal law always trumps state laws no matter what.”

    Well, just to be clear, unless those federal laws are deemed an unconstitutional infringement upon state rights. Checks and balances.

  18. mousethatroared October 20, 2012

    Darn editing, my little crack about David Gorski’s short posts was supposed to have a ;) indicating gentle ribbing. Doesn’t read right without the wink.

  19. Chris October 20, 2012

    mousethatroared, there is a reason that there are whole university courses devoted to Europe and WWII, along with a whole section of literature in both libraries and bookstores. There are lots of issues that can be studied, including the fractious nature of many governments on that continent. My daughter was thinking of taking a Europe in WWII class, but opted for history of the Americas before 1800 because it may actually be less complicated. ;-)

    If you ever get to Europe, be sure to visit a museum about that era. We visited one in Amsterdam and the one in Copenhagen. There was a definite lesson in how different they were from each other. (we were visiting relatives in both countries, including one who had spent time in a German camp as a child)

  20. rustichealthy October 20, 2012

    lillady..I’m sorry, but do I give any impression whatsoever? that I’m anti Jewish? I’m a christian, and the One I believe in was Jewish actually! :) so, I’m not sure where or why this constant implication, accusation, insinuation, that anyone not a leftist is antisemite and I RESENT IT…yet another socialist tactic to label anyone not socialist to be racist or antisemite or ‘greedy’ or hatefilled…seriously you all need to grow up.

  21. rustichealthy October 20, 2012

    and, lilady, don’t dismiss Stalin’s exterminating millions too..let’s not leave that out.. or are you OK with that?

  22. rustichealthy October 20, 2012

    mouse, honestly, I question the FDA’s need also..they’re passing meds untested, unproven, anyway!..as demonstrated with the constant horrendous results and lawsuits that follow. They’ve allowed gmos/ges in our foods without our knowledge or testing/proof that they’re ‘harmless’…we’re on our own apparently anyway.

  23. mousethatroared October 20, 2012

    @Chris – I’ve been to Europe, a couple times, but you know artists in Europe…we spend most of our available time gawking at art…There is a lifetime to study even before the Twentieth Century. One thing I know about Nazis and art, they hated most of the good stuff.

    If I get a chance to got to Europe again, I will have to be more well-rounded. Thanks for the links.

  24. David Gorski October 20, 2012

    Well..fine Dr. Gorski…whatever the #s..37% is more than 22%..anyway..if the socialists and communists got together they’d have another Big Government rule..either/or.

    So, now having been shown that, contrary to her historically and politically ignorant blather, Nazi-ism is not socialism and that, contrary to her historically ignorant right wing talking points, the Nazis never got a majority of the vote before they took power, RH retreats to even more historically ignorant speculations about the socialists and Communists getting together. Amusing. That’s why I love being so knowledgeable about World War II, Nazi-ism, and the Holocaust; it amuses me to point out just how dumb arguments of the sort that RH likes to make are.

    Seriously, RH. You need to read some history. Some real history. Jonah Goldberg doesn’t count.

  25. estockly October 20, 2012

    >>>>Which is why the medical marijuana laws in California are actually illegal and why Bush kept sending in DEA and other federal officials to bust medical marijuana users.

    Just to clarify, the medical marijuana laws are not illegal. California has chosen to not make possession of small amounts of marijuana a crime and to not make using marijuana for medical purposes a crime.

    The state has regulations and if you follows those regulations you are not violating state laws, but may be in violation of Federal law. That does not make the state law “illegal.” The states are not required to make possession and use a crime.

    It just happens that there are federal laws that make using marijuana a crime, but it’s not up to the states to enforce federal law.

    ES

  26. Chris October 20, 2012

    ES:

    It just happens that there are federal laws that make using marijuana a crime, but it’s not up to the states to enforce federal law.

    And that may be tested in at least one state in next month’s elections.

  27. François Luong October 20, 2012

    @Chris, mouse, and Dr. Gorski: A systematic problem in the Weimar Republic might have led to the rise of the NSDAP all the way to 1933, yes. But let’s not forget the terrible economic situation Germany was in after 1918, between the astronomical reparations demanded by the Treaty of Versailles and the German currency being terribly deflated. I remember one of my history professor telling us a bottle of Coke costing 5 billion marks in 1932. This was a situation that was already bad, but made even worse with the start of the Great Depression. In such times of despair, it’s not a surprise to see people flock to those who offer a nicer and simpler narrative. You can see a similar movement today, with the rise of the Golden Dawn in Greece, the score Marine Le Pen received in the first round of the French presidential election this year, and the Tea Party in the United States.

    It’s this notion of nicer narrative and this economical aspect that make me wonder about the popular success (and the predatory nature) of CAMs. On one hand, you have a narrative that strives toward truthfulness, even if it might be painful (using a very extreme example: You have cancer. We have this treatment, but we have to cut you open, and it only has a success rate of 75%. It might also give you an extra X number of years). On the other hand, you have the nicer and simpler narrative (you have cancer? No worries, we will heal you with my reiki touch of awesomeness and those needles. We’ll add moxibustion for good measure as well. Oh, you still died? Well, that’s because you didn’t believe hard enough). And this “alternative treatment” only costs you a fraction of what a medical treatment would cost.

    Personal anecdote: An ex-girlfriend took me to a naturopath a couple of years ago, to have a skin condition checked. I went, because I was curious and because I had no clue what a naturopath was. The naturopath only asked me questions about my diet and had a 5-minute look at the skin of my forearm. She told me I had a fungal infection and sold me a bottle of calendula and a brush. Total cost: Less than $100, without insurance (my HMO didn’t cover “alternative care” at the time), and she offered me a sliding scale. My actual skin condition? Just a very sensitive skin that gets very dry after a shower if I forget to apply lotion. It also happens to my father and my brother.

  28. mousethatroared October 20, 2012

    RH – It was Chris that mentioned the FDA – I’m the one that’s keeps harping on history and the Constitution. Lilady brought up the Holocaust links because we were talking about learning from the WWII history, I don’t see ANY implication that you are a nazi, only that you are sadly lacking in knowledge of the era.

  29. lilady October 20, 2012

    @ rustic health:

    ““The Nazis, even if they were not the exact same brand of big centralized government and ‘majority rule’, of socialism, or communism, they were still a Big Centralized Goverment and..’majority rule’…(the ‘majority’ did vote in Hitler afterall). That’s the problem we (on the right, who’ve actually been accused of being Nazis?)”

    I did NOT accuse you of being antisemitic; the first link I provided is an accurately-detailed, historically-correct documentation of Hitler’s rise to power in Germany. The monster Hitler was not elected by the “majority” as you seem to believe.

    The second link I provided, describes what I experienced during my visit to the Jewish Ghetto in Prague.

    BTW, I’m a Christian…and a Liberal…and I deeply resent the hijacking of my religion by the far-to-the-right wing of the Republican party, who are against universal health care.

    WWJD? (What Would Jesus Do?) He would be in favor of universal health care.

    “And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.” (King James Bible, Matthew 4:23)

  30. François Luong October 20, 2012

    I forgot my point to tie my comment to this post: without any insurance and proper regulation, quacks will be more accessible than doctors.

  31. rustichealthy October 20, 2012

    Francois..I have a comment on my site “Nip it in the Bud”…and one reference is the very very dry chapped hands I used to get…but since taking vitamins regularly and going organic it no longer occurs..here’s a link on it..Vit. A, C E and B complex deficiency perhaps…http://www.ehow.com/facts_4779968_home-remedies-dry-cracked-skin.html

    and you can try coconut oil if you like. just an fyi :)

    mouse I looked it up..Night of the Long Knives..I’m not saying they were compatible..obviously Hitler had other ideas and wanted it all…but they’re both still big dictating gov crushing the individual’s rights…that’s my point

  32. Chris October 20, 2012

    And I only mentioned the FDA in regards to not knowing history. And true to form RH is responding with the uneducated knee jerk platitudes.

    Mr. Luong, when I was in high school I spotted an English translation of Mein Kampf in the library. I checked it out and caused wide eyed wonder and guffaws of laughter as I read passages from it in the lunch room. The history of WWII in Europe does not start in the 1930s, it starts with the power struggles and political changes in the mid-19th century.

  33. François Luong October 20, 2012

    @Chris: You’re right, I’m omitting a lot of things in my comment, such as the issues of Pan-Germanism, colonialism and antisemitism, among other things. I limited my scope to 1918, the German Fall from Empire, to 1933 to have a look at the economic factors that might have lead a significant proportion of Germans (and Austrians) to turn to the far right. I’ve also omitted the case of Italy, which came out a victor of WWI, and where Mussolini came to power in 1922 (granted, through a coup).

  34. lilady October 20, 2012

    Here are articles about two *home-grown* antisemites…both of them Christian:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dearborn_Independent

    Henry Ford was a pacifist who opposed World War I, and he believed that Jews were responsible for starting wars in order to profit from them: “International financiers are behind all war. They are what is called the international Jew: German Jews, French Jews, English Jews, American Jews. I believe that in all those countries except our own the Jewish financier is supreme . . . here the Jew is a threat”. Ford also believed Jews, in their role as financiers, did not contribute anything of value to society.[1]

    In 1915, during World War I, Ford blamed Jews for instigating the war, saying “I know who caused the war: German-Jewish bankers.” Later, in 1925, Ford said “What I oppose most is the international Jewish money power that is met in every war. That is what I oppose – a power that has no country and that can order the young men of all countries out to death’”.

    And, the Ford-owned Dearborn Independent published the “The Protocols of the Elders of Zion”:

    The newspaper published The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, which was discredited by The Times of London as a forgery during theIndependent’s publishing run. The American Jewish Historical Society described the ideas presented in the magazine as “anti-immigrant, anti-labor, anti-liquor, and anti-Semitic.” In February 1921, the New York World published an interview with Ford, in which he said: “The only statement I care to make about the Protocols is that they fit in with what is going on.” During this period, Ford emerged as “a respected spokesman for right-wing extremism and religious prejudice,” reaching around 700,000 readers through his newspaper.[7

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Coughlin

    After the 1936 election, Coughlin increasingly expressed sympathy for the fascist governments of Hitler and Mussolini as an antidote to Communism.[27] He claimed that Jewish bankers were behind the Russian Revolution,[28] and that Russian Bolshevism was a disproportionately Jewish phenomenon.[29] On November 27, 1938, he said that “there can be no doubt that the Russian Revolution… was launched and fomented by distinctively Jewish influence.”[30]

    He promoted his controversial beliefs by means of his radio broadcasts and his weekly rotogravure magazine, Social Justice, which began publication in March, 1936.[31] During the last half of 1938, Social Justice reprinted in weekly installments the fraudulent, anti-semitic text The Protocols of the Elders of Zion.[32] Charles Tull states, “Originally published in Russia in 1905, the Protocols purports to be an account of a Jewish conspiracy to seize control of the world”.

    Seriously RH, get a grip, get a life, stay away from your right-wing websites…and starting reading some history books.

  35. François Luong October 20, 2012

    @RH: Not interested in remedies for dry skin. It doesn’t even affect my quality of life. I only used this personal anecdote to illustrate how an economic factor, that is to say how cheap CAM providers compared to doctors when insurance is not taken into consideration.

  36. rustichealthy October 20, 2012

    so Lillady…I suppose BO is one too :) right? according to you :)

  37. rustichealthy October 20, 2012

    and lilady..what were you insinuating with this?..

    (Not that RH will visit this site), but here it is:

    http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/hitler.html

    Please cut bull..I’m from NY too..and I don’t take too much of it from anyone..but, I especially have a problem with LW BS

  38. rustichealthy October 20, 2012

    lillady..WWJD? He would tell us to give of our own free will..not a Gov Dictatorship. Libs have hijacked actually christianity in this false self-delusion, that you’re giving when you vote for a Gov to take other’s money from them, and redistribute it…but, not of your own giving in fact. You’re Delusional.

  39. nybgrus October 20, 2012

    @mouse & estockly:

    Perhaps my language is not as precise as need be in legal terminology since that is certainly far from my field expertise. And yes, there are indeed checks and balances and both an implicit and explicit expectation for the federal government and state government to work together rather than against each other whenever possible. Additionally, there is a very complicated (well beyond my superficial understanding) set of rules which define the way in which federal case law can or cannot become binding precedent.

    However, the Supremacy Clause (Article VI, Clause 2) of the Constitution states that in all matters the federal law shall be the supreme law of the land and bind all citizens – regardless of state laws.

    If a state law is more restrictive than a federal law, then the state law takes precedence within the state and if a federal court (due to jurisdictional issues) tries a case wherein a relevant state law is more restrictive then the court is bound to apply the state law as if it were a court within the state. However, the reverse is not true. If a law in a state is less restrictive than a federal law the restriction of the federal law take precedence and are the basis of trial.

    In cases where the state and federal law are in direct opposition then the federal law will always trump the state law. This can actually be used to strike down a state law if it is brought to court. For example in Cooper v Aaron (1958) Arkansas tried to nullify desegregation (thus nullifying Brown v Board of Education) by passing a state law based on the theory of states rights. It was struck down by the SCOTUS continuing the precedent that federal law controlled and could not be otherwise changed by state law. In Edgar v Mite Corp (1982), the SCOTUS said explicitly “A state statute is void to the extent that it actually conflicts with a valid Federal statute” which is defined as situations where compliance with both state and federal law is impossible or “…state law stands as an obstacle to the accomplishment and execution of the full purposes and objectives of Congress…”

    It has even been established that federal and international treaties will always be supreme to any state concerns, even when the state claims that the action on the part of the federal government would abrogate states rights as guaranteed by the 10th Amendment (Missouri v Holland (1920)).

    There have has even been SCOTUS case law that the mere intent to act in a certain area by Congress triggers the Supremacy Clause and can nullify state law (California v ARC America Corp (1989)). Even more recent SCOTUS ruling further expounds upon federal supremacy by determining that a state law can be determined unconstitutional even if there is no relevant contradictory federal law but the “state law is an obstacle to the accomplishment and execution of Congress’s full purposes and objectives” (Crosby v National Foreign Trade Council (2000)).

    So, my legal understanding is extremely superficial and the likes of Jan Bellamy could certainly set me straight on this, but from my readings and understanding when it comes down to it States Rights is purely a function of the convenience of the federal government. States are allowed to do what they wish but only so far as it does not raise the ire of the fed – even to the point where there need not be a federal law in order to obviate a state right, but merely the “intent” of Congress. And States rights can be abrogated knowingly and intentionally as long as it serves the interest of Congress.

    So perhaps in a techincal sense “illegal” is not the correct term, but the California law is definitely in direct contradiction with the federal law and is thus nullified and unconstitutional. The fact that the state is not enforcing it and that the fed is no longer enforcing it and not enjoining the state to enforce it (which it can, if it so desired) is merely a matter of political convenience but does not bear on the legality of the law, whether it can actually stand, or the theoretical requirements of the state to nullify its own law and enforce the federal law. And yes, if Washington and Oregon pass the decriminalization laws they also will be “illegal” and be immediately technically nullified and the fed can either enforce the law itself or enjoin the state to do so.

    So even checks and balances isn’t quite the case, since Congress/the Fed can – at any time – abrogate any state law by defining it as necessary for the intent of congress. And all these precedents have been upheld since nearly the inception of the country. It was in Ware v Hylton that the fed struck down a state law using the Supremacy Clause… all the way back in 1796. As such, I still contend that our government – and the founding fathers – is one intended to be a strong centralized power with states rights thrown in as an appeasement for the sake of united the first 13 colonies (since we have precedent to ignore the 10th Amendment at the convenience of the federal government).

    Also, in California marijuana possession itself is not decriminalized. You still must have a valid prescription for it. It is the same as any other controlled substance – a person with a script for vicodin can possess it but a person without said script is in violation of federal narcotics laws.

    (I did not include the copious links to reference all the case law since it would hold up in moderation and I figured anyone interested could just google the cases)

  40. mousethatroared October 21, 2012

    “So, my legal understanding is extremely superficial and the likes of Jan Bellamy could certainly set me straight on this, but from my readings and understanding when it comes down to it States Rights is purely a function of the convenience of the federal government. States are allowed to do what they wish but only so far as it does not raise the ire of the fed – even to the point where there need not be a federal law in order to obviate a state right, but merely the “intent” of Congress. And States rights can be abrogated knowingly and intentionally as long as it serves the interest of Congress.”

    Well, I wish we had a lawyer it then. because I’m remembering the recent Supreme Court case where the states were opposing Obama Care. It was only narrowly upheld when the court observed that the fine was actually a tax, which was within the fed’s power. It’s my understanding that just as individuals have rights under the Constitution, so do states and the Supreme Court can strke down laws that it decides are inconstitutional, regardless of the demand of congress.

  41. mousethatroared October 21, 2012

    RH – you missed my point of Night of the Long Knives. It was not that the Nazi Regime and the German Communists didn’t get along. It was that the ruling political party sent out death squads and executed 85+ political opponents, terrifying the members of the courts and other political offices into supporting the regime.

    You keep talking about being oppressed and having your rights trampled. For an oppressed party, the right’s political leaders are surprisingly alive, at large in the community, in possession of huge campaign budgets and healthy media outlets.

    I guess they don’t make oppression like they used to…unless you’re Syrian.

    You are not being oppressed. You disagree with the current laws, you have a right to speak about that, you have a right to disagree at the ballot box. That is not oppression. That is a fair representative government.

    If you truly had a commitment to, something like lowering the deficit, you would educate yourself. Seek to find the most efficient ways to lower the deficit, use your speech to win people over to your ideas and vote for representatives that supported those ideas.

    Instead, because you have no idea about the real issues or real solutions, you throw around groundless accusations of socialism, fascism and oppression, which only someone who already agrees with you and takes a similar shallow approach would believe. In addition, you vote based on those groundless claims of oppression, socialism, fascism without any real idea of which representatives would best accomplish your goals.

    Your unwillingness to challenge yourself mentally is crippling you in the war of ideas. Don’t you think you can do better?

  42. mousethatroared October 21, 2012

    FL – Excellent points about the population response to economic depression!

    Lilady – I meant to thank you for the links earlier…ask for information and you shall recieve!
    Also, many of us in Michigan would prefer to leave Henry Ford’s daker side unexamined. He did a lot of brilliant things and his approach to worker pay was very economically insightful, but his antisemitism, very sad.

    Just goes to show you, never trust someone because they are brilliant or make alot of good decisions. Question whether they have good logic and evidence for their position.

    Okay, I’m done with my Sunday morning sermon, now. Where’s the donuts?

  43. rustichealthy October 21, 2012

    mouse.. I agree I have to vote (so far) in order for change. Unfortunately, now that the very ambiguous 2400 page!! HCR Law is already passed by one majority party and prez, (not reading it themselves before the fact:) it will be difficult to change, but I’m hoping it happens. I still resent being accused of being greedy and racist and evil, because I don’t want to meet someone else’s Demands… believing in my own, and everyone else’s freedom to do with what They so choose with Their money and property. I get that, (not being rich myself)…I respect Freedom more. Especially the b.s. of WWJD?, as if .. somehow some think they’re doing by Them demanding and Taking other’s money and freedom through government laws for Their own gain and so choosing. I’m amazed how many people in this country can’t see that…but, it’s an easy tactic to play on…with the “you owe me” crowd. I thought lilady was insinuating I was antisemetic too..with her ‘holocaust’ link as if I were denying it. Then she brings up how 2 other so called ‘christians’ were antisemetic..so therefore what? see..anyway..I’m tired of this now..too..I’m making Sunday pancakes..with organic ingredients of course..where I rather spend my $ on my personal ‘healthcare’ in healthy non toxic foods..that I now have to defend :)

  44. lilady October 21, 2012

    RH…Is this you? (From your website that you referred to “Nip It In the Bud”)

    http://www.nipitinthebudusa.org/about.html

  45. mousethatroared October 21, 2012

    RH – I agree I have to vote (so far) – There you go again…

  46. rustichealthy October 21, 2012

    No lillady..my nic has my site..sorry…http://gethealthybehappy.yolasite.com/ and in the ‘Comment/New Findings:) there’s a comment titled “Nip it in the Bud”.. http://gethealthybehappy.yolasite.com/comments-and-new-findings/nip-it-in-the-bud- among other comments :)

  47. lilady October 21, 2012

    Oh I made a mistake…by not clicking on rustic health’s name.

    Look what I found…

    http://gethealthybehappy.yolasite.com/comments-and-new-findings/barking-up-the-wrong-tree

    Time for me to post this again. Woof, woof, grrrrrr….

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvw-9XEyPKk

    I just bet that RH home-schools her kids as well, so why isn’t she aware of 20th century history?

  48. nybgrus October 21, 2012

    @mouse:

    Yes, the fed also has limits as to what it can do. There are certain laws that are not explicitly or traditionally something the fed does and all laws must be constitutional. In the case of the PPACA (my understanding at least) is that the states raised a challenge because… well, it doesn’t matter why – they can and that is their right. However, the fed and the SCOTUS then review it and can decide if it is, in fact, unconstitutional and if not then can decide under which legal standing or precedent the law can remain. The SCOTUS in this case decided that the preferred way to uphold the constitutionality of the law was to call it a tax and leave it at that. However, once again from my understanding, the SCOTUS could have just as easily said “Congress has decided that national health policy is in the best interest of the government, the people, and the desires of Congress” and the law would have stood on the Supremacy clause alone.

    Of course people and states can always challenge a law – they may say that it is unconstitutional, or not within the purview of Congressional legislative capacity, or anything else really. But that doesn’t change the Supremacy Clause nor the case law precedent that the fed always has the right to the last word, no matter what. For some things they just get challenged and need to find ways to uphold what they want to do.

  49. mousethatroared October 21, 2012

    Okay – nybgrus, I think I’ve got you better the second (or is it the third) time around. I see what you mean, but I’ll have to do some reading before I whole-heatedly agree.

  50. rustichealthy October 21, 2012

    lilady..I did teach my kids this…

    You’re Not Giving by Taking Other People’s Money. That’s Not Giving …

    it seems to be something “WWJD” lefty’s haven’t as yet learned and that’s what I’m here to teach as well! :)

  51. François Luong October 21, 2012

    @RH: Funny that you should be harping about this country being a Republic. Here is something that you didn’t teach your kids, the notion of public good, which is where the word “republic” takes its etymology in the first place (“res publica,” the public thing). Making sure people have access to health care AND are not bankrupted by it has nothing to do with socialism, it’s basic republicanism, something that even Richard Nixon understood with the Comprehensive Health Insurance Act. Now, are you going to call Nixon a socialist too?

  52. mousethatroared October 21, 2012

    FL – Nixon went to China, so clearly he’s a Communist. ;)

  53. rustichealthy October 21, 2012

    Actually, I don’t know what to call ‘moderates’ on the right…not as bad as left..but, not conservatives either..like Bush also.

    In any case..the lesson stands…repeat after me…I’m Not Giving by Taking Other People’s Money. That’s Not Giving

    and..sorry again, but, I don’t have a bank account..should I be able to demand you to give me one..or only if I had one, got sick, and so you then pay for me to keep mine…but, only if I have one..and if I get sick…otherwise..tough luck…funny how particular lw laws are…Obamacare is the Law of the land..except 100′s of unions and towns and companies are Exempt!..the illogical lunacy of the left knows no bounds it seems. :)

  54. rustichealthy October 21, 2012

    FL yes ..the public good..except for the crony voters exempted themselves from Giving to the Public Good..hmmmm: ) and..I believe Congress is exempt from ‘giving to the public good’! let’s not forget them.

  55. lilady October 21, 2012

    Folks, this is the science illiterate who gets her education about preventive health from Livestong.com and Mercola.

    This same science illiterate is enthralled with bee pollen, “alkaline balanced diets” and blackstrap molasses.

    Ditto, for “natural cures” for herpes, natural cures for pertussis (Vitamin C!) following the advice of Dr. Suzanne Humpries…who in turn…is following Hilary Butler’s Vitamin C cure for pertussis. Rather than prescribed antibiotics…the science illiterate has “natural cures”.

    Ditto for “natural cures” for cancer; she’s a fan-girl of Burzynski and Gerson.

    “lilady..I did teach my kids this…

    You’re Not Giving by Taking Other People’s Money. That’s Not Giving …

    it seems to be something “WWJD” lefty’s haven’t as yet learned and that’s what I’m here to teach as well!”

    Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

    For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

    But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

    When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

    For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

    And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

    -St. Paul, Letter to the Corinthians, I Corinthians 13:8-13, St. James Bible

  56. weing October 21, 2012

    @lilady,

    “Folks, this is the science illiterate who gets her education about preventive health from Livestong.com and Mercola.”

    Much as I dislike to, I have to point out that this is an ad hominem argument. Just because she knows squat about medicine, does not mean that what she argues is just as stupid. It may very well be, but not for this reason.

  57. François Luong October 21, 2012

    @RH: “the crony voters [who] exempted themselves from Giving to the Public Good“? Do you mean the infamous 47% who pay no income taxes? Like those on Social Security, an entitlement they paid into for 50 years of arduous work, which in most cases is not even enough to ensure a proper retirement? Or those in the military, who are giving their lives in the service of their country? Like Dr. Hall, whom you have accused of being a socialist, and yet served for years in the US Air Force? Well, RH, how dare you invoke the notion of “public good” when you are insulting those who are making sacrifices in the service of others? Like nybgrus when he was a resident, who despite an extremely low pay, would work 48-hour shift to make the lives of others better and yet, despite the grueling and thankless job, has not given up to cynicism and still believes in basic human decency? Because basic human decency is what is at stake here, and you have demonstrated none. You are acting like an embarrassed millionaire. I therefore refuse to call you or anyone in the Republican Party a “conservative”, because to do so would tie you to the honorable tradition of Thomas Hobbes, Edmund Burke, Otto Von Bismarck, and Charles De Gaulle. You people are barbarians who have no interest in the fabric of society, but in sucking its marrow dry. For what matters, I am not an American citizen. I am still, after 12 years, a French citizen. But I still pay my taxes to the Federal Government and the State of California. This is not my country, but I would gladly pay more taxes if this means you people get a decent healthcare system. Because I believe a society should be judged by how it treats its weakest members, and you, RH, have shown nothing but contempt for those.

  58. Narad October 21, 2012

    In any case..the lesson stands…repeat after me…I’m Not Giving by Taking Other People’s Money. That’s Not Giving

    “Stands”? It’s meaningless. Do you, as a matter of self-consistency, also abstain from voting, which is an inherently coercive act?

    and..sorry again, but, I don’t have a bank account..should I be able to demand you to give me one..or only if I had one, got sick, and so you then pay for me to keep mine…but, only if I have one..and if I get sick…otherwise..tough luck…funny how particular lw laws are…

    Perhaps you would like to try restating this in English. Nobody particularly cares about your personal financial incompetence, which would seem to be severe in that conducting transactions with money orders seems to be demanded, i.e., paying to use your own funds.

  59. lilady October 21, 2012

    Hardly ad hominen, weing…just follow from the top of the thread RH’s comments about “medicine”.

    “My personal ‘healthcare’ is vitamins vs. vaccine, less carcinogens and more vitamins to curve cancer rates.”

    “lillady..asthma is helped by vitamins..C, omegas..in my own experience having got off of 2 inhalers and 2 meds including steroids :/…most childhood diseases are vitamin deficiency…causing low immunity.”

    “For medicinal purposes, no I’m not familiar with how contraceptives will work for it, and we all pay for doctor visits don’t we…in any case that would be an exception to the rule, and could easily be done through doctor and insurance company I’m sure, not to make it a blanket Demand by all for “unintended pregnancies”… and, going to a catholic university, expecting them to go against their own belief and policy for her (who chose to go there) or anyone else is ‘attacking’ the freedom of one’s religious belief..actually.”

    “Won’t you all love the watchful eye of socialism when it takes full root, making sure you spend every penny you get on approved items only? let’s see..drugs are good, contraceptives (of course), mercury filled lightbulbs…chemical filled foods,..what a life:)”

    “ok..I’ll go now, going shopping…what can I buy..is there a socialist approved list out? :) because, I don’t want to spend my $ on vitamins and organic food..so I can pay for your chemical drugs and bank accounts. :)

    “mouse, honestly, I question the FDA’s need also..they’re passing meds untested, unproven, anyway!..as demonstrated with the constant horrendous results and lawsuits that follow. They’ve allowed gmos/ges in our foods without our knowledge or testing/proof that they’re ‘harmless’…we’re on our own apparently anyway.”

    I think you will find that RH interjected “politics” into this thread with her ad hominem attacks about posters here accusing us of being Nazis, Socialists and Liberals. I provided her with links to a historical correct website (The Jewish Virtual Library), to check out how Adolph Hitler came to power…he did not have the majority in the Reichstag.

    She then accused me of labeling her as antisemitic and then provided us with this “Confession of Faith”

    “lillady..I’m sorry, but do I give any impression whatsoever? that I’m anti Jewish? I’m a christian, and the One I believe in was Jewish actually! :) so, I’m not sure where or why this constant implication, accusation, insinuation, that anyone not a leftist is antisemite and I RESENT IT…yet another socialist tactic to label anyone not socialist to be racist or antisemite or ‘greedy’ or hatefilled…seriously you all need to grow up.”

    No weing…I think you are directing your comments about launching an ad hominen argument to the wrong poster.

  60. weing October 21, 2012

    @lilady,

    I honestly cannot follow her arguments. If you understand them, then more power to you.

  61. lilady October 21, 2012

    I’ve been following her arguments weing and her type of “medicine”…based on her spectacular science illiteracy.

    She’s as ignorant as they come…about medicine, about American and world history. She’s also clueless about politics…so obvious, because she confuses repeatedly fascism, communism, socialism and Liberalism.

    Here’s Federal income Tax Rates in the United States for the past century and its effect on the economy. Except for the past few years, we have had a “Progressive Income Tax Rate” and there is a reason for labeling Non-Progressive Income Tax Rates as “Regressive”.

    http://www.businessinsider.com/history-of-tax-rates-2012-5?op=1

  62. weing October 21, 2012

    Thanks for the link. I will check it out. My expertise is medicine. I look upon all political and economic solutions with great suspicion. The ACA is a work in progress. There is no way Romney could get rid of it if he wins. I don’t think either party has a solution to our problems as there is no utopia. Hopefully, we will muddle through again.

  63. rustichealthy October 22, 2012

    Francois..no..I mean..all of these unions, towns, companies…

    http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/2900475/posts

  64. rokujolady October 22, 2012

    I recently had a conversation with someone of the more conservative bent whose opinions I respect but don’t often agree with (although we both have a soft spot for giant multinationals). He named some people on various forms of public assistance whom he knew had relatives who could afford to help them out. He asked me ‘Do you want your tax dollars to pay for them to mooch off of the system? Their relatives are gaming the system by not helping them out.’ I said ‘Sure. I don’t mind if my tax dollars go to them, even if they are mooching off the system.’ Why? Several reasons, and this all applies to healthcare too. Firstly, there are always going to be freeloaders. You’ll never weed them all out without weeding out people who “deserve” the assistance too. I asked this friend what rule could possibly be applied to the welfare system such that these particular people could be denied service but a similar case, say where someone had been disowned by their wealthy family, would be accepted?
    To me, the risk that my tax dollars might pay for a few moochers is worth it because there are people I know who’ve used public assistance who needed the safety net. I would want it to be there , and I think anyone who can admit that they don’t have control over everything in their life would like to have it there.
    And on those lines, rustic, when you do something dumb and get injured (and we all do something dumb every once in a while.) to the point where vitamins just won’t pay the stupid tax, and the jar of quarters that you’ve been stashing under your bed because you’re too paranoid to have a bank account runs out, I would be happy to have my tax dollars go towards keeping you alive and reasonably comfortable. I will even pay for the jello that they give you at this hospital. I don’t know or even particularly like you, but in order to reap the benefits of an advanced society which gives me a chance to do the most I can with my life, I have to give something back.
    PS. Did you just claim to know more about Christianity than the Jesuits? LOL.
    PSS. Render unto Caesar…

  65. rustichealthy October 22, 2012

    :) We’ve had a majority of Left since 2006..and spending increased more and more, Trillions added to the debt..shouldn’t that have affected the economy by now? Shouldn’t that have helped the poor? No.it Increased the poor! ..I just heard a poor dear woman say she wasn’t happy with BO who she voted for …what happened to it? Why wasn’t the UE affected by it? Lil? how do you explain the awesome economy we had when Bush cut taxes on all for all those years …and Everyone benefitted from it, and the Miserable economy we had for the last 4 years despite LW micromanagement? still blaming the right? :) Nevermind what those charts say..what do the last 12 years say? Cutting taxes and atleast Less spending..until the LW took control, resulted in great economy, Increased Spending resulted in worst economy. You all are either that Stupid, or that hell-bent on destroying America. I have to end this..sorry ..to hear you all is making me sick :)

  66. BillyJoe October 22, 2012

    “Because I believe a society should be judged by how it treats its weakest members, and you, RH, have shown nothing but contempt for those.”

    The irony is that she is one of those weakest members.

  67. rustichealthy October 22, 2012

    Billy, us ‘weakest members’ are even More Weak since the Big Spending of LWr’s in D. C. in last 4 years.

  68. rustichealthy October 22, 2012

    And, just a ‘reminder’ ..it was a LW Majority Congresswoman Speaker who said..it was “Unpatriotic” to vote against Bailing Out Rich Corporation Cronies! Remember?? lol please spare me

  69. rustichealthy October 22, 2012

    ((Just because she knows squat about medicine, does not mean that what she argues is just as stupid.)) thanks for that weing :)

  70. mousethatroared October 22, 2012

    RH – Rewriting history again. The AWESOME economy is what we call a bubble. The debt didn’t start building when Pres. Obama came into office.

  71. rustichealthy October 22, 2012

    mouse..no it didn’t..it started more so when the LW took majority 2007/8 and doubled spending..from 1.6 Trillion the last budget of a RW majority ..to 3 Trillion..and 3 Trillion each year since..in addition another 4 Trillion in 4 years of Obama.

  72. rustichealthy October 22, 2012

    And..what you call a ‘bubble’ is what we call an Awesome Economy!..housing burst, but, that was a bunch of Bad banking policies..oh yes..brought on by ..Fannie and Freddie?… but, even that didn’t have to burst the economy..certainly not keep it spiraling since..and still, why didn’t 4 Trillion $ added spending turn it around? and still didn’t help the middleclass Or the poor! A whole Lot of “Misspending” there.. and these are the brainiacs of brainiacs right? that we so ‘trust’ stewardship with and so ‘greedy’ not to trust our money with. :)

  73. mousethatroared October 22, 2012

    The Awesome economy was based on credit. Housing burst, Banks wouldn’t loan money. Businesses go under without money. Even the conservative economists would wince at your misrepresentation of the situation. You’re also neglecting to mention TWO wars that might have something to do with the debt that Bush and the Congress accumulated.

    RH -Iif you have a good argument for your beliefs, why would you have to misrepresent the facts?

  74. mousethatroared October 22, 2012

    By the way – The Automotive bail-out helped this middle-class person AND probably over a million other people in this country. It’s likely that it helped you. Because those kind of job loses and the resulting lost tax revenue and additional pension revenue would have had wide ranging consequences to the whole country.

  75. weing October 22, 2012

    @MTR,

    That’s it. Hit her with facts. All we can do is examine the data. I still don’t understand why they won’t bring back Glass-Steagall.

  76. rustichealthy October 22, 2012

    2 wars..that is true..but that’s one ‘expense’ the Federal gov is supposed to be there for. Not bailing out corporate buds, or buying votes.

  77. mousethatroared October 22, 2012

    weing “I still don’t understand why they won’t bring back Glass-Steagall.”

    Me either.

  78. François Luong October 22, 2012

    @weing: “That’s it. Hit her with facts.” Sadly, she’s just going to ignore them. Or misread them. Or call them socialist.

  79. Narad October 22, 2012

    that we so ‘trust’ stewardship with and so ‘greedy’ not to trust our money with.

    “Our” money? L-rd knows that when I’m looking for macroeconomic analysis, the first place I turn is to someone with no assets.

  80. rustichealthy October 22, 2012

    well..why don’t you ‘share’ some of yours with me Narad :)

  81. rustichealthy October 22, 2012

    right Lil? Give and it shall be given to you? :)

  82. mousethatroared October 22, 2012

    @FL – Ancient Painter Wisdom – One does not straighten a painting due to the believe that the painting will learn to be straighter. One straightens for the brief satisfaction of seeing a level painting.

  83. lilady October 22, 2012

    I suggest we all ignore RH, now…maybe she’ll just “go away”.

  84. DWATC October 22, 2012

    Does anyone want to go over all the various socialist programs we have in the country, and how they are the reason RH is in business? Socialism isn’t bad, and majority of the programs in the US are socialist. I always find it humorous how it’s condemned yet they rely on them for many many things…oh and how they like to use it interchangeably with communism.

  85. windriven October 22, 2012

    @weing and mouse

    ” I still don’t understand why they won’t bring back Glass-Steagall.”

    Three reasons:
    1. It makes perfect sense and is therefore impossible given the current political climate;
    2. Banks make far more in investment banking than in commercial banking;
    3. Banking has an extraordinarily powerful lobbying presence; essentially they pay for laws that suit them.

    Larry Kotlikoff (BU economist) has a wonderful riff on limited purpose banking:

    http://www.kotlikoff.net/sites/default/files/LimitedPurposeBanking1-27-09_0.pdf

    I’m figuring that we’ll have a sensible health care system about 37 minutes after the return of Glass or upon the ambient temperature in hell reaching 0C, whichever comes last.

  86. rustichealthy October 22, 2012

    ?? I’m sorry…do I have go to D.C. and Demand you get me a bankaccount? So, when I get sick, I won’t have to use it?

  87. mousethatroared October 22, 2012

    Windriven – ha! Silly me, I was looking for a GOOD reason why. Thanks for the link.

  88. rustichealthy October 22, 2012

    O did I get that one wrong? That one’s for the well off ..I get it. :)

  89. rustichealthy October 22, 2012

    and, so, if that ‘credit’ economy was the reason for the burst, I wonder what kind of burst that 16,000,000,000,000 ( 16 Trillion) $ “credit” bill we have in D.C. will cause.hmmmm ;)

  90. windriven October 22, 2012

    @mouse

    “I was looking for a GOOD reason why.”

    Laughter is really the only reasonable way to approach some of these issues because the alternative would involve opening an artery.

    I’ve avoided this thread until now because Dr. Gorski (quite reasonably) seems to want to keep SBM at some distance from partisan politics. When I think about the issues involved with health care delivery, insurance, and the political process I just want to shriek incoherently.

    I was just in D.C. for the American Society of Anesthesiologists annual meeting. While there I strolled down to the National Mall, past the Washington Monument to the memorials for veterans of WWII, Korea and Vietnam. It is a profoundly humbling experience. The memorials are just a short walk from both the White House and the Capitol. It is a measure of just how callow our politicians are that the likes of Eric Cantor and Chuck Schumer can argue who has the bigger schlong in the shadow of such sacrifice.

  91. rustichealthy October 22, 2012

    Just so you know also, this ‘weakest’ member has to pay more for gas (because of lw policies) food (because gas is so high because of lw policies), and now healthcare, because I have to pay for someone else’s bank account, 25 year olds who should be out of the house, and contraceptives for other’s sex life. ;) So, I have very little left over for a bank account to save for when I get sick and won’t have to use it! ;)

  92. Narad October 22, 2012

    The memorials are just a short walk from both the White House and the Capitol.

    You didn’t hit the Hahnemann statue?

  93. windriven October 22, 2012

    @Narad

    I did, actually. But I paid it no more attention than to note that the pigeons were paying him his due.

  94. François Luong October 23, 2012

    Dr. Gorski: It’s now obvious that rustichealthy’s comments are under moderation. While they were entertaining thanks to their sheer stupidity, I wonder about the use of letting them appear, at least on this thread. There is nothing constructive left to say on this thread. The conversation derailed long ago. It seems a little cruel to let it go on, since all we are doing is making fun of rustichealthy’s talking points. Surely, there will be another opportunity to talk about insurance policy and science at a later point.

  95. mousethatroared October 23, 2012

    FL – i believe the SBM policy is to post all comments except in the case of extreme and obvious trolling and sockpuppets. What makes you think that RH’s comments are gong through moderation? Did I miss something.

    Windriven – agreed, best to laugh, so you don’t cry.

    RH – “O did I get that one wrong? That one’s for the well off ..I get it. :) ” I don’t understand this sentence. Are you saying that understanding the financial crisis is for the well-off? Are you saying joking about Glass-Steagall is for the well-off? You clearly have internet access, checking-out Wikipedia doesn’t cost extra.

    Really, Really, Really. When looking for solutions. Don’t start with your preferred solution then make up the “evidence” to fit. You will never find a good solution that way.

    Start with a good definition of the problem, look at the evidence, formulate possible solutions, compare them against the evidence, then select the best solution.

    This should not be a left wing/right wing thing. It’s understandable that different parties would support different solutions in a complicated problem. But any valid solutions should be compatible with history and the evidence.

    It’s NOT acceptable when a supposed solution relies on rewriting history or ignoring evidence to look good. Why is it not acceptable? Because it doesn’t work. It doesn’t work in engineering, it doesn’t work in economics, it doesn’t work in home budgets, it doesn’t work in medicine, it doesn’t even work in ART and that is saying something.

    Really, RH, you must know this to be true. You wouldn’t try to fix your bike by deciding the tires need replacing when the evidence shows the chain is broken. You wouldn’t ignore the broken chain, because you prefer replacing tires.

    Why would you ignore the history of the financial crisis?

    Okay, lecturing over. If my numerous comments haven’t convinced you to educate yourself before formulating an opinion, then I doubt any additional ones will do the trick.

  96. rustichealthy October 23, 2012

    mouse..when I said: O did I get that one wrong? That one’s for the well off ..I get it. :)

    I was referring to the hc provision that one can keep their bank account without going bankrupt in order to have health care coverage. In other words, complicated as it is that lw seem to make things, one can keep their savings (if they have one…those who are able to have one :) more than likely well-off already! So, kiddingly, I was asking for a bank account, so I can have it when I get sick..so I don’t have to use …o…nevermind .. it’s complicated :)

  97. François Luong October 23, 2012

    @mouse: rustichealthy’s comments don’t appear in my RSS feed at all. When I visit the SBM site, they also appear after I have read everyone else’s comments.

  98. mousethatroared October 23, 2012

    Okay – yeah, I haven’t been checking in enough to see when things pop-up and I don’t do RSS feed. But could be her comments are going through moderation. But I don’t think I’ve ever seen SBM stop posting someone’s comments on a particular topic. All I’ve seen is extremely rare but open bans on particular posters who are abusive or engage in solely trollish posting over an extended period of time.

    Personally, I’m thinking this thread has just about reached the end of it’s lifespan. Things are heating up over in “American Medical Students Associate, etc” though :)

  99. Chris October 26, 2012

    RH:

    So, I have very little left over for a bank account to save for when I get sick and won’t have to use it!

    RH:

    So, kiddingly, I was asking for a bank account, so I can have it when I get sick..so I don’t have to use …o…nevermind .. it’s complicated

    RH:

    I’ve been to Europe, a couple times,

    One wonders how she paid for the plane ticket and everything else that goes with international travel.