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I Never Meta Analysis I Really Like

David Gorski recently pointed out that Science Based Medicine is going on five years. Amazing. That there would be so much to write about day after day comes as a surprise to me. Somehow I vaguely thought that ‘controversies’ would be resolved. Pick a SCAM, contrast the SCAM with reality as best we understand it, and, once the SCAM was found wanting, it would be abandoned. Why would rational, thoughtful people persist in the pursuit of irrational behavior, contradicted by the universe?

Ha. More the fool me. I would never have guessed that these SCAMs are harder to kill than Dracula (at least one version of Dracula). Stake them and back they come*.

I have tried to avoid repeating repeating information found in prior posts by myself and others, in part because I am lazy and in part because, well, I have said it before. Just look it up. I have come to realize (all too slowly) that each blog entry should be  self contained and that much of the old material is lost in the corn maze (an punning homophone) that is WordPress. Reading my second favorite computer reinforces the realization that each post often needs to be an island universe, complete in itself.

Medicine is difficult. At least I find it difficult. You have to first come up with a cause of the symptoms, understand the underlying physiology and then try and determine the best course of therapy. I have it easy in Infectious Diseases, a much more binary specialty. Patients are either infected or not, I have a therapy or not and I either cure them or not. Not a lot of wiggle room in the treatment of, say endocarditis or pneumonia, and very little in the way of bias and placebo to obfuscate the therapy. Or so I would think.

Much of the rest of medicine is not as clear cut. As a physician there are multiple ways to assess the potential efficacy of a therapy. One is a definitive randomized placebo controlled trial. Those do not seem to occur as often this decade as in prior times when giants walked the earth. Or so my faulty memory suggests.

Another way is to try and master the literature, a futile endeavor. In two areas of medicine I have more than passing knowledge: Infectious Diseases and SCAM’s. The nice thing about having a breadth and depth of reading is you can understand where new articles fit into an overall picture. What was the patient population studied, what were the weaknesses of the study, how applicable is the information to other populations? The downside of such expertise is I have to rely on the kindness of strangers in other areas of medicine, since I know next to nothing.

The breadth of knowledge has also made sources of information that I once trusted much more suspect. Popular media? No way. Newspapers and magazines so often get it wrong in areas of my expertise that I no longer trust them in areas where I know nothing (just about everything else).

Meta-analysis? Nope. Talk about disillusion. I used to rely on meta-analysis, but they are worse than laws and sausages, ceasing to inspire respect in proportion as we know how they are made. I still like the meta-analysis and systemic reviews as a nice overview of a clinical topic, but, for reasons we will see, I am hesitant to draw any therapeutic conclusions from any meta-analysis.

And the worst source is an anecdote. If I have said it once, I have said it once, the three most dangerous words in medicine are “in my experience.” I had always though of it in the context of physicians deciding on a therapeutic intervention, not so much from the patients perspective. I realized that for patients that is often the primary way they deciding to try a therapy, especially a SCAM therapy.

What would you do if you were a highly intelligent intellectual at one of the top newspapers and were curious about acupuncture? With the research capacity of, say, the Chicago Sun Times, you could get the skinny on any topic, right? Or instead, you could ask you readers if you should get acupuncture. Sigh. A microcosm of why, compared to SBM bloggers, Sisyphus  had it easy.

That method of seeking medical advice has been around since 480 AC as mentioned by Herodotos:

‘They had a very practical habit: on the marketplace passer-by’s give
advice to the patient about their ailment, in which case they can sometimes rely on personal experience or take advantage of someone else who suffered from the same symptoms. Nobody can just pass by without saying anything. It is obligatory to ask the patient what ails him. They bury their corpses in honey and mourn in the same way as in Egypt.’ (Thanks to Cees Renckens for the quote).

The more things change, the more they stay the same. Except for the honey part.

Everything I distrust about medical reporting seems, of late, to have found a home in the Atlantic.  Check out the headline: Biological Implausibility Aside, Acupuncture Works by Lindsay Abrams.

Really? News to me. I tend towrds the opinion that if a process is biologically impossible, then it is more likely that a) any positive results are likely to be spurious and due to bias and b) if bias is removed,  the old double blind placebo controlled trial, then most effects will fade to zero.

It often appears that journals and magazines do not even bother to read their own reports. A scant two years ago the Atlantic reported on the work of John Ioannidis and why most of the medical literature is suspect

“Much of what medical researchers conclude in their studies is misleading, exaggerated, or flat-out wrong. So why are doctors—to a striking extent—still drawing upon misinformation in their everyday practice?”

and that in clinical trials

“the range of errors being committed was astonishing: from what questions researchers posed, to how they set up the studies, to which patients they recruited for the studies, to which measurements they took, to how they analyzed the data, to how they presented their results, to how particular studies came to be published in medical journals.

This array suggested a bigger, underlying dysfunction, and Ioannidis thought he knew what it was. “The studies were biased,” he says. “Sometimes they were overtly biased. Sometimes it was difficult to see the bias, but it was there.” “

One of the epiphanies of my understanding in how to approach the medical literature was when I discovered the works of Dr. Ioannidis. It would appear that Lindsay Abrams didn’t read the article about Dr. Ioannidis. More likely it was read and ignored. All the issues raised about the validity of the results of medical research never seem to translate into SCAM studies.

What was this earth shattering, high quality clinical paper that demonstrated after decades of lousy research that acupuncture works? Finally a large randomized placebo controlled clinical trial with good endpoints that demonstrates efficacy? Certainly all the prior trials that meet those criteria demonstrate acupuncture doesn’t work and that acupuncture is no better than placebo.

Readers of my entries know that my assessment of placebo: it does not alter  pathophysiology, just the perception of pain and disease, and then only a wee, clinically irrelevant, amount. I agree with the article that acupuncture is “nothing more than fancy ways of invoking the placebo.” And you know Crislip’s law: acupuncture effect = placebo and placebo effect = nothing, therefore the acupuncture effect = nothing.

I well know that interacting with a patient with a therapeutic intervention will alter the patients perception of what is occurring without altering the underlying pathophysiology. As the NEJM study revealed, if patients think they are receiving a therapy even when they are not, they will report their asthma is better even when the objective tests show no improvement. To my mind the placebo effect is no different than kissing a child’s boo-boo: it is subjectively beneficial although no objective changes occur to the boo-boo.  These human interactions are an important, if ineffective, part of the human relationships.

The Atlantic was referring to

“new, large study out of Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center, published in the Archives of Internal Medicine, cautiously suggests that there is indeed something more to acupuncture. A meta-analysis of 18,000 patients from 29 randomized controlled studies, it found that the treatment was more effective than controls in relieving back and neck pain, osteoarthritis, chronic headache, and shoulder pain. Significantly, it also found that real acupuncture was more effective than shams.”

Sigh. I see the word study, and I think oh good. Someone has done a clinical trial. Enrolled patients and compared, in a double blind manner, interventions against placebo. No. It is a meta-analysis. Calling a meta-analysis a study is not unlike a library declaring they acquired several dozen new books and magazines when their copy of Readers Digest arrives. Someone massaging preexisting data; hardly a study.  Nice for an overview of a topic, but worthless for drawing conclusions definitive conclusions.

When applied to real treatments, those based on reality and known physiology, the results of meta-analysis are often not predictive of well done clinical trials:

The outcomes of the 12 large randomized, controlled trials that we studied were not predicted accurately 35 percent of the time by the meta-analyses published previously on the same topics.

Of course, that presupposes that the topic is not tooth fairy science. If the interaction is based on nonsense, then the validity of an intervention is likely to be less. My bias, clearly stated here, is that one should be able to be able to reason up and down the pathophysiologic pathways of disease and treatment on basic biologic plausibility and basic principals.   It comes from being a truly holistic doctor, understanding infections at the level of amino acid substitution leading to drug resistance or disease susceptibility through to the interactions with the earths ecosystem.

That meta-analyses are unreliable should not be surprising. Most reality based clinical trials are flawed, and if you collect a series of flawed studies, you end up with one big flaw. The idea behind the meta-analysis, collecting all the cow pies into one big pile and making gold, is only as good as the quality of the initial pies. It is rare to collect Marie Callender’s.

I am not a true skeptic. I tend to avoid the words implausible and unlikely where I do not think they apply. As best can be determined, acupuncture, homeopathy, energy therapies, and a host of other SCAMs are, at the level of first principals, total bunk. And legitimate therapies cannot flow from pure bunk nor can a meta-analysis make pumpkin from cow.

Prior meta-analyses of acupuncture suggest they are substandard. The perhaps ironic and self referential Systematic Review of Systematic Reviews of Acupuncture published 1996-2005 suggests

“Systematic reviews of acupuncture have overstated effectiveness by including studies likely to be biased. They provide no robust evidence that acupuncture works for any indication.”

And as the Wikipedia points out

“The most severe weakness and abuse of meta-analysis often occurs when the person or persons doing the meta-analysis have an economic, social, or political agenda… If a meta-analysis is conducted by an individual or organization with a bias or predetermined desired outcome, it should be treated as highly suspect or having a high likelihood of being “junk science.” From an integrity perspective, researchers with a bias should avoid meta-analysis and use a less abuse-prone (or independent) form of research. “

This is no small issue if you happen to be a practicing clinician who takes the health and wealth of your patients seriously. Do I trust a meta-analysis that suggests linezolid is better than vancomycin for the treatment of pneumonia when the studies and the meta-analysis are sponsored by the company? It doesn’t completely abrogate the results of the trials, but it is well known that when the researcher has an axe to grind, the results will tend to sharpen the axe of the researcher.  All studies have bias, the question is how well they compensate.  I usually discount the results by about half when applied to the real world.

When approaching any study where the end points are subjective and at the limits of perception, two archetype need to be considered. The first is the endless ability of people to fool themselves.

At the turn of the last century a French Physicist, Blondlot, discovered N-rays. These rays were at the limit of detection and, like acupuncture, made no sense in the context of know reality. Multiple papers were published on N rays until a visiting professor, unknown to Blondlot, incapacitated the machine yet Blondlot still saw the N-rays.

N-rays were a purely subjective phenomenon, with the scientists involved having recorded data that matched their expectations.

Beware the N rays.

The other archetype is clever Hans, the counting horse, who actually was reading the nonverbal cues from his owner to know when to stop counting. Humans are probably more sensitive and skilled than horses at reading nonverbal cues, leading to

The observer-expectancy effect (also called the experimenter-expectancy effect,expectancy bias, observer effect, or experimenter effect) is a form of reactivity in which searcher’s cognitive bias causes them to unconsciously influence the participants of an experiment. It is a significant threat to a study’s internal validity, and is therefore typically controlled using a double-blind experimental design.

Both N-rays and clever Hans are examples of the importance of blinding the researcher and the patient and why if blinding is not adequate then any results are suspect, especially if the end points are subjective.

The studies of acupuncture that exclude N-ray and Clever Hans effects (i.e. really, really blinded) always show that acupuncture does nothing compared to fake acupuncture.

The classic interpretation of clinical trials when an intervention, say mammary artery ligation is no better than a sham mammary artery ligation, then neither are effective. I have been in medicine a long time and that career is littered with interventions that were discovered to be no better than sham/placebo and (sometime slowly and reluctantly) abandoned by the medical profession. That, of course, has yet to happen with any of the SCAMs discussed on this blog. While no hospital still offers mammary artery ligation for angina, Centers of Integrative Medicine and their ilk become more common.

So that is the background I use in approaching a clinical trial, a meta-analysis, and a paper on SCAMs. I admit I  have to read meta-analysis with Mr Gumby like understanding of the manipulation of the data, since statistics and I have never got along, despite my affinity for other forms of mathematics.

So how does “Acupuncture for Chronic Pain Individual Patient Data Meta-analysis” stand up?

Color me unimpressed.

Done by Acupuncture Trialists’ Collaboration. So no different than a meta-analysis by big pharma; they have a dog in the fight. That’s ok, we all have a dog in the fight. But any result is likely inflated.

After a search 31 of 82 trials met their criteria for inclusion.  Or they left out 51 trials, the validity of which I cannot say.   Would any of that information changed the outcomes of the analysis?  I don’t know; I lack the time to look at all the primary data in preparation of this entry.

They found that sham and real (as if there is a difference) acupuncutre were more effective than doing nothing. I would expect that. The boo-boo is being tended too; there will be salubrious results.

Did they remove the N-ray and Clever Hans bias? Nope.

“health care providers obviously were aware of the treatment provided, and, as such, a certain degree of bias of our effect estimate for specific effects cannot be entirely ruled out.”

Right there you know that the results are mostly worthless:

“Putting their results into context, the authors of the study explain that for a pain rating of 60 on a 100-point scale, follow-up scores decreased to around 43 for those had received no treatment, 35 for those who had received fake treatment, and 30 for those who received acupuncture. This translates into a 50 percent reduction in pain for the acupuncture patients, and only 30 and 42.5 percent reductions for the control and placebo groups, respectively.

It is impossible to measure pain objectively (Radiolab did a great piece on this last week), and the difference in pain reduction between sham and true acupuncture, though statistically significant, was small. But the authors’ methodical elimination of biases, coupled with their massive sample size, give weight to their findings.

The biases are there probably more enough to account for the results of real being better than sham acupuncure, the effect inconsequential clinically, and a massive sample size of cow pies only leads to one big cow pie indeed.

Dr. Strawman then weighs in:

Should the lack of biological plausibility lead us to reject compassion and empathy as a means to help improve our patients’ health?

How about

Should the lack of biological plausibility lead us to reject a costly and worthless therapy with known complications and instead use our compassion and empathy in a manner that is not based on lies?

The Fail blog needs to link to the Atlantic. It is a perfect match.

That is not all that is new about acupuncture of late. The Cochrane reviews continues to prove they have no standards or they are really getting bored. They did a review of mumps treated with acupuncture. Really. They found one study. Honestly. They meta-analyzed away:

We could not reach any confident conclusions about the efficacy and safety of acupuncture based on one study. More high-quality research is needed.

They had the same conclusion with insomnia  and endometriosis.

Of course, pain, mumps, insomnia and endometriosis all have the same underlying pathophysiology, no wonder it ‘works’ for so many diseases. Somehow  I don’t think we need to do any research on using acupuncture to treat mumps, much less do a review.

Not unsurpizingly when there is double blinding, analgesic effects disappears. This was an interesting study since they treated acute pain rather than chronic pain patients who

gather a lot of information about different pain treatments and firmly believe in different therapies.

They tested the ability of acupuncture, sham or real, to effect acute pain (cold and capsaicin). It didn’t. While the real acupuncuture worked slightly better than sham for capsaisen-induced pain, the effect, like a Vickers results, “occurred mainly in a rating range that seemed irrelevant to clinical pain.”

In another study in the same issue of Pain there is no difference between sham (random punctures), ‘real’ or placebo (fake punctures) acupuncture for low back pain, but all three are better than conventional therapy. The big flaw in the study is that they used hardened acupuncturists with a mean of 8.5 years of practice who were not blinded. While not statically different, real performed better than sham better than placebo, suggesting a clever Hans effect.

Like the asthma study in the NEJM, the best one can conclude is that acupuncture is that it is another beer goggles of alternative medicine: it convinces the wearer the disease looks better than it actually is.

* I am avoiding a Whack-a-mole metaphor.

Posted in: Acupuncture, Science and Medicine, Traditional Chinese Medicine

Leave a Comment (148) ↓

148 Comments

  1. rustichealthy October 10, 2012

    ((If you try something and feel better for whatever reasons, you will attribute your improvement to the treatment and your attribution may be wrong. ))

    While this may certainly be true, it was not simply one time..or a few..it’s been 4 years since my last problem with asthma…and within this time, not even a full out cold!..so that’s what makes me more convinced it’s not simply my mind talking myself into it. That again is why I started my site, and why I’m here..I wouldn’t even consider singing praises to vitamins/organic, if it wasn’t a period of time and experience of the same result happening over and over. See my One Hour Cold Melee…for the worst incident actually in 4 years:)..http://gethealthybehappy.yolasite.com/it-takes-time.php

    ((but in medicine we have to TEST, not just try things for ourselves.)) Exactly!..and I understand…the reason I suggest trying it is perhaps it will motivate you to looking more into it, to find or produce a test.

    Harriet and trrll..I know it would not ‘prove’ anything to anyone else, because that’s what I go through all the time! What I was hoping is, if you did try it yourself, and see if something works..let’s say any other kind of vitamin/nutrient also..not only Vit. C, but, if you saw something works yourself..a natural antibiotic (like cinnamon or coconut oil), or antifungal (like baking soda)…etc. (many references and links on my site homepage) then you’ll be more motivated to find or produce clinical tests to help support them also. And, it will then be more open and available in conventional medicine as well!

    The thing with who decides what tests are accepted or not, is, ok, really sorry, but, considering what is produced by conventional medicine, the results, creating more problems, I have a hard time understanding the acceptability of it at all. Basically, it’s the substance of what is used. Chemicals are accepted, known side-effects determined as a ‘risk/benefit’ ratio..according to their belief..or the pharma’s belief..to me is not acceptable. Just otc tylenol alone is causing liver damage. I understand you all may take it personal, but, I’m hoping you won’t.

    Regarding something like Quackwatch, explaining away the supposed psycho babble of ‘quackery’, just to cover every possible base of explanation or reasoning possible, to explain away whatever it is, that’s not known in conventional medicine..as quackery..without even Scientifically actually testing/experimenting, and simply assuming it is quackery… is all very unscientific itself. imo :) anyway..I’d be repeating myself..really nice chatting (this time :)

  2. The Dave October 10, 2012

    @Quill: Oh, of course… I completely forgot about the miasmas and the humors… :)

  3. Harriet Hall October 10, 2012

    Countering anecdote with anecdote: I haven’t had a cold in several years. I try to eat a variety of foods, but I don’t avoid any of the things Rusty deplores, and I don’t take supplements.

  4. mousethatroared October 10, 2012

    HH – clearly, I am getting all your allotment of colds. :)

  5. mousethatroared October 10, 2012

    and Rusty’s too.

  6. rustichealthy October 10, 2012

    The Dave..ok..but, whatever causes a cold..I haven’t had one. And, I know when I’m coming down with one, or whatever it is..sniffling, sneezing, coughing, wheezing, chills…I haven’t had one in 4 years…not for more than an hour that is. I don’t think I have to know exactly what does or doesn’t cause it to know it’s a cold. It is a virus, yet I haven’t had it in years..I’ve been around those with flu, and still haven’t had it. I’ve Felt like I’m coming down with one..but then I take an extra vitamin C, and some other natural remedies sometimes, and they don’t develop into anything more. It’s happened so many times over. Anyway…maybe try it for yourself next time you feel like you’re coming down with something. That’s all I can really say..have a nice day all.

  7. Harriet Hall October 10, 2012

    You’re welcome to them! Happy to share!

  8. Robb October 10, 2012

    Re: Colds and cold weather
    Just for fun, this study took a stab at this connection:
    Johnson C, Eccles R. Acute cooling of the feet and the onset of common cold symptoms. Fam Pract. 2005 Dec;22(6):608-13. Epub 2005 Nov 14.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16286463

    Could cold weather not have some connection in impairing nasal/respiratory defenses (drying out mucous membranes, impairing circulation, etc.)?

  9. Mark Crislip October 10, 2012

    True story:

    Depsite being surrounded by infections, I have not had a cold in years, ever since I started wearing ECCO leather shoes. Everytime I think I am coming down with one in the morning, I put on the ECCO shoes and head off to work and I do not get a cold.

    The one exception was one weekend I came down with a cold and on weekends I wear Merrill walking shoes

    I am convinced of cause and effect. ECCO shoes prevent colds.

  10. jmb58 October 10, 2012

    I want to anecdote share too.

    I never get sick. Haven’t missed a day of work in 6 years, even with 3 kids bringing home every virus. I eat healthy but take no effort to avoid inorganic or GMO food. Never take supplements or vitamins.

    I work 80 hours/week and compete as a competative cyclist.

    I don’t give my kids any vitamins or supplements. I do make them be active everyday. All are healthy.

    So there are plenty of anecdotes to counter every RH type anecdote. Guess we have to look to the data. All the data.

  11. The Dave October 10, 2012

    And on the other hand, even when I eat organic, non-gmo (for no other reason than its in front of me) lately I seem to always be a little congested. Perhaps the organic food is doing it to me…

  12. mousethatroared October 10, 2012

    Okay here’s my anecdote. I used to never get sick. If fact my husband still raves about how all the flus and colds passed me by. Now I get sick very often. As far as I can see, I get every cold or flu that my any of children or husband get, but sometimes worse (part of this is the kid/adult effect). I get a flu shot, (as I did then) and probably eat more healthy and exercise about the same as when I never got sick.

    Clearly, never getting sick ultimately leads to always getting sick.

    So, stop gloating, all you “healthy” people are next. :)

  13. UncleHoot October 10, 2012

    @RusticHealthy, my wife has Hashimoto’s. She finds that she has to re-explain what it is every time she gets a new doctor. ;-) But aside from that, you mentioned eating kelp, and that you feel it helps. I’m just curious what else you might think helps? She is on medication (levoxyl) and does not plan to change that.

    You also mentioned fish oil. My mother told me to start taking fish oil tablets about 2 years ago. I was skeptical, so I decided to alternate taking fish oil and not taking fish oil.

    My personal experience with fish oil – 2 capsules per day – cholesterol tests at 6 month intervals.
    First test: Total 220, HDL 30 (no fish oil)
    Second test: Total 173, HDL 37 (with fish oil)
    Third test: Total 204, HDL 34 (no fish oil)
    Forth test: Total 170, HDL 39 (fish oil)

    My weight was fairly stable throughout, although my percent body fat has dropped about 4% since the initial test. One flaw in my “study” could be seasonal changes. June tests showing the best scores, and December tests showing the worst. I’m currently still taking fish oil, however, and my next test is in December.

    (I’m new here, so please be kind and simply point me to the proper forum guidelines if I misbehave.)

  14. Chris October 10, 2012

    Well I now very seldom get colds because I am old enough to have gone through most of the over 200 virus strains! Between traveling as a kid enough to attend nine separate school districts and dealing with all of the crud that three kids dragged in from school, I may have resistance to almost every variation.

  15. BillyJoe October 10, 2012

    Another anecdote appropos of nothing:

    Whilst running I have hardly ever had a cold but, three months ago, I developed tendonitis and had to change to cycling to stay fit. Ever since I’ve had cold after cold after cold, though fortunately not severe. I think it’s the air rushing past my face on those steep downhill runs. What else could it be? I’ve heard fans on in a room at night do the same thing, so I guess it has to be that.

  16. Chris October 11, 2012

    Oh, no! BillyJoe, doncha know that running a fan at night can cause death!? ;-)

  17. mousethatroared October 11, 2012

    BillyJoe – I always heard that conditions (airplane cabin, winter home heating, etc) that dry out your nasal passage can cause cracks that lower your defenses to viruses. Not sure if that’s true or not.

  18. SkepticalHealth October 11, 2012

    I’ve never been sick, ever. I only eat McDonalds. I weigh 135 and am 9 feet tall. I have perfect telomeres.

  19. BillyJoe October 11, 2012

    :)

    I thought I’d take this opportunity to let you all know that my daughter had the ablation treatment for her 35,000 ectopics per day, and that they have been reduced to zero.
    She can now go to sleep without having to worry about those kicks in her chest every two seconds.

  20. rustichealthy October 11, 2012

    UncleHoot…thank you for that. This forum may not be the best place, but that sounds great regarding the results from fish oil!!.. perhaps other doctors here would like to comment on it. I’m not a doctor, but I do have a website with many other ideas and references for natural whole remedies and things like that. http://gethealthybehappy.yolasite.com/

    Regarding Hashimotos: I was diagnosed with hypothyroidism some years ago, but turned down the meds not seeing the need at the time, and to this day do not take any meds/hormones for it. I started taking Sea Kelp this year, also a thyroid complex, with iodine and selenium in it. I’ve lost weight since going organic and my hypothyroid symptoms have been mild now..no more dry skin, brittle nails. I would suggest going organic for both you and your wife..but, I would say to your wife to consult with her doctor first however, regarding any nutrients including kelp to be sure it doesn’t interfere with any medications. I’m sorry I don’t have experience in that.

  21. mousethatroared October 11, 2012

    BillyJoe – Good News!

  22. David Gorski October 11, 2012

    (I’m new here, so please be kind and simply point me to the proper forum guidelines if I misbehave.)

    We don’t mind pseudonyms, but no sockpuppets. That’s an absolute rule that will get you booted instantly, ELloyd. (You didn’t really think I wouldn’t notice, did you?) I let you get away with it this one time because I feel sorry for you. You may continue to comment as long as you pick a pseudonym and stick with it. What this means is that you have to choose: Are you going to be posting as UncleHoot or ELloyd. Whichever one you choose, I will delete the other. I will also moderate all of your posts for a while until I’m satisfied that you’ve learned your lesson.

  23. UncleHoot October 11, 2012

    You know what, David. I decided that I liked this blog, and I wanted to stay. I considered using my actual name and hoping that I would be allowed to start over, after such an unfortunate encounter. But I reconsidered, afraid that I would be immediately attacked, and ruin another blog. So I used my other pseudonym “UncleHoot”, who also raises chickens, plays poker, and enjoys playing the ocarina.

    I thought you may have noticed, but I believed (mistakenly) that you would let sleeping dogs lie. Now that I’ve been “outed” I suppose I have no reason to continue posting, as I will never be treated fairly. I certainly did not come here to cause trouble, and my messages were sincere.

  24. lilady October 11, 2012

    @ Billy Joe:

    Great News! I’m sure her recovery period will be less complicated that my husbands. (The ONLY complicated part of his post-ablation recovery period, was figuring out how to hook up our telephone for the two-week constant EEG telephonic event monitor). :-)

    @ ELloyd/Uncle Hoot: Could you manage to not change your gender, as well?

  25. The Dave October 11, 2012

    so, ELO + Pink Floyd, is UncleHoot a clever conjugation of 2 other of your favorite bands?

  26. UncleHoot October 11, 2012

    Yep. I guess I have no future here. I’m sorry to everyone. I had hoped that I could be my true self here, but I see that’s not ever going to be possible now. I understand. It’s my fault.

    Goodbye for real.

  27. rustichealthy October 11, 2012

    Dr. Gorski…I just read your credentials and job description..very nice, interesting…research in breast cancer. Have you looked into Vit. D and it’s effects. I understand it slows tumors…I appreciate you allowing me on here also..considering :)

  28. lilady October 11, 2012

    D’oh…Billy Joe: My husband had a two-week constant EKG telephonic event monitor. :-)

  29. UncleHoot October 11, 2012

    Since I see that my comments are still in moderation, I offer you the following option.

    Remove the ones where I agreed with your “outing” of me, and simply say something like, “Oops. I was wrong.” And perhaps lilady and others may actually believe it, assuming that they do not have the same access as you. I don’t know. I doubt it would work at this point.

    If you truly feel that I add nothing to these blogs, fine, I really will go away for ever. I’m trying to figure that out myself as well. But I am learning a lot here, and I do honestly enjoy the topics for discussion, so I had hoped to stay, without the immediate hostility that ELloyd or “Jeremy Praay” would be afforded.

    ELloyd was not me. Yes, it was me, but it was not me, if you know what I mean. I was angry. I’m not willing to forgive any of those who attacked me, but I had hoped that I could a least start over. My “if I misbehave” sentence was directed at you. I expected that you would spot me, and it was a wink and a nod to say that I’m not here to misbehave.

    Anyway, it’s up to you. I’m not sure this is worth my energy any longer.

  30. UncleHoot October 11, 2012

    Who is ELloyd?

    I’m new here, and I’m trying to figure out what these forums are all about. I’m not a doctor, but I see a lot of them here. It sounds like RusticHealthy and I may share some common interests. If there are forum guidelines, please let me know.

    I don’t understand why you feel sorry for me, either. My wife has Hashimoto’s. Last I checked, I was pretty healthy. :-)

  31. UncleHoot October 11, 2012

    Okay, then. I guess you opted for me to leave. That’s fair. I’m sorry. Goodbye.

  32. David Gorski October 11, 2012

    When a sockpuppet is noticed I tend to out that person and reveal the sock puppet. Why? Because sockpuppets are not allowed. They cause nothing but disruption. In fact, in general with precious few exceptions, that is their very purpose.

    Quite frankly, I would suggest that you stop whining and decide either to try to become a regular commenter or to go away. Pick one or the other. If you decide to continue posting, as is the case with everyone else, how you post will determine whether you rehabilitate your reputation. If you are sincere, after a while the other commenters will probably tend to forget or overlook your original less-than-savory entry into the comments of this blog. You might have to eat some crow for a while and put up with snarky comments, but those will fade over time. If you are not sincere, it will become very obvious very fast, and, yes, other commenters will likely give you a hard time—and deservedly so.

    Your choice. Make up your mind.

    As for moderation, I have a demanding day job; so I do not check the comments in moderation every minute of every day as you seem to think that I should. Sometimes several hours will pass without my checking them.

  33. mousethatroared October 11, 2012

    My old boss used to tell a story about the mathematical geniuses that he used to hang out with at MIT. Apparently, one would only talk through a sock puppet (real, not virtual). One of my creative co-workers first questions upon hearing this story was…”How did he talk on the phone?”

    To this day, I get a happy feeling whenever I hear the word “sock puppet”.

    okay – sorry, back to the medicine and science.

  34. UncleHoot October 11, 2012

    LOL, so much for moderation! Well, if nothing else, people a free to judge my sincerity. The “Who is ELloyd” comment was provisional.

    I apologize for disrupting yet another blog, but I am curious about the answer to Rustic’s vitamin D question, so I’ll probably at least stick around for that.

    My final, final, final goodbye, I hope. (Yes, Dr. Hall, “Good riddance” to me and ELloyd. Sorry for your trouble.)

  35. mousethatroared October 11, 2012

    UncleHoot – personally, I wouldn’t see a reason for you to change your name or leave. If you’re not a happy with the impression you made earlier (I wasn’t following that discussion) why don’t you just try to continue in a direction you feel better about and see what happens?

    Might not be as bad as you think.

  36. rustichealthy October 11, 2012

    I agree with mousethatroars..I didn’t see any of it either.. UncleHoot, but, I don’t believe there’s reason to leave.

  37. BillyJoe October 12, 2012

    Michele and Lilady,

    My daughter is 16. Apparently she has been having these ectopics for about three years without telling anyone. Not me, not her mother, and not any of her school friends. Yet it kept her awake at night! It was discovered when my other daughter got a new mobile phone which had a function that counts and sounds out your pulse. The sixteen year olds pulse rate was 48 bpm and the pulses were paired. The slow pulse rate turned out to be hereditary – my other daughter’s pulse rate is also about 50, and mine hovers around 45 (38 when I was running marathons). The paired beats consisted of one normal beat followed by an ectopic followed by a pause (because the ectopic comes in earlier than the normal pulse).

    BTW, the only monitoring she had was overnight in hospital, but she had to rest up completely for one week (which finishes today). She did complain of chest pain for a few days but this was apparently normal after this procedure in which the aberrant focus was ablated.

  38. lilady October 12, 2012

    @ Billy Joe:

    Dear hubby was (quite) a bit older. February 2005, he was feeling awful, went to the GP and he was thought to have the flu and placed on an anti-viral. Two weeks after that he was feeling worse and upon his return to the doctor his EKG was quite irregular (atrial-flutter) and tachycardia at 150 bpm. He drove himself to the hospital ER, where I met him. His liver enzymes were quite elevated and he had ascites. I (really had to) insist that blood was drawn for a virology panel (Hepatitis A,B and C and CMV, EBV). He was diagnosed with acute onset EBV virus…practically unheard of, for anyone his age.

    He underwent a cardioversion after he had a TEEC (trans-esophageal echo cardiogram) to make certain he had no clots that would be dislodged when his heart was stopped and restarted. His heart rate returned to normal sinus rhythm and he was put on a beta blocker….not Betapace.

    A few months after that he again experienced A-flutter, and tachycardia and he underwent catheterization, trans-esophageal echo cardiogram and the following day underwent R. atrial cardiac ablation…without anesthesia, but with morphine drip. He says it burned like hell, every time the abnormal foci were ablated.

    September 2008, now in A-Fib, he underwent catheterization, TEEC and the following day left atrial ablation…under sedation. A small percentage of adults have incomplete closure of the foramen ovale, which can be used to access the left atrium from the right atrium; he didn’t and a small hole was opened up to gain access to the left atrium. He was then put on Betapace, which must be titrated in the hospital and heparin injections…which were stopped once Coumadin was in range. Both Betapace and Coumadin were withdrawn a few months later.

    He too, felt pain after both procedures, but he was sedated during the second procedure and didn’t feel the burning of the abnormal foci.

    The most *complicated part* of both procedures occurred weeks after the procedures. (Trying to hook up our telephone for the event EKG 2 week telephonic monitoring). :-)

  39. BillyJoe October 12, 2012

    Lilady,

    (Is that short for little lady?)

    That sounds very complicated! Your husband obviously had a lot more going on than my daughter. I’m glad her condition was a bit more straight forward. Coincidentally, my daughter was diagnosed with EBV earlier this year. When we picked up her abnormal pulse on the mobile phone, I did some googling and came to the conclusion that her EBV infection caused the rare complication of myocarditis which, in turn, caused the rare complication of ectopic beats. It all made sense – until she told me she’d had the problem for three years. That sort of blew my brilliant university of google assisted diagnosis out of the water.

    I’m still amazed she could have hidden this for three years. Except that I was quilty of this myself many years ago. I mentioned that, whilst running marathons, my resting pulse dropped to about 38. Well, at night, my pulse would actually drop low enough to go into what I now know is called a ventricular escape rhythm. So every night I would experience palpitations and, like my daughter, I never told anyone about it either. (I found that, if I trained a little harder, they would actually stop and, from this, I deduced, correctly as it turned out, that they were not harmful.)

  40. lilady October 12, 2012

    @ Billy Joe:

    Lilady,

    (Is that short for little lady?)

    My ‘nym *might be* short for little lady…a girl’s gotta have some secrets. :-)

    This is why I was quite insistent with the I.D. doctor that a virology panel be ordered, to rule out viral hepatitis, CMV and EBV (chronic, reactivated, or acute onset). I was also working as a public health nurse/epidemiologist, investigating/communicable infectious diseases at a County health department.

    http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/diseases/ebv.htm

    “Primary Infection

    Primary EBV infection is indicated if IgM antibody to the viral capsid antigen is present and antibody to EBV nuclear antigen, or EBNA, is absent. A rising or high IgG antibody to the viral capsid antigen and negative antibody to EBNA after at least 4 weeks of illness is also strongly suggestive of primary infection. In addition, 80% of patients with active EBV infection produce antibody to early antigen.”

  41. BillyJoe October 12, 2012

    “My ‘nym *might be* short for little lady…a girl’s gotta have some secrets. ”

    :)

    My daughter’s IgG was negative, and her IgM was positive, indicating a recent infection. She actually had a very mild case and was back at school within a week.

  42. Daniel Urbach October 14, 2012

    Mark: “not unsurprisingly” means you’re surprised. Just my compulsive little comment.

  43. BillyJoe October 14, 2012

    He could care less. ;)

  44. Lemons October 15, 2012

    Crislip!

    Angry PANDAS are attacking Boston Children’s Hospital. Look: https://whyweprotest.net/community/threads/tomorrow-in-boston.105706/page-5#post-2202826

    The poster says:
    The National Institute of Health spent 17 years establishing PANDAS/PANS. Boston Children’s Hospital took only 17 seconds to erase it completely.

    The thread is a train wreck but it has its moments.