Oct 06 2010
Some Flu Vaccine Updates
It is always flu season somewhere in the world. As Australia’s flu season comes to a close, we are getting ready for ours in the Northern Hemisphere. This is a good time to start thinking about getting the flu vaccine, and as always there is a lot of flu vaccine news to sort through.
Mark Crislip has already reviewed the evidence for the efficacy of the seasonal flu vaccine. Like most questions in medicine, the evidence is deceptively complex, and Mark does an excellent job of sorting through it, so I won’t repeat it here.
This year the H1N1 pandemic flu virus will be incorporated into the seasonal flu vaccine, so there will not be two separate vaccines as there was last year. H1N1 remains the dominant strain of seasonal flu, and as predicted the pandemic has simply been incorporated into the seasonal flu pattern.
Here are some updates on flu vaccine news – first the good news:
Flu Vaccine Efficacy
Two recent studies demonstrate the efficacy of the flu vaccine in improving outcomes. Mark Crislip discussed two weeks ago a recent study that shows that the flu vaccine (but not the pneumococcal vaccine) is associated with a decreased risk of heart attack. This makes sense as getting the flu can be a significant physiological strain and can plausibly provoke a heart attacks in those who are susceptible. This study emphasizes the importance of getting the seasonal flu vaccine early in the flu season.
Another recent study looked at the effect of maternal flu vaccination while pregnant and the subsequent risk of flu for their infant children. Angelia Eick et al studied 1169 mother-infant pairs among Navajo and White Mountain Apache Indian reservations and found that getting the seasonal flu vaccine while pregnant was associated with increase anti-flu antibodies up to 2-3 months old and a 41% reduction in the risk of flu in the first 6 months. This is important because young infants are generally not given the flu vaccine – they depend upon passive antibodies from the mother.
These two studies add to the body of evidence that clearly demonstrates that the flu vaccine is effective in preventing the flu and reducing morbidity. The media, however, also like to report about every flu vaccine side effect scare, whether legitimate or not.
H1N1 Vaccine and Narcolepsy
Over the summer it was reported that there were a cluster of cases of narcolepsy in Finland and Sweden. Narcolepsy is a sleep disorder characterized by excessive sleepiness. It is caused by a combination of genetics and environment, and can be triggered by infections with high fever. The appearance of narcolepsy in about a dozen children and adults was thought to perhaps be associated with the Pandemrix flu vaccine, and Finland promptly suspended use of this brand of flu vaccine. The possible association was widely reported – but the follow up investigation was not.
Sweden’s Medical Products Agency (MPA) investigated a possible association between narcolepsy and the flu vaccine, specifically Pandemrix, and found no association.
The agency’s report said six narcolepsy cases in Stockholm were in children, two of whom had not received the Pandemrix vaccine, according to the YLE report. Of 10 narcolepsy cases reported in adults, half had received the vaccine.
The CDC did their own review of the vaccine adverse events reporting system (VAERS) and found no pattern of reports that would be concerning for a link between vaccines and narcolepsy.
It is perfectly reasonable, as part of the precautionary principle, to take apparent clusters of diseases and investigate them to see if they are real or are just statistical clusterings (as Carl Sagan said – “randomness is clumpy”). It is also reasonable, and this happens often, to suspend use of a drug or medical product until a potential risk can be investigated. So there really was nothing unusual about the narcolepsy episode. Most apparent clusters like this turn out not to be real, and so it is no surprise that this was the case with narcolepsy.
The more difficult problem is the media response to these episodes. I would not say that such cases should not be reported, but rather that special care should be taken to put such reports into a reasonable context and to not prematurely and unnecessarily fear-monger. Further, when later investigations find that there was no risk, that should be given equal reporting – perhaps even more, as it is more difficult to quell fears than to stoke them. In addition, there is a subculture that is anti-science-based medicine, and also anti-vaccine. Such episode are exploited for propaganda purposes. It is likely that narcolepsy will now be added to the list of fears used against vaccines by such groups.
Flu Vaccine and Convulsions in Australia
Recently in Australia there has been a real cluster of fever and seizures in children who had received a particular brand of flu vaccine, the Fluvax. New Scientist reports:
Last week the Australian Department of Health and Ageing reported that flu vaccination was “causally related” to fever and convulsions in 99 Australian children this year. Of those, 74 had no other possible cause, and Fluvax had been given to all 66 of those where the vaccine’s name was known, CSL says it is trying to identify the problem.
Unlike the narcolepsy episode, this appears to be a real cluster, and the association with a particular brand of flu vaccine statistically solid. Fever with flu vaccine is a known risk, and in young children a high fever can sometimes trigger what is called a febrile seizure. Febrile seizures, while scary for the parents, are most often benign and to not result in any permanent damage or long term seizure risk. Rarely, however, there are neurological complications.
The baseline risk of febrile seizures from the flu vaccine is about 1.4 per 10,000 doses. This is much less than what would be expected from the flu itself, and so getting the vaccine actually decreases the risk of developing febrile seizures. The Fluvax, however, was associated with a 50 fold increase in risk of febrile seizures from that normally associated with the flu vaccine. Even with this increased risk there was still more statistical benefit than risk from this vaccine, especially since the H1N1 flu (which is included in this year’s seasonal vaccine) had such a high mortality rate (1% of those children admitted to the hospital with confirmed H1N1 flu in Australia died.
But of course this is an unacceptable side effect from the Fluvax, and since it is dramatically greater than other brands there must be something wrong with this particular batch. It is not yet known what that is. This is precisely the reason for careful post-marketing surveillance of drugs and vaccines – if unexpected side effects emerge then steps can be taken to quickly remove the offending agent from the market until the risks can be sorted out.
The same company that makes Fluvax, CSL, also makes a product for the Northern Hemisphere called Afluria. The CDC is recommending that this brand not be given to children under 5 years old, as other brands are also available. It is not known if Afluria carries the same increased risk as Fluvax, but again this is a reasonable application of the precautionary principle.
Conclusion
This latest evidence supports what is already known about the seasonal flu vaccine – it works, but it is not without risk. All medical interventions have risk and it is important to always consider risk vs benefit. When considered in this context, the evidence clearly shows that the benefit of receiving the flu vaccine far outweighs the small risk. The flu is a serious illness and preventing it carries significant benefit.
188 Responses to “Some Flu Vaccine Updates”
Dr. Novella said: “In addition, there is a subculture that is anti-science-based medicine, and also anti-vaccine. Such episode (sic) are exploited for propaganda purposes.”
Fear and superstition win out over science and technology every time. At least in the minds of some. Luddites have been around for as long as men have had new ideas and new insights. When those insights, ideas and inventions bump up against long held beliefs of others friction results.
Religious education of the very young is based on embracing sometimes outrageous notions on blind faith despite all apparent evidence to the contrary. Is it any wonder that a substantial proportion of the population weighs popularly held beliefs over scientific evidence?
You have written: “The baseline risk of febrile seizures from the flu vaccine is about 1.4 per 10,000 doses. This is much less than what would be expected from the flu itself, and so getting the vaccine actually decreases the risk of developing febrile seizures.”
But not 100% of the population that is unvaccinated gets the flu, or is even exposed to it. In order to evaluate whether it decreases the risk you’d have to do a more complex comparison, though at a minimum you should adjust the rate of febrile seizure from flu by the proportion of the population estimated to contract influenza.
I have blogged about the unfounded anxieties about the fact that this year’s seasonal flu vaccine includes “swine flu” (more properly H1N1 2009) antigens at http://peterenglish.blogspot.com/2010/09/misplaced-concerns-about-seasonal-flu.html.
I’ve been concerned about the misplaced concerns about vaccinating pregnant women. There seems to be good evidence that flu vaccine is very (if not totally) safe in pregnancy; and that influenza illness has a significant and serious impact on pregnancy outcome. See e.g. http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/711576 , which describes 3 studies, all of which demonstrate improved pregnancy outcomes from flu vaccination (by preventing flu).[1]
Unfortunately the medscape reference above describes papers presented at a conference. I have located some papers with authors who seem to have given the presentations described.[2,3,4] I think I’ll need the full papers to be sure which relate to which abstracts; and I’m not sure that the second study described (by Dr Marietta Vázquez) has been published – I can’t find a PubMED paper which has her surname (with or without the accent) and the words “influenza”, “pregnancy” and “vaccination” or “vaccine”… If anybody can help me track down published versions of the papers, I’d be grateful.
Peter.
Refs:
1. Goodman A. Seasonal Flu Vaccine for Pregnant Mothers Protects Infants. Medscape Public Health & Prevention 2009; Updated 30 October 2009; Accessed: 2009 (10 November): (http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/711576).
2. Tamma PD, Steinhoff MC, Omer SB. Influenza infection and vaccination in pregnant women. Expert Rev Respir Med 2010;4(3):321-8 PMID: 20524915. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&dopt=Citation&list_uids=20524915).
3. Tamma PD, Ault KA, del Rio C, Steinhoff MC, Halsey NA, Omer SB. Safety of influenza vaccination during pregnancy. Am J Obstet Gynecol 2009;201(6):547-52 PMID: 19850275. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&dopt=Citation&list_uids=19850275).
4. Zaman K, Roy E, Arifeen SE, Rahman M, Raqib R, Wilson E, et al. Effectiveness of maternal influenza immunization in mothers and infants. N Engl J Med 2008;359(15):1555-64 PMID: 18799552. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&dopt=Citation&list_uids=18799552).
“The flu is a serious illness and preventing it carries significant benefit.”
The truth is the flu vaccine can cause serious illnesses and preventing it carries significant benefit.
ThNULL:
You’re a menace to public health.
Lisa A. Jackson, MD, MPH, senior researcher with the Group Health Research Institute in Seattle, said the main finding of a link between flu vaccination and reduced AMI risk is questionable because the authors did not conduct separate assessments of the effect on AMI risk during flu season and non-flu season. If vaccination does lower the risk, “it should only happen when flu is around,” she said.
Further, without those separate seasonal assessments, adjusting for the potential confounding variables actually can have the effect of making the answer “more wrong,” Jackson said, adding, “You see this in all these kinds of studies.”
Flu shots can also restore sight to the blind, heal the lame, exercise demons and raise the dead
Who’s the patron saint of vaccination, if I may ask? May be it’s just about time to canonize someone who’s responsible for this “medical miracle”.
Sid,
You’re confused. Only Jesus can restore sight to the blind, heal the lame and raise the dead. Anyone can exercise their demons, though
Sadly, unlike flu shots, Jesus probably never existed. What Jesus may have done (if he existed) is also far less than the true benefit of vaccinations.
You should put your faith in things that have a little more supporting evidence.
Vaccines do save lives.
(Sorry for the repost, my edit didn’t get saved when the server timed out.)
Sid,
You’re confused. Only Jesus can restore sight to the blind, heal the lame and raise the dead. Anyone can exercise their demons, though
Sadly, unlike flu shots, Jesus probably never existed. Thankfully, unlike Jesus, flu shots have saved way more lives than they have cost.
You should put your faith in things that have a little more supporting evidence.
Vaccines do save lives.
My demons like Zumba. It’s that catchy Latin beat, I think.
@Sid Offit –I think the decreased risk in heart problems was an observation from the results of the study, not a conclusion in itself.
Making the observation is perfectly fine, that’s sometimes where new hypotheses arise and stimulate further research.
Don’t confuse reporting of an observation with a definite conclusion.
@Th1Th2 –wth would a rational community cannonize anyone? sainthood is an outgrowth of an irrational belief in a God who cares. I put my faith in people who care and who are rigorous about it (medical research). No one person needs to be adulated here, it’s a community effort and we all play a part.
The causes that individual patron saints represent is fascinating. I could not find a patron saint of vaccination. One can ask for help from individual saints depending upon the illness you wish to prevent. For whooping cough for instance you might try.
Saint Blaise – Patron saint against coughs and whooping cough (as well as animals, wool and many other things).
“Agricola, governor of Cappadocia, came to Sebaste to persecute Christians. His huntsmen went into the forests of Argeus to find wild animals for the arena games, and found many waiting outside Blaise’s cave. Discovered in prayer, Blaise was arrested, and Agricola tried to get him to recant his faith. While in prison, Blaise ministered to and healed fellow prisoners, including saving a child who was choking on a fish bone; this led to the blessing of throats on Blaise’s feast day.
Thrown into a lake to drown, Blaise stood on the surface and invited his persecutors to walk out and prove the power of their gods; they drowned. When he returned to land, he was martyred by being beaten, his flesh torn with wool combs (which led to his association with and patronage of those involved in the wool trade), and then beheading.”
http://saints.sqpn.com/saint-blaise/
I must say, I do prefer the saints with the elaborate martyrdoms. It’s so old school.
I guess they don’t have a patron saint of vaccination, because you don’t have to pray for it too work, it just does.
@ Michele
“When he returned to land, he was martyred by being beaten, his flesh torn with wool combs (which led to his association with and patronage of those involved in the wool trade), and then beheading.”
Those Italians sure liked their martyrs dead, huh? Were early Christians presumed to have three lives or what? Some kind of trinity thing?
@ Zetetic
“ThNULL: You’re a menace to public health.”
You should have stopped after the third word.
Josie,
“sainthood is an outgrowth of an irrational belief in a God who cares. I put my faith in people who care and who are rigorous about it (medical research).”
Richard Dawkins once said faith is a non-thinking process. It’s not surprising to find out that Modern Medicine is no longer based on science but rather on faith. Many faithfuls of this church a.k.a patients are still blinded by their faith while waiting for a single cure a.k.a miracle to happen. Sadly, medical iatrogenesis can lead to irreversible damage. I feel sorry for these people.
windriven “Those Italians sure liked their martyrs dead, huh? Were early Christians presumed to have three lives or what? Some kind of trinity thing?”
No idea, although the Brits also seemed to have a habit of thrice killing folks, traitors in their case. Maybe the Romans left that behind with the bits of road and wall.
I guess you missed the memo about science and evidence-based medicine. It is also empty hand-waving to proclaim that medicine is faith-based.
Yes it can and the profession is and needs to continue to improve upon stop gaps to ensure that iatrogenic events are reduced. What is the alternative? Do nothing? Eliminate the medical profession? It’s easy to criticise, but much more difficult to offer valid alternatives.
I’m not sure that science based pursuits lend themselves well to hero worship and the kind of uncritical fawning that accompanies sainthood. That said, if anyone was going to be anointed the scientific/medical equivalent of “Patron ‘Saint’ of Vaccination” my money would be on someone like Jonas Salk.
I don’t know about “healing the lame” but Dr. Salk’s work certainly dealt a larger blow to manufacturers of wheelchairs’ bottom line than any biblical figures I can think of, but I must admit I haven’t done the math on that claim. Personally, if you gave me the option of getting polio, being left crippled, then being miraculously healed by a holy man or just getting a poke in the arm and never having to deal with it in the first place I would take the needle.
hyperlalia, polio was a disease that many people got without any symptoms. While it caused a great deal of harm because of sheer numbers of people getting it, you might also read someone else’s biography.
Hey Thang-
hyperlalia makes a good point about Salk. When’s the last time you saw someone in an iron lung? Couldn’t have anything to do with those vaccines you took as a kid, huh?
Chris, I’ve actually read the Hilleman biography you linked to (I stole it from a friend, finished it a year and a half ago and haven’t returned it yet…) and I definitely agree, but I went with Sabin for the name recognition and because I didn’t want to have to do a lot of math.
Polio definitely affected people differently, but I wouldn’t want to be one of the 640,000 people still suffering the effects of post polio syndrome. (Jubelt, B, Drucker, J. Poliomyelitis and the Post-Polio Syndrome in Motor Disorders. Younger, D (Ed), Lippincott Williams and Wilkins, Philadelphia 1999. p.381.)
hyperlalia:
Or Salk.
I understand. And you are right about the post-polio syndrome.
I just received from Amazon a book about the rubella epidemic in the early 1960s: Dangerous Pregnancies. I hope to get to it soon, but I have a library book to finish.
ooops, you got me. Please try and excuse the semantic paraphasia, it’s been a long day.
I understand.
I have a teenage daughter, it seems everyday is a long day.
Though the history between Salk and Sabin is very interesting (they hated each other).
I’m glad Th1Th2 is around to talk some sense into you people.
Vaccines are terrible, dangerous things that will KILL you.
Bears, on the other hand, are fantastic interventions to improve your disease resistance. In fact, the study I performed just yesterday proved conclusively that throwing a perfectly healthy individual into a closed chamber with a bear will always render their cells totally unsuitable for infection by any pathogen!
I’m currently looking for investors to help me commercialize this technology. Also, bear-breeders. Also, a lawyer.
@Maz,
You should cite evidence for your claim. In addition, if you feel that the overwhelming number of studies that report conclusions counter to your claim are incorrect or insufficient, you should state why. Without doing either of these things is irresponsible; with regards to public health issues it is dangerous and reckless.
You are entitled to your own opinions but you are *not* entitled to your own facts.
Science Mom,
“I guess you missed the memo about science and evidence-based medicine. It is also empty hand-waving to proclaim that medicine is faith-based.”
There’s no hope for the myriad of chronically-ill patients inside the Church of Modern Medicine. They will, for the rest of their lives, become slaves since they turned into experimental guinea pigs because of their own faith. This is a vicious cycle and the path to a deteriorating health is a sure thing.
“Yes it can and the profession is and needs to continue to improve upon stop gaps to ensure that iatrogenic events are reduced. What is the alternative? Do nothing? Eliminate the medical profession? It’s easy to criticise, but much more difficult to offer valid alternatives.”
Medical doctors should cease and desist in messing a perfectly healthy newborn by contaminating them with vaccines. This act of barbarism should be stopped once and for all or else these helpless creatures will reap the ill effects later. Almost all patients in the PICU and children’s ward are vaccinated, FFS.
@ bapowell:
You might want to recalibrate your sarcasm detector. Either that or YOUR post was also sarcasm and I need to recalibrate mine…
@Scott — You might be right. But I also had a brush with a ‘Mazz’ on a facebook page called “The Truth About Vaccines” who was anti-vax. If you think there aren’t people out there with Maz’s viewpoint, take a read through this:
http://www.facebook.com/thetruthaboutvaccines
Listen, I don’t know who Mazz is, but anyone with a modicum of sense knows that having two Zs in your name is just asking to get compared to ZZTop, which is never good because you know who’s going to win that contest.
Now, onto bapowell’s point:
As for evidence, if you’d read my post instead of just reciting the “medical dogma” you would see that I DID my OWN experiment. Haven’t we all learned that first hand experience is the most reliable form of evidence!?
Onto vaccines — I was formally a major proponent of vaccines, until I discovered my patented Bear-Based-Immunity-System (patent pending). BBIS is a revolutionary system in which anyone who is positive for a vaccine-preventable disease is given the standard Bear-Intervention I described above. In test populations, subjects ceased to report ANY illnesses within minutes of the first intervention.
That’s right, treating only a few patients with the intervention somehow healed the rest of the subject cohort!
In this sense, I entirely agree with Th1Th2′s sentiment. We SHOULD stop polluting newborns with vaccines and start bear-treatment IMMEDIATELY.
You know, I was having a good laugh when bapowell misinterpreted my sarcastic suggestion that Bear Therapy should be used instead of vaccines — then it hit me:
We’ve come to the point where anti-SBM people have to make such outrageous claims (in order to contradict the mountains of evidence that they are wrong), that Bear Therapy could be mistaken for an actual suggestion.
I know that this sort of thing happens incrementally, but the nonsense people will believe to avoid contradicting the views they hold is still jaw-dropping.
Sorry for messing with you bapowell, I was just trying to bait Th1Th2 into looking like a fool. He / she is a clever troll, though, and didn’t bite.
Maz – I have two comments on your radical alternative treatment.
First – I’m afraid you might run afowl of bear’s rights advocates in this endeavor. Are we sure that using bears in these experiments isn’t causing physical or emotional distress to the bears? Do you have informed consent, from the bears? Do you at least have your test subjects remove any rings, earrings, cellphones and pens or pencils from their person.
Second – You are not the first to think of this intervention. It has been know about in the faith-based community for years. Many of the early Christians were familiar with the “bear treatment”. I’m sure you’ve noticed that it is often accompanied by prayers (“Oh God, help me, Jesus Christ!” etc).
Best of luck with your endeavor. I’m sure if you persevere you can entirely stop the vicious cycle of chronic illness and the path to deteriorating health experienced by so much of the population.
*Maz – I have two comments on your radical alternative treatment.
First – I’m afraid you might run afowl of bear’s rights advocates in this endeavor. Are we sure that using bears in these experiments isn’t causing physical or emotional distress to the bears? Do you have informed consent, from the bears? Do you at least have your test subjects remove any rings, earrings, cellphones and pens or pencils from their person.
Second – You are not the first to think of this intervention. It has been know about in the faith-based community for years. Many of the early Christians were familiar with the “bear treatment”. I’m sure you’ve noticed that it is often accompanied by prayers (“Oh God, help me, Jesus Christ!” etc).
Best of luck with your endeavor. I’m sure if you persevere you can entirely stop the vicious cycle of chronic illness and the path to deteriorating health experienced by so much of the population.
*I tried to post this before and it disappeared into cyberspace. Sorry if it posts redundantly.
“”We’ve come to the point where anti-SBM people have to make such outrageous claims (in order to contradict the mountains of evidence that they are wrong), that Bear Therapy could be mistaken for an actual suggestion. ”
Well I keep trying to post comments and they are floating off into a cold and dark binany place. Maybe they will return someday.
But I just had to add how freaked out I am at the thought that TH1TH2 is actually pursuing a very dry and persistent ironical campaign, that these months of outrageous claims are all just a piece of theater. In fact, now I’m almost convinced of it and I feel pretty silly at being so credulous.
I’m still not reading anything substantive. You are merely offering faith-based handwaving to denigrate a system as faith-based. Circular logic.
And what evidence do you have that newborn vaccination is ‘contaminating them’? Besides, newborn vaccination does not support any charge you have made. You are avoiding the questions and refusing to offer any viable alternative.
Science Mom,
“I’m still not reading anything substantive. You are merely offering faith-based handwaving to denigrate a system as faith-based. Circular logic. ”
No, I don’t but someone else did clearly express her ardent FAITH towards the Church of Modern Medicine when she said “I put my faith in people who care and who are rigorous about it (medical research).” How many more patients will needlessly suffer from iatrogenesis arising from false reassurances given to them by these medical doctors who are also blind leading the blind? Of course, their ignorance level is reflected by the number of diagnostic tests and unnecessary procedures they order for the patient. You know “Too many cooks spoil the broth”.
“And what evidence do you have that newborn vaccination is ‘contaminating them’? Besides, newborn vaccination does not support any charge you have made. You are avoiding the questions and refusing to offer any viable alternative.”
If only you knew vaccines are prepared inocula and the more similar they are from pathogenic microorganisms (infectious diseases), the more they are immunogenic. If I witnessed a vaccine spillage into my work area, I will observe this:
———
18. Vaccine Spillage
Any vaccine spillage onto the skin must be cleaned with hot soapy water and dried thoroughly.
If the vaccine enters the eyes, immediate medical advice must be sought and eyes must be irrigated continuously with Sodium Chloride 0.9% for at least 10 minutes.
Any vaccine spillage onto the environment must be cleared with soap and water.
Protective clothing aprons gloves must be worn when cleaning the vaccine spillage. Any waste should then be disposed of in yellow bags
————–
Now tell me how do vaccines benefit a living creature let alone naive newborns?
“medical doctors who are also blind leading the blind?”
and
“immediate medical advice must be sought”.
You can’t make this crap up.
Cowy1,
Side-effects, adverse reactions, and anaphylaxis, WWYD? Yeah, go fill-up an RMA and return the product. Duh.
How do we know that this guy is just not an elaborate Poe?
“Now tell me how do vaccines benefit a living creature let alone naive newborns?”
There is an overwhelming body of public literature available that supports the efficacy and safety of vaccines. You simply need to seek it out — it’s your responsibility to be informed on issues that you deem important.
“Any vaccine spillage onto the skin must be cleaned with hot soapy water and dried thoroughly.
If the vaccine enters the eyes, immediate medical advice must be sought and eyes must be irrigated continuously with Sodium Chloride 0.9% for at least 10 minutes.
Any vaccine spillage onto the environment must be cleared with soap and water.
Protective clothing aprons gloves must be worn when cleaning the vaccine spillage. Any waste should then be disposed of in yellow bags”
Mayonnaise is (mostly) harmless when ingested orally, but will kill you if you inject it into your veins. This is a strawman argument and does not address 1) that vaccines are toxic (I can see good reason for thoroughly cleaning an area in which a vaccine has been spilled for the simple reason that in many cases it contains a live pathogen, something that is potentially dangerous to some people like cancer patients or those that are immunosuppressed.) 2) that even if vaccines are toxic to the skin, they may or may not be dangerous when ingested in other ways.
If you have a serious argument with substance, preferably one citing scientific evidence, then make it.
Vaccine spillage needs to be cleaned with hot soapy water! Oh noes! Won’t someone think of the children who don’t like to be bathed, or the ones that might get soap in their eyes?
bapowell,
“There is an overwhelming body of public literature available that supports the efficacy and safety of vaccines.”
Well, it is an inherent nature of vaccines to effectively communicate pathogenic microorganisms and disease antigens to the host in order to promote an intentional infectious process. For them to be immunogenic, they need to cause infection to the host–that’s the first rule!. It would be wise then to keep them out of children’s reach. Now that’s what I call safe.
“Mayonnaise is (mostly) harmless when ingested orally, but will kill you if you inject it into your veins. This is a strawman argument and does not address 1) that vaccines are toxic (I can see good reason for thoroughly cleaning an area in which a vaccine has been spilled for the simple reason that in many cases it contains a live pathogen, something that is potentially dangerous to some people like cancer patients or those that are immunosuppressed.) 2) that even if vaccines are toxic to the skin, they may or may not be dangerous when ingested in other ways. ”
Ain’t that strawman. I can live perfectly healthy without mayonnaise or vaccines. Neither of which is a prerequisite or a need. And why would you inject mayonnaise into your vein if you’re sane?
Only if you live where there is good herd immunity like a good little parasite, and avoid any cut or scrap that might give you tetanus.
And if you feel the need to avoid soap and water, I guess that means you are generally avoided by most of the population.
Th1Th2,
You basically said doctors are incompetent and then you said you would go running to them at the first sign of trouble in the same post. What you are writing is so dumb that is actually hard for me to follow exactly what you are getting at or what you believe.
Chiropractors tend to do this when pushed about the goofy things they do/believe but at least they tend to be able to burp out mildly coherent thoughts even if they mostly wrong. Your posts make me think that you have some sort of deficiency in your ability to string a series of thoughts together in a coherent manner, like some kind of misinformation vomit.
Your posts make me think that you have some sort of deficiency in your ability to string a series of thoughts together in a coherent manner, like some kind of misinformation vomit.
That’s exactly what he does. If you go back and look at other comments of th1th2 it’s the same nonesene over and over again.
Cowy1,
“You basically said doctors are incompetent and then you said you would go running to them at the first sign of trouble in the same post. What you are writing is so dumb that is actually hard for me to follow exactly what you are getting at or what you believe. ”
It’s more than the issue of incompetence. You forgot to mention that those troubles were created by the doctors themselves, it’s called iatrogenesis while the patient suffers further more from unnecessary intervention. This cascading effect is responsible for more than 700,000 deaths a year. What a complete mess , isn’t it? An uninformed parent submits her child for vaccination, then later develops seizure. Where would you think the parent will go? To the perpetrator! The doctor can fix the child again to mask the symptoms with drugs, drugs and more drugs! Or may be he can have the child go under the knife to see what else could have been damaged and have them replaced. It all depends to the level of ignorance of the doctor. Basically, at the end of the day, chronic patients are no more than different from drug addicts—they are Modern Medicine’s faithful followers.
Th1Th2
Dude seriously…is English your second language or are you just incapable of subtlety, idiomatic expression or even basic understanding of what people write?
I think you might be the only one commenting here thus far that took my comment on having ‘faith’ in medical research as some sort of religious and blind acceptance of whatever I am told.
My ‘faith’ is the same sort of ‘faith’ that allows me go through an intersection on a green light.
I don’t trust a vaccine because an anonymous worker at a hospital told me to. I trust it because I am familiar with the scientific method, with educational requirements of medical professionals and with history.
Yes, I have faith that as a whole there is enough rigor of study, honesty, checks via peer review and determinors of efficacy via clinical study –ie does the thing work or doesn’t it, that a vaccine coming through such a process will be beneficial for my health and the health of those around me.
Your life must truly suck if you don’t have that kind of faith.
You can’t trust oncoming traffic to not plow into you, you can’t trust the cashier at the supermarket to charge you the correct price for your organic tofurky you can’t even trust that your organic tofurky is organic or that it isn’t actually ground up spider meat with fillers.
As for your deteriorating health comment…yeah, it’s called death. We’re all going there eventually. If you want to get there faster with the help of a vaccine preventable illness you go right ahead.
Josie,
“I think you might be the only one commenting here thus far that took my comment on having ‘faith’ in medical research as some sort of religious and blind acceptance of whatever I am told.”
You don’t have to resort to ad hom, it’s useless. Wiki proves that you are completely misguided with regards to your own definition of faith.
“As with trust, faith involves a concept of future events or outcomes, and is used conversely for a belief “not resting on logical proof or material evidence.”http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith
Amen.
Th1Th2,
Seriously dude, put out some logical proof or kindly put a lid on it. Spit out a coherent, rational theory of how you think the immune system works and responds to our everyday environment instead of constantly changing what you’re talking about.
And do it on a cellular level please, vague generalities would only make you look less informed (which, given your previous posts here, would be hard to do).
Cowy1,
FYI, the human immune system does not begin at the level of cellular-humoral complex. There are other protective barriers to infections that comes above it even before an infection could set in. Unfortunately, vaccine apologists know only one thing: how to bypass these barriers using a syringe and cause infections.
Th1Th2 and Sid Offit are both completely inane trolls. We all know this. So my question is, why do we continue to bother pandering to them? In a previous SBM article on the pertussis outbreak Sid tried to claim that outbreak was no bigger than any normal cyclical outbreak, that it was not lack of vaccination in children causing the issue, and that the season was “almost over” and the numbers didn’t support the claims. He even pulled an article from the CDC to back up his claims – which was 3 months old. When called on that, he pulled up new data and still stuck to his guns, clearly without have read the CDC data. I pulled up the newest data, wrote up an analysis that showed a very strong indication that it was, in fact, unvaccinated white children that were the major factor in this outbreak, that adults not getting a booster was not a factor, that illegal immigrants bringing the disease from Mexico was also not a factor, and that there was, definitely, a MAJOR spike in the disease. I even showed how his assertion that “the season was almost over” could in now way be supported by the data. Just look here. Never managed to get a response from Sid about it. Anything you want to say about it here bucko?
Th1Th2 – I am so tempted to sit here and continue this refutation and keep showing you how you are wrong (just like Sid) such as how vaccination does NOT cause infection (and in many cases CANNOT cause infection, as in the cases of tetanus and diptheria vaccines). I could toss up article after article – better stuff than Wikipedia and Dr. Google (yes, such things exist, I know shocking, right?) for each and every point. As could pretty much anyone on this blog (and they have been). But why waste my time? I have learned from debating creationists, religious fundamentalists, young earthers, and pseudoscience hawkers that they all share one fundamental characteristic – an amazing ability to ignore, deny, self delude, and continue finding new ways to nitpick irrelevant esoteria thinking that is somehow an argument. Gorski said it best – they are the Black Knight. Ad hominem attacks are not valid only in cases disputing evidence – the premise being that the personal attributes of the evidentiary proponent in no way alters the veracity of the evidence at hand. However, Sid and Th1Th2 are not presenting evidence. They are presenting skewed interpretation, half-truths, outright lies, and pure opinion and speculation – and doing so in an internally contradictory manner (as Cowy1 kindly pointed out). I would argue that while still poor form, ad hominem is no longer a fallacy of debate in this instance.
So the question, fellow scientific thinkers, is how does one deal with someone the likes of Sid and Th1Th2? I suggest the same way you deal with the Black Knight: You walk around his stump of a torso and continue on while he shouts how he has won the day.
I’m open to comments to convince me why (on this forum, not in the public and the media) it is important we take the time and effort to combat such inane and useless drivel.
That was the same evasive crap.
Assuming you brush you teeth, have ever been scratched or cut or have taken a dump you’ve had transient bacteremia. How does your body handle that?
Maybe Th1Th2 is not a Poe, but a computer program that spits out random words that are kinda sorta related to the topic. Perhaps a troll version of the Automatic Computer Science Paper Generator.
Cowy1,
“Assuming you brush you teeth, have ever been scratched or cut or have taken a dump you’ve had transient bacteremia. How does your body handle that?”
It depends. If your intention and reason why you have to brush your teeth is to promote infection such as bacteremia then there are better and more effective way on how to do it. You could have used a steel brush instead a soft-bristle toothbrush and scrub them against your teeth and gums until you bleed heavily. Fortunately for me, that is not my intention and I don’t get sick every time I brush my teeth, do you?
May be you could used a better analogy next time.
Definitely a troll bot.
“If your intention and reason why you have to brush your teeth is to promote infection such as bacteremia then there are better and more effective way on how to do it. You could have used a steel brush instead a soft-bristle toothbrush and scrub them against your teeth and gums until you bleed heavily. Fortunately for me, that is not my intention and I don’t get sick every time I brush my teeth, do you?”
At least now I’m sure you have no idea what you are talking about. Since you’ve taken a crap before, and created microdamage in your rectum via the act of taking a crap, you’ve had bacterial invasion beyond a mucosal/skin barrier that has likely entered the bloodstream at some point hence my use of the term bacteremia. Clearly, since we don’t all get sick when we brush our teeth, our bodies must be doing something to stop the infection from taking hold.
Can you explain what that is on a cellular level (because getting deeper than that would surely be too difficult). If you can’t please take yourself back to the kids table and leave this “complicated” stuff to the adults.
Cowy1,
“At least now I’m sure you have no idea what you are talking about. Since you’ve taken a crap before, and created microdamage in your rectum via the act of taking a crap, you’ve had bacterial invasion beyond a mucosal/skin barrier that has likely entered the bloodstream at some point hence my use of the term bacteremia.”
Do you diagnose yourself every time you take a dump? For goodness sake, why don’t you go ahead and take a series of blood cultures and come back here if you are really bacteremic. But until the results are in, may be you can start off with empiric antibiotics. Oh BTW, I have a better idea, why don’t you shut down your rectum and wait until you develop toxemia, septicemia and encephalopathy. You see that’s one way how to avoid microcuts in your precious rectum.
“Clearly, since we don’t all get sick when we brush our teeth, our bodies must be doing something to stop the infection from taking hold.”
Or may be you’re doing “something” to prevent oral cavities? Hello!
“Can you explain what that is on a cellular level (because getting deeper than that would surely be too difficult). If you can’t please take yourself back to the kids table and leave this “complicated” stuff to the adults”
Tell me first on how you plan to infect me then I will explain it to you at the cellular level. But until then, I will stay away from any infectious sources like vaccines and contagious individuals.
@Th1Th2,
It is hardly necessary to bother to reply to your comments because they convict you of obfuscation and obscurantism with each comment you post.
Nevertheless, I will add my two bits worth.
You can get infected without active, intentional intervention by an outside agent. It happens quite often in the routine interactions between your body and the external environment, or even the internal environment in the case of eliminating fecal matter.
And, you don’t have to diagnose the infection for it to exist. You don’t have to believe in it either. You may not even notice it.
Because your body has evolved built-in mechanisms for dealing with it. One of the most critical of those mechanisms is your immune system, which recognizes these organisms and acts to eliminate them.
Twisting definitions to try to argue this process out of existence only allows you to continue pretending to yourself. It doesn’t convince anyone.
Here is a description of Th1Th2′s style:
Which reminded me of the Computer Science Paper Generator. So either he/she is a troll bot programmed to post inane comments, or simply a very deluded person who does not understand what she/he reads and responds with very distorted versions of some kind of reality.
nybgrus,
“I am so tempted to sit here and continue this refutation and keep showing you how you are wrong (just like Sid) such as how vaccination does NOT cause infection (and in many cases CANNOT cause infection, as in the cases of tetanus and diptheria vaccines).”
A vaccine that is locked up in the stockpile cabinet CANNOT cause infection just like an infected child placed in strict seclusion CANNOT cause transmission to others. The act of vaccine administration itself is the initial stage of the infection process in which KNOWN biological components and contaminants from diseases are being introduced and transmitted into the body in an unrestricted manner especially in areas which are sterile like the muscle. So if you want to be infected, get exposed.
The toxic nature of diphtheriae and tetanus is attributed to the presence of bacterial toxins—the same toxins you will find in the vaccine, only in weakened state (toxoid).
squirellelite,
“You can get infected without active, intentional intervention by an outside agent. It happens quite often in the routine interactions between your body and the external environment,”
Right, a vaccine stored in the physician’s cabinet cannot infect me since I am 10 miles away from the clinic, unless of course I am willing to go there and be exposed. You’re saying?
“or even the internal environment in the case of eliminating fecal matter.”
The excretory system is a system composed of involuntary processes of detoxification to prevent endogenous infection that could harm the body. Unless, you’re constipated, straining too hard, etc, the process itself is innocuous. Shouldn’t you be worried about OPV administration itself rather than the irrational fear of defecating? Because in the former, children are taking in live viruses as opposed to avoiding them. How funny, children are taught not to eat with dirty hands or any crap but somehow they find it easy to acquire poliovirus for as long it is placed on sugar cubes. Sweet.
squirrelelite,
“And, you don’t have to diagnose the infection for it to exist. You don’t have to believe in it either. You may not even notice it.”
If there’s anyone in this world that makes the worst diagnostic decisions of any kind without contest are the doctors. They are so ignorant they don’t even know that newborns are sterile, otherwise, there’s no reason for them to make them filthy thru inoculation.
“Because your body has evolved built-in mechanisms for dealing with it. One of the most critical of those mechanisms is your immune system, which recognizes these organisms and acts to eliminate them.”
There are other essential factors that provide “immunity” without the involvement of the immune system per se. Examples of these are the distance from infectious source, the time and length of exposure and the use of protective shielding.
Remember, I am 10 miles away from the source of infection.
@Th1Th2,
Humans, and lots of other animal and plant species, were getting infected for millennia before people finally developed the tools and knowledge to figure out what caused these diseases and developed techniques like vaccination to protect against getting them.
They had many strange ideas about what caused the diseases but a lot of people got sick and died from the diseases anyway.
squirrelelite,
Seriously, the word “protection” clearly is the opposite of what vaccines do. If the host cannot even protect himself from the invasion of killed/inactivated/dead microbial/viral components, I don’t know what live microorganisms in vaccines can further do. You see, you’re not doing humans any favor if you’re just re-inventing infectious diseases.
“anyone in this world that makes the worst diagnostic decisions of any kind without contest are the doctors.”
But you’ll run right to them as soon as you have a problem as you conceded in an earlier post.
I think you must be some kind of self-help, whole foods nut who attended Google U and has zero context for the things you read about. If you had any idea about the nature of the things you are talking about you’d realize how stupid they are. You have infected yourself pretty much every day by brushing your teeth (with a soft brush) or even eating non-mushy food by creating tiny tears in the mucosal tissue of your oral cavity and esophagus. The infectious bacteria that reside in these areas get into your body daily, yet you (and most other people) rarely get sick. Explain to me why, with appropriate cellular-level detail, we rarely get sick despite constantly having bacterial invasion beyond the passive barrier systems.
Cowy1, we actually have ten times more bacteria in our bodies than cells. Several of them we need to actually digest our food.
But sometimes they go rogue, and there are some that create toxins that are hazardous (like tetanus, Hib, diphtheria.. etc). Do you think Th1Th2 would know the difference between the two types?
Chris,
That’s actually some neat trivia and no, I don’t think it would. I believe my previous assessment about the ignorant but well-meaning Google U graduate is probably correct.
Hell, what I’m asking isn’t even that complicated, at least if you’ve spent any time actually learning how the immune system works.
Cowy1,
“But you’ll run right to them as soon as you have a problem as you conceded in an earlier post. ”
I never conceded anything. I was referring to the faithfuls who belong to the Church of Modern Medicine e.g. those who continue put their faith and health in the hands of their doctor only to become one of the more than 700,000 souls that are wasted every year from iatrogenesis (doctor-induced deaths). I don’t belong to that ‘religion’ and I don’t even take any medication whatsoever, so “running’ right to them for an antidote is irrelevant.
“You have infected yourself pretty much every day by brushing your teeth (with a soft brush) or even eating non-mushy food by creating tiny tears in the mucosal tissue of your oral cavity and esophagus. The infectious bacteria that reside in these areas get into your body daily, yet you (and most other people) rarely get sick.”
You’re somewhat confused to differentiate normal flora from pathogenic microorganisms. The reason people don’t get sick is because there is no pathogenic microorganism/s that could possibly cause the infectious disease. Similarly, people don’t get tetanus unless C. tetani is present. But hey, patients get free toxins anyway because doctors are so ignorant that they always shoot in the dark.
“Explain to me why, with appropriate cellular-level detail, we rarely get sick despite constantly having bacterial invasion beyond the passive barrier systems.”
It’s because of the restrictive nature and mechanism of the innate immune system, that’s why. Vaccines,inherently, do more damage “beyond the passive barrier system”.
Chris,
“But sometimes they go rogue, and there are some that create toxins that are hazardous (like tetanus, Hib, diphtheria.. etc). Do you think Th1Th2 would know the difference between the two types?”
The Hib does NOT produce any toxins whatsoever. Please revise it while it’s still early.
So, I misspoke. Big freaking deal. It is still dangerous to very young children.
So you now support the Hib vaccine. Good for you! You are making progress.
First, Do No Harm
Hmmm… that is an interesting notion. I am supposed to correct my error, but Th1Th2 does not have to revise any of his/her rather flaky beliefs.
Nice double standard you have there, troll bot.
Oh, didn’t notice the non-answer. Do you mind telling the harm from the Hib vaccine versus the disease? Remember that several children have died from it in the USA in the past couple of years (partly due to a vaccine shortage and those who have a Google U. education and did not vaccinate their children).
Come on… put up or shut up. Stop the pseudo hand waving of sciencey word, and give the real studies that show the vaccine has caused real harm when compared to the harm to toddlers who actually got the disease.
Chris,
“Do you mind telling the harm from the Hib vaccine versus the disease? Remember that several children have died from it in the USA in the past couple of years (partly due to a vaccine shortage and those who have a Google U. education and did not vaccinate their children).”
Putting harm onto children can never be an option. Your use of the “lesser of two evils” principle does not justify any benefit whatsoever. They only promote and propagate infection.
I have never encountered a hospital that records mortality rate for the unvaccinated let alone worked in a ward or ICU which is solely for the unvaccinated. I hope that “several” Hib deaths is more than the 700,000 deaths for just patronizing Modern Medicine.
“Come on… put up or shut up. Stop the pseudo hand waving of sciencey word, and give the real studies that show the vaccine has caused real harm when compared to the harm to toddlers who actually got the disease.”
The real question is how do you plan to infect a naive child with Hib? You know they are not guinea pigs right?
Th1,
I confess. Woe is I. I gave flu shots to 40-50 people per morning this past week. Will you ever forgive me? I hope not!
Th1,
I confess. Woe is I. I gave flu shots to 40-50 people per morning this past week. Will you ever forgive me? I hope not!
Troll bot:
What makes a naive child? Is that before birth or after birth… where the child passes past the vagina and gets its first dose of maternal flora? How about the first time to the breast where it gets another dose of maternal flora? Some of which might be Hib.
I don’t think it is the child who is naive in this conversation.
Okay, you think you know immunology… how exactly does using the itty bitty bits from the coating of the bacteria cause an infection? Especially from a bacteria that is so ubiquitous that almost a century ago it was considered the cause of the 1918 influenza pandemic (hence the not so accurate name).
Show us the evidence that the sugar from the bacterial coating causes an Hib invective, and you will be taken seriously. Until then you have not answered the question. Tell us exactly why using the vaccine is worse than letting a child become permanently disabled or killed from the actual disease?
Now I understand Thing1Thing2… she/he does not doing any kind of medical intervention. He/she will not ever tell us which is better: the vaccine or the disease.
It must be some kind of “our precious bodily fluids” stuff. He/she would rather see a baby die from pertussis or Hib because that is the “natural” option, instead of getting “teh ebil” vaccine. Especially with this idiotic statement:
Hey, troll bot, do you have a reference for that number or did it come from some faulty memory chip?
Chris,
Quacks like to reference that 700,000 deaths number as a way to validate their kooky theories. I’ve never seen the primary research for it so it seems a little dubious to me.
Besides, what they don’t think about it how many more would die if we got rid of medicine altogether. Easily, within a year, the number would top 10million.
I now figure that Th1Th2 is a total anti-medicine troll bot, and reminds me of John Scudamore of whale.to, the target of Scopie’s Law. Or one of those whose religion thinks nature should take its course and babies/children who die from vaccine preventable disease somehow deserved their fate.
I prefer to think of him/her as an incredibly persistent satirical poster* and respond along those lines. If nothing else, it’s more fun.
*I understand this is a matter of personal preference.
Chris,
“What makes a naive child? Is that before birth or after birth… where the child passes past the vagina and gets its first dose of maternal flora? How about the first time to the breast where it gets another dose of maternal flora? Some of which might be Hib.”
The child is naive for as long as his blood, brain, CSF, and muscles remain sterile, that is, free of any microorganisms including those “itty bitty bits”. For goodness sake, why do you always oppose natural childbirth and breastfeeding. Your irrational fear that there might be Hib in there is unfounded. You don’t even know how to differentiate indigenous flora from pathogenic microorganisms. The presence of the normal flora is essential to the child because it provides protection and bacterial antagonism against pathogens.
“Okay, you think you know immunology… how exactly does using the itty bitty bits from the coating of the bacteria cause an infection?”
Easy. Put them on a syringe, grab a naive child, and stick the needle and release those “itty bitty bits” (trademark) to a sterile area like the muscle. Your immune system is actively securing and guarding places which should be maintained sterile but the doctors would just f@#$% it up like that and create a mess. If you can’t even protect yourself from those “itty bitty bits” from entering the body, I don’t what else to tell you.
“Show us the evidence that the sugar from the bacterial coating causes an Hib invective, and you will be taken seriously. Until then you have not answered the question.”
Evidence? What else do you expect when you get a Hib shot? Of course, you’re getting the Haemophilus b capsular polysaccharide (polyribosyl-ribitol-phosphate (PRP). Read the label for crying out loud, you’re not getting any brown sugar or Splenda.
“Tell us exactly why using the vaccine is worse than letting a child become permanently disabled or killed from the actual disease? ”
You shouldn’t be asking parents on how they plan to disable or kill their children. That is very unethical. All they have to do is to stay away from any source of infection e.g. natural infection and vaccines. If you cannot even protect your children from getting “itty bitty bits” of KNOWN pathogens, then you are turning them into sacrificial lambs.
“Now I understand Thing1Thing2… she/he does not doing any kind of medical intervention. He/she will not ever tell us which is better: the vaccine or the disease.”
You mean which of the two is more horrible? A minor sexual assault is “BETTER” than getting raped. And of course, you advocate the ritual that parents have their children subjected to some form of minor sexual harassment early in life to prepare them in the event a rape occurs. And, at some point, a rape happens, it will be a lot EASIER for them to handle the ordeal. But you’re not alone though. How about those who prefer getting “raped” instead. Yes, I am talking about those insane parents who party their naive children in a varicella-infested house.
“It must be some kind of “our precious bodily fluids” stuff. He/she would rather see a baby die from pertussis or Hib because that is the “natural” option, instead of getting “teh ebil” vaccine. ”
The natural option is to stay away from contagious individuals and from any source of infection like vaccines. How hard could it be for you not to understand it? I believe some people can even lose their “natural” instinct.
“Hey, troll bot, do you have a reference for that number or did it come from some faulty memory chip?”
Just a nitpick. Actually that is more than 700,000 iatrogenic deaths a YEAR brought to you by your friendly doctors in your neighborhood.
My, my, my… you are going into fully loony mode. Sexual assault? Polysaccharide is a type of starch, which is a glucose polymer (which is a type of sugar). It shows you read the stuff, but you don’t understand it.
Interesting projection. Since I did both, and even breastfed for over two years the younger two kids (the oldest self-weaned after he turned a year old).
You seem to be in the “natural is better” for everything, including that diseases must be easy to avoid. That is a Nirvana fallacy. Especially since some infectious agents can stay in a room and still infect long after a sick person leaves the room.
So what is your plan to protect a baby? Keep them in a sterile environment? Never let them out of the room they are born in until they are five years old? Boil to sterilize all their food? Make sure the air to that room is completely filtered? Put them in an air-proof bag, and then boil them to kill all of the bacteria?
Okay, where does this number come from? How many of those people would have died anyway without medical intervention? Just repeating the claim does not make it true, nor is it proof of any kind.
Also, oh, clueless one: I also used cloth diapers and made baby food, plus I have an organic garden. The latter being a reason I keep up with my tetanus boosters (oh, sure… you would probably never let a kid near dirt, as that contains tetanus spoors and, quelle horreur, aluminum!).
Just because I did the “natural mama” bit does not mean I reject science. Vaccines are a more natural and kinder way of protecting children than letting them get sick.
Now you come up with real evidence that vaccines cause more harm than diseases, or just go away with your loony toon ideas about the world.
Chris,
“Polysaccharide is a type of starch, which is a glucose polymer (which is a type of sugar). It shows you read the stuff, but you don’t understand it.”
You’re the one who started the “sugar coating” thingy, to intentionally mislead uninformed parents that they are just getting some sort of a table sugar from the vaccine and deliberately ignored the fact that these “sugars” are associated with the pathogenic Hib.
“You seem to be in the “natural is better” for everything, including that diseases must be easy to avoid. That is a Nirvana fallacy. Especially since some infectious agents can stay in a room and still infect long after a sick person leaves the room.”
I am 10 miles away from the nearest source of infection, that is, away from the nearest vaccine and sick people. Should I be worried? I thought that’s quite a long distance for them to infect me. But some people like to be living in a cesspool or become one. Just check your local hospital.
“So what is your plan to protect a baby? Keep them in a sterile environment? Never let them out of the room they are born in until they are five years old? Boil to sterilize all their food? Make sure the air to that room is completely filtered? Put them in an air-proof bag, and then boil them to kill all of the bacteria?”
To start off, I will protect the newborns from any source of infection by avoiding intentional inoculation and exposure to diseases. The rest of the options you’re giving me are unnecessary and farcical.
You know, pretty much whenever someone analogizes something to child molestation, I figure they have completely lost their moral bearings.
Chris,
“(oh, sure… you would probably never let a kid near dirt, as that contains tetanus spoors and, quelle horreur, aluminum!).”
Why should I let the child walk on the dirt when there is a dry concrete pavement next to it? A toddler would readily know which is the safe path to take even without the knowledge of C. tetani, but I am just fascinated how parents are offering very poor choices (or lack thereof).
Th1Th2 is right. The best plan would be to keep newborns away from any possible source of infection. Like the boy in the bubble. It’s a laudable goal, but I don’t see how it’s possible in the real world.
As for the sidewalk/dirt scenario, I think toddlers are likely to find the dirt more interesting: it’s something they can pick up, play with and even eat.
I just figure this is a good place to point to if anyone tried to have a dialog with this person. I’m curious what kind of burnt earth technique this natural living person used to destroy every Clostridium tetani within ten miles, or all of the teaming microbes on his/her body.
Still can’t see any evidence of where the mystical 700,000 came from. In 2006 there were about 2.5 million deaths in the USA, a country with about 307 million people. It is hard to believe that over a quarter were caused by real medicine. That is definitely an alternative reality.
Chris,
“Vaccines are a more natural and kinder way of protecting children than letting them get sick.”
Natural? I don’t find it natural at all when a child has to get a series of intentional needle sticks and has to suffer the ill effects of the injury every clinic visits. What I find natural though is that vaccines are just as similar as to the disease-causing microorganism hence, they are the artificial source of infection.
Kinder? Snake oil tactic. Dumb doctors always do that to sell their product. Seriously, babies are too young to know what kindness is. They cry when they are hurt. They don’t punch but I hope they do.
Proof you have never been around very young children. Your Nirvana world does not exist.
Also what you said is sad, so very sad. I am so glad that we have been able to give our children a real childhood that included playing in dirt, scraping knees (easier on sidewalks because they are hard), swims at the beach (where we found fossils! and live clams!) and contact with other children.
You have never dealt with a child who has been hospitalized due to a real infection (I have, several times). From what you wrote earlier, you have absolutely no experience with children. I hope you never have children, because they would live in a very limited and stifling environment.
You jump on anyone who types a mistake, yet you refuse to absorb any information that shows you are in error. You have been told over and over again that the immune response to a vaccine is not a full infection.
Harriet Hall,
“Th1Th2 is right. The best plan would be to keep newborns away from any possible source of infection. Like the boy in the bubble. It’s a laudable goal, but I don’t see how it’s possible in the real world. ”
Keep the newborns away from infectious sources like vaccines and contagious individuals. Possible? Absolutely. Needless to say, it’s effortless. No bubbles needed.
Harriet Hall,
“As for the sidewalk/dirt scenario, I think toddlers are likely to find the dirt more interesting: it’s something they can pick up, play with and even eat.”
Where are the parents of this kid? Oh Harriet.
“Th1Th2 is right. The best plan would be to keep newborns away from any possible source of infection. Like the boy in the bubble. It’s a laudable goal, but I don’t see how it’s possible in the real world. ”
I’m not even sure about that, at least in someone without an immune deficiency. There is some evidence that a sterile environment could be contributing to the increase in asthma and inflammatory bowel disease.
This guy is so off base that it would be an improvement for him to be even wrong.
Chris,
“Proof you have never been around very young children. Your Nirvana world does not exist.
Also what you said is sad, so very sad. I am so glad that we have been able to give our children a real childhood that included playing in dirt, scraping knees (easier on sidewalks because they are hard), swims at the beach (where we found fossils! and live clams!) and contact with other children.”
Playing in dirt? I know a place where it is even more ‘dirty’. Why don’t you let them play in a landfill or sewage. Which brings me back to your previous question, ‘which is better’?
Scrapping knees? They don’t use their knees to walk, do they? If that can be prevented, why can’t you? It seems though the more children scraped their knees, the happier are you.
Beach? Fine. I don’t see any problem with that.
Contact with other children? For as long as they are not sick and contagious.
He/she really does not understand child development.
When my younger son was between three to five I sometimes find him chewing gum. I did not give them gum because it would be found in unfortunate places. I asked him where he got the gum, and then he pointed to spot on the sidewalk where he had pried up off some to chew.
He has a very robust immune system, is fully vaccinated and very healthy.
Further proof this person has never been around young children. Do you actually think toddlers don’t run and fall? Do you think that on their first birthday they get up and start walking perfectly? That no child has every tripped on toy?
And really, what kind of child never plays in dirt, or at a minimum a sand box? Have you ever heard of these?
weing,
“There is some evidence that a sterile environment could be contributing to the increase in asthma and inflammatory bowel disease. This guy is so off base that it would be an improvement for him to be even wrong.”
Clearly, that is NOT the point. Obviously, basic comprehension is not one of your skills.
I am talking about internal sterility in areas that are normally and physiologically free of any biological contaminants such as the blood, brain, CSF and the muscles. Vaccines, inherently, thwart this aseptic state by introducing non-indigenous components from known pathogens.
So now who’s off base?
Can it be banned now? This is so ridiculous that it’s hard for me to believe that somebody could actually believe it. I’m all for realistic argument but this is just poisoning the message section.
I mean, I’m a reasonably smart guy with a pretty strong background in science and I get lost trying to figure out what the hell it’s talking about.
“Can it be banned now? This is so ridiculous that it’s hard for me to believe that somebody could actually believe it. I’m all for realistic argument but this is just poisoning the message section.”
If the billy goats stopped trip-tropping across the bridge it wouldn’t be as problematic.
weing – I find the hygiene theory fascinating. I use it to comfort myself every time I take the kids to Chuckie Cheese.
Chris,
“Further proof this person has never been around young children. Do you actually think toddlers don’t run and fall? Do you think that on their first birthday they get up and start walking perfectly? That no child has every tripped on toy?”
That’s why responsible parents should always be at their sides to assist them in walking without getting their knees scraped, to clear out obstructions that might cause tripping, etc. Now, if you think that abrasions, lacerations etc are like everyday scenario that kids MUST endure, then obviously something is wrong with your parenting skills.
“And really, what kind of child never plays in dirt, or at a minimum a sand box? Have you ever heard of these?”
I have a better option that is not as ‘dirty’ and messy as the choices above especially when it’s raining like indoor plays. Did I make the wrong choice?
The toy looks OK though when you take it to the landfill and have the child play with it, would you do it?
Chris,
And on the next day you went back to look for more gums on the sidewalk. Did you find some more and gave it to your child?
Th1Th2 says “They don’t use their knees to walk, do they?”
No, duh! But they crawl before they walk, and they fall down a lot when they are learning to walk.
And parents can’t offer perfect vigilance. Anyone who has had a toddler can testify that no matter how careful they are, the kid will eventually evade their attention long enough to try to eat a bug or a dead leaf. All it takes is a blink of the eye: toddlers move fast and have no judgment.
Playing indoors? Are you sure no one has ever walked into your house with feet or shoes that had been previously contaminated with tetanus spores by walking on dirt? Do you sterilize your floors daily?
Contact with other children? Do you really think you can determine whether another child might be in the preclinical stages of an infection or might be an asymptomatic carrier?
The goal of keeping a child away from any source of infection is not only impossible, but may be counterproductive. Not being exposed to any antigens would actually impair their immune competence.
Th1Th2 could only convince us if it could show evidence that children who have not been vaccinated are healthier, or that children can be reliably protected from vaccine-preventable diseases without vaccination. Th1Th2 is long on crackpot opinions and short on evidence.
Chris,
“You have been told over and over again that the immune response to a vaccine is not a full infection.”
Full? You mean asymptomatic infection does not exist?
TH1 Troll: “The Hib does NOT produce any toxins whatsoever.”
Funny that. I thought HiB was a gram negative rod.
You know, just like the ones packed full of lipopolysaccharide endotoxin.
Sigh… We’ll just have to rewrite all those hundreds of reference microbiology books, and sue all those researchers for their tens of thousands of fraudulent papers on the topic.
I guess every microbiologist who ever trained will just have to bow down in awe at TH1 Troll’s superior microbial knowledge, and admit they have been wrong all these years.
But there is good news- we can relax, and stop vaccinating against HiB. Without any toxins, its a totally harmless little beast. I guess all the kids who supposedly died from it in the past were actually killed by the hospital food, or the doctor’s stethoscopes or something.
Harriet Hall,
“No, duh! But they crawl before they walk, and they fall down a lot when they are learning to walk.”
But it’s your choice though where you want them to crawl and fall into, if you happen to think in advance. Carpet, dirt, sidewalk, or burning coal, WWYD?
“And parents can’t offer perfect vigilance. Anyone who has had a toddler can testify that no matter how careful they are, the kid will eventually evade their attention long enough to try to eat a bug or a dead leaf. All it takes is a blink of the eye: toddlers move fast and have no judgment. ”
So let us all blame the child.
“Are you sure no one has ever walked into your house with feet or shoes that had been previously contaminated with tetanus spores by walking on dirt? Do you sterilize your floors daily?”
I don’t have any autoclave machine in my house nor I inspect shoes for C. tetani. But hey, I do have a simple vacuum cleaner to clean up obvious dirt. Do you think I made the logical choice?
“Do you really think you can determine whether another child might be in the preclinical stages of an infection or might be an asymptomatic carrier? ”
Signs and symptoms, however non-specific will definitely help.
“The goal of keeping a child away from any source of infection is not only impossible, but may be counterproductive. Not being exposed to any antigens would actually impair their immune competence.”
You statements are misleading and false. The goal of disease prevention starts with infection control. Antigenic stimulation is ubiquitous but it does not mean pathogen exposure is acceptable and an expected event that a child MUST have.
“Th1Th2 could only convince us if it could show evidence that children who have not been vaccinated are healthier, or that children can be reliably protected from vaccine-preventable diseases without vaccination.”
I have neither seen nor worked in a hospital that caters only for the unvaccinated.
Deetee,
I know that but I was referring to exotoxins in connection with previous discussion.
Deetee,
“But there is good news- we can relax, and stop vaccinating against HiB. Without any toxins, its a totally harmless little beast. I guess all the kids who supposedly died from it in the past were actually killed by the hospital food, or the doctor’s stethoscopes or something.”
They mostly died from medical treatment of course. Even now, a quarter of a million people will die every year from iatrogenesis amidst technological advancement..ahem… Don’t blame the food, it’s a physiologic need.
I love how the thing that has never been around children is now giving out parenting advice! It has turned into a parody of inanity!
Especially with this gem:
Only in its little fairy tale land can it magically know when another child is contagious. What a laugh riot of stupidity.
Oh, and further proof it has never been around children… especially the asymptomatic child who kept re-infecting his siblings with strep throat.
I don’t think banning the silly twit is what is needed. Making sure it never breeds is better.
HarrietHall “Th1Th2 could only convince us,etc”
Actually, I’m completely convinced by TH1TH2′s argument.
To keep my child from being exposed to dangerous illness…
I should vigilantly monitor them, assuring at all times that they not skin their knee or puncture their skin, walk on dirt or unclean sidewalks, flooring etc* When possible keeping them inside is preferred. I should keep the home free of contagious pathogens, avoid bringing them in from outside the home and avoid allowing my spouse to enter the home when he had been exposed to coworkers who are sick or contagious or have asymptomatic disease. My child should not play with children who are experiencing symptomatic contagious disease or asymptomatic contagious disease.
Or I can…
Get my child vaccinated.
I’m thinking long and hard about th1th2′s concerns with asymptomatic infection. But I have to admit, I don’t mind the sound of asymptomatic.
As to the rest of the conversation, there are a lot of big words that I’ve never heard and don’t have the time to look up. But since no one I know has ever died from or been seriously ill with something I’ve never heard of, I’m not going to worry about it too much.
Although I have to admit, that iatrogenesis sounds pretty nasty. I hope I never catch that.
Th1Th2,
Your arguments just get progressively more ridiculous. I didn’t let my children crawl on dirt or burning coal. I managed to catch the dead leaf in my child’s hand and remove it en route to the child’s mouth; I didn’t blame the child for doing what children naturally do. I used a vacuum cleaner. I didn’t expose my child to other children who had any signs or symptoms of infections. I did everything possible to prevent their exposure to pathogens. I also did what responsible parents do who understand the principles of immunology: I had them vaccinated with every available vaccine.
If you’re going to continue to comment here, please show us your evidence that children who have not been vaccinated are healthier, or that children can be reliably protected from vaccine-preventable diseases without vaccination. If the best you can come up with is the cop-out that you haven’t seen a hospital that caters to the unvaccinated, that indicates that you don’t have a scrap of evidence to support your ridiculous assertions. We have a mountain of evidence to show that vaccination reduces the rate of vaccine-preventable diseases and has even eradicated one (smallpox) from the face of the earth. Despite all your verbiage, you have given us NOTHING to contradict those facts.
Chris,
“Only in its little fairy tale land can it magically know when another child is contagious. What a laugh riot of stupidity.”
Wow, that’s quite understandable for someone who’s not familiar with clinical assessment and actual P.E.
“Oh, and further proof it has never been around children… especially the asymptomatic child who kept re-infecting his siblings with strep throat.”
I’ll blame the parent for not knowing what to do with regards to infection control.
micheleinmichigan,
“Or I can…
Get my child vaccinated.”
Funny. By doing this, you’ve just inoculated your child with pathogen-associated crap. You want them to be protected but in reality, you just took a shortcut to infection.
The Troll:
Do you even know what “asymptomatic” means? Do you even know how to control the secretions of a six year old child? Oh, wait. It has been established that you have never even been around a child, so your “parenting advice” is all the more amusing. Especially when you don’t understand why your comments are so foolish.
Dr. Hall:
On the value of teaching a child with a severe communication disorder sign language:
When my younger was eight months old and my older son was exactly two years and four days older I had them in the newly remodeled basement. It was a combination playroom and adult hobby center (computer and sewing, with laundry thrown in on the side). It was carpeted, with a door separating it from the laundry room (and another door went to a bathroom if you are really that anal).
As I was trying to figure out possibly the first version of Quicken, my oldest came to me and signed “baby spider.” So I went to the baby and swept his mouth with my finger and out came a very alive crawling beetle.
My older son had no spoken words (seizure disorder at birth… which he grew out of, only to get another seizure from a now vaccine preventable disease), his speech/language therapy at the local children’s hospital gave him a seventy word sign language vocabulary. While that list of words did not include “bug” or “insect”, the more visual sign of “spider” got the message across.
Harriet Hall,
“I also did what responsible parents do who understand the principles of immunology: I had them vaccinated with every available vaccine. ”
You should have protected them from any pathogen-associated elements but you know you did not.
“We have a mountain of evidence to show that vaccination reduces the rate of vaccine-preventable diseases and has even eradicated one (smallpox) from the face of the earth. ”
If there’s anything that is being reduced are the symptoms of infection vaccines are causing. You can put lipstick on a pig but it’s still a pig.
“If there’s anything that is being reduced are the symptoms of infection vaccines are causing.”
What does this even mean?
And incidentally, what do you think happened to smallpox?
Dr. Hall, may I mention something that a very wise step-mother told me?
Um, yeah… what we are dealing with is a dyed in the wool “germ denier.” This is a person who has read some words and thinks they know something. What?… we will never know. That is because it not something that exists on this planet.
Th1Th2 is the classic closed mind. It has educated itself through Google U. with some basics, but it fails in the details (thanks DeeTee!).
We have even learned that it has never dealt with very young children. For some reason it thinks that A toddler would readily know which is the safe path. Yeah, right!? Obviously it has never had to pull a child out of traffic, or see a barker rescue that same toddler from a tiny Ferris wheel!
Th1Th2 has never dealt with real children. It has read some references, but does not understand them. Right now it is only an amusement of how stupid some people can be.
I know it is foolish to feed a troll, but I would really like to hear how Th1Th2 explains the demise of smallpox.
It must be a bot. A human Th troll would never have survived the ravages of childhood.
“Funny. By doing this, you’ve just inoculated your child with pathogen-associated crap. You want them to be protected but in reality, you just took a shortcut to infection.”
Yes, you said that before. You also noted that it was an infection with no or fewer symptoms. From your smallpox reference, it appears it is also an infection that is not contagious or is contagious with no symptoms. So I am philosophically infected with smallpox, but in the pragmatic sense, I have only a tiny scar and never had a life threatening form of the illness.
Makes sense to me.
LOLWUT?
Do you think Nature can be divided into “pathogen” and “not a pathogen”?
Th1Th2, the whole mystical alt med thing has been around since the dawn of human history. Yet I don’t see tribes of humans looking really hot into their 50s and living active lives into their 100s.
Have you considered that the alties might be wrong?
Just curious,
Does WordPress allow site admins the option of associating certain fonts colors (e.g., pink) or styles (e.g., Comic Sans MS) with particular commenters?
I’ve been highly amused by Thing1Thing2.
Sterile babies? What planet does he/she live on? Certainly not earth.
As a midwife, I’ve never seen a sterile birth. I’ve seen plenty of vaginal births and c-sections, neither of which are sterile. And the babies certainly aren’t sterile after birth.
Now, the amniotic fluid before the sac breaks is sterile (amniotic fluid, baby urine, all sorts of lanugo and stuff) but can still cause BIG problems if there is meconium in it. After the sac ruptures, no way is the fluid OR the baby sterile. All that nice fluid just whistles “come and get it, boys” to all the bacteria that live in mom’s vagina. And whether mom is habituated to that bacteria or not, baby has to get his/her immune system revved up fast just to survive childbirth without a life-threatening infection from “inocuous” bacteria. (Not counting the babies that die/become very ill from bacteria that mom may not know she has because SHE is asymptomatic but can be lethal to a baby – like beta strep)
And really, breastfeeding? Sterile? What did she do, boil her boobs? (Owww…the mental picture just made me cringe). And no, washing with antibacterial soap does not kill all the germs, and your nipples shouldn’t be washed with soap when nursing anyway (too drying).
And tell me where my kids got thrush from. I had a vaginal birth (never have had a yeast infection), breastfed solely (they never had a bottle till getting ready to put them in daycare) but they both developed thrush in their first 6 weeks of life. And no, they had had no vaccines since they were born just before Hep B was a recommended vaccine for newborns unless mom was positive.
And I REALLY loved her “babies should never get hurt” mentality. Obviously, I was a highly negligent mom who let her kids run barefoot in summer, eat sand (I didn’t feed it to them but boy, my youngest loved to eat it…), eat ants, clover, and other things, get cuts, bruises and lacerations while playing outside. Strange; both kids are healthy happy adults now, fully vaccinated. And both of them plan on caring for any children they may have in the same way. Our kids didn’t grow up in a sterile bubble world, nor will their children.
“And tell me where my kids got thrush from. I had a vaginal birth (never have had a yeast infection), breastfed solely (they never had a bottle till getting ready to put them in daycare) but they both developed thrush in their first 6 weeks of life.”
This is a nitpick, but I thought that thrush was merely the overpopulation of yeast that normally inhabits moist areas. So everyone has it, but sometimes it goes crazy, due to competitive bacteria depopulation, or some such.
Also since we are sharing real parent stories. My daughter was one of those put everything into her mouth toddler/preschoolers. Sometimes we have a population burst of ladybugs in the house (they hatch when the sun shines on the windows). When I wasn’t looking she would secretly scoop up a fallen ladybug carcass and pop it in her mouth. Apparently ladybugs taste awful! The look on her face… But still, a month or months later with another ladybug hatching, the same thing would happen.
Also the time that the pet turtle disappears and was latter discovered, gentling cradled in my (then) toddler sister’s mouth is a beloved family story. Both sister and turtle survived.
But joking aside, clearly the amount of restriction and supervision of children that is assumed by TH1TH2′s method would greatly hamper a child’s typical motor, sensory, and social interaction with the world that developmental experts suggest is so important, particularly in the first three years of life.
@nybgrus
I pulled up the newest data, wrote up an analysis…Never managed to get a response from Sid about it. Anything you want to say about it here bucko?
——————–
I found your “analysis” rather comical and felt it’s inherent illogic was more discrediting than could any comments I could generate.
couldHarriet Hall,
“I know it is foolish to feed a troll, but I would really like to hear how Th1Th2 explains the demise of smallpox.”
Surveillance and containment. We could have also eradicated varicella if only people breaks the chain of infection, that is, by stopping this nonsense inoculation and pox parties.
Chris,
“Do you even know what “asymptomatic” means? Do you even know how to control the secretions of a six year old child?”
Be specific. What kind of secretions are you talking about? A normal physiologic process is a sign of a functioning living creature, not a symptom.
Th1Th2,
Surveillance and containment? Please explain. The stop-smallpox campaign did not rely on identifying cases and isolating them from all contact with other people. You say we could have eradicated varicella by stopping inoculation and avoiding deliberate exposure, yet huge numbers of people were inoculated with smallpox vaccine. According to you, inoculation constitutes deliberate exposure and causes an infection. So why didn’t smallpox continue to thrive? Something doesn’t add up.
micheleinmichigan,
“Yes, you said that before. You also noted that it was an infection with no or fewer symptoms. From your smallpox reference, it appears it is also an infection that is not contagious or is contagious with no symptoms. So I am philosophically infected with smallpox, but in the pragmatic sense, I have only a tiny scar and never had a life threatening form of the illness.”
You were infected with vaccinia virus, not smallpox, but hey it’s “‘lesser of the two evils”. You had the chance to remain uninfected until you asked for it.
Curious, how can you stop people being infected from varicella when it is infectious at least two days before the poxes appear?
Do you propose that everyone get tested for possible infection every day?
Over here, you’ve had Th1Th2 & Sid Offit.
At Shannon Rosa’s article
http://shotofprevention.com/2010/10/04/why-my-child-with-autism-is-fully-vaccinated/
at Shot of Prevention,
anti-vaccination perseveration has been provided by
John Fryer Chemist, Beth B, AWEtismMom, Rita O RN, Sara, Kelly, Joe (the fellow says his son had a vaccine reaction “a knot forms the size of a mans fist so hot it could burn you to touch it.”), Pam, Virginia Young, Janine Marsha McClelland, and Toby Dawson
The prize winners for most words without actual intellectual content are Joe (who I believe is also Joe Harris) and Marsha McClelland.
But Th1Th2′s total and complete lack of information on normal child development wins a prize, too. I don’t know what to call it.
Chris,
“Curious, how can you stop people being infected from varicella when it is infectious at least two days before the poxes appear?”
Well, did it say varicella is only contagious until the rash appears?
Does the varicella vaccine come with label? I find it amusing though how could people have possibly ignore the MOST important ingredient in the vaccine (VZV).
“Do you propose that everyone get tested for possible infection every day?”
No but I hope everyone should be responsible enough at least for themselves but if they can’t do that, then stop infecting others.
“You were infected with vaccinia virus, not smallpox, but hey it’s “‘lesser of the two evils”. You had the chance to remain uninfected until you asked for it.”
Nope, I was vaccinated as a child. Weren’t you?
Also, my 7 year old was vaccinated for smallpox (before 12 months of age, pre-adoption). I wonder how many folks have immunity today.
Harriet Hall,
Was there an epidemic of smallpox as a result of surveillance-containment campaign alone?
micheleinmichigan,
“Nope, I was vaccinated as a child. Weren’t you?”
Well, can I be vaccinated without even mentioning any pathogen let lone partaking it?
But to answer your question, no I never was inoculated with vaccinia virus.
micheleinmichigan:
The annual ladybug/boxelder bug invasion is underway, as the critters seek a nice toasty spot to hibernate. One interesting thing about ladybugs and boxelder bugs is that they have a very similar defense mechanism — they are capable of emitting a noxious chemical. It stinks and tastes terrible — and is not all that easy to wash off. Soap will do the job, but you have to really scrub. I learned that the hard way after a particularly clumsy attempt to capture some by hand so I could release them outside.
I know exactly what your daughter tasted. EWWWW!!!!!!!
Harriet Hall,
“You say we could have eradicated varicella by stopping inoculation and avoiding deliberate exposure, yet huge numbers of people were inoculated with smallpox vaccine. According to you, inoculation constitutes deliberate exposure and causes an infection. So why didn’t smallpox continue to thrive? Something doesn’t add up.”
People were being inoculated with a vaccine that does not cause smallpox but rather vaccinia, hence, the vaccine was halted to not create new epidemic. Imagine if Jenner had to use antigen-specific variola virus vaccine, it would be on the current immunization schedule.
Smallpox epidemic is a result of improper and faulty infection control. And deaths are almost always iatrogenic concomitant with poor health among patients.
Th1Th2 asks, “Was there an epidemic of smallpox as a result of surveillance-containment campaign alone?”
Your question doesn’t even make sense. The campaign was not a surveillance-containment campaign. It was a campaign to immunize people to prevent spread of the disease. The control efforts did not cause an epidemic of smallpox; they prevented it. No disease has ever been eradicated by surveillance-containment measures alone. Smallpox was eradicated by a vaccination campaign. Even if you tried to identify and quarantine every patient with smallpox, you could not identify those in the pre-clinical stages: they would be able to transmit the disease to the unvaccinated but not to the vaccinated. It was only when enough people were vaccinated that the disease was no longer able to spread.
Th1Th2 says “the vaccine was halted to not create new epidemic”
No, the vaccine was discontinued after smallpox had been eradicated because there was no longer any need for any vaccine. The smallpox vaccine never caused a cowpox epidemic. And even if the vaccine had been based on antigen-specific variola virus, it would no longer be on the current immunization schedule because there is no longer any smallpox.
It is simply not true that smallpox deaths were iatrogenic. Plenty of healthy people died, both before and after the development of vaccines.
“Smallpox epidemic is a result of improper and faulty infection control. And deaths are almost always iatrogenic concomitant with poor health among patients.”
Just keep on believing it. I have never heard anything so stupid in a long time.
Harriet Hall,
“The control efforts did not cause an epidemic of smallpox; they prevented it. ”
People from the Philippines had experienced their worst smallpox epidemic and mortality during systematic smallpox vaccination.
“Smallpox was eradicated by a vaccination campaign.”
Since the year they integrated surveillance-containment into the vaccination campaign, it only took them about 9 years to eradicate smallpox. And how long have they been vaccinating people since Jenner discovered the vaccine? For without the surveillance-containment, the vaccine could still be well alive today.
“Even if you tried to identify and quarantine every patient with smallpox, you could not identify those in the pre-clinical stages: they would be able to transmit the disease to the unvaccinated but not to the vaccinated.”
It is obvious smallpox had thrived despite years of vaccination sans effective infection control. Not to mention chances of misdiagnosis and improper treatment.
I have a friend whom I am quite fond of. He’s a smart guy, but a bit of a misanthrope. One thing he does to entertain himself is go onto message boards and then bait passionate people into dealing with absurd arguments that he thinks are funny to make.
Th1Th2 is just having a good time with us skeptics. Let’s face it, a lot of us can be Serious (with a capital S) when it comes to SBM and pseudoscience and cranks. People who are extra Serious are the most fun to mess with.
Seeing the exasperation pour out of your fingertips as you bang madly on your keyboard, pounding out paragraph after paragraph of passionate arguments and facts, only to be stymied by his/her half-comprehensible jumble of words gives Th1Th2 a good chuckle.
Normally, I’d say that Th1Th2′s mission is harmless, but I think what this message board does is a valuable public service. People who are actually conflicted about the evidence for a treatment come here to get a straight answer. An absurd, incomprehensible, comment full of baseless fear mongering may turn people off to this blog’s advice, which I think is unacceptable.
The only two options are to ignore people that we’ve identified as trolls or to ban them. Despite the high caliber of most commenters here, I don’t think we’ll be able to effectively ignore Th1Th2 — so I vote for a ban.
Harriet Hall,
“It was only when enough people were vaccinated that the disease was no longer able to spread.”
Do I hear herd immunity? More than 80% of the population were vaccinated. Come on give me a ballpark figure?
Harriet Hall,
“No, the vaccine was discontinued after smallpox had been eradicated because there was no longer any need for any vaccine. The smallpox vaccine never caused a cowpox epidemic. And even if the vaccine had been based on antigen-specific variola virus, it would no longer be on the current immunization schedule because there is no longer any smallpox.”
How could there be not a new epidemic, when people were being inoculated with a different stuff, vaccinia instead of variola. This is so far the worst vaccine in history but I am glad they stopped it.
“How could there be not a new epidemic, when people were being inoculated with a different stuff, vaccinia instead of variola. ”
Yes, the millions of deaths every year caused by cowpox infection….who could ever forget what never happened.
And being innoculated ‘with a different stuff’ as you put it –you don’t understand cross-reactivity? You don’t understand that Vaccinia vaccines are really pretty darned good at generating immunity to multiple pox viri? And why would we develop a Variola vaccine when we already had a Vaccinia vaccine that granted protection? Variola is a bit more problematic to deal with in the lab. Basic cost/benefit analysis.
Oh and yeah, I have ‘faith’ that the teeny lil pucker on my arm from the Vaccinia vaccine will protect me, if not from your misinformation, from any exposure to cow pox I might encounter at work. And no that is not even close to an ad hominem attack
Th1Th2 says “People from the Philippines had experienced their worst smallpox epidemic and mortality during systematic smallpox vaccination.” There is no reason to think that the smallpox vaccination was responsible for the epidemic. The epidemic occurred in spite of the vaccine, not because of it.
Surveillance/containment is important, but by itself that strategy has never succeeded in abolishing an infectious disease. It was surveillance/containment/vaccination that succeeded.
How could there not be a new epidemic? Because the smallpox vaccine was not capable of causing an epidemic.
Smallpox eradication was one of the greatest achievements of modern scientific medicine, yet you call the smallpox vaccine “the worst vaccine in history.” No, it is arguably the best vaccine in history because of what it was able to achieve despite its imperfections.
The Troll — don’t feed him
This is a nitpick, but for layfolks like me the smallpox vaccination program was discontinued because of the eradication of smallpox but also because it was higher risk than the average vaccine. This, changed the risk/benefit from when smallpox was prevalent. Does that make it the worst vaccine in history? Doubtful.
A while back I heard an interview with Dr. D.A. Henderson (previous WHO director, global eradication of smallpox campaign) on Science Friday, NPR. He talks about the considerations and maneuvering around the idea of re-vaccinating for smallpox in 2003, when there was the weaponized smallpox scare. The science folks may have already heard all this, but as a layperson, I found it very interesting.
It’s really quite scary considering that it appears that White House staff were pushing for vaccination against the advice of the medical experts they consulted. http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=120613268
Calli Arcale – yes, my husband say a ladybug flew into his mouth ounce and it was awful. (For those of you considering ladybug stew.)
#
# Th1Th2
“Well, can I be vaccinated without even mentioning any pathogen let lone partaking it?”
I don’t understand this sentence.
“But to answer your question, no I never was inoculated with vaccinia virus.”
Ah, so I’m guessing you’re of that younger generation that didn’t have to take the risk of either vaccination or getting the actual disease. Kids these days.
Maz – but we’ve learned so much! And we’ve yet to discuss proper child shrink wrapping techniques.
I’d suggest a layer of bubble wrap followed by that self-adhesive plastic. I’m still trying to figure out the diaper situation.
@micheleinmichigan, Maz and Calli: It’s a good thing that Th1Th2 is here to teach us all we didn’t know about raising children. Aren’t you sad that you didn’t know all this when the kids were little? /snark
As I pointed out before, Th1Th2 – if you would read “Inside the Epidemics” you would learn that smallpox was eradicated world-wide by: (almost mandatory) vaccination, isolation and quarantine. None of those things worked alone, but all together means the last case of WILD smallpox was 30 years ago. So, since the chance of catching smallpox (OR cowpox) was basically eradicated, the risk of the vaccine was greater than the chance of catching the disease. Thus, the vaccine was removed from the vaccination schedule. Now, if we could do the same with measles, mumps, chickenpox and rubella, we could discontinue THOSE vaccines too. However, too many ignorant people refuse vaccines.
By the way, Th1Th2: would you PLEASE review what asysmptomatic means? Your response to Chris “Be specific. What kind of secretions are you talking about? A normal physiologic process is a sign of a functioning living creature, not a symptom.” is ignorant. How do you tell if something is a “normal physiologic process” as opposed to an asymptomatic sign of infection? Do you have some super power? Please enlighten those of us who are not as super.
Josie,
“Yes, the millions of deaths every year caused by cowpox infection….who could ever forget what never happened”
No, not death. Cowpox is rarely a fatal disease. However, millions of people, those who got the vaccine, contracted vaccinia as evidenced by the remnant scar.
“And being innoculated ‘with a different stuff’ as you put it –you don’t understand cross-reactivity?”
Duh. Ancient Chinese had used antigen-specific variola virus (variolation using dried smallpox scabs applied intranasally) centuries before Jenner’s experiment. Of course, if he’s going to perform this ancient method, he will be accused of bioterrorism (oh I forgot they are oblivious about the term during that time). So he continued with his dumb experiment by cross-infecting a different microorganism to produce blisters similar to that of a smallpox but to a lesser and mild form. If variolation had resulted in imminent transmission of tetanus and syphilis, vaccination, on the other hand, had caused further transmission of staph and group A β-hemolytic strep infections. Not to mention other sequelae from repeated exposure to superinfection.
Now that’s how cross-reactivity really works. One classical example are the nosocomial infections.
“Variola is a bit more problematic to deal with in the lab. ”
Only a heartless fool would attempt to conceal the virus, modify it by any means, have the people take it and to tell them that they don’t have it. A pig with a lipstick is still a pig.
“Oh and yeah, I have ‘faith’ that the teeny lil pucker on my arm from the Vaccinia vaccine will protect me, if not from your misinformation, from any exposure to cow pox I might encounter at work”
You shouldn’t be concerned at all because you had it already. You failed to protect yourself from vaccinia that’s why you have the scar. And that scar is a clear testament. You’ve got punked.
Dawn,
“Now, if we could do the same with measles, mumps, chickenpox and rubella, we could discontinue THOSE vaccines too. However, too many ignorant people refuse vaccines.”
Nobody wants to become a dumping site of hideous pathogenic microorganisms. Name a vaccine that is NOT associated with pathogens. Until then, children should be kept away from infectious sources like vaccines and from sick/contagious individuals. The goal is to prevent them from getting infected thereby breaking the chain of disease transmission.
What vaccines do, by their inherent nature, is resurrecting diseases by promoting infections yet people take it because dumb doctors disguised them as ‘immune boosters’ just to pull a fast one.
Th1Th2,
Keeping children away from all infectious sources is simply not possible. Infected but asymptomatic children can fly to the US from other countries in hours and can expose our children before they show any signs or symptoms of the disease. The value of immunization has been demonstrated repeatedly in various countries around the world. When immunization rates drop, the incidence of disease rises, then immunization rates rise and the incidence of disease drops again. How can you dismiss that evidence?
Dawn,
“How do you tell if something is a “normal physiologic process” as opposed to an asymptomatic sign of infection? Do you have some super power? Please enlighten those of us who are not as super.”
It’s easy. When a person is known to have received a live vaccine and did not manifest any symptoms, then that is asymptomatic infection. Or when a person is known to have been exposed to a highly communicable disease, however, did not exhibit any related symptoms, is considered an asymptomatic infection unless proven otherwise. But when these two individuals start to cough or sneeze for whatever reason is a normal physiologic reflex. And parents, as I expect them to be, should be teaching their young ones to cover their mouth and nose at all times when someone coughs or sneezes regardless of the source or just grab the child and stay away.
“And parents, as I expect them to be, should be teaching their young ones to cover their mouth and nose at all times when someone coughs or sneezes regardless of the source or just grab the child and stay away.”
I have to tell you this, my kids only “elbows up” about 1/4 of the times they cough, in spite of my frequent reminders. Beyond that, I won’t be parenting to fit your contagion suppression model. If that bother’s you, I suggest a bio-hazard suit or some such.
Do you realize how Howard Hughes you are sounding?
Also, I have no problems with “infections” that don’t hurt me or others. I have no problems with pigs lipsticked or au naturel.
Maz,
“Despite the high caliber of most commenters here, I don’t think we’ll be able to effectively ignore Th1Th2 — so I vote for a ban.”
Well, that’s a nice way of saying you don’t have any intelligent things to say, so you are soliciting an emotional appeal to ban me. Too many ‘high caliber’ personas always spoil the broth and that’s what I see everyday in the hospital.
Th1Th2
“Only a heartless fool would attempt to conceal the virus, modify it by any means, have the people take it and to tell them that they don’t have it. A pig with a lipstick is still a pig.”
How does Variola being problematic to deal with in a lab have anything to do with concealing a virus?? Problematic in the lab refers to Variola requiring BSL 3/4 facilities vs a much easier BSL 2 setup. So why go to the extra effort of dealing with a more difficult substance when the easier substance will do the job?
You should probably have given your comments on cross-reactivity a lil proof read. They make no sense –bioterrorism? No, even if Jenner was still alive he would not be considered a bioterrorist. It is pointless to speculate on what he could have accomplished with modern tool and perspective.
What is useful, is that even today we are making progress on even more efficient vaccines not only for smallpox (yes, with Vaccinia derived peptides) but with many other pathogens as well.
And no, I have never had small pox or cow pox. I had the vaccination so that I would run less of a risk for developing the disease should I suffer an exposure.
Now that this discussion is pretty played out I have more important things to attend to –I have a World of Warcraft patch to enjoy after my day of work here at the Evil Heartless Scientist’s Coven of Declining Health and Public Infections.
Harriet Hall,
“When immunization rates drop, the incidence of disease rises, then immunization rates rise and the incidence of disease drops again. How can you dismiss that evidence?”
It’s the symptomatology of the disease that’s being manipulated. If the majority of the population are being inoculated, then that majority group will definitely have asymptomatic infections or suclinical form of the disease. But do they count them as such? No, they don’t. They are excluded. If there are symptoms, they treat them as being side-effects, adverse reactions or even complications of the vaccine. So that makes the minority (unvaccinated) who had been infected naturally (intentional or not) to become the center of controversy as evidenced by the medical authority always exaggerating their numbers to the media.
Th1Th2,
Balderdash! We have explained the facts to you over and over and you refuse to accept them. You live in a world of your own.
“The only two options are to ignore people that we’ve identified as trolls or to ban them. Despite the high caliber of most commenters here, I don’t think we’ll be able to effectively ignore Th1Th2 — so I vote for a ban.”
Maz – Perhaps you already know this, but SBM very rarely bans commentors. I think I’ve seen one ban in the last year and that was of a person who had already been banned, snuck back in and was insultingly, uninformatively provocative on all topics.
I genuinely believe in respecting the majority of people’s decision making skills when they are presented with accurate information. They will find that in this thread. TH1TH2 argument may be one they hear from friends somewhere else online. Here there is the opportunity for them to see the opposing information and thought process.
Of course, there are people who will only focus on the scare mongering. That is the reality of life and here at least the real information is available if they are willing to read it.
Just IMO. Oh and I think I’ve seen your friend in all sorts of place on line. Tell him to screw off, from me.
Boy, is it a weird world we live in.
If nothing else, the fear mongering makes for a good exposure therapy script if you have a contagion form of OCD.
EHSCDHP? oy, government and their acronyms. Who can remember them?
Th1Th2,
After a long bout of arguing with creationists online, I realized that I needed some ground rules in order to maintain my health and sanity in the face of ignorance.
Rule #1:
Always be willing to change your mind if provided appropriate evidence.
Rule #2:
Never try and convince someone of something if they have obviously disregarded rule #1.
Your steadfast refusal to directly confront evidence with evidence, your habit of talking directly past whoever your arguing with and the totally absurd claims/recommendations that you make on the regular have convinced me that you do not follow Rule #1.
Whether you are actually just a fanatic who thinks it’s impossible that you’re wrong, a misanthropic troll who thinks this whole thing is hilarious or some other sort of character is irrelevant. The bottom line is that you actively detract from the quality of the discussion on this blog and, if it were up to me, you’d no longer be able to post here.
So, in conclusion, I have lots of intelligent things to say — just not to you.
Maz,
“Rule #1:
Always be willing to change your mind if provided appropriate evidence”
Whoever you are, you are funny. What is your evidence to prove that the pig with a lipstick is NOT a pig? Like I said, give one example of a vaccine that is not pathogen-associated? Until then, your rule number 2 does not apply.
micheleinmichigan,
“If that bother’s you, I suggest a bio-hazard suit or some such.”
Or simply reject ALL vaccines since they are truly biological hazards.
“Examples of biohazards include microbes, anthrax, vaccines, and cell cultures.” http://www.ilpi.com/msds/faq/partb.html
Oh BTW, a vero cell culture smallpox vaccine is on its way to humans.
@Th1Th2: Why on earth shouldn’t a vaccine be based on a pathogen? The idea is to teach your immune system to recognize the pathogen by showing it a version (acellular, killed, exposure under the amount known to lead to disease) so it recognizes it quickly and prevents illness if you are exposed to the full-blown disease.
If I want my children to recognize my parents, who live thousands of miles away, I show them pictures of my parents. I don’t show them pictures of flowers. Then, when my parents arrive, the children recognize them. Or, on the other hand, if there are people I want my children to avoid, I would show them pictures of the “bad people” so they can recognize them and prevent bad results.
Now, I’ll leave you to your hearts and flowers world, where no one is ill when you and your children are around, you never encounter asymptomatic people, rooms/buildings/the air is sterilized before you go anywhere. I’ll stay here in the real world, eat healthy food, exercise, enjoy the outdoors and get my immunizations.
“Oh BTW, a vero cell culture smallpox vaccine is on its way to humans.”
You realize that a smallpox vaccines developed now would be for use as defense in the event of biological weapons attack. Right?
So I’m not sure what you meant by “on it’s way to humans”
except to sound scaaaaary. (you have to use the Count Scary.)
Th1Th2,
“What is your evidence to prove that the pig with a lipstick is NOT a pig?”
I’m not entirely sure what you’re on about. I would argue that a pig with lipstick IS a pig. I’d be willing to change my mind if you were to provide evidence that the application of lipstick somehow changed the nature of the animal, such that it could no longer be a pig.
I haven’t really read any of your comments since somewhere around comment 20 or 30, but I would never argue that a vaccine has no connection to pathogens. As Dawn says, it has to be from a pathogen in order to work.
Anyhow, you’re obviously happy in your Tower Of Self Aggrandizing so until you are ready to reflect on your ignorance for a second, I’ll be signing off.
Sorry, game over. You lose.
Dawn,
“Or, on the other hand, if there are people I want my children to avoid, I would show them pictures of the “bad people” so they can recognize them and prevent bad results.”
That’s the reason you should leave teaching to teachers. Kids are taught to avoid “bad people” and to stay away because these people cause harm. Doctors and parents are the real life persecutors. They cannot just teach without them having to sacrifice the children to have a taste of the “bad people”. If doctors and parents teach their kids on how to recognize criminals like rapists, they teach them by intentionally subjecting their naive children into a minor sexual assault, less dangerous than rape. So vaccines are actual “hands-on” experience, not just recognition, for children because having had experience a minor sexual harassment, dealing with rape will be a lot easier for them to handle in the event it happens.
Oh please leave the storytelling behind and let’s deal with the reality.
Th1Th2,
I think I realized what you were trying to do with the pig and lipstick thing.
If a disease is a pig, you propose that a vaccine is simply a pig in lipstick.
I would counter that a vaccine is more like a pork chop.
Check and mate, good sir.
Maz,
Duh. Regardless of what you serve the customer, whether it’s from the finest cuts of fresh meats or the dreadful double-dead meat http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-dead_meat, is still the same thing, you’re still serving P-I-G, PIG!
Just so you know what PIGS look like. http://img.wonkette.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/pig-flu.jpg
You really sound you need serious help, join this group.
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Yeah-can-I-have-a-cheeseburger-with-no-cheese-and-a-diet-water-Thanks/116829981663131
“Scientific thinkers”? Next please.
I think a vaccine is more like some pork scratchings, personally.
Here’s an example of Th troll:
http://www.interestment.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/pork-scratchings-380×284.jpg
Or maybe a vaccine is more like pig manure. Th troll would know about that too.
http://www.h2ogeo.upc.es/proyectos/nitrat/Purines.JPG
Th1Th2,
Misrepresenting your opponents point is a surefire sign that you’re desperate.
You claim that, if a disease were a pig a vaccine would be a pig with lipstick.
I corrected your improper analogy. If a disease is a pig, a vaccine is a pork chop.
While a pork chop COMES from a pig, a point on which we have no disagreement, it is not (in itself) a pig. A pig, you see, is an animal that generally engages in pig-like behaviors. Pork is the edible (read: useful) part of said animal.
A pathogenic virus/bacteria is an entity that can cause disease and infection in humans. A vaccine is made of a small recognizable (read: useful) component of said entity.
Of course, you already know exactly what I am saying because you intentionally misrepresented it. In the off chance that your mistake was the result of profound ignorance, however, I figured it was safe to talk to you like a child (since, either way, you’re acting like one).
Toodles!
Maz,
“A pig, you see, is an animal that generally engages in pig-like behaviors.”
That’s a shocker. And a human is an animal that generally engages in human-like behaviors. I get it.
Do humans have ‘pork chops’ too?
Well, humans eat pork chops, which is one way for pork DNA to get into humans. Another way is to eat bacon.
Bacon… Yum!
“Do humans have ‘pork chops’ too?”
Yes, Charles Mingus shows his chops in Goodbye Pork Pie Hat.
Chris,
“Well, humans eat pork chops, which is one way for pork DNA to get into humans. Another way is to eat bacon.
Bacon… Yum!”
Is that the reason why Americans are morbidly fat? They also eat tons of chicken meat a year but I have not seen one who has grown a feather yet. They are just getting fatter as the time goes by.
Not much on staying on topic are you, Thing1Thing2? You wandered off, and I mocked you.
And it went completely over your pointy little head.
Face it, you have buried yourself so deep that you are not being taken seriously, and are being openly mocked. Deal with it.
Chris,
Come on. The last time you attempted to pin me is with the varicella question IIRC. I thought my response has stumped and humiliated you that you won’t reply anymore except by goofing around with silly analogies.
Huh? Who cares? This thread has shown that you have never been around children, have fantasy notions about keeping away from pathogens, know nothing about vaccines and are in a word: a joke.
Although I’m a bit late, I still want to comment the situation in Finland (greetings from Finland and thanks for this great site!).
There was indeed a quite remarkable increase in the amount of narcolepsy cases; normally there are something like 2-7 cases a year in children and now it’s been over 20, if the numbers in media are correct (and they might not be!) – I couln’t find any figures in official web pages. So it seems that something is going on. The reason for this is still open. The connection to Pandemrix is only time-related so far, and the investigations regarding the possible connection are still on-going, I think that is the reason why the results haven’t been seen in media (there aren’t any yet). Well, I can guess that if no connection is found, there will be no big banner headlines in media anyway (but if a connection would be found, the media-circus would never end). The results from Sweden were only preliminary, I understood that it included only part of Sweden (maybe Stockholm surroundings), so they are continuing to look this a little deeper also.
What is wery strange, IMO, is that there has been increase in case numbers only in Finland and Sweden (we had even more cases than the Swedes), and possibly some in France (I read some news that said there was some cases in there, but it didn’t say if they were “extra”, above the baseline). Pandemrix has been used widely in Europe, and the amount of children who got it is quite large – so against that it seems highly unlikely that it would be the cause (unless the tissue types in Finland and Sweden are playing a role – but we are not even relatives althought we are neighbours). But what could cause this increase in these two countries only, that’s quite peculiar I would say.
The media went totally crazy about this, it was quite depressing to follow it. It seems that correctness and validity of the stories play no role, anything is claimed, if it just sells.
Sorry about the possible misspellings – I’m too lazy to check it…
Tanja,
That’s pretty intriguing, I’ll have to follow the story.
Sorry that your post got buried under this silly flame war.
“Not counting the babies that die/become very ill from bacteria that mom may not know she has because SHE is asymptomatic but can be lethal to a baby – like beta strep”
I lost my first baby at 18 weeks gestation and my second child was born 13 weeks premature because of beta strep. Stupid bacteria keeps invading my womb, I have no idea why. I was on self-imposed pelvic rest for my second pregnancy and it didn’t help. So, yeah, people who think we can magically avoid all possible pathogens are insane.
Steve Novella wrote:
“The appearance of narcolepsy in about a dozen children and adults was thought to perhaps be associated with the Pandemrix flu vaccine, and Finland promptly suspended use of this brand of flu vaccine. The possible association was widely reported – but the follow up investigation was not.”
I too want to comment that although the Finnish media did an awful job regarding the Pandemrix and narcolepsy cases, the study is still on-going, in fact, it’s still pretty much in its early stages here in Finland.
Few links in Finnish, a Google translator might help:
http://www.thl.fi/fi_FI/web/fi/rokotteet/narkolepsia_ja_sikainfluenssarokote
http://www.thl.fi/fi_FI/web/fi/sikainfluenssa/usein_kysyttya/narkolepsia_ja_sikainfluenssarokote