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211 thoughts on “Joe Mercola: Quackery pays

  1. weing says:

    “William my cat has antibody titres to all the so called infectious feline diseases and has never had a vaccine how do you account for that?”

    How do I account for that? Simple. You are lying. Show us the lab report of all those titres.

  2. germsarefriends says:

    Hat off to Sarah! Great job taking on all these “science” fanatics! So much so in their fanatic adulation of science that they tend to sweep away the hard evidence of a diseased world, in favour of lab results and paper theories. Yep, the germ theory’s brought us into this “enlightened” antibiotics era, where we’re all in fear of germs and each other, fighting adversaries all the time. Long live the terrain theory!!! :) It is time that the paradigm changes, and it already started.

  3. sarah007 says:

    Weing, wong again. Many people who are not vaccinating animals are obtaining these certs, you obviously live in the dark ages of provaxx. It is nice to know that you actually have no idea what these antibody markers mean. It is well known that if you take a cat or dog to lots of shows prior to the test the levels wil be high. If you then take the same animal to no shows, ie no interaction there will be low titres.

    What this means is that a healthy animal has a natural immunity that is infinitely adaptable whereas a vaccinated animal has a disabled system unable to adapt and more likely to move toward atopy.

    Love your scientific enquiry too, also I have never wormed my cat and she has no parasites in her gut either, how do you account for that.

    See the septic scientist doesnt even have the facility to ask questions, you vomit out ‘liar’ because what I am saying challenges what you believe to be true.

    That aint scientific thinking mate.

  4. weing says:

    So what you are saying is that you are, in fact, a liar. You do not have any lab report of your cat’s titres to support your claim. You just have wishful thinking, which you call scientific, to support your claim. So, you are not only lying to us, you are also lying to yourself. You are also asking us, and anyone else reading this, to believe a liar. No thank you.

  5. WilliamLawrenceUtridge says:

    if you studied the papers of the time nothing was isolated as causative of pandemic flu

    Tissue samples preserved from the 1918 pandemic were analyzed and the specific strain identified:

    http://www.pnas.org/content/96/4/1651.full

    Are you saying papers from 1918, before the world even knew what a virus was, are a more reliable source of information than a study from 1999?

    Typhoid Mary died in isolation, not prison, as she was an asymptomatic carrier of a bacterial infection for which there was at that time no cure.

    William my cat has antibody titres to all the so called infectious feline diseases and has never had a vaccine how do you account for that?

    How much did it cost to have your vet run all those titres? Wouldn’t it have been cheaper to simply have your cat vaccinated?

    As for accounting for titres, antibodies can develop in response to a vaccine or wild-type infection. The whole purpose of vaccination is to cause the immune system to develop antibodies to a relatively safe antigen (safe because it’s either killed or attenuated) so when you are exposed to the living infectious agent your body’s subsequent reaction is both faster and stronger. The immune response is the same, irrespective the source of exposure – it’s just a lot less dangerous to get vaccinated than to risk wild-type infection. Polio vaccine side effects – sore arm. Wild-type infection – general paralysis, iron lung, permanent disfiguration and muscle wasting of the limbs.

    Symptoms of aspirin overdose – ulcers, tinnitus. Appearance of Reye’s syndrome – primarily in children. Risk of death due to acute aspirin overdose – 1% at a dose of 500mg/kg – for a 175 pound man (80kg) that’s 40 grams of aspirin, basically an entire bottle. Majority of deaths due to influenza, fall/winter 1918 – healthy adult males.

    I wasn’t aware newspapers were reliable sources of medical information. I was under the impression that they generally reported controversies and uncertainties. Incidentally, if osteopathy is so effective, why is the discipline’s current curriculum so close to that of conventional physicians, including the prescription of drugs?

    If a healthy animal has “infinite immunity”, does that mean no animal in the wild ever dies of infectious disease? If that’s the case, it’s curious why everyone is so worried about rabies.

    Also curious is why human life expectancy increased so quickly when vaccination was introduced, and why smallpox doesn’t exist anymore.

    How do you know your cat doesn’t have any gut parasites?

  6. mousethatroared says:

    @Harriet Hall, regarding germ theory denialism.

    A little googling seems to indicate that mistakenly believing you can substitute titer testing for vaccinations in kitties is not uncommon in cat fancier circles. Perhaps an article by the resident Science Based Vet on the topic could be informative.

    (formerly M in M)

  7. Scott says:

    @mousethatroared:

    Love the new name, BTW. I was quite disappointed recently to fail to lay my hands on the entire series.

  8. sarah007 says:

    I have 2 Lab certificates that show full titre coverage for the main cat ‘infectious diseases’, and another one that shows no egg infestations for the commonest gut parasites cost about £40 each to have done.

    Why the hell would your offer of the cheaper option of vaccination be relevent?

    If you want to do a piece on the animal vaccination saga make sure you cover the complete revolt in not vaccinating due to the increase in auto immune diseases in vaccinated animals, correlates with what we are seeing in human populations.

    It’s laughable watching you guys scream ‘heretic’ this septic science would be an interesting theme for a remake of the Salam witch trials.

    Hey William the basis for modern germ theory is older than that so I think you should apply that logic to your hero that wanker Pasteur.

    Oh on aspirin overdose you forgot haematemesis, hyperpyrexia, hypoglycaemia, hypokalaemia, thrombocytopaenia, increased INR/PTR, intravascular coagulation, renal failure and non-cardiac pulmonary oedema.

    Why did you leave these out, looks like you’ve got Roche syndrome, if the data doesn’t fit the septisism leave it out!

    As to life expectancy and vaccination you have obviously used the ‘notification’ graphs rather than the more reliable coronor’s graphs that certainly don’t reflect the magic of vaccination William, tut tut, more Roche syndrome there mate.

    Wong if I thought you were a decent honerable person genuinly interested in science I would send you both of them now. As to much, so far you have shown that you are a bigoted twat and therefore do not qualify for full disclosure, sorry.

  9. sarah007 says:

    It is quite amazing that this site has removed whole posts of mine and then started critiqing sic them in their abscence, this is so like peer reviewing I must say it is an insight into your bizarre world and anyone watching it must be finding it rather revealing.

    So resident vet here is the study that they can’t do in humans

    A team at Purdue University School of Veterinary Medicine conducted several studies to determine if vaccines can cause changes in the immune system of dogs that might lead to life-threatening immune-mediated diseases. They obviously conducted this research because concern already existed. It was sponsored by the Haywood Foundation which itself was looking for evidence that such changes in the human immune system might also be vaccine induced. It found the evidence.

    The vaccinated, but not the non-vaccinated, dogs in the Purdue studies developed autoantibodies to many of their own biochemicals, including fibronectin, laminin, DNA, albumin, cytochrome C, cardiolipin and collagen.

    This means that the vaccinated dogs — ”but not the non-vaccinated dogs”– were attacking their own fibronectin, which is involved in tissue repair, cell multiplication and growth, and differentiation between tissues and organs in a living organism.

    The vaccinated Purdue dogs also developed autoantibodies to laminin, which is involved in many cellular activities including the adhesion, spreading, differentiation, proliferation and movement of cells. Vaccines thus appear to be capable of removing the natural intelligence of cells.

    Autoantibodies to cardiolipin are frequently found in patients with the serious disease systemic lupus erythematosus and also in individuals with other autoimmune diseases. The presence of elevated anti-cardiolipin antibodies is significantly associated with clots within the heart or blood vessels, in poor blood clotting, haemorrhage, bleeding into the skin, foetal loss and neurological conditions.

    The Purdue studies also found that vaccinated dogs were developing autoantibodies to their own collagen. About one quarter of all the protein in the body is collagen. Collagen provides structure to our bodies, protecting and supporting the softer tissues and connecting them with the skeleton. It is no wonder that Canine Health Concern’s 1997 study of 4,000 dogs showed a high number of dogs developing mobility problems shortly after they were vaccinated.

    Dogs commonly develop cancer at the site of the vaccination so the American vet association issued guidelines on vaccinating in the tail or leg so that when it happened you could amputate. How’s that for advice?

  10. mousethatroared says:

    @ Scott, Thanks, I’m afraid it makes me look like more of an enthusiast than I am. I haven’t seen the movie since I was a kid, but the title stuck with me. The name is actually a reference to my mouse (wild- rescued from my cat and raised from a pup) who looks like she’s roaring when she yawns. So I will, sadly, be oblivious to any movie or book references you throw my way.

  11. weing says:

    So it’s not all diseases but some. That still makes your prior claim a lie. Post the actual titers and the name of the lab.

  12. mousethatroared says:

    Also, who’s wong? Looks like you guys have a crazy cat lady on your hands.

  13. Chris says:

    Sarah007:

    It is quite amazing that this site has removed whole posts of mine and then started critiqing sic them in their abscence, this is so like peer reviewing I must say it is an insight into your bizarre world and anyone watching it must be finding it rather revealing.

    Why are you lying?

    Dr. Gorski does not by habit remove posts, nor restricts discussion on this blog. One reason is to let you hang on your own words. Now if you had included a certain number of web links it may have gone into moderation, something that happens to all of us. You are welcome to re-post your missing comments, though I would suggest waiting a while to see if they come out of moderation.

    As for the rest of your comment: citation needed.

  14. WilliamLawrenceUtridge says:

    What proof do you have that autoimmunity is increasing in pets? How did you gather the data?

    Perhaps my math is off, but in order for 20 million people to die of aspirin overdoses, given a lethality rate of 5%, which is I think generous, you’d need something like 400,000,000 people across the world to take on average 40 grams of aspirin each. But mostly healthy men, and very few children or the elderly. That’s 40 grams of aspirin, with each individual pill containing many times that amount in filler. So imagine taking, let’s roughly guess, 400,000,000 people across the planet taking 100 of those 1 gram vitamin C pills enough for 5% of them to get a lethal dose. On the other hand, it would quite handily explain why Reye’s syndrome is so rare, because that would exert significant selection pressure against anyone with a predisposition to it.

    Could you provide the citation to your Purdue study please? Why do you believe the Purdue study, but not the massive convergence of evidence that influenza is actually a very dangerous condition that can be prevented by vaccination with a well-matched antigen? What contrary evidence would you accept as proof that you may be wrong about some of your beliefs? If you don’t believe there is any evidence sufficiently convincing to make you ever change your mind, then you’re not doing science.

    I also find it amusing that you’ve responded to my polite requests and questions with the term “bigoted twat”.

  15. Chris says:

    mousethatroared:

    A little googling seems to indicate that mistakenly believing you can substitute titer testing for vaccinations in kitties is not uncommon in cat fancier circles.

    Excellent idea.

    When I mentioned that my teenagers all received the Tdap, someone told me I should have had their titers measured before giving them the vaccine. They seemed to think that before any booster the titers should be taken. I asked him to tell me why getting expensive blood tests was preferable to just getting a simple vaccine. Especially since my kid with the very severe genetic heard condition (one that may require open heart surgery soon) would have perished if he had had pertussis. I never received an answer.

    I also love the new ‘nym and reason behind it. Hubby and I remembered enjoying the movie in our youth, but when we saw it again a few years later it had not aged well. Le sigh.

    WLU:

    I also find it amusing that you’ve responded to my polite requests and questions with the term “bigoted twat”.

    On the other thread I asked her why insults and name calling (she seems to have a problem remembering Dr. Crislip’s name) were a valid form of evidence. She has not answered that particular question.

  16. lilady says:

    Not content to attack SBM for humans…Sarah now attacks SBM for dogs!

    http://www.dogsadversereactions.com/scienceVaccineDamage.html

    Sarah and the other other cranks on the internet have drawn the illogical conclusion that the author of the linked article, who is not a veterinarian and who has cherry-picked studies from Purdue Veterinary College and is a doggy world anti-vaxer, has hit upon research that is applicable to human vaccines and human SBM.

    I am not a veterinary expert, but I love animals. I think someone ought to speak up for dogs and for Sarah’s cat William.

    I also think that Sarah should still to human SBM…when she is posting on this blog.

  17. Chris says:

    lilady you are proving to be a good internets detective. It is getting kind of scary. But in a good way!

  18. lilady says:

    @ Chris: I “manage”…for the sake of human SBM. And, I have finally figured out “linking”. My burgeoning talents disprove the idiom “You can’t teach and old dog new tricks”.

  19. Chris says:

    Bah, humbug. You are young in spirit!

    And, wow! You have lots of spirit!

  20. sarah007 says:

    AHH, decorum in the chapel. Praise the lord EBM

  21. sarah007 says:

    So if animal research is ok for testing the usefullness of drugs why is it suddenly not good enough to show how poisonous vaccines are. Well that’s easy, if I am a provaxxer all vaccines work and are valid, if dog experiments show they actually precipitate auto immune pathways then the experiment must be wrong.

    Brilliant!

    Treble EBM’s all round

  22. WilliamLawrenceUtridge says:

    Animal research is used to tentatively demonstrate safety, pharmacokinetics and efficacy. Dogs and humans are very, very different. For example, humans have a long, convoluted, relatively low-acid environment suited to digesting meat, fruits and vegetables. Dogs have the short, high-acid GI tract of carnivores and scavengers. In GI tract alone, making a leap from dog to human is illogical. Dogs also sweat through their tongues, humans through their skin, which if nothing else has implications for possible excretion routes for drugs or other compounds. If dog experiments show that vaccines are harmful to dogs, that is suggestive of their effects in humans. There’s a reason all drugs must be demonstrated in two animal models before being tested on humans – it’s hoped that the differences in physiology will “average out” and we get a better sense of the potential drug’s efficacy and adverse effects.

    No drugs or vaccines are given first to animals then directly sold to humans, there are several stages of safety and efficacy testing in between.

    No doctor believes a priori all vaccines work; vaccines are swapped out or outright withdrawn if evidence of safety or efficacy are lacking – such as when the decision was made to use the killed Sabin vaccine instead of the live attenuated Salk vaccine for polio due to wild-type regression. Or when the extremely effective whole-cell pertussis vaccine was withdrawn in favour of the acellular type due to possible gastrointestinal effects and fever. You can continue attacking straw men, it’s a welcome chance to educate any other readers on how science is actually done rather than how you (or they) might think it is done.

  23. sarah007 says:

    Nah nah nah, you’ve got this all wrong. Dogs have a long snouty nose and usually fur, unless you want to get complicated and include the hairless varieties. Humans have short noses and only hair on the rude bits and the head, considered rude in some religious situations so covering sorts that.

    Oh and the idea that you can stimulate an immune system out of its homeostatic mechanism and order it to do something else comes at a price. It’s the single issue factor of how this perverts the immuno system that is conveniently not studied. Science and medical science are not compatable, the latter has more in common with PR so cannot be relied upon to produce a lineage of honesty, it’s too open to population bias at every level of validation and by the time it is approved it’s too late.

    Again like Harriet you use the term ‘hope’, are you sure this is not a major tenet of this medical science? Nice admission on withdrawl of ineffective vaccines, but surely they got licensure because they worked or were they only withdrawn once the profits got dented by claims for fall out or hidden data side effects. You seem to not be aware that parents are not going to accept this guinea pigging anymore, if they are safe why not test them on doctors and nurses. Mind you those in New York last year got a court injunction to stop them having to have mandatory flu vaccines to keep their jobs so how’s that for a belief system collapse.

    Nice try, your serve.

  24. sarah007 says:

    Well there you go, all posting being moderated and deleted so EBM wins again, didn’t your nan tell you that cheating at cards is naughty?

  25. WilliamLawrenceUtridge says:

    Oh and the idea that you can stimulate an immune system out of its homeostatic mechanism and order it to do something else comes at a price.

    Can you support that in any way, because your personal opinion isn’t particularly convincing. Also, that’s not how the acquired immune system works. Our immune system is continuously being challenged by pathogens, and continuously fights them off (or we die). You don’t appear to understand how acquired immunity works. Briefly, the first time an antigen is presented to the immune system, the response is sluggish and weak but the immune system remembers the antigen. Subsequent exposures result in a much faster and stronger response, to the order of several hundred times. That’s why generally you can’t get the same disease twice (one exception is influenza, which because of how quickly the hemagglutinin and neuraminidase proteins on the viral coat change and evolve – it’s the same virus but the expression of the two key proteins are so different it’s as if the immune system has never been exposed before). It doesn’t matter how your immune system encounters the antigen; wild-type infection and vaccination both work. The difference is, vaccine antigens are non-infectious; they either don’t replicate (killed type) or don’t cause significant symptoms (live attenuated, the pathogen has been passed through multiple nonhuman vectors). Therefore, vaccination is much, much safer than wild-type exposure as it essentially can’t (in most cases) cause the disease.

    Science and medical science are not compatable, the latter has more in common with PR so cannot be relied upon to produce a lineage of honesty, it’s too open to population bias at every level of validation and by the time it is approved it’s too late.

    No, science is an empirical methodology that is used in medicine to ensure good results and reliable knowledge. Though drug companies do indeed make a profit, and it’s widely recognized that they do attempt (with some success) to influence prescribing habits, they are not all-powerful. Individual consumers are still responsible for much of their health through lifestyle habits, and the scientific community is both aware, and quite critical of the influence of pharmaceutical firms.

    I think you mean “publication bias” by the way. I’ve never heard of “population bias”.

    Also, do you realize that pharmaceutical firms would actually make more money if they didn’t produce vaccines? Treatment is far more expensive than prevention.

    Again like Harriet you use the term ‘hope’, are you sure this is not a major tenet of this medical science?

    My specific comment is that it is hoped that using two animal models would be more informative than a single one. However, as you still are apparently ignorant of how drugs are released, I’ll repeat – animal studies are only the first steps in producing a new medication and the remaining steps involve human trials.

    Nice admission on withdrawl of ineffective vaccines, but surely they got licensure because they worked or were they only withdrawn once the profits got dented by claims for fall out or hidden data side effects.

    Any doctor will tell you that vaccines have been withdrawn. It’s hardly a secret, it’s part of evidence-based decision-making, the so-called phase-IV trial, postmarketing surveillance. It’s an enormous strength of science in general since it changes its mind in the face of new evidence. “Science” is a process, not a body of knowledge. Vaccines have also been repackaged and improved, such as combining multiple vaccines into a single dose.

    You seem to not be aware that parents are not going to accept this guinea pigging anymore, if they are safe why not test them on doctors and nurses. Mind you those in New York last year got a court injunction to stop them having to have mandatory flu vaccines to keep their jobs so how’s that for a belief system collapse.

    Sounds like doctors and nurses have, like so many Americans, drunk deeply of the general trend of conspiracy theories that so infect the culture – beliefs like Birtherism, 9/11 conspiracies, moon landings and intelligent design. I consider it evidence of the declining standards of American education and critical thinking as well as evidence of an empire in decline (which is sad, because in principle the great American experiment is both unprecedented and incredible). I do take hope however, those who avoid vaccination are more likely to become sick due to the pathogen the vaccine prevents. Over a long enough timespan, there should be a genuine evolutionary trend to stupid people dying out.

    But I’ve seen your nub point before – conspiracy theories are simple and have definite heroes and villains. As story-telling apes, we’re deeply interested in compelling narratives where roles are acted out. It’s one of the inborn tendencies of humans to lie to themselves and simplify the complicated. The uninformed and ignorant, and those with an exaggerated opinions of their own competence (see the Dunning–Kruger effect), are far more vulnerable because they simply don’t realize just how damned convoluted reality actually is. I have sympathy for your position, the world is confusing, but learning about it in real books rather than the echo chamber of CAM germ denialism will lead you to making better decisions. Or, remain ignorant, that’s your choice to.

  26. sarah007 says:

    In the immune response the percentage of ‘aquired immunity’ is about 2%. The other 98% of our reaction to any ‘disease process’ is non specific. That is fever, Diahorreah, vomiting, sweating.

    So William what is the point in claiming that the risk of serious systemic health problems is worth the 2% that is ‘claimed’ by vaccine supporters to be saving lives, there is no EBM for any vaccine efficacy claims it’s tiddly boo science.

    Where have I denied germs? Of course there are germs, it’s what they do and why they are there that is the point of contention. Anti biotics have made them stronger, no one denys that. But if I have not taken any medication for 30 years or so why don’t I have the infections that others have?

  27. sarah007 says:

    By the way both threads are becoming swiss cheese with regard to re editing, moderation and whatever the medical peer review process is. Quite nice to think I am that important you have to do this!

  28. sarah007 says:

    William said: “I do take hope however, those who avoid vaccination are more likely to become sick due to the pathogen the vaccine prevents. Over a long enough timespan, there should be a genuine evolutionary trend to stupid people dying out.”

    This is a remarkable statement William. Considering most people do seem to vaccinate I see little evidence that society is healthier, when I was at school 1 kid had an asthma inhailer, no one had nut allergy and no one had an epipen. Now classrooms are full of sick kids and shoe boxes full of inhailers.

    germ denialism

    I don’t know where you get the idea I am a germ denialist. The idea that you can ‘prevent pathogens’ with vaccines is germ theory fantasy.

    Your simplified idea of health being based upon killing pathogens is very sad William, most doctors don’t even know what a balanced diet is, they are so concerned with palliating symptoms it never occurs to them that each time they do it they add to the load and start the road to chronic ill health.

    In America there are 2 million people over 40 stone in weight, every programme I have seen on this the doctors talk about it being a surgical issue, they have no idea what to do about it and talk about it as if we need sexy gene therapy to fix it. They have no idea of the complexity of the disease process, it is they who reduce the body to a sum of specialist fields and attempt to reassemble it. Sorry but you don’t really know what an alternative is, the song sheet of Septicism is out of date.

    Again you end with a duality, for or against. These devil/god ideas you have don’t have a basis in reality it is much more complicated than that.

  29. lilady says:

    @ WilliamLawrenceUtridge: IIRC, a vaccine which was withdrawn 12 years ago was Rotashield. It was tested during the pre-marketing/licensing period and found to be safe and effective to decrease the incidence of hospitalizations of young infants, due to infections caused by rotavirus.

    After Rotashield was licensed and given to infants to prevent this serious diarrheal illness, August 1998, a slight uptick in the incidence of intussusception were reported; here is the results of the post licensing investigations and the removal of the Rotashield vaccine from the market:

    http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd-vac/rotavirus/vac-rotashield-historical.htm

    I suggest that Sarah read the entire link to find that post-licensing surveillance really does work. The vaccine was removed after 13 months (October, 1999). Sarah should also read through about the “background” incidence of intussusception in infancy versus the slight increase during the time the vaccine was licensed.

    Here is the FDA site about the Rotateq Vaccine, presently in use, that describes the dramatic decrease in hospitalizations for infants (estimated decreased 200,000 hospitalizations/year in the USA), since the licensing and widespread use of this vaccine:

    http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccines/Vaccines/QuestionsaboutVaccines/ucm100242.htm

    “By the way both threads are becoming swiss cheese with regard to re editing, moderation and whatever the medical peer review process is. Quite nice to think I am that important you have to do this!”

    This is the Dunning-Kruger effect, carried to the extreme, that Sarah refers to.

    Thanks for playing Dunning-Kruger Bingo, Sarah. You can collect your prize at the door, on the way out.

  30. @sarah, please go ahead and look up death rates and annual mortality from Smallpox, and look at the benefit we have as humans from eradicating it from the planet. If we ranked human achievement of the last 150,000 years, vaccinations would probably be the absolute greatest thing we’ve done.

  31. sarah007 says:

    Looks like Septikalhealth is still in the land of notification graphs rather than actual cause graphs. Jenner said after years of smearing pus taken from children he hauled around riddled with small pox as living petridishes,

    “My suppositions were based on a fallacy, there is more disease than there was”

    You can live in fairy comfort land if you want but a lot of people are still finding the honest historical disaster of vaccination and as hard as you try it isn’t going to go away. You may sincerely believe that vaccination has saved the world, but you are unfortunately very wrong.

  32. There we go, the germ theory of disease debunked by a single quote. You’ve sold me. Thank you Sarah.

  33. WilliamLawrenceUtridge says:

    In the immune response the percentage of ‘aquired immunity’ is about 2%. The other 98% of our reaction to any ‘disease process’ is non specific. That is fever, Diahorreah, vomiting, sweating.

    Those are symptoms of acute infection while the infectious pathogen is still actively replicating and being fought off by the body. Fever raises the body temperature, which reduces the replication rates of bacteria and inceases the metabolic activity of certain immune cells. Diarrhea and vomiting are attempts to remove ingested pathogens from the GI tract. They have nothing to do with acquired immunity. One of vaccination’s benefits is you get to avoid symptoms like these, since acquired immunity means these bacterial and viral invaders are neutralized before your body needs to respond to infection.

    So William what is the point in claiming that the risk of serious systemic health problems is worth the 2% that is ‘claimed’ by vaccine supporters to be saving lives, there is no EBM for any vaccine efficacy claims it’s tiddly boo science.

    Well, you have yet to demonstrate vaccination results in systemic health problems, though you personally seem quite convinced it does. Successful vaccination generally results in 100% protection against the pathogen, though vaccination is not always successful. That’s why you get two, or sometimes three shots of the same vaccine as boosters. The point of getting vaccination is to avoid these symptoms, which can be life threatening. Mild fever is better than severe, brain-boiling fever; a baby with a sore arm is better than a baby losing so many electrolytes from diarrhea and vomiting that their central nervous system shuts down.

    Where have I denied germs? Of course there are germs, it’s what they do and why they are there that is the point of contention. Anti biotics have made them stronger, no one denys that. But if I have not taken any medication for 30 years or so why don’t I have the infections that others have?

    Antibiotics do not “make germs stronger”. Improper use of antibiotics makes germs specifically more resistant to those specific antibiotics. It’s not like bacteria are “stronger” because of antibiotics, it just means our number of treatment options are severely reduced.

    As for why you don’t have any infections, chances are you are probably in good health due to a good diet and regular exercise (as recommended by every doctor on the planet). But you may have sub-clinical infections. You could be lying. You could discount symptoms as not being caused by infections. You may not be exposed to serious pathogens as a result of significant public health measures taken over the past century (clean drinking water, vaccination, isolation of infectious patients, effective treatments for diseases). You could be a healthy adult due to significant exposure to minor infections as a child. All the serious diseases, polio, smallpox, bacterial meningitis, measles, tetanus, rabies, they are all significantly reduced due to major public health efforts over the past century, including vaccination.

    Considering most people do seem to vaccinate I see little evidence that society is healthier, when I was at school 1 kid had an asthma inhailer, no one had nut allergy and no one had an epipen. Now classrooms are full of sick kids and shoe boxes full of inhailers.

    Sure, that’s a possible side effect of society’s unwarranted obsession with cleanliness (there’s no real need for a sterile environment beyond surgery, yet Lysol still sells very well – it’s dumb). But how many parents have lost a child due to polio, smallpox, measles, rubella, pertussis, chicken pox and similar diseases that were the scourge of the pre-medical world? If you measure health as “number of autoimmunity cases”, perhaps we’re getting less healthy. I measure health in terms of “percentage of children surviving to their teens”. By that measure, we’re remarkably health. Sufficiently so, people can fool themselves into thinking vaccination is unnecessary.

    Your simplified idea of health being based upon killing pathogens is very sad William, most doctors don’t even know what a balanced diet is, they are so concerned with palliating symptoms it never occurs to them that each time they do it they add to the load and start the road to chronic ill health.

    That’s a straw man of what doctors actually do. There’s no diet that’ll let you live forever in perfect health, but we do know the importance of unprocessed foods, well-cooked meat and adequate consumption of vitamins and minerals.

    Question, if a fat guy comes into your house with a bullet wound, would you lecture them about the benefits of a healthy diet and exercise plan? Doctors treat acute problems while counselling for long-term health. It’s not the doctor’s fault if a patient ignores advice to exercise and eat better.

    In America there are 2 million people over 40 stone in weight, every programme I have seen on this the doctors talk about it being a surgical issue, they have no idea what to do about it and talk about it as if we need sexy gene therapy to fix it. They have no idea of the complexity of the disease process, it is they who reduce the body to a sum of specialist fields and attempt to reassemble it. Sorry but you don’t really know what an alternative is, the song sheet of Septicism is out of date.

    You get your medical information from TV shows about people who need bariatric surgery? No wonder your idea of health is skewed. Those are the extremes, people whose health is endangered because of their weight (a phenomenon not restricted to the US). It’s like judging the attractiveness of the UK by looking at Elizabeth Hurley and Kate Winslet. People know being fat is unhealthy, it’s not like real doctors are saying “tuck into some bacon there, it’ll prevent you from dying of frostbite”. The standard recommendation is diet and exercise to keep weight at a healthy level.

    Again you end with a duality, for or against. These devil/god ideas you have don’t have a basis in reality it is much more complicated than that.

    I’m not the one misrepresenting reality by claiming doctors don’t counsel the importance of healthy weight, healthy diet and moderate exercise. You’ve constructed your own duality – a strawman of the current medical system on one hand (doctors only prescribe drugs, never counsel lifestyle changes and ignore the risks of their treatments) and some sort of bizarre utopia that never existed on the other.

  34. Chris says:

    Except, is it a real quote? Again, without a citation we cannot tell. And the lack of an ending period in the sentence makes me wonder what came after. It seems like it is cherry picked, or completely made up like Pasteur’s last words.

    It is at times like this we need to bring up the Pfeiffer incident (and it is given in more detail in the book Pox, an American History). Unfortunately history is repeating itself with those who are germ deniers bringing back measles and other illnesses, with some children paying very high prices.

    What makes it worse is that Mercola is profiting from those who ignore history, like Sarah.

  35. Chris says:

    I see that no one has come forth to tell me which in the list of causes for autism by Mercola is actually real. Someone tried to pin it on mercury, but since that was removed from pediatric vaccines a decade ago that was obviously nonsense.

    But, wait… what about pasteurized milk? Surely this means raw milk is all okay dokay. Well, except for the dozens of people each year who get seriously ill from it. Most recently around sixty people came down with Campylobacter jejuni recently.

  36. lilady says:

    @ Chris: It’s not just contamination with the C. jejuni bacterium in unpasteurized milk and dairy products, that one has to worry about. Outbreaks of serious illness from unpasteurized milk and cheeses that are caused by the salmonella, E. coli and Listeria bacteria are reported frequently to local and state health departments.

    I recall investigating cases of Listeria-infected pregnant women who miscarried. Their infections were caused by consuming unpasteurized cheeses:

    http://www.fda.gov/Food/ResourcesForYou/consumers/ucm079516.htm

    Joe Mercola is a public health menace.

  37. sfdyoung says:

    “1.9 million people can’t be wrong…”

    sarah007, I really can’t believe you said that.

  38. Narad says:

    Jenner said after years of smearing pus taken from children he hauled around riddled with small pox as living petridishes

    Once again, the Natural Hygiene shoe drops. It’s always the pus.

  39. sarah007 says:

    Banshees screaming in the church, once again.

  40. WilliamLawrenceUtridge says:

    Sarah, that is not a reasoned argument, a source that can be trusted, or any other reason to change anyone’s mind. It’s yet more of your assertions that science is biased, doctors can’t be trusted and the only real skeptics are the ones who agree with you. Of course, you are not a skeptic, you are a denialist who puts the rest of the world at risk. Skeptics change their minds in the face of evidence; denialists pervert, distort and lie about evidence to support a conclusion they refuse to alter. Your peers are Duane Gish, Peter Duesberg, the Koch brothers, Thabo Mbeki, David Irving, Fred Phelps and that senator who was openly a member of the KKK. Congratulations.

    Again, science changes in the face of more and better evidence, such as autism rates remaining the same despite the removal of thiomersal from most vaccines. Your efforts to deny reality in order to maintain the sense that you can somehow control an unpredictable and complicated world only hurt yourself and place your children and their peers at risk.

  41. Chris says:

    What Sarah has done quite effectively is to show the lack of evidence to support Mercola, and the depths of her ignorance.

  42. sarah007 says:

    What an interesting state of affairs. Removing posts to suit the thread is what we have all become used to in the medical peer reviewed world, good to see you are sticking to medical standards.

  43. WilliamLawrenceUtridge says:

    Again Sarah, your posts will not go into moderation if you cite article titles, authors, year and journal. Of course, if you try to cite whale.to you might never leave moderation – but who cares, since whale.to isn’t a source of accurate medical information. You realize whale.to cites David “transdimensional alien-lizard shapeshifters control the world!!11!!11!!!!” Icke as a source? THAT is what you use for medical information?

  44. Chris says:

    Actually, WLU, she probably thinks she is posting comments, but they are actually imaginary. She only dreamed she posted them.

  45. Scott says:

    Either that, or she knows full well that she’s lying through her teeth.

  46. Harriet Hall says:

    I’d just like to say that as far as I know, no post of Sarah’s has ever been deleted. It is our policy to let even the most ridiculous and offensive comments stand. Anyone who has been following our blog knows how we have tolerated even the likes of Th1Th2. As an editor, I share the power to delete posts, but I have never done so. And there is something weird about which comments go into moderation that I don’t understand; several times my own comments have gone into moderation and I have had to act as editor to release them.

  47. bgoudie says:

    I’ve decided that sarah007′s idea of providing evidence reminds me of the bit from A Mighty Wind

    “Our beliefs are fairly commonplace and simple to understand. Humankind is simply materialized color operating on the 49th vibration. You would make that conclusion walking down the street or going to the store. ”

    She’s just about that rational in her premise and only slightly worse in her supporting arguments.

  48. Chris says:

    Perhaps Sarah assumes all blogs are like AoA, where comments are regularly removed by the moderator. For all she knows she may actually think she has posted comments that have not appeared, but it is more likely she is showing the level of honesty we have often seen from those who support Mercola.

  49. weing says:

    I am sure that she has had posts deleted. In her mind only. Not in reality. Her beliefs about disease and science are facts, again, only in her mind. Her reality is just fantasy or a lie.

  50. sarah007 says:

    William I have never quoted this whales thing so have no idea what you are talking about. Lots of people are posting up the research that is quietly avoided, unless you work for the FBI or are psychic I have no idea how you believe you can guess what I read!

    Most of what I have posted has been taken from articles published in journals like the BMJ.

    So Harriet also tells us that she knows posts have not been deleted, it seems to me that we have another septic tank here where there are rarely any real posters, 3 or 4 maybe on a sad committe trying to pretend that the hub of cutting edge science discussion is happening here!

    So can I act as editor! With Harriets skills it’s no wonder whole parts of threads are disappearing like medical data from a vaccine study.

    Bjougie’s belief in whatever he understands is very enlightening, thanks for sharing your ideas.

    Hi Chris, what’s AoA?

    Weing, wong again. So you think that arthritis is deficiency in analgesics and indigestion is caused by lack of proton pump inhibitors, well your doctor does.

    William said: “Skeptics change their minds in the face of evidence”

    Lovely septic prose William, it’s just the “evidence” you believe in is an artificial construct, reviewed by some of the greatest axxxhxxxx around who just have no ethical morals or humanity as part of their process. Of course there is the odd saint in there but as soon as they show the medical consensus to be wrong they are removed from the arena and it’s back on your heads boys.

  51. sarah007 says:

    William said: “you are not a skeptic, you are a denialist who puts the rest of the world at risk.”

    Well with the swine flu scamdemic william the whole world was put at risk and you still believe it happened.

    Not vaccinating only puts profit at risk, you have no data to challenge this statement because comparison studies between unvaccinated populations has never been done. Funny that, why not?

  52. weing says:

    “Weing, wong again. So you think that arthritis is deficiency in analgesics and indigestion is caused by lack of proton pump inhibitors, well your doctor does.”

    I am a doctor, and, besides being off topic, that is sheer straw man nonsense.

    “Most of what I have posted has been taken from articles published in journals like the BMJ.”

    And, by picking only some of the sentences written, showing your complete inability to understand the totality of what is written.

  53. WilliamLawrenceUtridge says:

    I have never quoted this whales thing so have no idea what you are talking about.

    You may or may not get your information from whale.to, but your comments and arguments, like many in the antivaccination camp, bear strong resemblances if not outright identical structure and content to those found on whale.to – who cites David “Transdimensional Shapeshifting Lizards Control the World” Icke without qualification or irony.

    Lots of people are posting up the research that is quietly avoided, unless you work for the FBI or are psychic I have no idea how you believe you can guess what I read!

    I strongly question your posts, which reflect a very partial and certainly ideologically motivated reading of the sources – for instance, claiming Aaby supported vaccines being dangerous, when in fact it is only a suggestion of one vaccine being possibly dangerous while the others have strong indications of having protective effects above and beyond merely preventing single diseases. On top of giving blatantly one-sided and often incorrect summaries of what literature you do cite, you are either not reading or not including summaries of the dissenting literature that strongly converges on vaccines being cheap, safe, effective ways of preventing extremely serious diseases (including cancer).

    Most of what I have posted has been taken from articles published in journals like the BMJ.

    Not really, so far I can only think of a single post that actually cited a source that was reasonable, and it didn’t actually support your position.

    So Harriet also tells us that she knows posts have not been deleted, it seems to me that we have another septic tank here where there are rarely any real posters, 3 or 4 maybe on a sad committe trying to pretend that the hub of cutting edge science discussion is happening here!

    Only 3-4 people think it’s worth spending the time to correct the errors in your post. Everyone else realizes you are a lost cause. I’m only here to point out the flaws in your argument, so other readers can realize they are largely, if not totally, without merit. You are a lost cause since you seem unwilling to admit you might be wrong, but this is very helpful for the undecided and worried.

    Hi Chris, what’s AoA?

    Age of Autism, a site notorious for claiming autism is caused by vaccination (and sometimes mercury, though that goalpost has since shifted), despite many studies involving thousands of children that indicate vaccines may in fact prevent autism, and that autism is far more genetically determined than it is environmental. You’d like it.

    Weing, wong again. So you think that arthritis is deficiency in analgesics and indigestion is caused by lack of proton pump inhibitors, well your doctor does.

    Nobody thinks arthritis is caused by a lack of pain medications. Arthritis can’t be treated directly, all we can do is address the symptoms – primarily pain. If it weren’t for pain, arthritis would be a fairly benign condition since it doesn’t cause much direct functional impairment. As for indigestion, there are myriad causes. You seem to be alluding to ulcers, not indigestion, and most ulcers are now treated with antibiotics to clear up H. pylori infections that are a major cause. A real doctor would assess what could cause indigestion, not simply hand over something to reduce stomach acidity. Again, this is a straw man of actual medical practice, you’re criticizing an illusion.

    Lovely septic prose William, it’s just the “evidence” you believe in is an artificial construct, reviewed by some of the greatest axxxhxxxx around who just have no ethical morals or humanity as part of their process. Of course there is the odd saint in there but as soon as they show the medical consensus to be wrong they are removed from the arena and it’s back on your heads boys.

    Again, you are accusing the entire medical community of being biased, bribed and untrustworthy. Where is your evidence? Particularly since criticisms of drug trials funded by large pharmaceutical firms have been criticized by that very medical community you claim to be biased, bribed and untrustworthy. Science is hard, and it takes money – some of which comes from Pfizer. This is why the editors of Sciencebasedmedicine.org, and all doctors really, urge caution and disclosure of funding sources at the end of nearly every article regarding who paid for it. Common practice, has been for years, and undisclosed funding sources are a big deal to the point of being considered a blatant and inappropriate violation of ethics to omit such information, even accidentally.

    Well with the swine flu scamdemic william the whole world was put at risk and you still believe it happened.

    I believe H1N1 was a pandemic, I believe the first reports of its lethality were quite scary (and given Spanish Influenza’s lethality, you can’t idly dismiss those reports), I believe the virus was less lethal than it could have been, and I believe universal vaccination would reduce the lethality of all annual pandemic influenza cases, which is on the order of several hundred thousand every year. Half a million unnecessary deaths every year – but as long as you are OK, that’s all that matters to you I suppose. I’m a healthy adult male with uncompromised immunity – chances are I will be fine no matter the strain. I get vaccinated for my grandmother, your grandmother, your children, my friends’ children and really, for the strangers I don’t know but still don’t want to give the flu to.

    Not vaccinating only puts profit at risk, you have no data to challenge this statement because comparison studies between unvaccinated populations has never been done. Funny that, why not?

    Are you sure about that? Are you absolutely positive that no placebo-controlled studies have been done? Are you sure there haven’t been sixteen randomized, controlled trials of children alone? Are you sure that placebo-controlled trials aren’t done all the time? Are you sure that there aren’t regular reports of placebo controlled trials indicating vaccination consistently reduces symptoms? Are you sure a search on pubmed for “influenza vaccine placebo” won’t turn up more than 500 hits, eight of which are from 2012 alone, and some pretty sophisticated studies of various combinations of vaccine-influenza type-placebo combinations? I mean, you are claiming that there are no studies comparing vaccinated versus nonvaccinated groups, that seems like it would be pretty damning if it were true.

  54. bgoudie says:

    “Not vaccinating only puts profit at risk, you have no data to challenge this statement because comparison studies between unvaccinated populations has never been done. Funny that, why not?”

    Really now? Here’s just a few studies with comparisons between vaccinated and non vaccinated groups.

    http://ije.oxfordjournals.org/content/17/1/193.short
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2393147/
    http://www.bmj.com/content/329/7467/660.short

    The of course there is the simple evidence of the effect that mass immunization had on Polio and Smallpox. We had huge control group on those. Humanity before the development of the vaccines, humanity afterwards.

  55. Chris says:

    Sarah:

    Not vaccinating only puts profit at risk, you have no data to challenge this statement because comparison studies between unvaccinated populations has never been done. Funny that, why not?

    Seriously? You really think that treating an illness is more cost effective than preventing it?

    Actually, there are studies comparing the costs. There are epidemiological studies that are done in populations, and take into account the numbers of those who are not vaccinated. I know you cannot understand that because you live in a fantasy world with your mind welded shut against all new information. I will be listing several in a form that will make them easy to find on PubMed, without using links.

    One such study that compared vaccinated children against completely unvaccinated children comes from Germany:
    Dtsch Arztebl Int. 2011 Feb;108(7):99-104. Epub 2011 Feb 18.
    Vaccination status and health in children and adolescents: findings of the German Health Interview and Examination Survey for Children and Adolescents (KiGGS).

    The less than surprising finding was that the only difference between the two groups is that the children who received no vaccines had more vaccine-preventable diseases.

    Now, as far as costs go, there are several studies in that regard. Let’s start with the measles epidemic from about twenty years ago where over 120 Americans died, many of them in California. If you have an open mind you can read what the hospital care cost, and how much it cost the state here:
    West J Med. 1996 Jul-Aug;165(1-2):20-5.
    Pediatric hospital admissions for measles. Lessons from the 1990 epidemic.

    Now here are several that are actual economic analysis of the uses of vaccines:

    Arch Pediatr Adolesc Med. 2005 Dec;159(12):1136-44.
    Economic evaluation of the 7-vaccine routine childhood immunization schedule in the United States, 2001.

    J Infect Dis. 2004 May 1;189 Suppl 1:S131-45.
    An economic analysis of the current universal 2-dose measles-mumps-rubella vaccination program in the United States.

    Pediatrics. 2002 Oct;110(4):653-61.
    Impact of universal Haemophilus influenzae type b vaccination starting at 2 months of age in the United States: an economic analysis.

    Vaccine. 1998 May-Jun;16(9-10):989-96.
    A benefit-cost analysis of two-dose measles immunization in Canada.

    Now, Sarah, it is up to you to explain clearly how vaccines provide more profit to pharmaceutical companies than the drugs needed to treat those who get the diseases. You must factor in the costs of antibiotics, anticonvulsant, respiratory support, and everything else. Be sure to show your work by actually posting the journal, date and titles of the PubMed indexed papers supporting your assertion that it costs less to treat than to prevent a disease.

    By the “AoA” is the Age of Autism blog, which is edited by Dan Olmsted. They guy who “researched” the Amish in Lancaster County but completely missed the “Clinic for Special Children.” It is heavily moderated with comments removed so often that some have created blogs with names like “silencedbyageofautism” and “counteringageofautism.”

  56. WilliamLawrenceUtridge says:

    Chris, your links and studies are useless – they are only reliable if they support the conclusion that vaccines are worthless and/or dangerous. Otherwise they’re too biased by Big Pharma to be trusted. But you can trust Joe Mercola – he doesn’t make any money from his advice. His clinic’s services is provided completely free of charge. He doesn’t sell any supplemennts. He sells no books. His speaking engagements are also free. He makes absolutely no money from any source. That is why you can trust him. He has absolutely no bias and no incentive to distort science and promote the idea that vaccination is harmful. He certainly doesn’t gain any sort of personal ego-based satisfaction from the adulations of millions of visitors to his website and speaking engagements. And he would always admit when he was wrong, or qualify his statements when they went wildly beyond what the actual research says. Not that you can trust the research, unless it supports your conclusion.

  57. WilliamLawrenceUtridge says:

    Indeed, I hoped people would pick up on the sarcasm :)

    It’s always amazed me that people criticize Big Pharma, which as an amorphous entity makes money from a large number of products streaming into a collective coffer or set of coffers – but completely ignore the fact that many of the individual practitioners make much of their income from either criticizing the system directly, or selling a competing product that they have to justify through conspiracy because there’s no evidence to support the claims.

    Seriously, the parallels with creationism, AIDS denialism, global warming denialism and the Apollo moon landing hoax conspiracy are incredibly obvious…

  58. sarah007 says:

    Chris your logic is about as logical as, words fail me..

    Not getting diseases is about staying well. Orthodox medicine is about fire fighting conditions like cardio vascular disease and obesity with sexy surgery. If doctors showed an iota of interest in teaching people how to maintain health none of these proceedures would be necessary. Your average doctor has no idea what even a healthy diet is. Why try to prevent a disease that doesnt produce mortality in well nourished people?

    Willy said: “Arthritis can’t be treated directly, all we can do is address the symptoms – primarily pain. If it weren’t for pain, arthritis would be a fairly benign condition since it doesn’t cause much direct functional impairment.”

    This is uninformed jet trash. Read Bogduck on arthritis, he makes it clear that to call it a disease is to misunderstand what it is. I certainly know of many cases that have successfully halted and reversed this condition by simply changing their diet and stopping taken the anti inflammatories that are contributing to the degeneration by impacting on collagen formation. Try telling someone who is being managed by a Rheumatologist how benign their condtion’s functional impairment is when they are on TNFL’s. When their liver eventually collapses ask them how they are doing on the treatment. All you can do is fire fight because you refuse to even look at work done to overcome this condition.

    Chris said “I believe H1N1 was a pandemic, I believe the first reports of its lethality were quite scary” Fear is lack of knowledge Chris, I am genuinly sorry you were scared but most people were not. Collective fear of the mystery of disease is the biggest mistake that your postition holds, healthy people don’t get ill.

    Mercola may make money, so what, but what he does is dispell the mythology that modern medicine touts that you cant do anything about any disease without your sexy doctor, most of it apart from acute combative truama is fairly easy to do yourself. You can take quite a lot of the knowledge and use it without the result costing anything.

    Oh and on the Ebola nonsense posted earlier a colleague of mine spent time in an Ebola area in Africa, when he arrived he was shitting it. By the time he left he realised that the only people who presented with this condition were poorly nourished natives with high oxidative stress to boot.

    Vaccination is no different, when we are healthy we don’t contract diseases, it is far cheaper to stay well.

  59. sarah007 says:

    Chris your logic is about as logical as, words fail me..

    Not getting diseases is about staying well. Orthodox medicine is about fire fighting conditions like cardio vascular disease and obesity with sexy surgery. If doctors showed an iota of interest in teaching people how to maintain health none of these proceedures would be necessary. Your average doctor has no idea what even a healthy diet is. Why try to prevent a disease that doesnt produce mortality in well nourished people?

    Willy said: “Arthritis can’t be treated directly, all we can do is address the symptoms – primarily pain. If it weren’t for pain, arthritis would be a fairly benign condition since it doesn’t cause much direct functional impairment.”

    This is uninformed jet trash. Read Bogduck on arthritis, he makes it clear that to call it a disease is to misunderstand what it is. I certainly know of many cases that have successfully halted and reversed this condition by simply changing their diet and stopping taken the anti inflammatories that are contributing to the degeneration by impacting on collagen formation. Try telling someone who is being managed by a Rheumatologist how benign their condtion’s functional impairment is when they are on TNFL’s. When their liver eventually collapses ask them how they are doing on the treatment. All you can do is fire fight because you refuse to even look at work done to overcome this condition.

    Chris said “I believe H1N1 was a pandemic, I believe the first reports of its lethality were quite scary” Fear is lack of knowledge Chris, I am genuinly sorry you were scared but most people were not. Collective fear of the mystery of disease is the biggest mistake that your postition holds, healthy people don’t get ill.

    Mercola may make money, so what, but what he does is dispell the mythology that modern medicine touts that you cant do anything about any disease without your sexy doctor, most of it apart from acute combative truama is fairly easy to do yourself. You can take quite a lot of the knowledge and use it without the result costing anything.

    Oh and on the Ebola nonsense posted earlier a colleague of mine spent time in an Ebola area in Africa, when he arrived he was shitting it. By the time he left he realised that the only people who presented with this condition were poorly nourished natives with high oxidative stress to boot.

    Vaccination is no different, when we are healthy we don’t contract diseases, it is far cheaper to stay well.

    Oh looked at the bougie pile of pro flu vaccine ‘evidence’ and what do we find in the pile

    “We estimated vaccine effectiveness, the proportion of deaths attributable to influenza that were apparently prevented by the vaccine, from these fractions.”

    I can’t be bothered to wade through this crap, it is so indicative of the quality of ‘evidence’ I wonder who funded it too.

  60. WilliamLawrenceUtridge says:

    Not getting diseases is about staying well. Orthodox medicine is about fire fighting conditions like cardio vascular disease and obesity with sexy surgery. If doctors showed an iota of interest in teaching people how to maintain health none of these proceedures would be necessary. Your average doctor has no idea what even a healthy diet is. Why try to prevent a disease that doesnt produce mortality in well nourished people?

    If your doctor has not recommended getting enough exercise, sleep, eating lots of fresh fruits and vegetables, whole grains, lean meats and other rather banal, well-known bits of information, you should change doctors. Beond those spare bits of advice and urging vaccination, there’s not much general information a doctor could provide, though for specific medical conditions they will obviously have more detail. What else do you expect from a doctor, the secret formula to eternal youth? My doctor is 60 and looks it, so apparently Big Pharma hasn’t given him the nanobots yet.

    If you think doctors should ignore acute hyperglycemia caused by diabetes, or myocardial infarction caused by atherosclerosis in order to lecture patients on the importance of good diet and exercise – I can only hope nobody ever comes to you for medical advice.

    This is uninformed jet trash. Read Bogduck on arthritis, he makes it clear that to call it a disease is to misunderstand what it is. I certainly know of many cases that have successfully halted and reversed this condition by simply changing their diet and stopping taken the anti inflammatories that are contributing to the degeneration by impacting on collagen formation. Try telling someone who is being managed by a Rheumatologist how benign their condtion’s functional impairment is when they are on TNFL’s. When their liver eventually collapses ask them how they are doing on the treatment. All you can do is fire fight because you refuse to even look at work done to overcome this condition.

    What kind of arthritis, there are more than 100. Some are caused by wear and tear, some by autoimmunity, some by sepsis. I doubt there is a one-size-fits-all approach. But please, provide a citation that demonstrates a quick and easy solution to all types of arthritis.

    Fear is lack of knowledge Chris, I am genuinly sorry you were scared but most people were not. Collective fear of the mystery of disease is the biggest mistake that your postition holds, healthy people don’t get ill.

    Most people don’t understand what “influenza” truly is – or measles, mumps, diptheria, rubella, smallpox, polio and the like. I know about influenza and I’m afraid of a repeat of the 1918 epidemic. I know about the other diseases because I’ve researched them – most people do not because vaccination means you never have to see how bad they can get.

    Healthy people never get sick – so everybody with AIDS had a pre-existing condition? The 80-90% die-off of Native Americans due to their first exposure to smallpox – every single one of them had compromised immunity? Surprising.

    Mercola may make money, so what, but what he does is dispell the mythology that modern medicine touts that you cant do anything about any disease without your sexy doctor, most of it apart from acute combative truama is fairly easy to do yourself. You can take quite a lot of the knowledge and use it without the result costing anything.

    So it’s OK if Joseph Mercola makes money, but it’s not OK if a pharmaceutical firm does? That’s an odd double-standard.

    Nearly every disease has some form of preventive care that can be taken – cook food thoroughly, get vaccinated, avoid drinking the water, wash your hands. Can’t do much when the person next to you on the bus has a rhinovirus and sneezes. Could wear a face mask I suppose.

    Oh and on the Ebola nonsense posted earlier a colleague of mine spent time in an Ebola area in Africa, when he arrived he was shitting it. By the time he left he realised that the only people who presented with this condition were poorly nourished natives with high oxidative stress to boot.

    Oh, well then, if you know a guy, then that completely changes how all medical research and knowledge is conducted. I knew 10 guys who died of Ebola despite being in their late 20s and in peak physical fitness. I guess that means I win, right? Because I knew 10 guys who died of Ebola.

    I can’t be bothered to wade through this crap, it is so indicative of the quality of ‘evidence’ I wonder who funded it too.

    If you can’t read through that “crap” and understand the abstract in less than five minutes per paper, I seriously doubt your ability to substantively criticize medicine. If you’re curious about the funding sources for each paper, you can see it in the conflict of interest disclosure found at the end of the paper.

    Conflict of interest merely means we should read the paper with a critical eye – it doesn’t mean we can ignore it. In particular, though many denialists use “conflict of interest” as a shortcut to avoid dealing with information they don’t like, this is not a valid research or reasoning strategy. All you are doing is finding excuses to ignore information that might change your mind, if approached rationally.

    Skeptics change their mind in the face of good evidence. Denialists distort and ignore good evidence to avoid changing their mind. Like your use of Aaby, which you didn’t appear to read (or read and didn’t understand). The paper made me re-evaluate the use of the DTP in certain populations as it is suggestive – but not convincing. And since pertussis is a very dangerous disease, I still wholeheartedly support the use of the vaccine, particularly in the First World where there does not seem to be any evidence of increased female deaths (or, as the WHO’s expert panel pointed out, decreased male deaths as the vaccine may be protective to males rather than harmful to females, and the research to date does not allow you to make that distinction).

  61. Chris says:

    Sarah:

    Not getting diseases is about staying well.

    Oh, do tell us how the ten babies in California who died from pertussis were supposed to accomplish that? Or how about the over a dozen people in Indiana who now have measles? Do tell, how do you keep a person who has never had measles nor the vaccine from getting measles when they have been near a person who has it? What do you think causes measles, bad thoughts?

    Sarah:

    Chris said “I believe H1N1 was a pandemic, I believe the first reports of its lethality were quite scary”

    Your lack of reading comprehension is catching up to you. I never said that.

    Vaccination is no different, when we are healthy we don’t contract diseases, it is far cheaper to stay well.

    You can’t read, you cannot stay on topic, you post illogical statements, you insist we provide evidence while you don’t, you live in a fantasy world where there no such things as germs and yet you expect us to believe that little homily. You are delusional.

  62. WilliamLawrenceUtridge says:

    Chris, I actually said that. The first reports were indeed scary – in a town of 3,000 people, 1800 were sick with unusually strong symptoms and two babies died. But I’m sure they were not healthy, and thus deserved it – right Sarah? Because all we have to do is stay healthy and we’ll never get sick.

    Don’t forget, only the weak get sick and die, and they’re not worth keeping anyway. Right Sarah? If you’re healthy, there’s no reason to get vaccinated because who cares if you give it to someone who already had AIDS, cancer, an organ transplant or some other impairment of the immune system – if you die of influenza, you deserved it. Right? Why should I contribute to herd immunity when I don’t benefit directly?

  63. Chris says:

    I know, I was using it as an example of how she is really not reading the responses. Much like she is not answering questions with actual evidence.

    Love the eugenics bit. The babies who died from pertussis must have deserved their fate. It is obvious that they were inferior beings, and pertussis did their parents a favor. She is probably just like the person yesterday who took her truck and drove down a street ignoring all of the traffic laws, the flashing lights behind her and crashed into six cars. Total disregard for anyone else, much less reality.

  64. Chris says:

    Correction, she hit eight cars.

  65. sarah007 says:

    Here is a good example of wonky science the study finds that increased antibiotic use is associated with increase risk of MS but suggests it’s the unamed infection rather than the antibiotic.

    From Medscape Neurology > Medscape Neurology Minute
    Penicillin and Multiple Sclerosis: What’s the Connection?

    Alan R. Jacobs, MD

    Authors and Disclosures

    Posted: 01/27/2012

    A total of 1922 patients redeemed penicillin prescriptions and 2290 patients redeemed any type of antibiotic prior to the index date. They found penicillin use to be associated with increased risk for multiple sclerosis with an odds ratio of 1.21. Moreover, they found use of antibiotics to be similarly associated with increased risk for multiple sclerosis with an odds ratio of 1.41. Odds ratios for all types of antibiotics ranged between 1.08 and 1.83. The investigators conclude that penicillin use and use of other antibiotics are associated with an increased risk for multiple sclerosis and that this suggests that underlying infections may be causally associated with multiple sclerosis. This study was selected from Medscape Best Evidence.

  66. Chris says:

    So what? Why should we care about anything you post since you have demonstrated a lack of basic English literacy, logic, common sense and the ability to stay on topic?

    Sarah, you have now graduated to full troll status with your declaration that “Vaccination is no different, when we are healthy we don’t contract diseases, it is far cheaper to stay well.” You do not discuss, you just pontificate without data. You should be ignored, and others will be warned that it is pointless to attempt to reason with you.

  67. sarah007 says:

    william said “I get vaccinated for my grandmother, your grandmother, your children, my friends’ children and really, for the strangers I don’t know but still don’t want to give the flu to.”

    Sorry but Cochraine found this idea to be baseless.

    William goes on and on”2 babies dies but I’m sure they were not healthy, and thus deserved it” banana plus banana equals elephant.

    You missed the point of health William, if you think that everyone who is not healthy deserves to die you must be bonkers or a medical doctor, which one is it?

    William rants on “Don’t forget, only the weak get sick and die, and they’re not worth keeping anyway.”

    No one needs to be sick, this is a medical artficial construct. Telling us how to stay well is the point, not waiting until we are then suppressing the bodys attempts to get well.

    Chris you are going bonkers, Sarah said “Vaccination is no different, when we are healthy we don’t contract diseases, it is far cheaper to stay well.”

    Chris replied “You can’t read, you cannot stay on topic, you post illogical statements, you insist we provide evidence while you don’t, you live in a fantasy world where there no such things as germs and yet you expect us to believe that little homily. You are delusional.”

    Any plant expert will tell you that healthy plants don’t get diseases, if you find that illogical. The evidence is all around you if you looked instead of spending hours staring at lab reports. Who mentioned eugenics, now you are hallucinating.

    William anecdoted “I knew 10 guys who died of Ebola despite being in their late 20s and in peak physical fitness.”

    What kind of healthy were they, doctor healthy!

    Why should I contribute to herd immunity, well it doesn’t work does it.

  68. Chris says:

    Oh, great she is now comparing the human immune system to plants. Humans are also not triploid.

  69. weing says:

    @sarah007,

    Let me tell you why your posts stink of excrement. It is because they are the excrement of your mind. They are the undigested and partially digested fragments of material you were incapable of digesting. That is basically what crap is. So, do us all a favor, and stop sending us your turds for analysis of what you can’t digest.

  70. lilady says:

    Sarah states:

    “Oh and on the Ebola nonsense posted earlier a colleague of mine spent time in an Ebola area in Africa, when he arrived he was shitting it. By the time he left he realised that the only people who presented with this condition were poorly nourished natives with high oxidative stress to boot.”

    I think the WHO and the CDC “might” be interested in her opinion about the spread of Ebola virus:

    http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dvrd/spb/mnpages/dispages/ebola/qa.htm

    Sarah, up to her usual trick of “cherry-picking again… without citations” then states:

    “Vaccination is no different, when we are healthy we don’t contract diseases, it is far cheaper to stay well.”

    “Oh looked at the bougie pile of pro flu vaccine ‘evidence’ and what do we find in the pile” and….

    “We estimated vaccine effectiveness, the proportion of deaths attributable to influenza that were apparently prevented by the vaccine, from these fractions.”

    Here is the PubMed Abstract for Sarah’s statement:

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15313884

    And, here are the conclusions from the study:

    MAIN OUTCOME MEASURE:

    Death.
    RESULTS:

    In unvaccinated members of the cohort daily all cause mortality was strongly associated with an index of influenza circulating in the population (mortality ratio 1.16, 95% confidence interval 1.04 to 1.29 at 90th centile of circulating influenza). The association was strongest for respiratory deaths but was also present for cardiovascular deaths. In contrast, in vaccinated people mortality from any cause was not associated with circulating influenza. The difference in patterns between vaccinated and unvaccinated people could not easily be due to chance (P = 0.02, all causes).
    CONCLUSIONS:

    This study, using a novel and robust approach to control for confounding, provides robust evidence of a protective effect on mortality of vaccination against influenza.

    Sarah, I’m getting tired of reading your responses and providing citations for your cherry-picked citation-less quotes. Why don’t you haunt another blog?

  71. Harriet Hall says:

    I’m finding this all very amusing. “Healthy plants don’t get diseases.” If a plant gets a disease, that means it wasn’t a healthy plant. If a person gets sick, that means he wasn’t healthy. If people followed Sarah’s plan for health (whatever that is) all disease would vanish from the Earth. Yeah, sure!

  72. lilady says:

    @ Harriet Hall: It’s like playing Whack-A-Mole with Sarah. Or, in the words of our respected blogger, “…like trying to nail Jello to the wall”.

  73. WilliamLawrenceUtridge says:

    Sarah, science doesn’t know everything. If it did, it would stop. Science will test if MS is related to infection or antibiotics, and our knowledge will grow. People will change their mind. Doctors will change their practice. And ultimately, fewer people will get MS. Hooray!

    Sorry but Cochraine found this idea to be baseless.

    But you can’t trust the Cochrane Collaboration – their conclusions are based on studies funded by Big Pharma. Right?

    You missed the point of health William, if you think that everyone who is not healthy deserves to die you must be bonkers or a medical doctor, which one is it?

    Nope, I think health is a precious thing that should be preserved through vaccination.

    No one needs to be sick, this is a medical artficial construct. Telling us how to stay well is the point, not waiting until we are then suppressing the bodys attempts to get well.

    How are we “suppressing the body’s attempts to get better? Through vaccines? So nobody got sick before vaccination?

    Any plant expert will tell you that healthy plants don’t get diseases, if you find that illogical. The evidence is all around you if you looked instead of spending hours staring at lab reports. Who mentioned eugenics, now you are hallucinating.

    Your definition is tautological; any plant that is healthy doesn’t get disease; any plant that gets diseases isn’t healthy. It’s the “no true Scotsman” logical fallacy.

    What kind of healthy were they, doctor healthy!

    Healthier than your anecdote, but it didn’t help them. Therefore I win.

    Why should I contribute to herd immunity, well it doesn’t work does it.

    Smallpox was eliminated by boosting the herd immunity of individual cases found to be contagious, so it could not spread. Science doesn’t say “all vaccination is the same”, vaccination for influenza has more problems than vaccination for pertussis, which has more problems than vaccination for smallpox. The world is complicated, it’s not like just because we use the word ‘bridge’ for many ways of crossing rivers, that all bridges are the same or built the same way. I know you want the world to be simple – it isn’t.

  74. Chris says:

    The irony of her bit about plants not getting sick is that the first virus that was discovered was the tobacco mosaic virus. Also, the Dutch tulip mania was over flowers with intricate patterns, which turned out to because by an aphid borne mosaic virus, tulip breaking virus.

    I suspect that Sarah does not do much gardening. I’ve had tulips with the breaking virus, and just this week I sprayed an oil/lime sulfur winter spray on my pear tree to prevent pear rust, a fungal disease.

    She probably has not idea about importance of rootstocks for disease resistance. Even from certain insects, like phylloxera.

  75. sarah007 says:

    Weing, wong again. Jeez you need anger management.

    It does amaze me somewhat, and many others judging by how few visit here, that your heads are shoved firmly up the arse of vaccine woo. The funding bias of the ‘research’ you quote isn’t worth the paper written on and to meet some people online who actually believed in the swine flu pandemic and took worthless medication is enough for me to realise you’re wrong.

    Healthy plants are naturally disease resistant, any twit knows that.

    The arogance that you think you can second guess nature with regard to health selection is mindnumbing. All those arthritic people that you doctors are destroying with bloody painkillers and joint replacement show your lack of understanding.

    ““We estimated vaccine effectiveness, the proportion of deaths attributable to influenza that were apparently prevented by the vaccine, from these fractions.”

    If pubmed research can estimate then so can anyone, this site is a laughing stock.

    William bleated “Nope, I think health is a precious thing that should be preserved through vaccination.”

    Donkey, what an incredibly nonk statement.

    No wonder suicide is popular in doctors, imaging waking up with that kind of logic!

  76. Scott says:

    I find it very amusing to note how thoroughly sarah ignores it when her ignorance and lies are unequivocally demonstrated.

  77. Chris says:

    Sarah:

    Healthy plants are naturally disease resistant, any twit knows that.

    Again, demonstrating that you have no knowledge of botany or basic gardening. Healthy plants attract insects, and insects can make a healthy plant sick. You have obviously never dealt with aphids, mites or cutworms.

    Are you now an insect denier?

  78. bgoudie says:

    At this rate how long until she gives us the argument “Have you ever seen a sick rock? Healthy granite doesn’t require immunization to avoid smallpox, ergo neither do humans.”?

  79. WilliamLawrenceUtridge says:

    It does amaze me somewhat, and many others judging by how few visit here, that your heads are shoved firmly up the arse of vaccine woo. The funding bias of the ‘research’ you quote isn’t worth the paper written on and to meet some people online who actually believed in the swine flu pandemic and took worthless medication is enough for me to realise you’re wrong.

    “Woo” is a term used to refer to unproven treatments with improbable mechanisms. Vaccines are neither improbable (they are based on a solid, well-validated understanding of acquired immunity) nor unproven (with a track record going back well over a century).

    I didn’t take any medication, worthless or otherwise, for H1N1. I got vaccinated. And didn’t get sick that year. Most of the recommendations by public health agencies were quite mild – don’t panic and get vaccinated. Good advice on any year, but even better when you’re talking about a potentially serious strain of seasonal influenza. While the media tried to turn it into “Swinemapocalypse versus Vacciholocaust”, that’s simply their usual reactionary and inflammatory response to the need for a 24-hour news cycle.

    Healthy plants are naturally disease resistant, any twit knows that.

    Yes, this statement is trivially true. But “disease resistant” doesn’t mean “never gets sick”. Healthy organisms are naturally more able to resist most illnesses than those with compromised nutrition or immunity – but they still get infected. Sometimes it is subclinical and we’re not even aware our immune system is fighting off a pathogen (i.e. if you are successfully vaccinated, you’ll never know your blood is swimming with polio). Other times it kills.

    The arogance that you think you can second guess nature with regard to health selection is mindnumbing. All those arthritic people that you doctors are destroying with bloody painkillers and joint replacement show your lack of understanding.

    Arthritis is generally a disease of old age, well past the point at which most people have had children (certainly true before the advent of scientific medicine). Arthritis’ selectionary pressure on humans would be minimal. We now have the luxury of living to old age, where diseases of degeneration cause problems – in large part because vaccination and other public health measures have reduced deaths due to infectious diseases to a negligible level. Arrogance is thinking that a group of people, most appearing to have no real understanding of the immune system or even basic human biology, can dismiss the majority of research without even reading it (let alone understanding it). That’s what you do when you cite studies only on the basis of whether someone else tells you the study in question supports the viewpoint you’ve already chosen to adopt.

    If pubmed research can estimate then so can anyone, this site is a laughing stock.

    Pubmed aggregates research, which is a systematic process of increasing our understanding of the world based on data, hypotheses, testing and more data. Estimates within research are a set of assumptions based on a well-founded understanding of the world within a very carefully defined set of parameters. It bears no resemblance to your “estimate” of the harm of vaccines, which is better described as an assumption that they are harmful and ineffective.

    William bleated “Nope, I think health is a precious thing that should be preserved through vaccination.” Donkey, what an incredibly nonk statement.

    If you’re so confident vaccination is ineffective and your immune system effective, go get bled on by someone with Ebola or inject yourself with a little HIV+ blood. You can demonstrate your amazing powers, possibly winning $1,000,000 from James Randi since the results would probably qualify as miraculous.

  80. sarah007 says:

    bougie”If you’re so confident vaccination is ineffective and your immune system effective, go get bled on by someone with Ebola or inject yourself with a little HIV+ blood. You can demonstrate your amazing powers, possibly winning $1,000,000 from James Randi since the results would probably qualify as miraculous.

    Well that’s logical! Why would anyone want to ask for James Randi’s opinion on anything? A man who smuggles a minor illegally into the country with dodgy nationality paperwork is surely not someone to trust.

    “Pubmed aggregates research, which is a systematic process of increasing our understanding of the world based on data, hypotheses, testing and more data. Estimates within research are a set of assumptions based on a well-founded understanding of the world within a very carefully defined set of parameters.”

    ‘Aggregates research’ is weasel words for fiddle William, it is still their bias and judging by their leaning towards the consensus it means nothing.

    “I didn’t take any medication, worthless or otherwise, for H1N1. I got vaccinated.” You did, there was no EBM for it when you made that choice, just because you didn’t get sick means nothing. There was no pandemic!

    “Healthy organisms are naturally more able to resist most illnesses than those with compromised nutrition or immunity – but they still get infected.” No they don’t William, if they are healthy they don’t get sick. If you supposition was true we would all be sick and we are not, unless you are lying.

    You are quoting fantasy if you think you can dismiss arthritis as an old disease that is only here because of the success of vaccination making us live older! Contrary to this misconception, according to the Centers for Disease Control & Prevention, 300,000 children and young adults have reported that they have been diagnosed with arthritis.

    “The chance that a young adult will develop RA is more common than previously thought,” says Cynthia Crowson, MS, a Mayo Clinic biostatistician and RA researcher who recently published a paper in Arthritis and Rheumatism on the lifetime risk of developing several autoimmune rheumatic diseases. Crowson says that the odds of someone in their 20s developing RA is 1 in 714 for women and 1 in 2,778 for men.

  81. WilliamLawrenceUtridge says:

    Ad hominen attack on James Randi, No True Scotsman regarding “healthy organisms”, complete misunderstanding of what pubmed is, and again a curious propensity towards hypocrisy – specifically, citing research when it supports your opinion and claiming it to be too biased when it doesn’t. Another post made up of little more than logical fallacies.

  82. lilady says:

    @ WLU: We are now treated to Sarah’s “expertise” on arthritis….just when I was convinced her “expertise” (fixations) were limited to immunology and vaccines.

    I just love it when confronted with some facts about the onset of osteoarthritis, such as surviving to adulthood and being prone to age-related osteoarthritis, Sarah pulls another factoid from her store of dubious medical minutiae to discuss another type of arthritis:

    Oh lookie here, there are hundreds of types of arthritis…some of them associated with infectious diseases!

    http://www.arthritis.org/types-arthritis.php

  83. sarah007 says:

    Lilady it is sad that your belief in the wonders of the doctor is preventing you from probably sorting your problem out but I suppose that is what blind faith is.

    William there is no ad hominen in my post, it’s all over the web:
    Alvarez’s transformation into “Carlos” was part of Randi’s crusade to expose mystics and psychics around the world as frauds. The two men, who live together in Randi’s Plantation home, met when Alvarez was a teen, and they put on the “Carlos” performances for 15 years.

    More recently, the artist’s paintings were featured this spring at the Norton Museum of Art in West Palm Beach, and have graced Art Basel in Miami and galleries in New York and San Francisco.

    Alvarez’s alleged alternate reality came apart Thursday morning, with the arrival at his door of an investigator from the U.S. State Department who specializes in fraudulent passports, visas and other travel documents. Alvarez initially said he was born in Venezuela, then said New York, according to court records. He was arrested on a charge of supplying false information to obtain a passport, a crime punishable by up to 10 years in prison.

    The charge filed against Alvarez alleges he stole a New York man’s date of birth and Social Security number, which he used to obtain a U.S. passport in 1987. He has since renewed the passport twice.

    Outside court, one of Alvarez’s attorneys said his arrest had been “totally out of the blue.”

    Alvarez has lived at Randi’s home for at least two decades, has traveled the world for seminars and has established himself as an internationally renowned artist, said Susan Dmitrovsky, a defense attorney for Alvarez. She said everyone has known him as Jose Luis Alvarez for years.

  84. sarah007 says:

    Hi William, back to old septic tricks again “citing research when it supports your opinion and claiming it to be too biased when it doesn’t.”

    Pot calling kettle black, sir.

  85. lilady says:

    “Lilady it is sad that your belief in the wonders of the doctor is preventing you from probably sorting your problem out but I suppose that is what blind faith is.”

    And…what “problem” would that be, Sarah?

    Perhaps my “problem” as you view it, is dissecting and debunking all the fallacious statements you have made on this blog. Or, is my “problem” actually knowing the science behind the research? Would my “problem” be that I along with others on this blog think that you are an uneducated, ignorant and childish troll?

  86. DavidRLogan says:

    I don’t necessarily disagree that many health issues could be alleviated (prevented?) independent of healthcare professionals (although getting people to eat properly, e.g., is a socioeconomic issue going far beyond the scope of this discussion). But Dr. Mercola’s approach is simply not science-based, even to that end (for instance, the demonization of sugar, focus on taking “essential” fatty acids, etc.) Yes many of his ideas sound sensible (eat like our *ancestors*!) But what is sensible is not always true. Only rigorous experimentation bears the truth, not grandoise theory.

    And it would appear, sadly, that each person who follows these eating guidelines is balanced by several hundred dollars in profit to Mercola et al.

    I do think we in the scientific community, though, deserve some of the blame. Many of us have stood idle while charlatans have spent the last 50 years peddling pharmaceutical estrogen, serotonin “reuptake” inhibitors, and allowed honey nut cheerios to be labeled a health food (no saturated fat in them!). I don’t blame people for flocking to Joseph Mercola, though their health will suffer as a result.

    Blogs like this are a first step. It’s sad to see people like Sarah007 who have suffered so much under the current paradigm. She deserves our compassion.

    Best,
    -David R. Logan, University of Nebraska

  87. weing says:

    ““Healthy organisms are naturally more able to resist most illnesses than those with compromised nutrition or immunity – but they still get infected.” No they don’t William, if they are healthy they don’t get sick. If you supposition was true we would all be sick and we are not, unless you are lying.

    This continues to stink of crap. She lacks the ability to fully digest any scientific/medical material. I don’t think she is so much cherry picking as smearing a painting of the world with the partially digested remains of her reading, in other words, crap. She doesn’t even know the difference between infection and disease. I hope the graduates of the American school system are equipped with the tools that she so obviously lacks, or we can forget about being at the forefront of R&D.

  88. Narad says:

    Jenner said after years of smearing pus taken from children he hauled around riddled with small pox as living petridishes,

    “My suppositions were based on a fallacy, there is more disease than there was”

    Has the citation for this tidbit turned up yet? As reported, it seems to occur only in comments here and there from “sarah007,” “DrJohnson”/”MrJohnson,” and “orwell123.”

  89. Narad says:

    Ad hominen attack on James Randi

    Worked for Marc Stephens. Oh, wait.

  90. sarah007 says:

    Lilady said “And…what “problem” would that be, Sarah?”

    That you accept that your arthritis cannot be treated beyond symptomatic relief.

    David Logan said And it would appear, sadly, that each person who follows these eating guidelines is balanced by several hundred dollars in profit to Mercola et al.”

    This is not true, avoiding loads of sugar and eating more essential fatty acid foods is cheaper than eating lots of processed food and taking medicine to ‘treat’ the side effects. Why does it mean that Mercola makes money from telling us this information?

    “It’s sad to see people like Sarah007 who have suffered so much under the current paradigm.” I suffer not David as I don’t use the current paradym of disease managment, I have not seen a doctor for decades, my family doesn’t seek them for health advice either! If I am run over by a lorry rest assured I am grateful for the advances in acute combative trauma healthcare, but that’s about it, I pay tax for that anyway.

    Weing, wong again “This continues to stink of crap. She lacks the ability to fully digest any scientific/medical material”

    Most medical material is undigestable pap, why would I want to eat something that has little value to health care? Can someone suggest an anger managment course to Wong, I am worried about his CV health.

    Alverez was on the board of JRF so it’s not my fault if Randi decides to employ someone who has been indited for identity theft, perhaps he doesn’t care? That’s not an ad hom it’s a statement of fact.

  91. lilady says:

    “Lilady said “And…what “problem” would that be, Sarah?”

    And….

    “That you accept that your arthritis cannot be treated beyond symptomatic relief.”

    Troll…I’m not the one who confuses RA with OA. I’m not the one who equates Vitamin C intake to avoid/treat scurvy with the ingestion of more dietary or supplemental collagen to avoid/treat OA.

    Why don’t you take some basic science courses? A good start for a novice like you might be anatomy and physiology…then you “might” understand the inflammatory response and the pharmocology of NSAIDs for symptomatic relief.

  92. Harriet Hall says:

    Just for the record: rheumatoid arthritis (RA) is treated with disease-modifying drugs (DMARDs) that actually change the course of the disease to reduce deformity and disability. And of course there’s no evidence that any kind of diet prevents or cures it.

    I’d like to believe that eating right and having a healthy lifestyle could prevent all disease, but then there’s reality…

  93. weing says:

    @Sarah007,

    You continue to misread, showing, as Bugs would say, what a maroon you are. I care absolutely nothing about you. Not even enough to be angry. Disgusted by someone smearing stool? Yes. Grateful that we aren’t related? You bet.

  94. Chris says:

    lilady:

    Why don’t you take some basic science courses?

    Actually, Sarah may benefit more by taking some Adult Basic Education classes since she has some severe reading comprehension issues.

  95. WilliamLawrenceUtridge says:

    I’ve got to confess, I’ve absolutely no idea what Jose Luis Alvarez has to do with the current thread. He seems like a complete non sequitur mixed with a bit of Chewbacca defence.

  96. sarah007 says:

    Lilady missed the point again “ingestion of more dietary or supplemental collagen to avoid/treat OA. ”

    Taking supplements is not about diet reform dear, that’s a medical misconstruct and unfortunately you fell in that hole. All the people I know that have taken control of their arthritis would not consider that taking collagen suppements was part of their plan, I don’t know why you continue to misread this.

    “Why don’t you take some basic science courses? A good start for a novice like you might be anatomy and physiology…then you “might” understand the inflammatory response and the pharmocology of NSAIDs for symptomatic relief.”

    Only a complete fxxxwit would think that eating an atrophic diet and getting ill can be fixed by taking drugs that poison immune system flags for ‘doing something wrong’.

    If you are really that stupid that you would prefer to cling to a burning ship rather than swim for it I can’t help you. Has medicine disempowered your critical thinking this much? Are you unable to get a grip?

    Harriet said “Just for the record: rheumatoid arthritis (RA) is treated with disease-modifying drugs (DMARDs) that actually change the course of the disease to reduce deformity and disability. And of course there’s no evidence that any kind of diet prevents or cures it.

    I’d like to believe that eating right and having a healthy lifestyle could prevent all disease, but then there’s reality…”

    This is so good I had to copy the lot. So clever Harriet is so up herself with this medical belief crap that she cant even imagine that eating and staying healthy is connected, for almost every disease you can think of. Despite the fact that in papers posted here on measles myths that the most important factors in prognosis are well nourished and not vitamin A deficient. The WHO considers measles only to be fatal in the malnourished. Try reading some newer papers on cancer and MS in Scotland being linked to Vitamin D deficiency. Oh weren’t we told to slap on sun cream by doctors?

    So TNFI’s used in RA are disease modifying aren’t they Harriet, so modifying that you need a liver function test every few weeks to spot the point that your liver is melting down. Well I suppose that’s the wonder of scientific monitering for you.

    So Harriet will you be eating the new petri dish meat that scientists are planning to mass produce, I bloody well hope so, it will be a great experiment to watch you lot proove this one out!

  97. sarah007 says:

    Harriet this is bullshit “Just for the record: rheumatoid arthritis (RA) is treated with disease-modifying drugs (DMARDs) ”

    Treatment implies cure so DMARDS most certainly do not cure anything. How does medicine claim to cure anything when none of the drugs given in the vast majority of conditions is curing the disease?

    One plus two equals banana

  98. weing says:

    OK. I get it. Silly Sarah thinks the food you eat is the one true cause of all disease. How could we be so stupid to think that, while healthy eating habits are necessary for good health, it is not sufficient.

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