Articles

631 thoughts on “Quackery Then and Now

  1. Harriet Hall says:

    @rustichealthy,

    “So, what exactly will get you to change your mind and admit you were wrong?”

    I recently wrote about what it takes for the scientific consensus to change about any claim. See
    http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/what-would-it-take/

    I think you are saying that once you have had a personal experience that you interpret as supporting your belief, nothing could ever get you to question whether you might somehow have misinterpreted that experience.

    Let me ask you some slightly different questions: Other people have made mistakes due to misperceptions and misinterpretations: how can you be sure you are immune to similar errors?
    Do you reject any claims for natural treatments that other people have made? If so, why?
    How would you evaluate the claims of those countless people through the centuries who reported that bloodletting had balanced their humors and saved their lives? Would their experiences lead you to try it?

    What do you think about the study of people who KNEW from their experience that glucosamine was helping their arthritis but who couldn’t tell the difference when a placebo pill was substituted without their knowledge? Or those who KNEW from experience that aspartame gave them headaches but who didn’t get headaches when they were unaware they were getting aspartame and who had just as many headaches with placebos?

  2. Chris.. I still have my inhaler in case..I’m just happy to find other ways to deal with it, and I’m suggesting that conventional meds try to open their minds to it. I gave another’s own experience above. And, I gave a link to a study.

  3. Harriet Hall says:

    @rustichealthy,

    Hypothetical scenario: If you learned that your last several purchases of vitamin C had been replaced by sugar pills that looked exactly like your vitamins, and that you had been taking a placebo when you believed you were taking vitamin C, would that convince you that vitamin C was not really responsible for your improvement?

  4. pmoran says:

    Harriet: I am offended. I didn’t say I had “more” sympathy for them, and I don’t appreciate the accusation that I do. I was simply trying to explain why they react the way they do, trying to understand and “excuse” their behavior to some extent, which is exactly what you are trying to get us to do for CAM users.

    Yes, that’s the point. We have at least equal ability to understand the so-called “wilful ignorance” of the CAM user.

  5. Harriet:

    Other people have made mistakes due to misperceptions and misinterpretations:

    I can only say… If something sounds safe to me..I might try it…after looking more into it..and other’s experiences..as on EarthClinic.com..and some other home/natural remedy sites. I’d put it all together and determine if I think it will help or not, or if I’m willing to try it.

    how can you be sure you are immune to similar errors? ..we’re talking about vitamins, apple cider vinegar and baking soda.

    Do you reject any claims for natural treatments that other people have made? If so, why?

    Usually I’d say..I don’t know… there’s no way for me to know, unless I try it, and if it works on me or not..I wouldn’t know until I try it, or willing to try it. For instance..someone had kidney stones and found a remedy in 2 oz of olive oil, and 2 oz. of lemon juice. If I have a kidney stone, I’d probably be willing to try that.

    How would you evaluate the claims of those countless people through the centuries who reported that bloodletting had balanced their humors and saved their lives? Would their experiences lead you to try it?

    I’d probably seek professional help first.

    What do you think about the study of people who KNEW from their experience that glucosamine was helping their arthritis but who couldn’t tell the difference when a placebo pill was substituted without their knowledge? Or those who KNEW from experience that aspartame gave them headaches but who didn’t get headaches when they were unaware they were getting aspartame and who had just as many headaches with placebos?

    I can only speak from my own experience. If what I’m doing is placebo only,.. I’ve been taking less dangerous meds, but I’m doing better. Seems many people are healed with placebos then, in any case..I’d seek out less dangerous remedies first.

  6. Chris says:

    Rusti:

    So, what exactly will get you to change your mind and admit you were wrong?

    The funny thing is that many of us have admitted we were wrong (and I know I have seen Nybgrus admit to being wrong many times). What it takes is real data.

    I gave you my experience..and I just gave another’s experience ..(neither have gone through moderation as yet so this may be crossed) it’s interesting, he claims to be really helped with a “paleolithic” diet..I see at the bottom..mine seems to be fine going organic. There are some other test indications also…

    And what we mean by real data is not your N=1 experiences interpreted by yourself, or someone else’s N=1 experience interpreted by himself. It takes unbiased evaluation of the data with lots more samples, and I suggest you read the link provided by Scott on Placeboes and Asthma.

  7. Harriet:

    Hypothetical scenario: If you learned that your last several purchases of vitamin C had been replaced by sugar pills that looked exactly like your vitamins, and that you had been taking a placebo when you believed you were taking vitamin C, would that convince you that vitamin C was not really responsible for your improvement?

    Probably. but, my last bout with a pretty bad onset of a cold/flu kind of showed me it wasn’t a placebo.

  8. This is what I did…

    1 tsp. (organic) apple cider vinegar (antiseptic, alkalizes) and sinuses felt a little better

    followed by: 1 tsp. (organic) honey (antibacterial healing properties) and throat felt a little better

    with (organic) ceylon cinnamon 1/4 tsp. or so sprinkled on top of the honey (a powerful natural antibiotic)

    Did that a few times..then took..1 Vitamin C 1000 ….(a natural decongestant and antihistamine and immunity builder)

    and, I made a cup of organic black tea…(to help me warm up).

    Laid down for about an hour and cold had dissipated.

  9. I have a number of posts awaiting moderation…I’m going to be going ..Happy Fathers Day all Dads…have a good nite.

  10. Harriet Hall says:

    @pmoran,

    “Yes, that’s the point. We have at least equal ability to understand the so-called “wilful ignorance” of the CAM user.”

    Are you even listening? For the umpteenth time, we DO understand. The question is what, if anything, can be done to overcome it. You seem to think that being patient and nice and sympathetic and understanding will do the trick. We have tried that and it doesn’t work.

  11. weing says:

    @pmoran,

    “Yes, that’s the point. We have at least equal ability to understand the so-called “wilful ignorance” of the CAM user.”

    Would you prefer if we just became shruggies? Why not just expose their ignorance for what it is, so that others can avoid it.

  12. Darwy says:

    “There are over 160 synthetic pesticides that are listed to be possible carcinogens. Many of these pesticides are still in use. The US EPA has classification systems that identify carcinogens. The European Union does not have any list available on carcinogenic pesticides.”

    http://ec.europa.eu/food/plant/protection/pesticides/index_en.htm

    Just because you don’t know how to look for it, doesn’t mean it isn’t there.

  13. mousethatroared says:

    nybgrus to lizdtz -on the insults moron, idiot – “I agree. Though I feel that calling an idea idiotic or moronic is perfectly reasonable.”

    I completely agree with you that it’s more reasonable to criticize or insult the thought or action rather than the person.

    But I wonder if you’ve thought about the history of the word moron (and idiot) and if that history is something you want to continue to perpetuate in our culture.

    from Wikipedia – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_H._Goddard

    “At the May 18, 1910 annual meeting of the American Association for the Study of the Feeble-Minded, Goddard proposed definitions for a system for classifying individuals with mental retardation based on intelligence quotient (IQ). Goddard used the terms moron for those with an IQ of 51-70, imbecile for those with an IQ of 26-50, and idiot for those with an IQ of 0-25 for categories of increasing impairment. This nomenclature was the standard of the field for decades. A moron, by his definition, was any person with mental age between eight and twelve. Morons, according to Goddard, were unfit for society and should be removed from society either through institutionalization, sterilization, or both. What Goddard failed to see was that his bias against morons would greatly influence his data later.”

    “Goddard was a strong advocate of eugenics. Although he believed that “feeble-minded” people bearing children was inadvisable, he hesitated to promote compulsory sterilization – even though he was convinced that it would solve the problem of mental retardation – because he did not think such a plan could gain widespread acceptance. Instead he suggested that colonies should be set up where the feeble-minded could be segregated”

    Me Now – My father was born in the twenties, brought up with the whole eugenics ideal. I heard about those “morons” and “idiots” and how intelligent people should have big families so that the earth isn’t over run by “them” a good part of my childhood. Yeah, my dad had a very high IQ, physicist and 30+ engineering patents in his name, etc. I’m from a family of five kids.

    Goddard eventually reconsidered and then rejected his earlier work, but the cranks popularized the eugenics movements and the vocabulary.

    A little ironic to see the words popularized by cranks used to enthusiastically on SBM, I wonder if Alanis Morisette could work it into her song.

    I personally have no interest in perpetuating that mythology…regardless of whether it’s criticizing/ insulting a person or an action, idea.

  14. William..I’m not answering you anymore….just..maybe you missed this? This is what YOUR perfect, beyond question, superior ‘science’ produces..

    According to a study in leading US medical journal Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA), the US sees 106,000 deaths annually from medications correctly prescribed and correctly taken by patients. That’s about 290 every day, or one every five minutes. [JAMA 14/4/1998]* The same study also considered patients who were so badly injured by medications that they needed hospital treatment. These were calculated to be 2,250,000 hospital admissions each year. That’s over 6,000 every day, or one every 14 seconds.* In the UK, it has been estimated by the British Medical Journal that 10,000 people are killed every year by medical drugs. That’s 27 every day, or one every 53 minutes. BMJ 2004;329:15-19 (3 July)

    SPARE me the comparison of my belief in vitamins and natural remedies as dangerous and compare to the holocaust…now..f.o. :)

    Do mds get regular psyche evaluations?

  15. O my gosh..Vit. C MAY cause diarrhea..though , oddly, I’ve never gotten it, (not from Vit. C. anyway), not taking 1000 at a time..and more throughout day..if I needed it.

    Still…..the US sees 106,000 deaths annually from medications correctly prescribed and correctly taken by patients.

    um..again…Do mds get regular psyche evaluations?

  16. BillyJoe says:

    mousethatroared: “Alanis Morisette”

    Isn’t it ironic that you left an ‘s’ for “stupid” out of Alanis Morissette’s name. :D

    And isn’t it ironic that Alanis Morissette’s song “Ironic” shows that she does not understand the meaning of “ironic”?
    Well, she’s no Joni Mitchell.

  17. jbvtmeon..thanks for that link…

    jbvtmeon 13 Jun 2012 at 9:12 am

    on the issue of quackery…http://www.bmj.com/content/344/bmj.e3989

    http://www.bmj.com/content/344/bmj.e3989

    A report by a watchdog group has concluded that prescribed medicines are “one of the most significant perils to human health resulting from human activity.” The group based their conclusion on their analysis of the US Food and Drug Administration’s database of serious adverse events.

    The report was published on 31 May in QuarterWatch, a publication of the Institute for Safe Medication Practices, a non-profit organisation dedicated to “medication error prevention and safe medication use” based in Horsham, Pennsylvania.1 It calculated that in 2011 prescription drugs were associated with two to four million people in the US experiencing “serious, disabling, or fatal injuries,” including 128 000 deaths.

  18. I know most doctors mean well..but, I hope you all see what you’re trusting in, as, superior ‘science’, atleast before you speak about vitamins and food remedies, herbs, etc..as being ‘dangerous’.

  19. mousethatroared says:

    BillyJoe – HeHe S for stupid or spelling…I am the worse speller, thank God for spellcheck. But unfortunately it doesn’t work for names.

    Have you ever heard a song that more strongly called for better lyrics? Everytime I think of something ironic, I think ‘that should be in that ironic song.’

    I will say you are the first person who seemed to agree that her definition of ironic was mistaken. Meeting the man of your dreams… then meeting his wife is not ironic. It’s just unfortunate.

    Yeah, Joni Mitchell is far superior.

    But, I’m not sure if you had a deeper point about my post. Got three hours of sleep last night, subtlety will be lost on me.

  20. ^ Just read those posts by rustic. Do you really want to defend that idiot as if she’s merely an intelligent but misguided individual with stupid ideas? If so, shame on you for defending rank idiocy.

  21. WilliamLawrenceUtridge says:

    William..I’m not answering you anymore….just..maybe you missed this? This is what YOUR perfect, beyond question, superior ‘science’ produces..

    This is itself an answer, moron. And you’ve never “answered” me in the past – you’ve made claims, failed to substantiate them, ignored evidence that you’re wrong and repeated yourself.

    Are you going to admit that science has, in fact, done the exact studies you claim haven’t been done, the assessment of multi-gram megadoses of vitamin C? Of course not, you’ve already made up your mind and can’t bring yourself to admit you’re wrong. Blatantly, completely wrong, because you didn’t do the research, because you don’t know how.

    According to a study in leading US medical journal Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA), the US sees 106,000 deaths annually from medications correctly prescribed and correctly taken by patients. That’s about 290 every day, or one every five minutes. [JAMA 14/4/1998]* The same study also considered patients who were so badly injured by medications that they needed hospital treatment. These were calculated to be 2,250,000 hospital admissions each year. That’s over 6,000 every day, or one every 14 seconds.* In the UK, it has been estimated by the British Medical Journal that 10,000 people are killed every year by medical drugs. That’s 27 every day, or one every 53 minutes. BMJ 2004;329:15-19 (3 July)

    How many of those people would have died without those medications? You don’t know. How many would have ided taking vitamins instead of medications? The same number as those who died without the medications, because vitamins aren’t medicine. Science knows of a limited number of medicinal uses of vitamins (niacin for hypercholesterolemia being one, though with a risk of extreme skin flushing, fatigue, darkening skin, stomach upset and possible liver damage). When these uses are known and demonstrated, they are adopted.

    SPARE me the comparison of my belief in vitamins and natural remedies as dangerous and compare to the holocaust…now..f.o.

    Your ideas aren’t as dangerous of the holocaust, I was comparing you to a holocaust denier or creationist – you have the same conviction, and the same lack of proof for your reasoning. Science requires evidence for positive claims, not rhetoric. To say something is scientific means someone has tested it. Again, if vitamins have proven uses – these become part of medicine. CAM practitioners and morons like you don’t bother. You assert that vitamins are better than drugs, but don’t actually test any of this. Because again, you are ignorant. Unlike a scientist, you don’t know how vitamins are used by the body, their production, absorption, metabolism and breakdown. You just think they’re magic. Because you’re ignorant.

    But still, you feel the need to bark, and bark, and bark your empty words, and repeat what other people told you, because you can’t admit you’re wrong, or you might be wrong, or you might be putting your own health or your children’s health at risk.

    Still…..the US sees 106,000 deaths annually from medications correctly prescribed and correctly taken by patients.

    All this statement means is that drugs have risks – which is known. Only an idiot, like you, would believe that this means vitamins are medicine. They’re not. Your statement is equivalent to saying your car is red, therefore Jesus rode a dinosaur.

    um..again…Do mds get regular psyche evaluations?

    Not a doctor, just pissed at ignorant fucktards who criticize doctors without actually understanding what they do, how science works or how to think critically. You’re not thinking critically here, you’ve accepted a premise and are ignoring any contradictory information. You’re a sucker, a rube taken in by other ignorant rubes, who think that somehow life was better in the past and that nature always heal. You’ve joined a cult, you don’t want to admit it, and you don’t want to admit that you’re wrong, ignorant and endangering people. In addition to creationists and holocaust deniers, you’ve also go a lot in common with Bernie Madoff’s customers.

    I know most doctors mean well..but, I hope you all see what you’re trusting in, as, superior ‘science’, atleast before you speak about vitamins and food remedies, herbs, etc..as being ‘dangerous’.

    The danger of your stupid approach to health is that it delays real treatment, like Danielle who is going to die of breast cancer because she’s leaving it untreated. Trusting science means realizing all treatments carry risk – but they are actual treatments. It means realizing you can’t just trust experience and someone else’s word – you have to test. If your approaches had any merit, it would be demonstrable using science. Your suggestion to use vitamin C instead of real treatment for asthma could mean someone dying because their asthma is untreated.

  22. mousethatroared says:

    So if I think that rustichealthy is fooling herself and spreading her mistaken theories to her other readers, I must agree with everything that her other detractors say about her?

    Like “you’re either with me or against me” kinda thing?

    Not my style.

  23. mousethatroared says:

    Sorry, my above comment was addressed to SkepticalHealth…delay in posting may have caused confusion.

  24. weing says:

    I guess rusti thinks we prescribe warfarin and other drugs, mentioned in that article she keeps citing, for the common cold.

  25. Your suggestion to use vitamin C instead of real treatment for asthma could mean someone dying because their asthma is untreated.

    Um…COULD mean? You COULD die in 2 inches of water..you COULD choke on peanut butter…I have asthma..idiot..I hate calling a doctor “idiot”..sorry, I’m trying to show ‘respect’.., but your insane beyond B.S. allegations, ‘WARNINGS’ as if people are really THAT STUPID is beyond. People who have asthma have medicine usually, before seeking help in alternatives…they have asthma because they’ve been diagnosed..they usually have inhalers..”just in case” …..but you’re going to dismiss the 100,000′s of MILLIONS over the cumulative years of DEATHS from conventional medicine as ..so damned easy with…

    All this statement means is that drugs have risks – which is known.

    ?? Really, did all those people know? I don’t remember anyone telling me I could die from any medications I was prescribed.

    Oh..for pity’s sake..you’re Not a doctor..that probably is the best news I’ve heard in a decade.

  26. No weing, but I’m sure you would never imagine a strong cold/flu gone in an hour. I never did.

  27. ^^ The writings of a future Nobel laureate.

  28. weing says:

    No weing, but I’m sure you would never imagine a strong cold/flu gone in an hour. I never did.
    Depends on how good your imagination is. If you imagine you have a cold, it can be gone in 5 minutes.

  29. Chris says:

    Rusti:

    apple cider vinegar (antiseptic, alkalizes)

    Why should care what you think when you claim that vinegar alkalizes? Even after you have been told multiple times it is an acid.

    You do not seem to be able to learn, nor admit you are wrong.

  30. Chris..lemons are acidic, but they alkalize in the body..so does apple cider vinegar.

  31. WilliamLawrenceUtridge says:

    Thought you weren’t talking to me.

    Your suggestion to use vitamin C instead of real treatment for asthma could mean someone dying because their asthma is untreated.

    Um…COULD mean? You COULD die in 2 inches of water..you COULD choke on peanut butter…I have asthma..idiot..

    Absolutely, asthma could cause asphixiation (as could water and peanut butter, particularly if aspirated). Asthma kills 20 children and 500 adults in Canada every year and most deaths are not in a hospital. So your advice is indeed deadly. It encourages people to avoid treatment that could keep them alive. This is in addition to the corrosive affect your advocacy has on trust and understanding of science. All forms of knowing are not equal, and your personal experience is not an adequate test for the effectiveness of medical interventions. You are arrogant in your ignorance, criticizing things you do not understand by lying about their simplicity.

    Low risk doesn’t mean no risk. Your stupid advice is equivalent to telling a new mother that it’s fine to answer the door while her baby is in the bath because it’s only 2 inches of water. The chances of death might be low – but they’re still there.

    I hate calling a doctor “idiot”..sorry, I’m trying to show ‘respect’.., but your insane beyond B.S. allegations, ‘WARNINGS’ as if people are really THAT STUPID is beyond. People who have asthma have medicine usually, before seeking help in alternatives…they have asthma because they’ve been diagnosed..they usually have inhalers..”just in case” …..but you’re going to dismiss the 100,000′s of MILLIONS over the cumulative years of DEATHS from conventional medicine as ..so damned easy with…

    People have asthma because people have asthma, not because they are diagnosed. Asthma does kill; this is not a potential thing, people die every year because of asthma. In the United States, nine people die every day because of asthma.

    If you want to show respect, please read the links I’m providing and educate yourself on the topics you attempt to provide information on.

    People die due to adverse reactions to medications. Does that mean vitamin C is an effective treatment for asthma?

    ?? Really, did all those people know? I don’t remember anyone telling me I could die from any medications I was prescribed.

    In which case, you should report your doctor and/or pharmacist for malpractice. All medications should come with a packaging insert listing common and rare adverse effects.

    How many people benefited from the medications you are claiming have adverse effects? If a medicine saves 9,999 lives but one person dies of an adverse effect – should the medication be sold? Nearly all criticisms of adverse effects by CAM advocates completely ignore the fact that medications save lives. And scholarly criticisms of adverse effects are about improving safety profiles, better prescribing practices, improved patient awareness and safer drugs – not eliminating them. It would be wonderful to live in a world with no disease, or medications with no adverse effects. We do not live in such a world – so we try to improve it.

    Pretending vitamins treat diseases does not improve the world – it merely enriches those who sell vitamins (like Joe Mercola).

    Science is about describing and understanding reality. If vitamins really cure cancer, we can show it. Scientists have looked, and it hasn’t been positive though there are <a href = "http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22005522"potential exceptions.

  32. Chris says:

    Rusti:

    Chris..lemons are acidic, but they alkalize in the body..so does apple cider vinegar.

    Again, that is physically impossible, something you have been told many times. It doesn’t even make sense. Why should we care what you say when you refuse to learn, and will not admit to being wrong?

  33. @WLU
    Absolutely, asthma could cause asphixiation (as could water and peanut butter, particularly if aspirated). Asthma kills 20 children and 500 adults in Canada every year and most deaths are not in a hospital. So your advice is indeed deadly.

    http://www.doctoryourself.com/nodeaths.html

    Zero Deaths from Vitamins, Minerals, Amino Acids or Herbs:
    Poison Control Statistics Prove Supplements’ Safety Yet Again

    (OMNS Jan 5, 2011) There was not even one death caused by a dietary supplement in 2009, according to the most recent information collected by the U.S. National Poison Data System.

    The new 200-page annual report of the American Association of Poison Control Centers, published in the journal Clinical Toxicology, shows zero deaths from multiple vitamins; zero deaths from any of the B vitamins; zero deaths from vitamins A, C, D, or E; and zero deaths from any other vitamin.

    Additionally, there were no deaths whatsoever from any amino acid, herb, or dietary mineral supplement.

    Two people died from non-nutritional mineral poisoning, one from a sodium salt and one from an iron salt or iron. On page 1139, the AAPCC report specifically indicates that the iron fatality was not from a nutritional supplement. One other person is alleged to have died from an “Unknown Dietary Supplement or Homeopathic Agent.” This claim remains speculative, as no verification information was provided.

    http://gethealthybehappy.yolasite.com/comments-and-new-findings/my-placebos-work

  34. PJLandis says:

    Hey, I heard that Vitamin C is real good for asthma…anyone else hear about this?

  35. Chris says:

    Rusti, may I remind you that repeating wrongness after being corrected multiple times shows that you have a closed mind. You refuse to learn, and continue to admit that you are wrong.

    Those are reasons that you should be ignored. So, again, get a new hobby. Something like trying to grow most of your own food organically.

  36. Chris says:

    Oops, I meant to type: “continue to never admit that you are wrong.”

  37. mousethatroared says:

    PJLandis “Hey, I heard that Vitamin C is real good for asthma…anyone else hear about this?”

    Really? I used to take Vitamin C because a friend told me it would prevent colds…But then I got asthma. I figured that vitamin C caused asthma. ;)

  38. weing says:

    What if someone has a bad case of asthma and reads on SBM that Vitamin C will take care of it. They take the Vitamin C, instead of their prescribed meds, but asthma gets worse and they die at home. Will the statistics show that asthma killed them, vitamin C, or their stupidity? How do we know vitamins and supplements haven’t killed people in a similar manner?

  39. weing..well..I do know this…

    According to a study in leading US medical journal Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA), the US sees 106,000 deaths annually from medications correctly prescribed and correctly taken by patients. That’s about 290 every day, or one every five minutes. [JAMA 14/4/1998]* The same study also considered patients who were so badly injured by medications that they needed hospital treatment. These were calculated to be 2,250,000 hospital admissions each year. That’s over 6,000 every day, or one every 14 seconds.* In the UK, it has been estimated by the British Medical Journal that 10,000 people are killed every year by medical drugs. That’s 27 every day, or one every 53 minutes. BMJ 2004;329:15-19 (3 July)

    http://www.vivisectioninformation.com/index.php?p=1_4_Adverse-reactions-humans-injured-by-animal-tests

    and..

    A report by a watchdog group has concluded that prescribed medicines are “one of the most significant perils to human health resulting from human activity.” The group based their conclusion on their analysis of the US Food and Drug Administration’s database of serious adverse events.

    The report was published on 31 May in QuarterWatch, a publication of the Institute for Safe Medication Practices, a non-profit organisation dedicated to “medication error prevention and safe medication use” based in Horsham, Pennsylvania.1 It calculated that in 2011 prescription drugs were associated with two to four million people in the US experiencing “serious, disabling, or fatal injuries,” including 128 000 deaths.

    According to the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, 48% of the …

    http://www.bmj.com/content/344/bmj.e3989

    and, I trust someone knows if something is working or not, especially an asthmatic.

  40. WilliamLawrenceUtridge says:

    http://www.doctoryourself.com/nodeaths.html

    http://gethealthybehappy.yolasite.com/comments-and-new-findings/my-placebos-work

    Neither weblinks is a reputable source. Further, the first quotes orthomolecular practitioners, a brand of quackery that asserts, like you do, that vitamins and minerals are medicines (which they are – they treat nutritional deficiencies, and have adverse effects depending on the dose and purpose for which they are used; orthomolecular nutters think vitamins and minerals are risk-free panaceas, and they are wrong).

    But by using both links you seem to have missed an important point I made in my previous post – vitamins and minerals may not themselves be exceptionally risky (though they do present both acute and chronic risks) but using vitamin C instead of asthma medication is dangerous. So is eschewing cancer treatment in favour of vitamins, digestive enzymes and smoothies. Danielle drinking a bottle of vinegar a day isn’t risky, but it leaves her cancer untreated and that’ll kill her just as dead as a bullet. It’ll just take longer and hurt a whole fuck of a lot more.

    That is the main danger.

  41. WLU..neither are gov links.

  42. weing says:

    @rusti,

    So you still think those patients were getting meds like coumadin for colds and asthma? They could’ve gotten apple cider vinegar and vitamin C and they would’ve lived?

  43. It seems millions would have had a better chance not taking meds, and taking vitamins and other nutrients instead. An organic food supply would be even better (without more drugs, hormones, antibiotics and toxins)

  44. weing says:

    @rusti,
    Maybe those bad doctors were also prescribing also carboplatin, antibiotics, and ACE inhibitors for colds and asthma? If any doctor tried to prescribe me any of those things for a cold, I would definitely tell them where to go.

  45. weing says:

    “It seems millions would have had a better chance not taking meds, and taking vitamins and other nutrients instead.”

    Really? What is your basis for that claim? Do you mean not taking those meds for colds? For someone with advanced ovarian cancer, for example, do you seriously think taking vitamins and nutrients would be better than carboplatin? Do you really think those patients are told that carboplatin is perfectly safe? Have you ever considered the number needed to treat versus the number needed to harm?

  46. Chris says:

    Again, Rusti, why should we care about what you think?

  47. weing says:

    @rusti,
    How about someone with a DVT and history of pulmonary embolism? You would give them vitamins/supplements and thus make their coumadin ineffective? They will thank you that they don’t get a GI bleed. What’s the big deal if they drop dead from a recurrent PE? The vitamins couldn’t harm them. Everyone knows that.

  48. All I’m asking is, that dr.’s look a little more into “First, Do No Harm” meds…why is that asking too much? And, stop this ridiculous attack on everything that isn’t a toxin.

  49. weing says:

    I need a sarcasm icon.

  50. weing says:

    “All I’m asking is, that dr.’s look a little more into “First, Do No Harm” meds…why is that asking too much?”

    That’s sort of like trying to teach your grandma to suck eggs.

  51. PJLandis says:

    “I love organic foods, but I’ll tell you what, my son is just crazy about that stuff; huh, must mean everything else is toxic and Vitamin C cures asthma. Have you seen my website? It’s all natural, I built it without toxins or chemicals just organic computer code. Anyone else have asthma? I’m not saying Vitamin C will cure it, but it worked for me and some other people who comment on the internet. About that internet, have you seen my website? Apparently people are dying from taking ‘conventional medicines’, must be poison in those medicines.

    I’ll tell you what, conventional doctors sure can diagnose up a storm; they even diagnosed me with asthma, but then they tried to poison me with an inhaler…did I mention that Vitamin C cured me asthma? I’m not saying it works, but it worked for me…and I didn’t need no ‘clinical murder trial’ to prove that, nope I just tried it myself and now my asthma is cured, except for when it isn’t, but did I tell you about the time Vitamin C cured my asthma? Yes? Okay, then visit my website.”

    Remind you of anyone?

  52. PJLandis says:

    Forgive us Rusty, we’re honestly confused about what you mean by “toxin”. I take it vitamins, like the one that cured your asthma, is not a toxin…right?

  53. Chris says:

    Rusti:

    All I’m asking is, that dr.’s look a little more into “First, Do No Harm” meds

    Except that is what they do. Your proposals are actually more dangerous since they don’t work. You’ve been told this several times, but you will not learn nor even admit you are wrong.

    And that did not answer my question. I did not ask why you are here, I asked why we should care about what you say. Really, if you have no education and make so many errors, why should we care about what you say?

  54. I love all the “VITAMINS NEVER HURTZ ANY1!!!!” Didn’t we just have a slew of studies showing that multivitamins increase mortality in older women, vitamin E significantly causes prostate cancer, vitamin A stroke, Calcium I believe increased risk of myocardial infarction. Nearly every supplement is toxic to some organ (ie saw palmetto is hepatotoxic, etc.)

    PURE LUNACY!

  55. mousethatroared says:

    weing – you have been looking for a sarcasm icon for at least two years now. Did you know that vitamin C will improve your cognitive powers, cure your baldness, and expand the size of your…icon library?

    I mean we already “know” it cures asthma, it must work for those thing too. ;)

  56. I had prostate cancer and vitamin C cured it. I could feel it coming on so I Just took an E!?Extra dose and it went away. It’ so much better than — did you know—a-1- toxic chemicals from con meds.

  57. WilliamLawrenceUtridge says:

    What are “gov” links? Do you mean government? Are you talking about the links you posted, or my links? I was pointing out the links you used were not reliable. Though generally links to government websites are an adequate representation of the mainstream medical position supported by empirical research. You’d be far better served looking there for information than the sites you’ve linked to so far.

    It seems millions would have had a better chance not taking meds, and taking vitamins and other nutrients instead. An organic food supply would be even better (without more drugs, hormones, antibiotics and toxins)

    Millions would die actually, as well as suffer needlessly.

    The US populace at large gets adequate nutrients. We know what nutrient deficiencies look like (scurvy, beriberi, goiter, rickets). Most have an overabundance of nutrients (obesity). An “organic” food supply would dramatically increase the cost of food, require a massive investment of money and labour into cultivating, weeding and eliminating pests, require us to tear up most of the remaining forests covering the planet (causing intensive soil erosion in the process) and there’s still a pretty good chance the world would starve in the process. Organic food is debatably higher in nutrients, and probably isn’t worth the investment of time and effort since most of the first world isn’t deficient in nutrients anyway.

    And a question – pre-1900 there were no hormones, pesticides or other “toxins”. Yet somehow people live decades longer than they did in the 19th century. Please, explain.

    All I’m asking is, that dr.’s look a little more into “First, Do No Harm” meds…why is that asking too much? And, stop this ridiculous attack on everything that isn’t a toxin.

    Because an absolute ban on doing any harm, ever, would prevent any doctor from undertaking any treatment, ever. A treatments, all medicines, all recommendations bear risks. The relevant arithmetic is a comparison of risk to benefit. “First do no harm” would have precluded my doctor from nipping off that black spot slowly getting bigger on my toe (it was benign, but I’m still glad he took it off). “First do no harm” would preclude your recommendations, since vitamins themselves can be toxic.

    We do not live in a risk-free world. Proper nutrition does not lead to perfect health. Pretending it does, and dispensing advice along this vein, and dissuading others from seeking treatment, these things do harm.

  58. pmoran says:

    So, what exactly will get you to change your mind and admit you were wrong?

    Wrong in what respect? We are discussing your claim and all we are saying is that on the available evidence, even after giving due weight to experiences such as yours, it is unlikely, and certainly not proven that the vitamin C was responsible for the improvements you noted in your asthma.

    Strong additional evidence could change that opinion. If that emerged it would not necessarily mean that we were “wrong” right now, just as very early man would not been wrong to think that the earth was flat on the evidence available to him in early times.

    I think people are reacting to your implication that you have arrived at an absolute scientific truth. I detect a hint in what you write at other times that you are aware that your evidence falls short of that. You merely wish that the medical profession took such experiences as yours more seriously. Is that an accurate portrayal of your mind?

  59. David Gorski says:

    Re: Vitamin C.

    I’ve written about it in nauseating detail at least twice:

    http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/high-dose-vitamin-c-and-cancer-has-linus-pauling-been-vindicated/
    http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/vitamin-c-strikes-out-again/

    Basically, there’s no there there, if you know what I mean. At the very best, it might have a very, very minor effect but only at the cost of gram-quantity doses that actually cause osmotic problems. As I put it at the time, it’s a really long run for a really short slide. Any other substance with the properties of vitamin C when it comes to cancer would have been abandoned long ago because the effects (if there even are any) are too small and the doses required to achieve those effects are too huge. Let’s put it this way. If a pharmaceutical company came up with a compound that has the properties of vitamin C and tried to sell it as a treatment for cancer, the CAM advocates would go wild.

  60. PJLandis..

    Forgive us Rusty, we’re honestly confused about what you mean by “toxin”. I take it vitamins, like the one that cured your asthma, is not a toxin…right?

    PJ..if I said it was a toxin..would you then be okay with it?

  61. Chris…

    Your proposals are actually more dangerous since they don’t work. You’ve been told this several times, but you will not learn nor even admit you are wrong.

    http://gethealthybehappy.yolasite.com/comments-and-new-findings/my-placebos-work

  62. pmoran….nybgrus said…

    # nybgruson 17 Jun 2012 at 2:20 pm

    How about it Rustic? What would you consider to be sufficient to get you to change your mind about what you have been discussing? Purely hypothetically speaking of course – what can you possibly imagine could be presented to you that would make you realize and admit you are wrong? I can think of what would make me admit that I am wrong and agree with you.

    I was asking nybgrus what would get him to admit that he/she were wrong and agree with me.

    This is to all …

    This is the thing..if someone gives their experience…isn’t it “polite” :) to atleast say..”hmmm..I don’t know about that”…”we’ll have to look into it”. What if your patient said that..doctor..this and this happened. Would you ask him for a clinical study on it first before believing him? tell him he’s a moron, idiot, it’s not in my books..etc etc. .. That’s what I had to think about when I went to the doctors..not to tell them what happened and how I’m feeling better. It’s strange to me to hear from those who are into ‘healing’ be so closed and ornery even sometimes, when something is against what they are taught ‘healing’ is..which in con meds case is what the pharmas say it seems. I’d understand if you all had stock in pharmas..ok then..I’d get it.:) But, I don’t believe that’s the case either for most.

    Where’s the ‘science’ in denying so many many things…honestly..1000′s having other home remedies that worked, because their doctor’s medicine didn’t…..please..go to EarthClinic.com and tell me that all those people are lunatics, morons, liars, frauds, idiots etc..when they speak of their natural remedies they’ve tried and worked..(one taking olive oil and lemon juice to relieve painful kidney stones that they had no relief from in medicines) on illnesses that only seem to get worse in con med world..like hbp, diabetes, even cancer..when nothing else did. Can you all honestly say “well..it’s just not clinically (in the pharma) tested! so therefore it isn’t?

    I don’t have all the tests, information, labs, etc. to prove anything I say. I’m only amazed at the reactions and accusations and allegations I’ve gotten since going on line and speaking of them. Now I’m accused of actually being Dangerous?! wow..considering how I then I read how MILLIONS are dead because of taking their prescriptions..as told..and I’m dangerous.

    Just to clear..I didn’t say Vit. C was the only vitamin I took..it was the first, and it did help..but not entirely..I had to find others. There were no books or other information I had… I’m not saying it works for all, I’m saying it’s something to look into, and maybe there were other things that would help, things that are less truly dangerous than things like steroids and antibiotics, etc. . It’s too bad, but, most people are left to find out for themselves, and not from their doctors.

  63. WilliamLawrenceUtridge says:

    Looks like Barky has a bit of “The Secret” going on as well:

    I would like to address this here and now. If my vitamin C didn’t work, I willed it to work, and, it worked. If my calcium supplements didn’t help with my arthritis, then, I “willed” them to work, and, they worked!

    Any sensible person would see this as an admission that they didn’t know whether vitamins and minerals did anything for his/her health. Not Barky. Nope, vitamins working means magic exists!

    So..people who die of cancer (or asthma, or heart disease), they deserved it? They just didn’t hope hard enough? They gave up? You’re the only person in the history of the world who wanted to cure their condition and just wished hard enough? Go over to the MS thread and tell them that, they’ll really appreciate it.

    I’ve a simpler explanation – you’ve been wrong for years in your conviction that vitamins are magic. They’re not. We know what vitamins do – and it ain’t “curing asthma”. Vitamin C helps connective tissue rebuild itself. Vitamin D helps control calcium in bones and blood. Vitamin A is metabolized into the light-absorbing molecule retinal.

    And I noticed how you dodged the question about toxins – and I know why. You know your definition of a “toxin” is idiosyncratic, and you know if you make a positive claim, you’ll get shot down. So you take refuge in coyness, a failure to answer directly, a curious reluctance to say what you actually think. Probably by now you may have an inkling that you might not be as right as you thought about toxins, and you don’t want to say anything more because it might force you to realize the true extent of your ignorance. There is, of course, a cure for that. Read. Actually learn how the body works, how vitamins, minerals and food are used, and join the skeptics in being ignorant about many things, but knowing and admitting that ignorance, while also being certain on what we do know. Science led to to double-digit growths in lifespan over the past century, not vitamins. People had vitamins before, and they died in droves. Vitamins aren’t magic, and toxins are relatively rare in the first world. To the point that we’re shocked by the death of a child now, instead of resigned to the death of another child. Science is awesome, and it thrives on challenging assumptions and crushing dreams.

  64. PJLandis says:

    “if I said it was a toxin..would you then be okay with it?”

    I don’t have an issue with vitamins, they’re essential, but I don’t think more vitamins are necessarily better. I’ve taken Vitamin C, daily for months, and if personal anecdotes are so important to you I can honestly say I didn’t notice any positive effect then and I haven’t noticed any ill effects since I stopped taking them several years ago. Since they don’t appear to be having any effect, and I get more than enough Vitamin C via my diet, I thought it was healthier not to keep pumping myself full of vitamins for no discernible reason.

    Personally, I don’t think the term ‘toxins’ is all that meaningful. Most things can be harmful, helpful, or neutral depending on how or how much you eat, drink, snort, or inject, and vitamins are a good example. They’re essential to healthy bodily function, but they can also be toxic if you take too much or the wrong combinations. But more importantly, there is good evidence (those dreaded clinical trials that lie so much!) that taking vitamins and other dietary supplements does nothing so I prefer not to waste my money on them.

    But I guess you answered my question already, it’s toxic if Rusty says it is…and Rusty says conventional medicines are toxic, so it must be true!

  65. Here’s the olive oil/lemon juice incident..

    01/07/2006: Cyndi from Durham, NC writes: “I have suffered intermittently from kidney stones for nearly 9 years. One was so bad I had to have surgery to remove it. Later, my grandmother was hospitalized with a kidney stone and told me about a home remedy given to her by a nurse and believe me, this really works! Mix 2 oz of olive oil and 2 oz of lemon juice, drink it straight down and follow with a large glass of water at the first sign of stone pain. The stone(s) will pass within 24 hours. I have eliminated at least 8 stones with this remedy and have not gone back to the urologist since I started taking this.”

    Are you going to tell me she’s a liar/lunatic/fraud/dangerous..etc etc?

  66. On DoctorYourself.com…this is the story of Dr. Saul..if you all wanted to read…

    http://www.doctoryourself.com/howstart.html

    and how he ‘got into this’.

  67. PJ…tell me if my line of thinking is wrong on non-organic foods, and then conventional medicines here…

    http://gethealthybehappy.yolasite.com/what-do-we-get.php

  68. Chris says:

    Again, Rusti, answer the question I asked. I don’t want a link to your website, I want you to tell us here why we should care about what you say. Tell us in your own words when you refuse to learn and refuse to admit you are wrong why we should care about what you say.

    Tell us here in a comment. No more links.

    Really, why should we care about what you think?

  69. Chris..you should care what I think because…what I think has gotten me healed (not entirely..they will come back) of asthma, arthritis, allergies, (my son’s), hypothyroidism, weight loss by cutting out toxins in reg. food and going organic. And, I thought you doctors would be interested and ‘care’ about how people are healed, even if it’s not pharma clinically tested. And, not just me, but many many others, all that are not in your health books and clinical trials. Do I know the cure for Everything? no, but, heck, asthma, arthritis, allergies, hbp, ..those seem to be good things to find out how others have been helped with other things than ‘standard medical procedure’..and maybe save a lot of time and money too.

  70. And, somehow, I ‘placeboed’ my way out of colds for the last 3 or so years…even though I am very susceptible to them, and when my asthma acts up too.

  71. Correction: Do I know the placebo for everything? (not the cure), ? no..not that good in the force yet :)

  72. William, just wondering, if you’re not Otto, (of CL Health & Healing renown) are you his twin brother?

    So..people who die of cancer (or asthma, or heart disease), they deserved it? They just didn’t hope hard enough? They gave up? You’re the only person in the history of the world who wanted to cure their condition and just wished hard enough? Go over to the MS thread and tell them that, they’ll really appreciate it.

    No, that’s not what I’m saying…nice pathetic twist though!

  73. BillyJoe says:

    8:52 pm here and I’ve just experienced my first earthquake ever.
    It’s okay, no damage, everyone is fine, and all is well.

  74. This is someone who responded to my placebo suggestion of apple cider vinegar for her hemorrhoids… (crystbear is my former nic on Craigs List)…

    wow.. thankyou! crystbear! (2 days later!)
    as soon as you said yeast infection, i knew it.. that’s what it felt like originally coming on, but i knew they were
    hemmroids and i didn’t put the two together. i immediately applied acv directly and while it burned it was nothing
    compared to the burning insatible itch.. anyways… i just keep applying when ever i get a tickle down there and i
    havn’t had to scratch my butt for 2 days now. i’m so happy i think i can handle this w/o a doctor. :)”physician heal thyself”.i’ve also started to drink acv..it’s something i’ve wanted to have in my diet anyways..also just going
    forward with as raw and fresh as possible.. oh and i’m even more inspired to cut waaaay back on the alchohol cuz i know that is not helping anything.. peace*

    What should I think about that? I never tried it, only put it together, considering it to be a form of yeast infection..suggested ACV, because that’s what I read was good for yeast infection.

  75. nybgrus says:

    @rusti:

    I was asking nybgrus what would get him to admit that he/she were wrong and agree with me.

    Basic scientific data demonstrating biological plausibility plus a decent study or two. Essentially, the exact same thing that will get me to agree anything is working.

    This is the thing..if someone gives their experience…isn’t it “polite” to atleast say..”hmmm..I don’t know about that”…”we’ll have to look into it”.

    And this is where you are fundamentally wrong. You are confusing being polite with being correct.

    If someone tells me “In my experience the world is flat. I’ve walked for as far as I can every day for years and years and years and never once seen the earth curve or fallen off” would it be reasonable to say “hmmm… i don’t know about that” and “let me look into it?” No. That person is wrong – their experience cannot be trusted.

    That is what we are saying here. There is nothing to consider in your claims since we know them to be false. We believe that you believe what you say and that you genuinely think these things happened to you and that your explanations account for them. What we are saying is that not only do we know that they do not add up, but we also know that there are myriad reasons why someone would be mistaken like you are.

    What if your patient said that..doctor..this and this happened. Would you ask him for a clinical study on it first before believing him? tell him he’s a moron, idiot, it’s not in my books..etc etc.

    No. I would not call my patient a liar, moron, or idiot. But I would explain to my patient why he/she was incorrect and why their idea on the topic was simply false.

  76. BillyJoe..wow..good to hear no one is hurt. Where do you live?

  77. @BillyJoe, too bad you didn’t take vitamin C, it would have prevented the earthquake :) (Glad you’re ok.)

  78. BillyJoe says:

    “Are you going to tell me she’s a liar/lunatic/fraud/dangerous.”

    How on Earth would we know?
    She could be deluded. She could have a mental illness. She could be posting as a dare. She could be posting for a laugh. She could be lying. She could be exaggerating, consciously or unconsciously.
    We don’t know her from a bar of soap.

    1. Harriet Hall says:

      @Rustichealthy, “Are you going to tell me she’s a liar/lunatic/fraud/dangerous.”

      No. But even if she is honest and reliable in recounting what she did and what happened, she is almost certainly wrong in attributing her improvement to the treatment.

      I will let hope triumph over experience one more time and try to explain to you: A testimonial shows that a person tried a remedy and got better; it does not establish that they got better BECAUSE OF the remedy. The whole history of medical science is full of people who firmly believed a remedy worked and who were proven wrong. You heard from one person who thought that worked, but there might be many more people out there who tried it and thought it didn’t work – you just haven’t heard from them. You say you have warded off colds for three years and have had cold symptoms disappear in hours; but I haven’t had a cold in many more years than that, and we know enough about viral infections to know that they can’t disappear that rapidly. We believe you when you tell us your experiences, but we are reasonably confident that you have misinterpreted your experiences in the light of your beliefs. That is very natural and understandable because of the way the human mind works, and scientific thinking doesn’t come naturally to us, but if we want to understand reality science is the only way.

      We respect your right to believe whatever you want and to take whatever “natural” remedies you think are helping you. We do not accept your conclusions about actual effectiveness, and we are concerned that if you spread your views to others, some of them might waste their time with ineffective treatments instead of using those that are proven effective. People have died because of your kind of thinking. Just look at the What’s the Harm? website for examples.

  79. BillyJoe says:

    Here is the report of the earthquake: http://quakes.globalincidentmap.com/

  80. nybgrus…I should correct the question..isn’t it “logical” .. it seems more presumptuous on conventional mds part that they have all the information possible to know. And, actually, I would not have questioned it myself..(that mds know more than me, and have all the information possible) except, my experience said otherwise…and then I read how others have experiences that say otherwise.

  81. WilliamLawrenceUtridge says:

    Well, Barky was making some progress and is back to being stupid again.

    Here’s the olive oil/lemon juice incident..

    01/07/2006: Cyndi from Durham, NC writes: “I have suffered intermittently from kidney stones for nearly 9 years. One was so bad I had to have surgery to remove it. Later, my grandmother was hospitalized with a kidney stone and told me about a home remedy given to her by a nurse and believe me, this really works! Mix 2 oz of olive oil and 2 oz of lemon juice, drink it straight down and follow with a large glass of water at the first sign of stone pain. The stone(s) will pass within 24 hours. I have eliminated at least 8 stones with this remedy and have not gone back to the urologist since I started taking this.”

    Are you going to tell me she’s a liar/lunatic/fraud/dangerous..etc etc?

    And let’s see what the treatment for kidney stones is:

    Fortunately, surgery is not usually necessary. Most kidney stones can pass through the urinary system with plenty of water-2 to 3 quarts a day-to help move the stone along. Often, the patient can stay home during this process, drinking fluids and taking pain medication as needed.

    So, Barky, how do you know the stone didn’t pass simply because Cindi is drinking more water? You don’t. What you’ve got here is post hoc ergo propter hoc. For this anecdote to have any meaning, you have to assume the following:
    - Cindi exists
    - Cindi is telling the truth
    - Cindi undertook no other lifestyle modifications
    - Cindi is following any of the basic, easy recommendations to address kidney stones (i.e. water)
    - Cindi’s symptoms were not unusually bad when she got this advice

    The last one is particularly important. When symptoms are at their worst, two things are likely to happen – patients try new things, and symptoms are likely to get better due to regression to the mean. This is fertile ground for post hoc reasoning, and is one of the main reasons for insisting on experimental controls.

    Why are you refering us to the life story of an ignorant idiot who uses homeopathy to treat the worried well?

    A, Candida, the preferred fake ailment of the 1990s. Get with the program, don’t you know the latest fake health scare is Lyme disease and Morgellons? That’s the best way to part the ignorant from their money when they’re feeling old but don’t want to.

    You’re such a moron, unable to see your own ignorance and arrogant in your ability to pretend complex problems are simple.

  82. Putting everything aside…this is a story about a testimony of a pharmaceutical sales rep…

    I have been crippled for over 3 years with damage to my brain and my nerves and tendons. I am still on narcotics and Lyrica to help minimize my suffering. Tens of thousands of people are crippled each year from quinolone antibiotics. Ironically, I was a pharmaceutical sales rep. Please visit my blog: http://www.Levaquinadversesideeffect.com
    Also, please visit: Antibiotics.org Fqresearch.org Fqvictims.org
    and Favc.info These are all good sites that point out the long term and permanent damage from these toxic antibiotics. Sincerely, John

    Read more at Suite101: Dangers of Fluoroquinolones: Cipro and Some Other Antibiotics Can Cause Severe Adverse Reactions | Suite101.com http://suite101.com/article/dangers-of-fluoroquinolones-a67343#ixzz1yFmUtcBH

    I don’t know what you prescribe, just wanted to ask if any of you would consider the real danger of atleast some meds. and reconsider prescribing any.

  83. @rustichealthy,

    I have been crippled for over 3 years with damage to my brain.

    Yes, I agree. Unfortunately the damage seems to be irreversible and progressive.

    (I can’t believe anyone disagreed with calling this person an idiot. She fits the very definition of the word.)

  84. William, I was more than relieved that you’re not a doctor…now I’m seriously hoping you’re not in any medical field. Where do you work/live. That was the man’s story..%*((*(^%…why you’re still allowed here is the question.

  85. Skeptical..tell me you’re not a doctor too..please.

  86. If not, at least that would explain a little.

  87. Skeptical…This should have gone to you…”That was the man’s story.

    and…%*((*(^%…why you’re still allowed here is the question.” goes to both you and WLU

  88. and, WLU.. so she was suffering for 9 years..that’s 9 YEARS..and now she has relief just so happening with the olive oil and lemon juice? …and this was on ehow.com

    http://www.ehow.com/how_5087458_treat-lemon-juice-olive-oil.html

    no supporting research..yet it worked on Cindi..for some weird reason.

    1. Harriet Hall says:

      “now she has relief just so happening with the olive oil and lemon juice?”

      I know that’s impressive to you, but coincidences do happen. Symptoms do resolve on their own with time. It is typical for someone to try a series of treatments and when their symptoms resolve they give the credit to whatever they tried last. When you find a lost object, it’s always in the last place you looked.

      You have had positive experiences, but you apparently have not had the kind of experiences that are so common in the history of medicine, where people recovered spontaneously and falsely gave the credit to the last useless remedy they had tried.

  89. mousethatroared says:

    BillyJoe – Earthquake, that must have been weird. Glad things are okay!

  90. Chris says:

    Rusti:

    Chris..you should care what I think because…what I think has gotten me healed ….

    Key word: “think.” You “think” the things you did worked, but yet refuse to listen to other alternate explanations, or why the list of things you say are wrong. You will not listen to reason, and you will never admit to being wrong. You are even endangering the health of others with your uneducated advice.

    You have a closed mind, therefore there is no reason to care about what you think.

    Really, take up a new hobby. Try garden therapy.

  91. Harriet..sorry…I also have the right to say (freedom/speech) what I believe, that means sharing it..in a free country anyway..so far..anyway.

    “and we are concerned that if you spread your views to others, some of them might waste their time with ineffective treatments instead of using those that are proven effective.”

    first, millions are already doing that and finding other ‘placebos’ that work for them too…and she went 9 years (wasting her time and suffering) with “proven effective treatment”..

    And, olive oil and lemon juice.. I’m glad to have heard about it, so that I can look into it for myself if I choose/need to. I like to share it with others for the same reason, for them to look into it..if they choose to.

    While I agree there are dangerous ineffective treatments in alternatives/home remedies…there are also just as much..(seems more), …in conventional treatments. I still believe in freedom of information and let individuals decide.

  92. Ok Chris …just ignore everything I say..you have that right.

  93. nybgrus says:

    Rusti:

    Try actually reading what Dr. Hall wrote. Think about it hard.

    it seems more presumptuous on conventional mds part that they have all the information possible to know.

    Does it seem presumptuous for an astronomer to tell someone the world isn’t flat? We don’t have all the information possible. We never claimed that we did. What we do have is more than enough information to say what we do with pretty reasonable certainty. We do have enough information to be confident that your experiences are true, but your interpretation of them is wrong. That is where you are making your mistake. Until you back up and try and evaluate those facts and understand the most basic principle of the scientific method you will not be able to progress in your thinking. We will continue to seem unreasonable to you because you feel that we should acknowledge your experiences and agree with them. We do acknowledge them, but we cannot agree. We do actually know enough to make that statement, the same way an astronomer knows enough to tell you that the world is actually round.

  94. and, Harriet, what your concern is, over alternative remedies, and people using them on their own, is my hope that doctors will look into, study, take more seriously, rather than trash all of them…so, actually I would go more often to a conventional md for a lot of things, if they used less harming medicines and methods. I’d even tell others to do so.

  95. WilliamLawrenceUtridge says:

    Putting everything aside…this is a story about a testimony of a pharmaceutical sales rep…

    Really? Are you sure? Anybody can write a blog. We’re supposed to give this anecdote more credibility because they claim to be a pharma rep? Why? I’m will also note:

    - I couldn’t out why the person said they were taking levaquin in the first place
    - this person attributes “chemical sensitivities” and “food intolerances”, both of which are favoured quack “diagnoses” because they are vague, have no objective tests, and you can attribute nearly any symptom to them.

    Credulous idiots love them because it explains their symptoms and gives an illusion of control. Quacks love them because it gives them a reason to keep you handing over those sweet, sweet consultation fees.

    I don’t know what you prescribe, just wanted to ask if any of you would consider the real danger of at least some meds. and reconsider prescribing any.

    What doctor doesn’t consider the dangers of the medications they prescribe? What about the danger of the condition the medication is treating? Are you aware of any doctor that just hands out Cipro for a sniffle? And if so, have you reported them for professional misconduct?

    and, WLU.. so she was suffering for 9 years..that’s 9 YEARS..and now she has relief just so happening with the olive oil and lemon juice? …and this was on ehow.com

    http://www.ehow.com/how_5087458_treat-lemon-juice-olive-oil.html

    Oh, well, e-how. They don’t let just anyone write an article! Oh, hold on, yes they do. The author of that post also does not appear to have any training in medicine or research. They have an undergraduate degree in the humanities (like a lot of the arrogantly ignorant who think all opinions are equal) and a JD – but work as a school teacher and lawyer.

    But surely they vet the content to ensure it’s factually accurate, and not dangerous! Oh, hold on, no they don’t.

    http://digitalethics.org/2011/09/28/essay-the-rise-of-the-content-mill/

    http://www.ehow.com/faq-ehow.html#q69

    So we have another unqualified person dispensing untrustworthy advice on a website that doesn’t vet the the quality or factual accuracy of the information – but somehow we’re supposed to believe it? Why? Would you let a Professor of Literature fix your car? Or a stockboy rewire your house? But you’ll hand over your kidney health to a schoolteacher with a law degree? Would you let a doctor act as your lawyer if you’re charged with manslaughter?

    While how-to advice from amateurs can be useful (or at least might be harmless) for things like gardening, painting and cooking, it’s often downright dangerous for medical issues. Kidney stones can lead to kidney damage, including acute unilateral obstructive uropathy, which can lead to kidney failure – not to mention massive, unnecessary pain.

    These are the possible consequences of your bad advice. There’s a reason anecdotal evidence is not trusted by scientists as anything but hypothesis-generating, it’s too easy to distort. In extreme cases you’ll never hear of negative outcomes because people die. If I try the Gonzalez regimen and die, the only way it’ll reach the world at large is if family or friends take the time to publicize it. For instance, have a look at What’s the Harm’s page for vitamin megadosage. Keep in mind, these are only the people who have some sort of external corroboration, there are doubtless more out there who didn’t make the news or Quackwatch.

    So again, your arrogance in your ignorance can cause harm – death, organ failure and unnecessary suffering.

  96. weing says:

    “it seems more presumptuous on conventional mds part that they have all the information possible to know.”

    And it’s not presumptuous on your part that you know better than MDs do? And that you know what information they have? And that they actually think they have all the information possible to know?

  97. Harriet..I did include a Comment on What’s the Harm Rethink..with the link, on my site. I think I explained my stand as honest as I could.

    http://gethealthybehappy.yolasite.com/comments-and-new-findings/what-s-the-harm-rethink

Comments are closed.