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126 thoughts on “What does “anti-vaccine” really mean?

  1. Calli Arcale says:

    You’re the one who came up with the word “mandatory”, not me and now you’re DENYING the fact that “mandatory” is synonymous with “prerequisite”.

    You are hilarious, Th1Th2. I have never before seen someone so dedicated to digging themselves into a hole. “Prerequisite” is not a perfect synonym for “mandatory”. I know you have difficulty with analogies, so let’s see how you do with hypothetical examples from the place where the word “prerequisite” is most commonly (and rigidly) used: univeristies.

    “The prerequisites for French 201 include French 101 or at least a B- grade on French placement testing.”

    French 101 is not mandatory, provided the student has achieved a B- grade on French placement testing. This is similar to your quote above, which indicated that infection with vaccine-strain varicella or wild-type varicella was a prerequisite. Not mandatory.

    I suppose educating you on the subject of boolean logic (the crucial word “or”) is too much.

    You’re the one who’s confused. I never said nor claimed the body to be “totally invulnerable”.

    True; that’s merely the impression you give, filtered through the dense nebula of bafflement with which you surround yourself. What you actual believe is not something I really can know. It’s not like you make much effort to reveal it. Given that you take refuge in looking like an idiot to avoid “losing” an argument, I imagine you recognize a strategic value to not revealing one’s true position. It does render your arguments rather pointless, though. All anyone can hope to get out of you is entertainment. Perhaps that’s really all you’re here for as well.

    You do, however, seem to spend an awful lot of effort suggesting that only doing bad things can get a person infected. You seem to believe that only actual action can render a person infected. No one can be guiltlessly infected, as you elaborate on here:

    People deserve every infection possible when they let themselves exposed.

    To you, evidently, it about what people *deserve*. Though, I have to wonder — if you think one gets what they deserve by being exposed to a highly contagious disease, why do you not endorse the hermit lifestyle? You’ve previously acted as if vaccines were unnecessary, because the innate immune system would protect the patients. Now, you state that if a person lets themselves be exposed, they deserve to get sick, which suggests you feel people have a responsibility to avoid exposure, which in turn suggests you actually think very little of the innate immune system.

    Impressive. Most people take longer to contradict themselves.

    And how many more did you infect post-eruption?

    It’s impossible to be certain, but as I was quarantined for 14 days, probably no one. (I do remember going out with my mom on errands a couple of times, though she made me stay in the car. It was an incredibly boring couple of weeks.)

  2. Th1Th2 says:

    Calli Arcale,

    This is really getting embarrassing. Below are the original statements I have cited earlier (emphasis mine). What in Grimms’ world do you not understand?

    1. A primary infection with EITHER wild-type OR vaccine-type varicella-zoster virus is a prerequisite for herpes zoster.

    2. Before zoster can develop, a primary infection with EITHER wild-type OR vaccine-type varicella–zoster virus must occur.

    3. Prior infection with VZV, EITHER with wild-type OR vaccine virus, is a prerequisite for developing HZ.

    ALL ROADS LEAD TO ROME. Do you know what that means? It means that there are many different ways or alternatives to reach the same outcome or destination. To travel on two paths is NOT mandatory, one is enough and that is a prerequisite, that is, if you want to go to Rome.

    In the clinical setting:
    It is NOT mandatory to vaccinate a child with active varicella infection because it is ridiculous and unnecessary to RE-INFECT an already infected child. In your example, there’s no need to take French 101 because the student has already achieved a B- grade on French placement testing. But whichever way a person takes will lead to the same end result: HERPES ZOSTER a.k.a FRENCH 201

    When are you going to give it up?

  3. rork says:

    By responding (windriven, Calli, others) you are horribly degrading the comments sections. Stop it! Who cares if you are right, if the debates are pointless and the cost this high?

  4. Calli Arcale says:

    WOOHOO!!! Th1Th2 has understood an example! He/she has even acknowledged that indeed, vaccine-strain varicella is NOT mandatory for shingles later in life! He/she even used an *analogy*! (Paths to Rome.)

    All this so he/she could grasp why I said “yes” earlier. To date, I am not aware of any cases of shingles which resulted from the vaccine itself.

    So, now that we’ve got that out of the way — what’s your point? Do you have one?

    It is NOT mandatory to vaccinate a child with active varicella infection because it is ridiculous and unnecessary to RE-INFECT an already infected child.

    Well, duh. Who’s ever suggested vaccinating a kid with an active case of chickenpox? (Or, for that matter, even bringing the kid into the clinic? I think most doctors, rather than vaccinate such a child, would kick you out on your butt for bringing such a contagious child into their waiting room.)

    But whichever way a person takes will lead to the same end result: HERPES ZOSTER a.k.a FRENCH 201

    *sigh* And here, you were doing so well. Now you have confused “prerequisite” for “predestination”.

    If a person takes French 101, this does not commit them to taking French 201. In fact, I suspect taking the placement exam is a far better predictor of whether or not they will take French 201, since it indicates some sort of desire for the class, whereas French 101 may be taken merely to satisfy the foreign language requirement for graduation and not to actually master the tongue.

    Not all of those who suffer symptomatic chickenpox will later develop shingles. I am not aware of any cases of shingles resulting from the vaccine itself, though I am aware that widespread use of the vaccine will cause an increase in shingles cases, by decreasing environmental exposure to wild varicella and thus reducing natural retraining of the immune system.

  5. Th1Th2 says:

    “Now, you state that if a person lets themselves be exposed, they deserve to get sick, which suggests you feel people have a responsibility to avoid exposure, which in turn suggests you actually think very little of the innate immune system.”

    Because there are many uninformed parents who lack the understanding on the science behind immunology and the nature of infectious diseases. As David Gorski writes, “because they think that “natural” is always better to the point of thinking that it’s better to get a vaccine-preventable disease in order to achieve immunity than to vaccinate against it,”. This, concomitant with Modern Medicine’s failed concept of vaccination, lead to the continuity of the chain of infection. No immunity is being offered by the two options whatsoever, natural or vaccination, except for promoting infection and you’re a testament to it. Our innate system is the most dominant protective barrier in the human body but will also fail in the hands of the uninformed. ALL ROADS LEAD TO ROME, as they say, given the two options.

  6. Th1Th2 says:

    Calli Arcale,

    “WOOHOO!!! Th1Th2 has understood an example! He/she has even acknowledged that indeed, vaccine-strain varicella is NOT mandatory for shingles later in life! He/she even used an *analogy*! (Paths to Rome.)”

    You misunderstood. Vaccine-strain varicella is NOT mandatory for shingles later in life, IFFFFFFFFF you’ve had history of previous chicken pox! You don’t have to be re-infected twice to qualify for herpes zoster. But since you’re a pro-vax, what you’re doing is actually mandating the people to receive VZV –which is the etiologic agent and a PREREQUISITE for both varicella and herpes zoster. You have been infected with VZV twice because you thought you’re immuned. It’s because you’re crazy and uninformed, that’s why.

    “So, now that we’ve got that out of the way — what’s your point? Do you have one?”

    You are still clueless.

    “If a person takes French 101, this does not commit them to taking French 201.”

    You’re just making up stupid stories. Now you’re self-contradicting with what you have said that French 101 without the B-grade is a mandatory for French 201. Take another course, French does not fit you.

    “I am not aware of any cases of shingles resulting from the vaccine itself”

    Because you are uninformed.

  7. Th1Th2 says:

    Calli Arcale,

    “Well, duh. Who’s ever suggested vaccinating a kid with an active case of chickenpox? (Or, for that matter, even bringing the kid into the clinic? I think most doctors, rather than vaccinate such a child, would kick you out on your butt for bringing such a contagious child into their waiting room.)”

    Who’s ever suggested that you babysit kids you knew had active varicella infection? Oh I see, so you thought you’re invulnerable to chicken pox since you had it in the past. Good grief. Do you ever believe in RE-INFECTION?

  8. Th1Th2 says:

    “(Or, for that matter, even bringing the kid into the clinic? I think most doctors, rather than vaccinate such a child, would kick you out on your butt for bringing such a contagious child into their waiting room.)”

    Oh please if I may also kick the butts of these recently VZV-vaccinated if they don’t keep their distance from the naive.

  9. dedicated lurker says:

    How do you know someone’s infected in the first place, though? Or are you relying on them to stay away from you? I’ll even humor you here and include the recently vaccinated as well as those with a currently asymptomatic varicella infection.

  10. windriven says:

    @rork

    Yes, I agree. I really, really regret having engaged the Thing. I don’t intend to repeat my error.

  11. Calli Arcale says:

    *big grin*

    I see I got Th1Th2 rather upset — four whole posts to reply to my one. I am amused that after briefly demonstrating the ability to not only understand an analogy but even to formulate one, he/she immediately collapsed again.

    “If a person takes French 101, this does not commit them to taking French 201.”

    You’re just making up stupid stories. Now you’re self-contradicting with what you have said that French 101 without the B-grade is a mandatory for French 201. Take another course, French does not fit you.

    You cannot possibly be so stupid as to not understand this. Clearly, you have again decided it was better to look stupid than to risk acknowledging that your citations did not support your case. Really, your commitment is impressive. Pointless, but impressive.

    But I don’t really get any pleasure out of tormenting you, and having provoked you enough to get you to reply four consecutive times to a single post, clearly I have taken it too far. I’ll stop now.

  12. Th1Th2 says:

    Calli Arcale,

    “You cannot possibly be so stupid as to not understand this.”

    It is hard to argue with a Germ Theory denialist. It is really hard for them to swallow their own medicine and they hate it when they are fried in their own fat. You adamantly denied the fact that the VZV in varicella vaccine can cause HZ and instead you go around beating the bush.

  13. windriven says:

    @Calli Arcale

    Which Bush were you beating? Certainly not Barbara.

  14. Th1Th2 says:

    dedicated lurker,

    “How do you know someone’s infected in the first place, though?”

    You have to ask, do these people know they are infectious and contagious? And at what point are they considered contagious? Do they take full responsibility to not spread the infection to others? Or are they really reckless and uninformed?

    Or are you relying on them to stay away from you?

    Recently vaccinated kids should be isolated by their parents from the susceptible group because they are contagious. Others should not be calling for pox parties.

    “I’ll even humor you here and include the recently vaccinated as well as those with a currently asymptomatic varicella infection.”

    There’s no question regarding the recently vaccinated for they are contagious. The majority of cases with chicken pox after primary exposure, either with WT or vaccine-type VZV, are clinically apparent and symptomatic even with non-specific symptoms.

  15. Th1Th2 says:

    Calli Arcale,

    “I am aware that widespread use of the vaccine will cause an increase in shingles cases, by decreasing environmental exposure to wild varicella and thus reducing natural retraining of the immune system.”

    The immune system of the VZV-vaccinated does not need to be “retrained”(in medicine, it’s called re-infection) for they already got infected with VZV from the moment they were inoculated. Adding more insult to injury is NOT good especially to children.

    Widespread varicella vaccination only replaces the natural way (natural infection) of acquiring VZV. It is very ‘convenient and effective’ and guaranteed you’re getting the right stuff. This, coupled with some ignorant pro-pox moms, will result to a more synergistic effect in increasing the likelihood of chicken pox and shingles.

    All roads lead to Rome. But you can always choose the lesser evil. But try not to infect others. It’s very unethical.

    Smart people know neither one of them is an option.

  16. dedicated lurker says:

    Thing – most people don’t know they’re infected in the wild until the spots break out. Before that they can still spread the disease. How do you stay away from them?

  17. Th1Th2 says:

    dedicated lurker,

    “Thing – most people don’t know they’re infected in the wild until the spots break out. Before that they can still spread the disease. How do you stay away from them?”

    Early signs and symptoms of chicken pox are non-specific and can be manifested as flu-like symptoms, mild cough, and rhinorrhea (pre-eruptive stage) hence respiratory precaution is a standard precaution in dealing with anyone who coughs, sneezes, etc because the VZV virions appear in the respiratory secretions before the skin of a varicella-infected individual. If I you can’t stay away, then it would be better to shield yourself.

    The problem lies for both the infecting individual and the susceptible as they lack the knowledge regarding basic hygiene.

    Recently VZV-vaccinated person should ought to know that they are contagious following inoculation unless they act like some kind of Germ Theory denialists, then it’s useless to argue. I don’t want to get infected you know.

  18. lillym says:

    I didn’t have any flu like symptoms. No cough, no sneezing, no feeling down.

    I felt fine and probably exposed a few hundred people because I had no idea I had been exposed to chicken pox much less that I had it.

  19. Th1Th2 says:

    I doubt it’s chicken pox.

  20. lillym says:

    First of all I was talking about the past so you should be talking in the past tense.

    But it was the chicken pox. I have scars on my face, arm, and shoulder from where I scratched them hard.

    It was the chicken pox, I didn’t know I was exposed to it because no one I knew had it. Which means, I was exposed to it by a stranger.

  21. Chris says:

    lillym, trolls tend to starve if you don’t feed them. Please ignore it.

  22. Harriet Hall says:

    Th1Th2 is good for one thing: comic relief. True believers will always find an “out.” A psychiatric patient believed he was dead. They asked him if dead men bleed. He said no. They showed him that he was bleeding. He said, “By golly, I guess dead men DO bleed.”

  23. Th1Th2 says:

    lillym,

    Have you been exposed to chicken pox as a child?

  24. Joe says:

    I hate to feed the troll; but I gotta say that my younger brother has shingles today. It is not pleasant. I’ll be getting the vaccine.

  25. Th1Th2 says:

    Joe,

    Sure you can get the vaccine and you’ll qualify for shingles.

  26. Th1Th2 says:

    Harriet Hall,

    Provax are the real ‘psychos’. They claim to be the strong proponents of the Germ Theory. They strongly believe that VZV is the pathogen that causes chicken pox and shingles. But when it comes to VZV-containing vaccines, they repudiate everything.

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